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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 28 2011 11:55 Tokadub wrote:
To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build.
Not going to comment on all the theorycrafting about attack angles and positions, but you're completely wrong about the Phoenix. If he had lifted the Tanks, the Phoenix would've died to Marine focus fire almost instantly. They almost did anyway, and that was under a guardian shield. Kiwi's build leaves him no gas for Stalkers, so if he doesn't clean up the Banshees with his air, he just loses to them no matter how well he does on the ground.
On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game.
If you can't defend 4gate as a Terran player, then you deserve to be in Masters even less than those all-ining Protosses. Seriously, 4gate is so bad against Terran nowadays, you can 1 rax FE, not scout at all, and defend it with unupgraded Marines out of 3 rax and one Bunker. 3 Gate VR is quite a bit harder, but people defend it all the time in high level games.
This is all irrelevant though. Literally nobody defends a well-executed 1/1/1, even if they know it's coming way ahead in time. Stuff has been heavily nerfed in this game for far less. The original 3 Gate VR resulted in a huge VR nerf before it even had a chance to appear in tournament play, just because Maka sent a replay to David Kim.
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CAn we at least change the thread title. I find it funny theres a warning inside not to mention nerfs... yet the title is basically "why 1-1-1 is imbalanced".
Begging for a terran mod.
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Tokadub, way to bring up entirely different issues of yours entirely unrelated to the current 1/1/1 discussion in your 2nd post... Your 1st post's suggestion of lifting the tanks with the phoenix when there are 30 marines under them, by the way, is worthy of note - and not for the right reasons.
I've yet to see a pro protoss win against a well-executed 1/1/1 in a big tournament, but by now we have good ideas as to what doesn't work too well and what doesn't work at all, both on the micro and the macro side. I was just adding to that with my long post.
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On August 28 2011 12:14 JediGamer wrote:
CAn we at least change the thread title. I find it funny theres a warning inside not to mention nerfs... yet the title is basically "why 1-1-1 is imbalanced".
Begging for a terran mod.
The thread title and OP are descriptive, not declarative.
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On August 28 2011 12:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game. No one is particularly complaining about this happening at lower levels. It's ridiculous how much better you have to play than Terran to hold it, but it is possible. As with all balance issues this is about the highest level, where even the very best Protoss players get kerbstomped by a 1base allin. That really shouldn't be possible.
I really don't know what your talking about. All races can be killed by a wide variety of all ins. This includes the best players in the world.
Kiwi could of won that battle if he engaged it correctly.
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On August 28 2011 12:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game. No one is particularly complaining about this happening at lower levels. It's ridiculous how much better you have to play than Terran to hold it, but it is possible. As with all balance issues this is about the highest level, where even the very best Protoss players get kerbstomped by a 1base allin. That really shouldn't be possible.
Do you even play this game?
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On August 28 2011 12:20 Tokadub wrote:
I really don't know what your talking about. All races can be killed by a wide variety of all ins. This includes the best players in the world.
Well of course they can. Difference is that they *always* do when it comes to this one. Nothing should be that hard to hold, if it's even possible.
Kiwi could of won that battle if he engaged it correctly.
Yeah no. Puma had like 20 marines and 3 tanks at the end. Kiwi didn't have a prayer. He didn't have nearly enough stuff because he was on 1base.
Do you even play this game?
Yeah do you? Noticed how fucked up GSL PvT is lately? Wanna guess why?
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one of the biggest issues here is probe vs scv pulling. you can pull probes at your natural and sometimes defend it, but they're nowhere close to SCV pulls because the marines can just hide behind them.
it's just so easy and so brutal
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On August 28 2011 12:07 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:55 _Search_ wrote:On August 28 2011 11:48 HoMM wrote:
111 reinforces 4 marines per production cycle so delaying doesnt really help if ur on 1 base. Pulled scv dont matter because terran has mules. In fact the only reason Terran even makes SCVs is for meat shields in battles. One OC gives both infinite minerals and constant map vision because scans are free too. He is not whining he is explaining how the 111 production capabilities works. No need to be an asshole.
Then maybe he should explain it using even the barest game sense and factual knowledge rather than repeating noobish qq and straight-up lies.
Pulling SCVs matters. A lot.
MULEs provide 160 minerals/minute. A reactored rax spends 200 minerals in 50 seconds. No. MULEs from one OC does NOT make up for pulling SCVs.
One barracks with a reactor core (basically twice the cost and time it takes to make a gateway, including lost SCV mining time) produces 200 minerals of army in 50 seconds. 2 gateways (the cost equivalent of one rax with reactor core) produces 200 minerals of zealots in 38 seconds, or, if stalkers, 250/100 in 42 seconds...and toss gets the units at the START of the cycle!
Don't play the "who's got worse production efficiency" game with a Terran. 2 warp gates are much, much more efficient than a reactored barracks.
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On August 28 2011 12:12 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:01 Acritter wrote:On August 28 2011 11:55 Tokadub wrote:
To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but marines against what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build. The only way that argument works is if Puma had engaged with some degree of brilliance. However, the 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off. It's an all-in that is stupidly easy to perform and stupidly hard to counter. That's the issue with it. It's not impossible to hold off, just so hard to that Protoss suffers immensely against it. It actually is impossible to hold off for the protoss. The only way for protoss to hold it off is for the terran to make mistakes which is the sad part of this build. It was basically like 5 rax reapers pre-patch, zerg couldn't win the game but the terran player had to lose it. This is actually the definition of imbalance (which is misused quite a bit). Something is only imbalanced when it isn't even in your hands to change the results.
I disagree with the point about protoss players playing perfectly against it then losing. I don't think we're at the point where people are actually microing to maximum efficiency.
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So you think that having the phoenix attacking the banshees is why you make the phoenix? Because that's completely stupid. The terran has scvs and if you try to target the banshees with the phoenix he will simply pull the banshees back behind the marines and repair them. There's no way that will ever work. What you do is you pick up all the tanks simultaneously right as your ground army closes in. You get good surface area and good force fields. Unupgraded marines don't really do jack shit to zealots with guardian shield. Even if the terran manages to target all your phoenixes (easier said then done when he must also try to micro his marines away from zealots and micro banshees), which if he does his marines will get chopped to pieces by the zealots, at least the tanks won't get really any shots off before the zealots are in close range.
If your really just trying to use phoenix to kill banshees even though there's a ton of marines and scvs to repair the banshee.... you would be a lot better off just getting stalkers or the zealot charge upgrade.
Ideally you lift the tanks FIRST and still have a pheonix or two left and THEN u fight the banshees after your zealots are up close and personal.
Its posts like these which leads me to believe protoss players or casual observers really don't understand the battle from the terrans perspective. If you want to let my tanks shoot you and not lift them and I can kite my banshees away from pheonix? Then guess what you just wasted a ton of money on pheonix and you will lose.
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On August 28 2011 11:54 usethis2 wrote:
I find it ironic that MVP has tweeted his msg against 1/1/1 (in fluent English, no less) when he does 1/1/1 ver 2.0 all the time. (i.e. 2 base 1/1/1) It's equally difficult to defend against 2 base 1/1/1 as to defend against 1 base 1/1/1. The reason why 1 base version is scarier is it is very difficult to scout what's exactly coming. (confirming 1/1/1, then finding out the composition)
2 base version makes it easier to scout, but as long as the map allows - relatively straight forward rout to Protoss natural, hard to take 3rd, etc. - 2 base version packs even more firepower than 1 base version.
It was translated by Milkis bro.
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So the 1/1/1 is very difficult if not nearly impossible for Toss to hold off; how do zerg fare?
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On August 28 2011 12:32 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:12 sekritzzz wrote:On August 28 2011 12:01 Acritter wrote:On August 28 2011 11:55 Tokadub wrote:
To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but marines against what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build. The only way that argument works is if Puma had engaged with some degree of brilliance. However, the 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off. It's an all-in that is stupidly easy to perform and stupidly hard to counter. That's the issue with it. It's not impossible to hold off, just so hard to that Protoss suffers immensely against it. It actually is impossible to hold off for the protoss. The only way for protoss to hold it off is for the terran to make mistakes which is the sad part of this build. It was basically like 5 rax reapers pre-patch, zerg couldn't win the game but the terran player had to lose it. This is actually the definition of imbalance (which is misused quite a bit). Something is only imbalanced when it isn't even in your hands to change the results. I disagree with the point about protoss players playing perfectly against it then losing. I don't think we're at the point where people are actually microing to maximum efficiency.
This isn't marine v baneling or somesuch though, where in theory you can do anything with sufficient micro. There isn't enough micro in the world that can stop an early Protoss gateway army from sucking hard against marine/tank/banshee.
What micro do you propose, no matter how hard, that could even come close to holding this?
So the 1/1/1 is very difficult if not nearly impossible for Toss to hold off; how do zerg fare?
Zerg gets banelings which blow up marine balls. Protoss's big problem is dealing with the marine ball. Normally sentries are used but sentries are made useless by tank/banshee. If Protoss had something even half as good as banelings this build would be no problemo.
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On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game.
you should not be losing to 4 gates....
anyway, they are true all ins that can be hard countered if scouted
1/1/1 has proved to be very effective even if scouted, and it is not an all in
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Who said anything about losing to 4 gates? I simply said that nearly every single protoss on NA has no skill and relies on all ins (usually 4 gate). And now protoss are all complaining about all ins, the race that 99% of the time goes 4 gate all in... give me a break. I just find it ironic that the most all in timing based race is complaining about an all in timing based play.
I would agree though that 1/1/1 is a VERY powerful all in. But it is stoppable protoss just don't get it yet.
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On August 28 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game. you should not be losing to 4 gates.... anyway, they are true all ins that can be hard countered if scouted 1/1/1 has proved to be very effective even if scouted, and it is not an all in
It absolutely is an all in if the attack fails the terran pretty much lost.
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On August 28 2011 12:33 Tokadub wrote:
So you think that having the phoenix attacking the banshees is why you make the phoenix? Because that's completely stupid. The terran has scvs and if you try to target the banshees with the phoenix he will simply pull the banshees back behind the marines and repair them. There's no way that will ever work. What you do is you pick up all the tanks simultaneously right as your ground army closes in. You get good surface area and good force fields. Unupgraded marines don't really do jack shit to zealots with guardian shield. Even if the terran manages to target all your phoenixes (easier said then done when he must also try to micro his marines away from zealots and micro banshees), which if he does his marines will get chopped to pieces by the zealots, at least the tanks won't get really any shots off before the zealots are in close range.
If your really just trying to use phoenix to kill banshees even though there's a ton of marines and scvs to repair the banshee.... you would be a lot better off just getting stalkers or the zealot charge upgrade.
Ideally you lift the tanks FIRST and still have a pheonix or two left and THEN u fight the banshees after your zealots are up close and personal.
Its posts like these which leads me to believe protoss players or casual observers really don't understand the battle from the terrans perspective. If you want to let my tanks shoot you and not lift them and I can kite my banshees away from pheonix? Then guess what you just wasted a ton of money on pheonix and you will lose.
stop theorycrafting, youre so clueless at this game.
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And if you really want to beat the 1/1/1 just go 3 gate with stargate for fast void rays. If you can warp into the terrans base with the void ray vision it puts the terran in an EXTREMELY awkward situation. This will eliminate his ability to defend with a bunker and he hardly has enough marines to begin with to hold void rays. The protoss DEFINITELY has the advantage in this build order battle, so if you really think 1/1/1 is impossible to hold just do that build and you will win at least some games.
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On August 28 2011 12:50 Tokadub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game. you should not be losing to 4 gates.... anyway, they are true all ins that can be hard countered if scouted 1/1/1 has proved to be very effective even if scouted, and it is not an all in It absolutely is an all in if the attack fails the terran pretty much lost.
You might want to watch MC v Puma game 1 on Xelnaga. MC defeated the first push, then the second one just straight up killed him.
And if you really want to beat the 1/1/1 just go 3 gate with stargate for fast void rays. If you can warp into the terrans base with the void ray vision it puts the terran in an EXTREMELY awkward situation. This will eliminate his ability to defend with a bunker and he hardly has enough marines to begin with to hold void rays. The protoss DEFINITELY has the advantage in this build order battle, so if you really think 1/1/1 is impossible to hold just do that build and you will win at least some games.
Watch Tassadar v Yoda game 3. Viking with bunkers = not good for 3 gate stargate lol. Build order is better with 1/1/1 because you get a super fast starport where you don't really with other BOs
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EPT
