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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Leoneri
United States67 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:25 ReignFayth wrote: oh I think these players are those who participate a lot in the strategy section so they get highlighted, such as minigun right? Oh that makes more sense, my fault. | ||
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henreiman
United States407 Posts
The only question is how to balance it. The 6 range on Immortals I think helps (they can hit siege tanks while marine AI attacks elsewhere)? It's going to be really tough to balance one particular all in build without altering the game. | ||
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THEcOnuFUSED
Canada6 Posts
And if you were to take the precaution everygame, any build that expos before 10 minutes would double your income. It is something that players will have to learn to hold through trail and error A slight change here and there to a rather risky build can make it safer and even bait imminently failing aggressive play. | ||
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
even if i tell from the start "i 1/1/1 you" | ||
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Leoneri
United States67 Posts
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
The only two parts of the patch which could affect the 1-1-1 are: 5 second build time increase on barracks; which in my opinion won't have any effect upon the potency of the 1-1-1 because there is such a large timing window where this build wins that a 5 second delay will make no difference. +1 range on immortals; I also think this will have no effect upon the ability of protoss to hold off the 1-1-1, since it seemed that the main problem wasn't that immortals couldn't reach the tanks , but that the immortals melted so fast to the marines. Although the immortals would outrange marines, there will almost definitely be marines INFRONT of the tanks, meaning that they still have to go into marine attack range to kill the tanks. EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point). | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:34 perser84 wrote: well i am a terran and i am quite interrested how toss counter it even if i tell from the start "i 1/1/1 you" If you said that to me right off the bat, I Cannon rush you lol. That counts 1/1/1 pretty hard lol | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:37 CortoMontez wrote: Personally I suspect that patch 1.4 wasn't intended to address the 1-1-1, since Blizzard would have spent a lot of time since the last patch coming up with these ideas, whilst the 1-1-1 issue only came up a few weeks before the PTR notes were released. The only two parts of the patch which could affect the 1-1-1 are: 5 second build time increase on barracks; which in my opinion won't have any effect upon the potency of the 1-1-1 because there is such a large timing window where this build wins that a 5 second delay will make no difference. +1 range on immortals; I also think this will have no effect upon the ability of protoss to hold off the 1-1-1, since it seemed that the main problem wasn't that immortals couldn't reach the tanks , but that the immortals melted so fast to the marines. Although the immortals would outrange marines, there will almost definitely be marines INFRONT of the tanks, meaning that they still have to go into marine attack range to kill the tanks. EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point). sentry also helps with guardian shield vs tank splash. | ||
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Leoneri
United States67 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:39 Orcasgt24 wrote: If you said that to me right off the bat, I Cannon rush you lol. That counts 1/1/1 pretty hard lol Most people seem to be of the opinion that cannon rushing a terran is a bad idea. | ||
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:41 jinorazi wrote: sentry also helps with guardian shield vs tank splash. AFAIK that was a bug fix, and a reduction from 35 damage to 33 damage in a limited area is hardly a significant change. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:43 CortoMontez wrote: AFAIK that was a bug fix, and a reduction from 35 damage to 33 damage in a limited area is hardly a significant change. No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:30 henreiman wrote: I'm a Terran player. Generally I hate the nerds who qq about balance before letting the game simply play out (and 90% of the time someone invents a legitimate counter build). But this build - easily identified early, hard to transition out of - is more than a bit ridiculous. Any build that autowins 80-90% (EVEN WHEN SCOUTED!) of the time isn't balanced, I don't care if it can be stopped. I'm sure with practice the win rate could be cut to 60%, but that's still silly for an easily executable/replicable build. The only question is how to balance it. The 6 range on Immortals I think helps (they can hit siege tanks while marine AI attacks elsewhere)? It's going to be really tough to balance one particular all in build without altering the game. The 6 range immortal does a lot for the immortal but I honestly dont think it will change the 1/1/1 scenario enough for it to be effective. I actually don't believe terran nerfs or protoss buffs are necessary but the best solution is probably a new unit with HoTS similar to the functions of a reaver. We'll see what blizzard decides, because I don't think blizzard will want this to go long enough especially since the win/loss ratio is looking horrendous, not to mention that 78%(if i remember correctly) of koreans polled also believe protoss is the worst race. That is almost 4/5 people. On August 28 2011 13:34 perser84 wrote: well i am a terran and i am quite interrested how toss counter it even if i tell from the start "i 1/1/1 you" There is a counter but it simply doesn't work. Hard counter is 15 nexus, soft counter is 1gate FE(with insane micro). Problem is if you go 15 Nexus/1gate fe, expect some 2 rax all in of some sort which hard counters your 15 nexus. Protoss is basically playing a game of rock paper scissors with terran, except its always the protoss going first. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:37 CortoMontez wrote: EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point). 15 nexus is pretty much a blind counter to the 1/1/1, but it depends on the terran just mindlessly going through with the 1/1/1 instead of building a second barracks, pulling a few scvs and making you cancel that nexus. 3gate void all-in is emerging as the most robust build to use that works well versus a 1/1/1... but that's just sad. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:37 CortoMontez wrote: Personally I suspect that patch 1.4 wasn't intended to address the 1-1-1, since Blizzard would have spent a lot of time since the last patch coming up with these ideas, whilst the 1-1-1 issue only came up a few weeks before the PTR notes were released. The only two parts of the patch which could affect the 1-1-1 are: 5 second build time increase on barracks; which in my opinion won't have any effect upon the potency of the 1-1-1 because there is such a large timing window where this build wins that a 5 second delay will make no difference. +1 range on immortals; I also think this will have no effect upon the ability of protoss to hold off the 1-1-1, since it seemed that the main problem wasn't that immortals couldn't reach the tanks , but that the immortals melted so fast to the marines. Although the immortals would outrange marines, there will almost definitely be marines INFRONT of the tanks, meaning that they still have to go into marine attack range to kill the tanks. EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point). There is a blind counter...it's called 15 nexus. Off of a 15 nexus you'll have 5-6 gates and a robo along with enough probes to produce out of it all, and you'll roflstomp this push. However, 15 nexus can be all-inned with 100% certainty of kill if terran was going for 1rax gasless FE, and a 2rax opener can put you extremely far behind. Guess what also happens to be two of the more common TvP builds? Even in the GSL, if I counted just those 2 builds, it would probably account for 50+% of the openers that aren't 1/1/1 | ||
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:48 Amui wrote: There is a blind counter...it's called 15 nexus. Off of a 15 nexus you'll have 5-6 gates and a robo along with enough probes to produce out of it all, and you'll roflstomp this push. However, 15 nexus can be all-inned with 100% certainty of kill if terran was going for 1rax gasless FE, and a 2rax opener can put you extremely far behind. Guess what also happens to be two of the more common TvP builds? Even in the GSL, if I counted just those 2 builds, it would probably account for 50+% of the openers that aren't 1/1/1 So... you're basically saying that the blind-counter to 1-1-1 is to die to a 2 rax (or other build) instead? | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
OH? So it was a translation? Does anyone have the original tweet in Korean? | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:50 CortoMontez wrote: So... you're basically saying that the blind-counter to 1-1-1 is to die to a 2 rax (or other build) instead? No hes saying the hard counter to 1/1/1 is a 15 nexus theoretically. However any terran who plans on doing 1/1/1 and sees you going 15 nexus can simply change his plans and 2 rax you to win even faster. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:45 dooraven wrote: No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big. Not really, since the immortals are been killed primarily by the marines. | ||
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MerciLess
213 Posts
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Beardedclam
United States839 Posts
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