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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 25 2011 22:06 darkness wrote:
Can anyone provide a rep with proper holding off 111?
Thanks
Best build I have seen so far is just straight up copying Mcs 1 gate fe against Puma on xelnaga caverns. He never spends chrono on the warpgate and the 1 zealot 2 chroned stalker push should give you a good ideal on what to do when you go up his ramp.
If he had 6 gates up faster and never got the gas at his expansion giving him 16-16 mining minerals he might have been able to hold but it would have been hella close. Also if he had better forcefields during the inital engagement he might have been fine.
Best I can pump out after a 1 gate fe similar to mcs @10mn
1 robo
6 gates
38 probes mining 16-16-6
3 sentrys
6 stalkers
2 immortals none making
16 zealots would have been more if i was perfect
Mc had
1 robo
5 gates
7 zeal about to warp in 5 more
2 immortal about to get third
5 stalker
3 sentry
I really think Mcs macro was off by a bit and he just played bad with forcefields.
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On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
+ Show Spoiler +That one's pretty good. Drewbie's build was a bit strange (2 naked rax vs 1 reactor and 2 more rax later that Koreans do), but the push itself looked just fine. I guess the game illustrates the importance of flanks and good positioning . Hwangsin had like the worst possible expansion timing, and was down in supply as Drewbie's attack made its way across the map, but he had a really awesome engagement, which gave him the win along with Drewbie not focusfiring anything with his units.
I still think Drewbie would've won if he did some things differently, but I suppose this demonstrates that the Protoss can win by outmaneuvering the Terran, which is always nice.
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On August 25 2011 23:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
+ Show Spoiler +That one's pretty good. Drewbie's build was a bit strange (2 naked rax vs 1 reactor and 2 more rax later that Koreans do), but the push itself looked just fine. I guess the game illustrates the importance of flanks and good positioning . Hwangsin had like the worst possible expansion timing, and was down in supply as Drewbie's attack made its way across the map, but he had a really awesome engagement, which gave him the win along with Drewbie not focusfiring anything with his units.
I still think Drewbie would've won if he did some things differently, but I suppose this demonstrates that the Protoss can win by outmaneuvering the Terran, which is always nice.
Still I think Terran has to do mess up a lil bit for Toss to win though. If a 1-1-1 of Bomber or MVP caliber, I bet Hwangsin would be dead.
On another note, I see so many foreigners failing to 1-1-1, which I can never understand. Korean Terrans do it ezpz, it seems. Only foreigners can fail 1-1-1  , and it's sad cause it just once again shows the insurmountable difference between Korean and foreigner's skill ceiling.
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You are missing that it takes terran twice the amount of time to get the amount of workers a protoss/zerg can get, That's why mules are so important for terran eco and it's also why people should use a lot more stealth units vs terran to force scans
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On August 25 2011 23:52 Granter wrote:
You are missing that it takes terran twice the amount of time to get the amount of workers a protoss/zerg can get, That's why mules are so important for terran eco and it's also why people should use a lot more stealth units vs terran to force scans
Twice the amount? How did you calculate that?
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On August 25 2011 23:52 Granter wrote:
You are missing that it takes terran twice the amount of time to get the amount of workers a protoss/zerg can get
.
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Im sorry, but suggesting protoss use dark templar to try and hinder the terran's economy slightly makes very little sense. Most of these 1/1/1 builds involve a raven, ALL of them involve a wall in, and the fact of the matter is there is no way to kill enough scvs or force enough scans to allow the DTs to pay for themselves at all. Afaik that is the only 'stealth' option protoss has... unless you're talking about some crazy mass observer bust play that will change the way we think about sc2 forever O.O
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United States7483 Posts
Thorzain, the Surgeon Terran.
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On August 25 2011 23:45 s3183529 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 23:33 Toadvine wrote:On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
+ Show Spoiler +That one's pretty good. Drewbie's build was a bit strange (2 naked rax vs 1 reactor and 2 more rax later that Koreans do), but the push itself looked just fine. I guess the game illustrates the importance of flanks and good positioning . Hwangsin had like the worst possible expansion timing, and was down in supply as Drewbie's attack made its way across the map, but he had a really awesome engagement, which gave him the win along with Drewbie not focusfiring anything with his units.
I still think Drewbie would've won if he did some things differently, but I suppose this demonstrates that the Protoss can win by outmaneuvering the Terran, which is always nice.
Still I think Terran has to do mess up a lil bit for Toss to win though. If a 1-1-1 of Bomber or MVP caliber, I bet Hwangsin would be dead. On another note, I see so many foreigners failing to 1-1-1, which I can never understand. Korean Terrans do it ezpz, it seems. Only foreigners can fail 1-1-1 , and it's sad cause it just once again shows the insurmountable difference between Korean and foreigner's skill ceiling.
Or maybe American Protosses are super good vs 1-1-1.
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On August 26 2011 00:20 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 23:45 s3183529 wrote:On August 25 2011 23:33 Toadvine wrote:On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
+ Show Spoiler +That one's pretty good. Drewbie's build was a bit strange (2 naked rax vs 1 reactor and 2 more rax later that Koreans do), but the push itself looked just fine. I guess the game illustrates the importance of flanks and good positioning . Hwangsin had like the worst possible expansion timing, and was down in supply as Drewbie's attack made its way across the map, but he had a really awesome engagement, which gave him the win along with Drewbie not focusfiring anything with his units.
I still think Drewbie would've won if he did some things differently, but I suppose this demonstrates that the Protoss can win by outmaneuvering the Terran, which is always nice.
Still I think Terran has to do mess up a lil bit for Toss to win though. If a 1-1-1 of Bomber or MVP caliber, I bet Hwangsin would be dead. On another note, I see so many foreigners failing to 1-1-1, which I can never understand. Korean Terrans do it ezpz, it seems. Only foreigners can fail 1-1-1 , and it's sad cause it just once again shows the insurmountable difference between Korean and foreigner's skill ceiling. Or maybe American Protosses are super good vs 1-1-1.
lol =)). Anyway, I think Korea>EU>US? I don't know where China fits into, haven't seen too much of them.
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On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
Drewbie doesn't seem to know you can produce off 4 barracks in the 1/1/1. Did he not notice he was floating 300 minerals for the entire time?
He was producing 2 marines at a time instead of 4 marines at a time. That is the equivalent of doing a 2 rax vs Zerg except with 1 rax.
We cannot conclude anything from this game because Drewbie didn't make enough units for it to matter. Guy above is correct. NA Terrans suck at this build.
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On August 26 2011 00:20 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 23:45 s3183529 wrote:On August 25 2011 23:33 Toadvine wrote:On August 25 2011 21:43 Zandertron wrote:If you haven't seen the matches between It's Gosu and Complexity then don't look. + Show Spoiler +Hwangsin held off the 1/1/1 from Drewbie (ace match, last game) using a safe opener. He opened 1 gateway into robo, putting down another gateway soon. Hwangsin's Observer scouted the all-in and he immediately threw down 2 gateways and started pumping Immortals. He eventually expanded to his natural. Drewbie's push came and Hwangsin crushed it pretty hard.
It's important to note that Drewbie didn't pull SCV's which made have been a factor but it's hard to say, Hwangsin's army was mostly Stalkers, Sentries and Immortal's so with the right forcefields the SCVs wouldn't be much use except to tank damage.
+ Show Spoiler +That one's pretty good. Drewbie's build was a bit strange (2 naked rax vs 1 reactor and 2 more rax later that Koreans do), but the push itself looked just fine. I guess the game illustrates the importance of flanks and good positioning . Hwangsin had like the worst possible expansion timing, and was down in supply as Drewbie's attack made its way across the map, but he had a really awesome engagement, which gave him the win along with Drewbie not focusfiring anything with his units.
I still think Drewbie would've won if he did some things differently, but I suppose this demonstrates that the Protoss can win by outmaneuvering the Terran, which is always nice.
Still I think Terran has to do mess up a lil bit for Toss to win though. If a 1-1-1 of Bomber or MVP caliber, I bet Hwangsin would be dead. On another note, I see so many foreigners failing to 1-1-1, which I can never understand. Korean Terrans do it ezpz, it seems. Only foreigners can fail 1-1-1 , and it's sad cause it just once again shows the insurmountable difference between Korean and foreigner's skill ceiling. Or maybe American Protosses are super good vs 1-1-1.
I needed a good laugh, thanks! The mentioned player (Hwangsin) is a Korean btw :p
It is pretty weird how bad foreigners are at this build compared to Koreans though. They don't even seem to know the BO properly (Thorzain is another example here).
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I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___<
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On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___<
Not perfect just someone with TvP as good as Bomber/Puma etc doing the standard timing and a Toss on the skill level of Mc/Puzzle showing a build that holds it off and is not a blind counter that can get raped like 15 nex. I think Mc could have won his game versus puma on xel naga caverns had he played better.
But a terran only pumping 2 marines off of 1 base and not bringing scvs is way weaker then what top koreans do.
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On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___<
We want to find a solution to the problem, and unfortunately, when the Terran player screws up massively, we cannot use that particular game to help ourselves learn. We have seen players stop every other all in in the game even if the other all in is executed to a decent standard. No one has seen such a case with the 1-1-1 yet, except in the cases where an extremely greedy 1 gate expo or 15 nexus has been used.
We don't mind seeing slight imperfect play, because both players will not be playing optimally, but surely we cannot use things like 11 minute pushes, forgetting siege mode, not having enough raven energy, not doing the build right. As I said, you wouldn't cite someone holding off a 2 rax as evidence if the Terran forgot to build the second barracks. You wouldn't consider 15 nexus a good counter to 4 gate if the nexus first player defended a push coming at 7:50. What we want to see is a build or a micro techinique which shows 'yes, this defeats the push easy.'
Example? MC's 1 gate expand into 3 gate stargate with a voidray to hold off any roach ling all in. MC showed clearly from games against Idra and Moon, that his build was safe against all ins. Whilst both Idra and Moon probably had imperfect build orders, they were still executed well enough for us to see that MC's build totally crushed the roach ling attack and barely any losses were sustained at all.
Not a single 1-1-1 has been CRUSHED when it has been correctly executed, which would give us a sign of what's good or not,
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what happened to the 1-1-1 being a safe well rounded opener for terrans... now apparently its an unstoppable all-in
how did that happen
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On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___<
This does get rather annoying.
1-1-1 fails
-"That wasn't a 1-1-1. It was missing [Pick one from Banshee/Raven/Tank]"
-"GODDAMN. HE'S SO BAD AT EXECUTING 1-1-1"
-"If that was MVP or Bomber, terran would've won"
A marine tank build or any "variant" of 1-1-1 succeeds
-"1-1-1 OP"
-"Marines and tanks. they're all same sh*t and they're all impossible to defend"
-"1-1-1 takes no skill. Anyone can do it and 1A move to victory"
Nobody uses 1-1-1
-"1-1-1 OP"
-"He should've used 1-1-1"
Not saying everyone does this. I think some people make pretty convincing points in a reasonable manner, but there are also quite a few others who seem way too hung up on this and also contradict themselves depending on the outcome of each game.
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1 gate robo holds it off fine.
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why are people even discussing this lol
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On August 26 2011 01:22 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like the discussion isn't going anywhere very quickly, since whenever a player defends a 1-1-1, it automatically is perceived as imperfect play from the Terran and great play from the Protoss, whereas when 1-1-1 succeeds it's because the build is overpowered despite the Protoss being amazing.
What the hell do you guys want? A PERFECT player? Of course a perfect player would win every time >___< This does get rather annoying. 1-1-1 fails -"That wasn't a 1-1-1. It was missing [Pick one from Banshee/Raven/Tank]" -"GODDAMN. HE'S SO BAD AT EXECUTING 1-1-1" -"If that was MVP or Bomber, terran would've won" A marine tank build or any "variant" of 1-1-1 succeeds -"1-1-1 OP" -"Marines and tanks. they're all same sh*t and they're all impossible to defend" -"1-1-1 takes no skill. Anyone can do it and 1A move to victory" Nobody uses 1-1-1 -"1-1-1 OP" -"He should've used 1-1-1" Not saying everyone does this. I think some people make pretty convincing points in a reasonable manner, but there are also quite a few others who seem way too hung up on this and also contradict themselves depending on the outcome of each game.
I think that game between drewbie and Hwangsin is very educational. It also gave me a bit of an idea as to why foreigner pros don't consider this build overpowered. See, there was a game in the July Up/Down matches between Tassadar and sC, which was virtually identical BO-wise. However, in that game, sC absolutely crushed Tassadar. It was on Metalopolis, but that shouldn't produce such a huge difference in outcomes.
I think the reason is that this all-in is actually very fragile against a high-level opponent. Missing the timing slightly or not focus firing the right stuff can mean the difference between an overwhelming win and a close loss. When Koreans use this build, they're always on top of these things, you have Tanks shooting at Sentries/Stalkers, Marines and Banshees focusing Immortals, Scvs buffering Zealots, and so on. That's why Sase can beat it while laddering on EU, and then get 0-3 by MKP using just 1 base all-ins.
All that said, this is still really stupid. You guys say that the player executing perfectly should always win, but that's simply not true for all-ins. I can 4 Gate a Zerg, and have absolutely perfect execution, but if he knows it's coming and prepares well, I'll still lose. This doesn't seem to be true at all for the 1/1/1.
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EPT
