|
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
Maybe it was due to the vast difference in player skill? I downloaded a series between Hwangsin and FXOsC (previously sCfOu) and Hwangsin never came close to stopping sC's 1/1/1.
|
On August 26 2011 02:24 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:22 Sein wrote:On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___< This does get rather annoying. 1-1-1 fails -"That wasn't a 1-1-1. It was missing [Pick one from Banshee/Raven/Tank]" -"GODDAMN. HE'S SO BAD AT EXECUTING 1-1-1" -"If that was MVP or Bomber, terran would've won" A marine tank build or any "variant" of 1-1-1 succeeds -"1-1-1 OP" -"Marines and tanks. they're all same sh*t and they're all impossible to defend" -"1-1-1 takes no skill. Anyone can do it and 1A move to victory" Nobody uses 1-1-1 -"1-1-1 OP" -"He should've used 1-1-1" Not saying everyone does this. I think some people make pretty convincing points in a reasonable manner, but there are also quite a few others who seem way too hung up on this and also contradict themselves depending on the outcome of each game. I think that game between drewbie and Hwangsin is very educational. It also gave me a bit of an idea as to why foreigner pros don't consider this build overpowered. See, there was a game in the July Up/Down matches between Tassadar and sC, which was virtually identical BO-wise. However, in that game, sC absolutely crushed Tassadar. It was on Metalopolis, but that shouldn't produce such a huge difference in outcomes. I think the reason is that this all-in is actually very fragile against a high-level opponent. Missing the timing slightly or not focus firing the right stuff can mean the difference between an overwhelming win and a close loss. When Koreans use this build, they're always on top of these things, you have Tanks shooting at Sentries/Stalkers, Marines and Banshees focusing Immortals, Scvs buffering Zealots, and so on. That's why Sase can beat it while laddering on EU, and then get 0-3 by MKP using just 1 base all-ins. All that said, this is still really stupid. You guys say that the player executing perfectly should always win, but that's simply not true for all-ins. I can 4 Gate a Zerg, and have absolutely perfect execution, but if he knows it's coming and prepares well, I'll still lose. This doesn't seem to be true at all for the 1/1/1.
I like your posts. I'm personally rather ambivalent on this 1-1-1 balance issue as of right now, but you do make some good points.
|
Ultra noobie question, but how much would a gas steal delay 1-1-1 and could you even take advantage of that? Ostensibly you'd 1 gate FE or 15 nexus, but if you stole the gas, they might just 2 rax you and you'd die. :/
|
On August 26 2011 02:33 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
Maybe it was due to the vast difference in player skill? I downloaded a series between Hwangsin and FXOsC (previously sCfOu) and Hwangsin never came close to stopping sC's 1/1/1.
Yup. Hwangsin losses a lot to 1-1-1 on the Korean server when he streams
Ultra noobie question, but how much would a gas steal delay 1-1-1 and could you even take advantage of that? Ostensibly you'd 1 gate FE or 15 nexus, but if you stole the gas, they might just 2 rax you and you'd die. :/
I don't think it delays it by much, I've watched Thorzain do it and he gets his second gas a bit late. But then again hes Thorzain and he probably has all his timings down
|
On August 26 2011 00:55 AbztraK wrote:
what happened to the 1-1-1 being a safe well rounded opener for terrans... now apparently its an unstoppable all-in
how did that happen
Since beta they:
1. Added 5 seconds to zealot build time
2. Added 5 seconds to gateway build time
3. Added 50 seconds to warp research time.
4. Added 5 seconds to zealot warp time
Add this up and see why it is an unstoppable all in and why this was not a problem in beta or before. Same happens with the 3 roaches all in or 7 roaches all in from the zerg - because of the added time to research warp they suddenly became dangerous.
Going back to 1-1-1 - this build is overpowered in the sense that the chances to win against it are very small. Do you remember when zergs were complaining about 4 gates? That build was imbalanced until they figured out how to counter it - make 19 drones, 2 sunkens and a shitload of zerglings. Simple counter for that. What is a counter to 1-1-1 that kills it 90% of the time?
HOWEVER Blizzard still nerfed the 4 gate because it was too hard to stop (!!!!). Same went with the 2 gate proxy, with zealot rush in beta. It feels UNFAIR that the protoss gets nerfed into oblivion while terran remains the same and he has this build that suddenly gets OP because of the other nerfs. that the protoss got. This is why I personally want a nerf.
Can we find an answer to the 1-1-1 build? Sure we do, but until now the answer to these kind of situations was a nerf and I am expecting the same. Once more, it feel UNFAIR that I get nerfed because one of my build is too strong while the other races can get away with the same.
Egomancer
|
I've seen Hwangsin beat the 1-1-1 plently of times. The difference is that the terran trying to pull it off doesn't put down any bunkers and doesn't even try to micro the level Hwangsin does. He'll force the tanks to siege and unsiege buying time to warp in another round of zealots. He's very patient and won't dive his forces right in.
|
On August 26 2011 14:57 Egomancer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:55 AbztraK wrote:
what happened to the 1-1-1 being a safe well rounded opener for terrans... now apparently its an unstoppable all-in
how did that happen Since beta they: 1. Added 5 seconds to zealot build time 2. Added 5 seconds to gateway build time 3. Added 50 seconds to warp research time. 4. Added 5 seconds to zealot warp time Add this up and see why it is an unstoppable all in and why this was not a problem in beta or before. Same happens with the 3 roaches all in or 7 roaches all in from the zerg - because of the added time to research warp they suddenly became dangerous. Going back to 1-1-1 - this build is overpowered in the sense that the chances to win against it are very small. Do you remember when zergs were complaining about 4 gates? That build was imbalanced until they figured out how to counter it - make 19 drones, 2 sunkens and a shitload of zerglings. Simple counter for that. What is a counter to 1-1-1 that kills it 90% of the time? HOWEVER Blizzard still nerfed the 4 gate because it was too hard to stop (!!!!). Same went with the 2 gate proxy, with zealot rush in beta. It feels UNFAIR that the protoss gets nerfed into oblivion while terran remains the same and he has this build that suddenly gets OP because of the other nerfs. that the protoss got. This is why I personally want a nerf. Can we find an answer to the 1-1-1 build? Sure we do, but until now the answer to these kind of situations was a nerf and I am expecting the same. Once more, it feel UNFAIR that I get nerfed because one of my build is too strong while the other races can get away with the same. Egomancer
If you don't think 2 gate zealot rushes were OP, you are a very biased person. I played Protoss at that time, and HELL YES it was imbalanced. I would have said so then, and I say so now.
4 gate hasn't been imbalanced for quite a while, however.
|
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding.
|
On August 26 2011 16:58 arbitrageur wrote:
mc huk axslav and tyler have all come out in support of it being beatable. Not claiming balance one way or the other.. just adding.
the only statement of those that i can take seriously is huk who basically said that you win automatically if you plat the first 10-15 mins perfectly.
MC is 0-3 against 1-1-1 by opponents his skill-lvl in recent matches and I doubt the latter 2 come even close to holding a well executed 1-1-1 when players many times their skill & practice schedules fall to it time and time again.
|
On August 26 2011 16:54 vOdToasT wrote:
If you don't think 2 gate zealot rushes were OP, you are a very biased person. I played Protoss at that time, and HELL YES it was imbalanced. I would have said so then, and I say so now.
4 gate hasn't been imbalanced for quite a while, however.
6 pool was beating the proxy gateways so it was not imbalanced. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about 1-1-1 and unfortunately this patch does not address this issue. The immmortal range has no use against that build ...
Egomancer
|
It's just painfully obvious that Marine/Tank/Banshee (w/ or w/o Raven) is far more cost efficient than anything Protoss can cook up before late game. Terran gets map control, scouting options, harassment options, tech options, economic options, and all-in options all from this broken composition, all while simultaneously limiting Protoss options to needing Robo for Obs. Maybe it's just me, but it's been kinda obvious since the days of beta how broken this build is. Nobodies could snipe MC with relative ease by doing this build or its variations. And Blizzard's response to this situation has to been to nerf Protoss some more. Only recently did they finally give Immortals 6 range, which I guess will fix things against those Tanks, assuming the Marines and Banshees aren't within a mile radius of them.
The build is beatable, yes, if the Terran makes costly mistakes and you play perfectly, but the point of a balanced Starcraft is to have disadvantages to your choices, and not just every advantage on the planet. Part of the reason I quit last season was because it was just more of the same in the metagame. There's a reason we're in the Protoss Dark Ages and 50% of tournament showing is Terran. Balance isn't being handled well at all.
|
On August 25 2011 10:29 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 02:06 H0i wrote:On August 25 2011 01:42 Jermstuddog wrote:
Turning the Stalker attack in to 2x 5(+3 vs armored) might work.
That would give you 10 damage vs light units (which typically have 0 armor) and 14 damage vs armored, up from 13. This is simply not a solution. Not only is it going to make armor upgrades very strong against stalkers, which will mean if you're 1 attack upgrade behind you have a significant disadvantage, but also the raven variation of the 1-1-1 is just one of many, and there are a lot of variations of the build that don't use a raven. On August 25 2011 01:42 Jermstuddog wrote:
My biggest concern there is that Stalkers would be even better vs Roaches than they currently are. +1 or +2 blink stalkers are already borderline OP in PvZ and turning their upgrade into +2 damage instead of +1 would make them twice as deadly. Let's not start this... but if anything, roaches > stalkers for cost. Stalkers are not "borderline OP". Believe me, I've played enough protoss and zerg to talk about this. I recommend you switch to random, and after maybe 300 games you'll understand what I'm talking about. Stalker Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. Looks like Blizzard agrees with me, sorry bro.
Blink research was never what took time for a blink stalker timing push, it was waiting for upgrades like +2 to finish. So no, Blizzard doesn't agree with you, they changed PvP early game again by giving blink stalkers a massive nerf, it does nothing in any PvZ timing.
|
I'm only a Gold-league protoss, maybe nobody cares about what I have to say but nevertheless:
1 base defends can work in my opinion. I'd say expanding is actually a bad idea, depending on when he is going to push you. A fast robo with immortals for tanks and observers is a good idea, I don't know about Colossus, maybe for later parts but Colossus are very expensive and the thermal lance upgrade as well. Stalker/immortal maybe few Zealots/sentries, 1 base with observers should do the trick.
I don't believe there is any tactic in the whole world which there is no counter whatsoever to. It's rather a matter of people giving up than imbalance.
MC held off a 1/1/1 decently well with immortals/stalkers. I've seen Genius defend it by offence, doing a Voidray rush which was very successful. Myself, I've won Terrans who 1/1/1 with voidray rush. The only thing with voidray rush is that if T has really nice timing with banshees, you are going to loose a couple of workers due to cloak, but with some micro and stalkers it shouldnt be impossible.
|
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot.
|
On August 26 2011 18:27 wintergt wrote:
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot.
If I recall correctly the up&down last season pretty much every TvP was a 1/1/1 unfortunately T_T
|
On August 26 2011 18:27 wintergt wrote:
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot.
Check the TvPs from this season on small maps please 8)
Point is, the bigger the map the harder it is to pull off, at least vs a FE.
|
On August 26 2011 18:37 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 18:27 wintergt wrote:
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot. If I recall correctly the up&down last season pretty much every TvP was a 1/1/1 unfortunately T_T
But after that I have barely seen it at all (MVP did one in a bo3?). So it might just be a fad that comes and goes which happens so many times in sc2.
|
Vatican City State334 Posts
What makes this build really scary is when Terran brings some SCVs and starts staggering bunkers around the siege tanks. Feels unbreakable.
|
On August 26 2011 18:44 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 18:37 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 26 2011 18:27 wintergt wrote:
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot. If I recall correctly the up&down last season pretty much every TvP was a 1/1/1 unfortunately T_T But after that I have barely seen it at all (MVP did one in a bo3?). So it might just be a fad that comes and goes which happens so many times in sc2.
Hmm percentage wise it went down, but there was still a fair share of 1/1/1's this month - most notably Puma V MC.
|
On August 26 2011 18:27 wintergt wrote:
If it was that unstoppable you would see it every PvT match in GSL/GSTL but you don't by a long shot.
in the gsl they use maps with huge rush distances where protosses are FEing anyway so its difficult to pull off, but in the up/down on the smaller maps it was 1/1/1 like every single game at it had like an almost 100% winrate
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
