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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 26 2011 17:18 Egomancer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:54 vOdToasT wrote:
If you don't think 2 gate zealot rushes were OP, you are a very biased person. I played Protoss at that time, and HELL YES it was imbalanced. I would have said so then, and I say so now.
4 gate hasn't been imbalanced for quite a while, however. 6 pool was beating the proxy gateways so it was not imbalanced. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about 1-1-1 and unfortunately this patch does not address this issue. The immmortal range has no use against that build ... Egomancer
It was imbalanced even if you didn't proxy it on lots of maps. And just because there is one build that beats it doesn't mean it's balanced. It was good vs EVERY OTHER zerg build. If Zerg went 6 pool and it wasnt a proxy gate, zerg was fucked.
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On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding.
I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance.
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On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote:
This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Allin is possibly too strong in general.
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In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so.
I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution.
The problem with that is that you don't know if the terran is getting cloak or not. If he does, its instaloss whatever you do.
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On August 26 2011 01:22 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___< This does get rather annoying. 1-1-1 fails -"That wasn't a 1-1-1. It was missing [Pick one from Banshee/Raven/Tank]" -"GODDAMN. HE'S SO BAD AT EXECUTING 1-1-1" -"If that was MVP or Bomber, terran would've won" A marine tank build or any "variant" of 1-1-1 succeeds -"1-1-1 OP" -"Marines and tanks. they're all same sh*t and they're all impossible to defend" -"1-1-1 takes no skill. Anyone can do it and 1A move to victory" Nobody uses 1-1-1 -"1-1-1 OP" -"He should've used 1-1-1" Not saying everyone does this. I think some people make pretty convincing points in a reasonable manner, but there are also quite a few others who seem way too hung up on this and also contradict themselves depending on the outcome of each game.
Well said, this is going nowhere fast.
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I'm a diamond protoss and usually I three gate expand seeing as I don't trust myself to be good enough to hold of any kind of pressure with just one gateway. The only way I've found to hold off the first push is just to throw up a dark shrine and hope to God your dt's don't get scanned really early. But even if I do get lucky and defeat the first wave all Terran has to do is produce one raven and that completely nullify's my dt's especially when they use point defense drone to stop me from sniping it.
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On August 26 2011 19:57 aSpanishGoat wrote:
I'm a diamond protoss and usually I three gate expand seeing as I don't trust myself to be good enough to hold of any kind of pressure with just one gateway. The only way I've found to hold off the first push is just to throw up a dark shrine and hope to God your dt's don't get scanned really early. But even if I do get lucky and defeat the first wave all Terran has to do is produce one raven and that completely nullify's my dt's especially when they use point defense drone to stop me from sniping it.
The solution is not to get DT, if the terran doesn't include Raven they often charge up energy instead, at least that is what any smart terran should do.
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So i just beat a Protoss with a 1-rax FE.
He asked me how the fuck he can counter ''this shit''.
I was like what, that was standard no 1-1-1.
He replies, i wish you would have 1-1-1. ''Now that shit i can deal with''. xd
:D
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On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance.
Tyler and Axlav when they say 1-1-1 is not broken does not apply because they're not korean level.
MC and Huk saying 1-1-1 is not broken is because they don't complain about balance.
MVP saying 1-1-1 is broken is objective and acceptable...
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On August 26 2011 19:59 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:57 aSpanishGoat wrote:
I'm a diamond protoss and usually I three gate expand seeing as I don't trust myself to be good enough to hold of any kind of pressure with just one gateway. The only way I've found to hold off the first push is just to throw up a dark shrine and hope to God your dt's don't get scanned really early. But even if I do get lucky and defeat the first wave all Terran has to do is produce one raven and that completely nullify's my dt's especially when they use point defense drone to stop me from sniping it. The solution is not to get DT, if the terran doesn't include Raven they often charge up energy instead, at least that is what any smart terran should do.
What's a good alternative then?
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On August 26 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance. Tyler and Axlav when they say 1-1-1 is not broken does not apply because they're not korean level. MC and Huk saying 1-1-1 is not broken is because they don't complain about balance. MVP saying 1-1-1 is broken is objective and acceptable...
Tyler basically said "there should be a way to counter it after scouting". Axslav didn't even say anything, it was just Idra trolling (Axslav supposedly says everything is easy to counter). If anything, you should quote Incontrol and Artosis, who both claim it's fine, and the solution is to be less greedy.
MC hasn't said anything about the build's power tbh, he just said he could've played better against PuMa (he always says that after he loses). HuK did say he can hold it well, curious to see a good Korean Terran 1/1/1 him. Although the fact that he loses to it fairly often on his stream doesn't bode well imo.
Finally, on the "imba" side, you have MVP, Gisado and Alicia.
I dunno, you can take whatever you want from this, but as it stands currently, the build has a 80%+ winrate in GSL, and most recent TvPs there have been reduced to players 1 base all-ining for the win. This is not good no matter how you cut it.
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Unless some pro comes up with some genius build to crush a 1/1/1, blizzard will ultimately do something. I recon they will target a terrans gas on one base since screwing with the mechanics of the marine just isn't goin to happen.
Something along the lines of PDD/cloak/banshees or raven requiring a fusion core. Gives a good gas and time sink for the Terran and puts the onus on the Protoss to scout the core. If you couldint find the core, one or more of the 1/1/1 variables can be eliminated.
A better solution though, is for MC or huk to lead us to the promised land.
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On August 26 2011 20:22 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote:On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance. Tyler and Axlav when they say 1-1-1 is not broken does not apply because they're not korean level. MC and Huk saying 1-1-1 is not broken is because they don't complain about balance. MVP saying 1-1-1 is broken is objective and acceptable... Tyler basically said "there should be a way to counter it after scouting". Axslav didn't even say anything, it was just Idra trolling (Axslav supposedly says everything is easy to counter). If anything, you should quote Incontrol and Artosis, who both claim it's fine, and the solution is to be less greedy. MC hasn't said anything about the build's power tbh, he just said he could've played better against PuMa (he always says that after he loses). HuK did say he can hold it well, curious to see a good Korean Terran 1/1/1 him. Although the fact that he loses to it fairly often on his stream doesn't bode well imo. Finally, on the "imba" side, you have MVP, Gisado and Alicia. I dunno, you can take whatever you want from this, but as it stands currently, the build has a 80%+ winrate in GSL, and most recent TvPs there have been reduced to players 1 base all-ining for the win. This is not good no matter how you cut it.
Protosses are having hard time against Terrans 1-1-1 build.
I think the build is easy [to execute]. It is a problem because it can be done by anyone but is very strong. But I can block 1-1-1. I chose CrossfireSE against SlayersTaeja to counter any possible 1-1-1 builds. I practiced very hard blocking it because I lost to it on IEM as well. Now I feel like I could distinguish terran builds just by glancing at the situation.
-MC
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258907
The point is that there are a lot of top level protoss players saying the build is fine, yet apparently those are not taken into account, but MVP saying the build is broken is suddenly hard fact. I was pointing out the hypocrisy, nothing else.
As far as 80% win rates in TvP goes. The allin version is relatively new and the counter has not yet been clearly presented. 2rax bunker rushes were dominating hard back when they first popped up, but they're a lot easier to defend now, by a combination of nerfs and people getting used to them.
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Note how MC chose CrossfireSE specifically to block the build.
Now, I wonder, can he do it on maps like zel naga? I strongly strongly doubt it if the 1-1-1 is well executed.
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On August 26 2011 21:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 20:22 Toadvine wrote:On August 26 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote:On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance. Tyler and Axlav when they say 1-1-1 is not broken does not apply because they're not korean level. MC and Huk saying 1-1-1 is not broken is because they don't complain about balance. MVP saying 1-1-1 is broken is objective and acceptable... Tyler basically said "there should be a way to counter it after scouting". Axslav didn't even say anything, it was just Idra trolling (Axslav supposedly says everything is easy to counter). If anything, you should quote Incontrol and Artosis, who both claim it's fine, and the solution is to be less greedy. MC hasn't said anything about the build's power tbh, he just said he could've played better against PuMa (he always says that after he loses). HuK did say he can hold it well, curious to see a good Korean Terran 1/1/1 him. Although the fact that he loses to it fairly often on his stream doesn't bode well imo. Finally, on the "imba" side, you have MVP, Gisado and Alicia. I dunno, you can take whatever you want from this, but as it stands currently, the build has a 80%+ winrate in GSL, and most recent TvPs there have been reduced to players 1 base all-ining for the win. This is not good no matter how you cut it. Protosses are having hard time against Terrans 1-1-1 build. I think the build is easy [to execute]. It is a problem because it can be done by anyone but is very strong. But I can block 1-1-1. I chose CrossfireSE against SlayersTaeja to counter any possible 1-1-1 builds. I practiced very hard blocking it because I lost to it on IEM as well. Now I feel like I could distinguish terran builds just by glancing at the situation. -MC http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258907The point is that there are a lot of top level protoss players saying the build is fine, yet apparently those are not taken into account, but MVP saying the build is broken is suddenly hard fact. I was pointing out the hypocrisy, nothing else. As far as 80% win rates in TvP goes. The allin version is relatively new and the counter has not yet been clearly presented. 2rax bunker rushes were dominating hard back when they first popped up, but they're a lot easier to defend now, by a combination of nerfs and people getting used to them.
Okay, that's fair enough. Didn't actually read that interview, so thanks for that. However, if what HuK and MC are referring to is what is described in the OP of this thread - greedy expansion into 4 Gate Robo with Immortals - then that doesn't really solve the problem. Even if you can get like a 50% win rate against the 1/1/1 with that, it would still make it way too powerful. As it stands, the mere existence of this build gives Terran a huge advantage in TvP, even when it's not used.
As for 2 rax bunker rushes, they never had a win rate even comparable to 1/1/1 (except on close positions I suppose, but that was more of a map failure, just like 3 Gate VR on Metalopolis). Besides, the 2 rax problem was way different. Protoss is struggling to even survive the 1/1/1 attack, while Zerg could always survive 2 rax just fine, even at its peak during GSL Open S3. What Zergs were complaining about, was that there was no way to distinguish a 2 rax CC from a marine/scv all-in, and that preparing for the latter would put them way behind against the former.
Zergs typically lose to bunker rushes when they don't respect them enough, and try to cut too many corners. Protosses expand super early, cut probes early (35 probes is probably the maximum), only power units out, and then they still lose more than half the time.
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Has anyone tried a phoenix gateway composition (not mega huge sentry count then, since you would lift tanks making your stalker/zealot good vs. marines in reasonable numbers)? Either out of a 1gate FE, then with like 1 stargate 4-5 gate, or something like a gate stargate 1base pressure into expo and more gate or 2 stargate. I feel like with the tanks in the air, or with phoenix crushing banshee and/or nullifying PDD fast, you might have a chance? Also, if you went a build like this and they DIDNT 1-1-1, you could probably put on significant economic pressure and work on preventing or shutting down more bases.
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On August 27 2011 07:26 IotaSC wrote:
Has anyone tried a phoenix gateway composition (not mega huge sentry count then, since you would lift tanks making your stalker/zealot good vs. marines in reasonable numbers)? Either out of a 1gate FE, then with like 1 stargate 4-5 gate, or something like a gate stargate 1base pressure into expo and more gate or 2 stargate. I feel like with the tanks in the air, or with phoenix crushing banshee and/or nullifying PDD fast, you might have a chance? Also, if you went a build like this and they DIDNT 1-1-1, you could probably put on significant economic pressure and work on preventing or shutting down more bases.
There are plenty of ways to stop it, this is one, saw perfect do it just the other day. Hell I think deezer even did this to me and beat me as much as I hate to admit.
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the reason that 1-1-1 is unbalanced is pretty simple and lies in the design of both Protoss and Terran
First Reason
Terran gets High DPS Units out of each of the 3 buildings (rax,fax,port)
this means, going 1-1-1 and producing constantly units will leave you with superior DPS than any protoss build that always also needs to build less dps supporting units.
Second Reason
Protoss can anticipate that, and try to prepare a counter, but here the flexibility of 1-1-1 shines where they can adjust easily and counter the counter.
This makes the proper defense of 1-1-1 so hard prepare.
Third Reason
Easier scouting of Terran and worse Scouting of Protoss makes preparing usually a guessing game for protoss because protoss can not go 1-1-1 like Terran does because both Robo and Starport build very specialised units that can be good when they hit the units they counter but suck when not.
i don't know how to solve this though, may be give protoss better scouting abilities to make preparing the right units easier.
The problem lies not in just some tweaks but in the flexibility of Terran and the raw dps of Terran units that come out of each building.
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I don't play protoss, but I'm curious if gas stealing the terran is a viable way to delay/counter 1-1-1. By gas stealing, you pretty much guarantee that terran can't go cloaked banshees, or get a raven out in a timely manner. Plus, you can tie up an initial marine or two, which allows for a zealot/stalker poke at the ramp.
WanneBeCool went for a gas steal in both his games against Puma today at MLG Raleigh. In game 1, he followed with a one gate robo and rushed to collosus. He lost, but I think that might have had more to do with him taking a hidden expo on xel naga and getting it scouted. Puma didn't have a raven when he pushed and WBC was able to get out two collosi.
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On August 26 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance. Tyler and Axlav when they say 1-1-1 is not broken does not apply because they're not korean level. MC and Huk saying 1-1-1 is not broken is because they don't complain about balance. MVP saying 1-1-1 is broken is objective and acceptable...
LOL, Im not even going to try to use logic to get you out of your argument since you didnt seem to use logic to get into it......
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On August 26 2011 19:39 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding. I cant say for Tyler or Axslav, but MC and Huk never complain about balance.
MC did.. He said Zerg/Protoss needs to be 4 times, 8 times better than Terran opponents in ordert to win. Will try to find a link but it's in Korean.
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EPT
