On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.
He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.
He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.
Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that?
You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left.
Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped.
As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy
I didn't see where Naruto said that but if he did then that was not very smart of him so I'm skeptical if that's his exact quote. If Puma delays that push he just gets flat out crushed. You can't all in into too many immortals and yes there would have been time for colossus if you're discussing adding medvacs. Just look at what Socke did to Select at IEM on a 10 min 1/1/1.
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
It'll never be stomped on by protosses on equal footing with their terran opponents. To defend, you need perfect forcefields, a perfect engagement, with perfect spreading, preferably catching them unsieged. To execute, you need to build units, move units, siege tanks. Left unchecked, there will always be a disparity between how easy it is to use and how hard it is to hold off. While yes, at the tip-top level it may eventually be figured out, the lower leagues will suffer because they will not be able to defend as well as the tip-top pros, while the push still remains easy to do at the lower leagues.
I may be wrong, but didn't Kiwi engage the army in a choke between the gold destructible rocks and the big hole in the middle? Wasn't that poor positioning for the zealots to engage?
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.
He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.
He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.
Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that?
You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left.
Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped.
As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy
I didn't see where Naruto said that but if he did then that was not very smart of him so I'm skeptical if that's his exact quote. If Puma delays that push he just gets flat out crushed. You can't all in into too many immortals and yes there would have been time for colossus if you're discussing adding medvacs. Just look at what Socke did to Select at IEM on a 10 min 1/1/1.
And how in the world is it possible to Tech to Colossus if Puma just wants to make a few Medivacs? Puma already had the Tech there, all he needed to do was stop creating Banshees and make Medivacs, he didn't even need a lot, maybe 2-3.
Where does he get the money for that? How in the world can he even think about making Colossus at any time? Even Charge for Zealots at that point isn't even an option, Kiwi just doesn't have the economy
When the Marine count gets too high there is no way to deal with it without AOE, FF's become worse and worse as the game goes on as the bigger the Marine ball gets the less and less it actually does--you eventually just can't cup the entire ball, it isn't possible and as I said before Immortals get worse when the Marine count gets higher as it becomes harder to get to the tanks. When there are 20+ Marines, sometimes it isn't even possible, thier only purpose becomes to take the initial tank hits before disintegrating to marines
When you play on one base, there are two timers. The first is to make sure you have enough to survive the initial push and the second is to make something happen before Terran starts adding in Medivacs as your army gets comparatively worse if you can't get AOE.
As IdrA was saying in his interview, Marines are a Tier 1 Snowball unit
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.
He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.
He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.
Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that?
You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left.
Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped.
As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy
I didn't see where Naruto said that but if he did then that was not very smart of him so I'm skeptical if that's his exact quote. If Puma delays that push he just gets flat out crushed. You can't all in into too many immortals and yes there would have been time for colossus if you're discussing adding medvacs. Just look at what Socke did to Select at IEM on a 10 min 1/1/1.
It's a bit different depending on the response. Since they were both on 1 base, it could only get better for terran because they have mules. If protoss chooses to tech to collosus then he will lose to an earlier push. If protoss makes immortals, it doesn't really matter because marine/medivac doesn't really care about immortals and that was predominantly what Naruto was suggesting Puma get.
This is why gisado says that you have to defend it off of an expansion so that you can get more income than the terran eventually. If it's 1 base vs 1 base you have to fight with less and time is on Terran's side because they have mules.
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
lol those are about as good forcefields you can get, getting half the marines
you can't be serious to expect a full forcefield cup on marines while there are tanks and banshees in the mix - forcefield range is NOT far
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.
He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.
He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.
Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that?
You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left.
Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped.
As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy
This is true... terrans on one base still receive 25% more minerals than protoss with the same amount of workers. You'd need to chronoboost workers to reduce the gap, but even then, large numbers of well upgraded marines beat zealots even with flanks, (cost wise) and more workers collide more than mules and scvs...
I'm at a loss. Bring back the soul hunter lol!
edit: in all seriousness, there are a lot of hidden variables. I think people need to do some testing to figure out how much a terran can have at your base at the times listed in the OP, and then try to create an army with the resources in the screenshots to defend against it.
What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
I've yet to see a single 1base build that looks even remotely solid at holding this push, you see a few come up, like the one base Colossus, One base Chargelot/Phoenix, but then they die out as Terran figure out how to beat them with 1-1-1 as well.
The way I've seen Puzzle deal with it is by going 1gate Robo expand into Gateway/Stargate once he scouts the Terran. It does seem somewhat risky as 1gate Robo expand isn't very safe and the very first push seems to be such a nightmare to hold off as you lack some supply compared to other openers and TBH, I really think the only reason Puzzle does it so well is because he has such high APM, but above all you NEED that expansion and you need to be able to keep it alive as you can't keep up with the Terran on a single base.
cArn was mentioning it in the LR thread that the expansion is needed as it puts pressure on the Terran make something happen, without an expansion Terran can really take their time with the push and Protoss is the one that has to make something happen.
IMO, whether or not this build gets figured out will depend on Protoss being able to figure out a way to expand easier whilst getting scouting/detection because there really doesn't seem to be a one base answer to it
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
so what if they decided to pull back. What are you gonna do next? Don't tell me you gonna drop anyway to attack cuz marines never stay far away from the tanks, they know tanks deal the damage to building and protoss army. Marine is the executing unit. Banshee get the vision for tanks. When your zealots, stalkers move in, they don't have immortals to take extra damages from the tanks, and tanks would melt them easily, when you drop it on top of tanks and marines, the marines kill immortals in like 2 secs.
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
so what if they decided to pull back. What are you gonna do next? Don't tell me you gonna drop anyway to attack cuz marines never stay far away from the tanks, they know tanks deal the damage to building and protoss army. Marine is the executing unit. Banshee get the vision for tanks. When your zealots, stalkers move in, they don't have immortals to take extra damages from the tanks, and tanks would melt them easily, when you drop it on top of tanks and marines, the marines kill immortals in like 2 secs.
Well first of all, you drop behind the tanks not right on top. And I mentioned that if he pulls back the marines to kill your immortals, youre already pushing in to him, so push while hes moving the marines back not attacking. ALSO it's just a suggestion, and I personally despise the 111, as I am too a protoss ;D
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
so what if they decided to pull back. What are you gonna do next? Don't tell me you gonna drop anyway to attack cuz marines never stay far away from the tanks, they know tanks deal the damage to building and protoss army. Marine is the executing unit. Banshee get the vision for tanks. When your zealots, stalkers move in, they don't have immortals to take extra damages from the tanks, and tanks would melt them easily, when you drop it on top of tanks and marines, the marines kill immortals in like 2 secs.
Well first of all, you drop behind the tanks not right on top. And I mentioned that if he pulls back the marines to kill your immortals, youre already pushing in to him, so push while hes moving the marines back not attacking. ALSO it's just a suggestion, and I personally despise the 111, as I am too a protoss ;D
Doesn't matter, banshee and tanks attack your army while marines don't have to move so far away from tanks cuz immortals range right now is just 5, just +1 more than marines.
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
so what if they decided to pull back. What are you gonna do next? Don't tell me you gonna drop anyway to attack cuz marines never stay far away from the tanks, they know tanks deal the damage to building and protoss army. Marine is the executing unit. Banshee get the vision for tanks. When your zealots, stalkers move in, they don't have immortals to take extra damages from the tanks, and tanks would melt them easily, when you drop it on top of tanks and marines, the marines kill immortals in like 2 secs.
Well first of all, you drop behind the tanks not right on top. And I mentioned that if he pulls back the marines to kill your immortals, youre already pushing in to him, so push while hes moving the marines back not attacking. ALSO it's just a suggestion, and I personally despise the 111, as I am too a protoss ;D
Doesn't matter, banshee and tanks attack your army while marines don't have to move so far away from tanks cuz immortals range right now is just 5, just +1 more than marines.
Marines have 5 range as well btw. Anyway, the way you're talking is as if the protoss doesn't do any damage while this is going on. It'd have to be used for us to know for sure, but I believe this would fare much better because the immortals are actually hitting the tanks, not walking behind sentries/stalkers like idiots.
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
Even if you pull off some bisu-tier warp prism immortal drops, the main problem of 1/1/1 isn't actually tanks. Marines are actually the biggest problem with their huge dps. Tanks and banshee add versatility of the 1/1/1. Tanks make FF hard to pull off due to their range and force the protoss back by slow tank pushing (not to mention their high damage with clumped units). banshee are there for the risk of cloak and high dps/force anti-air units.
On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote: What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely.
Even if you pull off some bisu-tier warp prism immortal drops, the main problem of 1/1/1 isn't actually tanks. Marines are actually the biggest problem with their huge dps. Tanks and banshee add versatility of the 1/1/1. Tanks make FF hard to pull off due to their range and force the protoss back by slow tank pushing (not to mention their high damage with clumped units). banshee are there for the risk of cloak and high dps/force anti-air units.
"Kif, we have a conundrum." I remember seeing the end of SeleCT vs Socke at IEM last week - the one where Socke held SeleCT's 111. Im not sure how he did it, but is that viable to always have a chance to kill the 111? Or did SeleCT fuck up somewhere?
just rewatched the kiwi vs. puma game a few more times (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Raleigh_Red, skip to about 11:11:30)
1. when terran is out in the middle of the map like that is it possible to do a zerg-style pick off reinforcing marines with a few zealots and stalkers as they come down the ramp? it would delay the push (force terran to pull back units to deal with it) or prevent them from building up a larger army.
2. was kiwi's engagement wise (all 4 tanks were sieged when he charged in, he barely touched the three in the back) or should he have kept delaying and backing up? he was doing an amazing job with the phoenix delaying for as long as possible.
3. should you pick up tanks with the phoenix or try to kill the banshees? seems like lifting tanks is the way to go since tanks do much more dps and your zealots will live longer, but kiwi chose to kill the banshees first.
On August 28 2011 16:20 CyanideXN wrote: just rewatched the kiwi vs. puma game a few more times (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Raleigh_Red, skip to about 11:11:30)
1. when terran is out in the middle of the map like that is it possible to do a zerg-style pick off reinforcing marines with a few zealots and stalkers as they come down the ramp? it would delay the push (force terran to pull back units to deal with it) or prevent them from building up a larger army.
2. was kiwi's engagement wise (all 4 tanks were sieged when he charged in, he barely touched the three in the back) or should he have kept delaying and backing up? he was doing an amazing job with the phoenix delaying for as long as possible.
3. should you pick up tanks with the phoenix or try to kill the banshees? seems like lifting tanks is the way to go since tanks do much more dps and your zealots will live longer, but kiwi chose to kill the banshees first.
I think about your third point, picking off the banshees first was a better idea because first of all kiwi had almost no anti-air (sentries) other then the phoenix, and picking up the tanks would cause an aggro effect where the terran would snipe the phoenix, and then win no matter what since there is no anti air. Although that zerg style you're talking about is a good idea.
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.
It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
lol those are about as good forcefields you can get, getting half the marines
you can't be serious to expect a full forcefield cup on marines while there are tanks and banshees in the mix - forcefield range is NOT far
I dunno, whether you blame Kiwi's forcefields or his immortal positioning, his immortals couldn't get to the tanks, and smashing the siegetanks is the key to holding off the push. Once those are down, zealots with some sentry backup can handle marines just fine.
I feel like engaging in the middle there was a poor choice for kiwi, as well as losing so much health on his phoenixes. Why not force the siege, pull back, rinse repeat? He's got like 12 SCVs there, so why didn't kiwi go into time-buying tactics! I THOUGHT that's what kiwi was doing, but then he went and charged in. Shouldn't he have made puma inch his way forward? They even showed the income tab, puma was basically on 1 gas and less mineral income than Kiwi, because he pulled SCVs.
On August 28 2011 16:20 CyanideXN wrote: just rewatched the kiwi vs. puma game a few more times (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Raleigh_Red, skip to about 11:11:30)
1. when terran is out in the middle of the map like that is it possible to do a zerg-style pick off reinforcing marines with a few zealots and stalkers as they come down the ramp? it would delay the push (force terran to pull back units to deal with it) or prevent them from building up a larger army.
2. was kiwi's engagement wise (all 4 tanks were sieged when he charged in, he barely touched the three in the back) or should he have kept delaying and backing up? he was doing an amazing job with the phoenix delaying for as long as possible.
3. should you pick up tanks with the phoenix or try to kill the banshees? seems like lifting tanks is the way to go since tanks do much more dps and your zealots will live longer, but kiwi chose to kill the banshees first.
I think about your third point, picking off the banshees first was a better idea because first of all kiwi had almost no anti-air (sentries) other then the phoenix, and picking up the tanks would cause an aggro effect where the terran would snipe the phoenix, and then win no matter what since there is no anti air. Although that zerg style you're talking about is a good idea.
I dunno, he could warp in a couple stalkers if he cleaned up the rest of the push, or chrono out another phoenix (only 25 sec) - banshee DPS isn't THAT bad. Really feels like the tanks are what makes the push work, even though the marines are the unit that does most of the damage - without tanks, you can just sentry zealot them to hell and back. I don't think kiwi was in a good position to go tank-lifting, though. I think maybe if he was going to do that, he should have pulled back, waited for the unsiege, and then lift tanks while charging in, so he isn't eating the long-range volleys of FOUR siege tanks on all his units. He really just charged into a siege line there. I didn't like that engage at all.
1/1/1 relies heavily on gas doesn't it? Isn't the most logical thing for the toss to do is an early gas steal? This will force the terran to abandon 1/1/1 or go for a late push?
EPT
