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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
The 1/1/1s entire point is to hit a timing where Protoss does not safely have any method of dealing with the marine. THIS is why it works. Marine's from a cost stand point beat every unit the Protoss army has except high templar and collosus. The way Protoss fights on even ground before collosus or high templar is with kiting stalkers or forcefields . Another stalling for high templar or collosus method is double upgrades zealots. Banshee, seige tanks, and ravens entire purpose is to nullify these methods, and the timing of the attack comes at time before the high templar, collosus, or the double upgrades can safely be taken. The timing can be avoided if you go Nexus first or 1 gate expand, both risky builds.
Notice after the battle of every 1/1/1, its always the marines that stay alive at the end. If the marines die in the battle somehow, but the tanks or banshees are the ones left alive, then Protoss will pull through.
The 1/1/1 is so varied. There is the standard raven, banshee, tank, marine. There is a thor version, which uses thors to nullify the force fields instead of tanks, and in case your opponent goes phoenix. There is a viking version, in case your opponent goes void rays. There is a cloak version in case your opponent uses non robo, non phoenix attempts to counter. There is a hellion version, in case your opponent gets nothing but chargelots. There is a bunker version, which is just the regular one, but instead of seeking to kill you just build bunkres and contain. While expanding. 1/1/1 has a lot of spare minerals at time of attack. This is also why a pull half your SCV version works. Kiwi did engage way too early against Puma, but he still had to defend for a couple more minutes, because there is still plenty of minerals left for Puma. This is why a second followup attack is possible. Because there are lot of spare minerals in the build. Notice the marine is the constant throughout all the versions. See the scary thing about the 1/1/1, is that Protoss have a hard time scouting it, and the Terran does not have a hard time scouting the Protoss. Terran can adjust, Protoss has to blind counter. Although, thats not the completely true, I did notice Kiwi's earlier robo opener he goes to, scouts it much earlier than other protoss openers.
The immortal change and the sentry guardian shield does help slightly, but what will end up happening is the 1/1/1 will just change composition around. If the immortal buff changes it, then it'll become a more banshee/raven mix. If the sentry guardian shield aoe changes the 1/1/1, it might become a more thors based composition instead of tanks.
Honestly, for Protoss and for Terran, I think one should expect nerfs and or buffs to a bunch of stuff because Blizzard will not nerf the marine. If you the Protoss player finds a way to shorten the high templar, collosus, or double upgrade +critical amount of zealots timing, safely without the need of early expansion like nexus first or 1 gate nexus, you will have beaten the 1/1/1. If you can find a way to deal with the marine, that isnt affected by banshee, raven, or seige tank, and its ensuing followup, you will have found a method to beat the 1/1/1
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On August 28 2011 18:59 Olsson wrote:
I can agree with 1/1/1 is broken and needs to be fixed if 4base protoss gets fixed.
Yeah man, whenever Protoss get to 4 bases in the GSL, they always win. Such overpowered bullshit.
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On August 28 2011 18:34 pretensile wrote:
I cite this game as a case study in 1-1-1 defense a lot, because I've never seen the first push defended so well, though MKP surely aided him with his errors (losing his first banshee, engaging about as badly as possible in the choke, never sieging up, allowing Puzzle's observer to follow his army the whole time). But it didn't seem to do much good, because MKP simply rolled him with the second push.
Puzzle lost quite a lot of units (1 sentry, 3 immortals, ~6 stalkers) unnecessarily when he sniped those tanks on the ramp which put him in a 12 supply deficit. Ideally he should have only moved his immortals forward, sniped those and gone back and wait for the 2nd push to come. Puzzle tried to contain MKP, over-committed and lost most of his army for 3 tanks and some marines. This game doesn't show any imbalance whatsoever. All it does is showing that marines are really really good against immortal/stalker compositions.
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On August 28 2011 18:34 pretensile wrote:For posterity, I'd like to cite Puzzle vs. MarinekingPrime on Xel'Naga Caverns in FXO KOTH #3 again, viewable here. Action starts at the 11:00 mark in the video, the first push comes at around 13:00. This is when I first having serious doubts about whether 1-1-1 was actually defensible in the current metagame. Puzzle defends the first push magnificently... only to crumble badly against the second push. Basically everything that could possibly go wrong for MKP and go right for Puzzle does. Puzzle goes 2 gate robo expand, send an observer and immediately scouts the 1-1-1 coming from MKP. He cancels the nexus smartly. MKP's first banshee (with cloak, which proves to be ineffectual in the game) does a small amount of damage but is taken down. Puzzle pre-emptively splits and positions his army in a nice concave, forcing MKP to engage poorly at the choke with destructible rocks in the middle of the map -- his army gets split perfectly with nearly picture-perfect force fields, and Puzzle defends with minimal losses while destroying nearly all of MKP's army and the almost-twenty SCVs he pulled. Puzzle pressures and snipes a few siege tanks on the ramp for good measure before pulling back and taking his nat again, but MKP simply moves out at the 15 min mark once more... this time with another two dozen SCVs for good measure. Puzzle futilely tries to engage at the destructible rocks choke once more but doesn't nearly have enough army or sentries to pull off the miracle he did the first time around. His army gets crushed and he calls the gg. I cite this game as a case study in 1-1-1 defense a lot, because I've never seen the first push defended so well, though MKP surely aided him with his errors (losing his first banshee, engaging about as badly as possible in the choke, never sieging up, allowing Puzzle's observer to follow his army the whole time). But it didn't seem to do much good, because MKP simply rolled him with the second push.
Hahaha, thanks for that man, that's absolutely hilarious. 1 base Protoss gets the best possible engagement against a 1 base Terran TWICE, this is after denying cloak harass and getting a free banshee. The push with 20 scvs is crushed. Result? Protoss and Terran even in supply, even in workers. I challenge anyone to watch this game and tell me that this build isn't overpowered.
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The fact that 1-1-1 has been talked about so much and that no one build outright beats it should say something.The point of all ins are to be strong if your opponent is unprepared or greedy. This build is able to be executed even when u know it is coming and even has a transition into a second scv marine all in to finish a Protoss off if armys were traded.
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On August 28 2011 19:00 Cuiu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 18:02 Binabik wrote:
You cannot scout with a Stalker, because when you run into a Marauder it is auto-lose.
And if Terran went for a 1Rax FE or a NoGasFe you basically lost, because he'll build Marines only which will defend your StarGate without any problems and then there'll be a stim-timing which is going to kill you.
wow...can i say in some way that you are rly bad @sc2 and stop write stuff without to offend you? what do you mean with "if terran went for a 1rax fe or no gas fe"? if a terran goes for a no gas fe he has no fucking gas, you scout that with your probe and a 1rax fe is basically a no gas fe if you mean techlab/marauder expand than yeah your stupid no micro micro scouting Stalker dies maybe a painful dead but he shows you where his gas is 100/25marauder 50/25 techlab 50/50 cs hey wow thats thats thats 100gas wow.
The only map where you can 100% scout your opponent with a 9 scout is Xel'naga. How are you ever going to know about his gas if he has a full wall-in with a Marine down the ramp?
1 Rax Fe = TechLab expand with either a MarauderPush or a fast Reaper.
How are you going to micro against someone who has taken the WatchTower and has a unit which only needs to hit you once, because slow means that your Stalker can't run away anymore?
ps: Binabik/912, #1 Masters Protoss in EU here, I don't know about your ranking... And because I've never hit you on ladder that means that you are not in Top500, so you shouldn't insult me lol
And perhaps you missed it, but my post was a response to a Robo+StarGate 1base build, which will never work because there won't be any units to handle the Marines.
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On August 28 2011 20:54 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 18:34 pretensile wrote:
I cite this game as a case study in 1-1-1 defense a lot, because I've never seen the first push defended so well, though MKP surely aided him with his errors (losing his first banshee, engaging about as badly as possible in the choke, never sieging up, allowing Puzzle's observer to follow his army the whole time). But it didn't seem to do much good, because MKP simply rolled him with the second push. Puzzle lost quite a lot of units (1 sentry, 3 immortals, ~6 stalkers) unnecessarily when he sniped those tanks on the ramp which put him in a 12 supply deficit. Ideally he should have only moved his immortals forward, sniped those and gone back and wait for the 2nd push to come. Puzzle tried to contain MKP, over-committed and lost most of his army for 3 tanks and some marines. This game doesn't show any imbalance whatsoever. All it does is showing that marines are really really good against immortal/stalker compositions.
To be fair, you can do the math for the units lost in the followup pressure Puzzle did. MKP lost 3 siege tanks, 2 banshees, 2 SCVs, and at least 7 marines: 1200/575 in resources. Puzzle lost 3 immortals, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers, and a zealot: 1700/800 in resources. We'll be kind and round up and say the difference is roughly 5 stalkers' worth of resources, or 3 stalkers and an immortal. You can't look at the final engagement and honestly say Puzzle would have held with an additional 5 stalkers, or 3 stalkers and an immortal.
And something kooky is going on for both the food count and worker count to be so equal after Puzzle's great hold, which was extremely one-sided in his favor.
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Just held off this build today with a combination of charge lots and phoenix's. This was a diamond level match and my opponent wasn't the best. However that was the first time I attempted this build and my timings weren't the most precise ever. I think with practice the phoenix/charge lot is the best option for defense, as the phoenix's will take out the banshees then be able still be useful to lift up tanks. Especially good when you have 3-5 sentry's to throw up guardian shield to lower the damage of the marines and tank.
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I feel so sad watching Pro level PvT. I wish as spectator I could get some... diversity... Terran risking to loose, tend to do the 111... Just watching Pro level statistics of 111 feels like Toss have to avoid Terrans to win a Tournament atm...
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Just nerf the banshee, it really doesn't need to be as good as it is.
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Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed.
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On August 29 2011 02:14 Swad1000 wrote:
Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed.
Yep, he should have just gone bio instead his bio is stronger.
But there are still plenty of examples of 1-1-1 being hold able that were well executed.
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On August 29 2011 02:18 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 02:14 Swad1000 wrote:
Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed. But there are still plenty of examples of 1-1-1 being hold able that were well executed.
Really? Would you be so kind to show us them? Because a thread doesn't reach 136 pages when this well executed 1-1-1 build can be held off so easily. Especially when the main problem is that the terran player has to make a mistake to allow the protoss to win, well executed 1-1-1s are a major problem
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On August 29 2011 02:14 Swad1000 wrote:
Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed.
Just to elaborate on this because people will probably ask why:
-Getting cloak and doing very little with it
-Supply blocked for 30secs at 44/44
-it was a very late attack
-Once he attacked, his units were attacking nexus whilst Huk was killing his army
-Random tank in front of his army dies without even shooting once
-Banshee killing probes in battle.
-Pdd immensely late(if i remember correct).
-No siege mode.
I actually hope terrans do 1/1/1 in matches now because I want to see a decently executed 1/1/1 being held off. If I see even 1 replay of someone holding it off ill be happy enough but as of yet, I have not seen a single person.
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On August 29 2011 02:14 Swad1000 wrote:
Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed.
Nobody should ever use a Huk game to prove a game anyways, as you shouldn't need to be wayyy better at controlling your units than your opponent to defend a push. /fanboyism off
@The topic: I think DeMuslim summarized it well in his interview after his game against Trickster. The problem is not that there is no counter to the 1/1/1, but that the Protoss needs to play at least 2x better than his opponent to only defend it. You need to do everything good about positionning, unit composition, unit control, and if you do only 1 mistake you are doomed. The strategy is very well counterable if you do everything perfectly, but it's unfair for the Protoss player.
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On August 29 2011 02:24 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 02:14 Swad1000 wrote:
Please nobody try and use the Huk/Trimaster game as a defense of that 3-1-1 push.
It was terribly executed. Just to elaborate on this because people will probably ask why: -Getting cloak and doing very little with it -Supply blocked for 30secs at 44/44 -it was a very late attack -Once he attacked, his units were attacking nexus whilst Huk was killing his army -Random tank in front of his army dies without even shooting once -Banshee killing probes in battle. -Pdd immensely late(if i remember correct). -No siege mode.
In addition:
-Bad positioning that let HuK get all his Zealots in to attack
-Doesn't try for a second all-in later
Really abysmal play from Trimaster. Needs to practice the best build in TvP more. He did much better earlier in the series.
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Extreme hypothetical but, you guys will see what I'm saying.
So assuming 1/1/1 is really good, and that Protoss have developed a counter for it. But lets say the counter only works 50% of the time. So should terran go 1/1/1, he'll have a 50% winrate against a protoss that'll counter it really well.
Now, lets say you're someone of MVP's caliber, in which if you do play standard/macro style your chance of winning quickly shoots up to 80%, but if you go 1/1/1 your winrate is only 50%. Why take the unnecessary risk of 1/1/1? The only time it would justify you to go 1/1/1 is if you're ahead 3-0 or 3-1 in a bo7, and you want a fast/easy win against protoss.
This is simply the exact same case in PvP for the longest time. In which there would be a 4gate vs 3gate variation, and 4gates almost always won, but eventually pvp got to the point in which 3gate variation could hold off 4gate easily (i'd say around 6-0-70% of the time, not accurate but just from what i've seen). (because protoss figured out how to defend against it). Now we're seeing protoss's shift away from 4gate and into 3gate variation, and into colossus. Its no longer quite as stupid as it once was before.
Protoss just need to figure this stuff out, and eventually this matchup will be balanced again.
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On August 29 2011 02:40 wei2coolman wrote:
This is simply the exact same case in PvP for the longest time. In which there would be a 4gate vs 3gate variation, and 4gates almost always won, but eventually pvp got to the point in which 3gate variation could hold off 4gate easily (i'd say around 6-0-70% of the time, not accurate but just from what i've seen). (because protoss figured out how to defend against it). Now we're seeing protoss's shift away from 4gate and into 3gate variation, and into colossus. Its no longer quite as stupid as it once was before.
Oh, you mean when the warp gate research time was increased and the pylon range was decreased? Why, yes, that patch made the aggressive 4 gate much worse and made builds such as Tyler's 10 gate robo playable...
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On August 29 2011 02:40 wei2coolman wrote:
Extreme hypothetical but, you guys will see what I'm saying.
So assuming 1/1/1 is really good, and that Protoss have developed a counter for it. But lets say the counter only works 50% of the time. So should terran go 1/1/1, he'll have a 50% winrate against a protoss that'll counter it really well.
Now, lets say you're someone of MVP's caliber, in which if you do play standard/macro style your chance of winning quickly shoots up to 80%, but if you go 1/1/1 your winrate is only 50%. Why take the unnecessary risk of 1/1/1? The only time it would justify you to go 1/1/1 is if you're ahead 3-0 or 3-1 in a bo7, and you want a fast/easy win against protoss.
This is simply the exact same case in PvP for the longest time. In which there would be a 4gate vs 3gate variation, and 4gates almost always won, but eventually pvp got to the point in which 3gate variation could hold off 4gate easily (i'd say around 6-0-70% of the time, not accurate but just from what i've seen). (because protoss figured out how to defend against it). Now we're seeing protoss's shift away from 4gate and into 3gate variation, and into colossus. Its no longer quite as stupid as it once was before.
Protoss just need to figure this stuff out, and eventually this matchup will be balanced again.
Unfortunately for Blizzard, even if what you said does happen it is still not all sunshine and rainbows.
In theory, balance should be based around the highest level. Unfortunately, even if the game is really balanced at the highest level if TvP is a 90% winrate at diamond and lower no Protoss players will want to start playing sc2 so Blizzard will lose money and ESPORTS will fail.
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On August 28 2011 23:18 pretensile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 20:54 Ravomat wrote:On August 28 2011 18:34 pretensile wrote:
I cite this game as a case study in 1-1-1 defense a lot, because I've never seen the first push defended so well, though MKP surely aided him with his errors (losing his first banshee, engaging about as badly as possible in the choke, never sieging up, allowing Puzzle's observer to follow his army the whole time). But it didn't seem to do much good, because MKP simply rolled him with the second push. Puzzle lost quite a lot of units (1 sentry, 3 immortals, ~6 stalkers) unnecessarily when he sniped those tanks on the ramp which put him in a 12 supply deficit. Ideally he should have only moved his immortals forward, sniped those and gone back and wait for the 2nd push to come. Puzzle tried to contain MKP, over-committed and lost most of his army for 3 tanks and some marines. This game doesn't show any imbalance whatsoever. All it does is showing that marines are really really good against immortal/stalker compositions. To be fair, you can do the math for the units lost in the followup pressure Puzzle did. MKP lost 3 siege tanks, 2 banshees, 2 SCVs, and at least 7 marines: 1200/575 in resources. Puzzle lost 3 immortals, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers, and a zealot: 1700/800 in resources. We'll be kind and round up and say the difference is roughly 5 stalkers' worth of resources, or 3 stalkers and an immortal. You can't look at the final engagement and honestly say Puzzle would have held with an additional 5 stalkers, or 3 stalkers and an immortal. And something kooky is going on for both the food count and worker count to be so equal after Puzzle's great hold, which was extremely one-sided in his favor.
He wouldn't have held that with 3 more stalkers and an additional immortal, that's right but he had the opportunity to get 2(3) colossus (without range), some additional probes and up to 6 gates out. The second push came approximately 4 minutes after he held the first one. This is enough time to tech up and prepare adequately especially if you crush the push like he did. Instead he stayed on immortal/stalker and threw units carelessly away while expanding. It was clearly not optimal play from Puzzle. We know Protoss needs AoE damage to deal with masses of marines and Puzzle just totally neglected it. Though I think you can do well if you go for 6gate blink but haven't had the chance to go for it.
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EPT
