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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 27 2011 07:36 freetgy wrote:
the reason that 1-1-1 is unbalanced is pretty simple and lies in the design of both Protoss and Terran
First Reason
Terran gets High DPS Units out of each of the 3 buildings (rax,fax,port)
this means, going 1-1-1 and producing constantly units will leave you with superior DPS than any protoss build that always also needs to build less dps supporting units.
Second Reason
Protoss can anticipate that, and try to prepare a counter, but here the flexibility of 1-1-1 shines where they can adjust easily and counter the counter.
This makes the proper defense of 1-1-1 so hard prepare.
Third Reason
Easier scouting of Terran and worse Scouting of Protoss makes preparing usually a guessing game for protoss because protoss can not go 1-1-1 like Terran does because both Robo and Starport build very specialised units that can be good when they hit the units they counter but suck when not.
i don't know how to solve this though, may be give protoss better scouting abilities to make preparing the right units easier.
The problem lies not in just some tweaks but in the flexibility of Terran and the raw dps of Terran units that come out of each building.
Agree with the first two but not the third. Terran has equally hard time scouting toss. Against P, you will always see T/Z going all over the place trying to find something hidden, often missing it by an inch. On the other hand, P's fast observer/pheonix/hallucination openings virtually guarantee scouting whatever T/Z may be cooking.
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MLG Pool Play, Kiwikaki vs Puma game 3 has shown us yet another way not to hold a well-controlled, tight version of this build. Kiwikaki did a 2 gate robo expand with a fast observer, then scouted the 1-1-1, canceled the expo, and threw down 2 more gates and a stargate, got 3-4 phoenixes to try to snipe the banshees, cut probes, and got a few immortals and mostly zealots out of the gates. This was a planned response as described by Day9 before the nexus cancel and structure adding, not a panic build.
I think this is a pretty terrible response because... What if the terran just doesn't push and just expands instead? It seems extremely inefficient to have 6 production structures off of 1 base as protoss.
Kiwi could have delayed a bit longer and forced puma to leapfrog a bit more before engaging. Since Puma had pulled his SCVs, reinforcements were coming in faster for Kiwi. One can wonder if it would have made any significant difference, but it would've been nice to see.
I noticed phoenix have a lot of difficulty picking off banshees due to the presence of 30-40 marines below them. At best, they slow down the push, unless the terran makes a micro mistake. Sentries likewise slow down the push by threatening to FF a bunch of marines if they stray too far away from the tanks. Now this requires a micro mistake by the terran as well, and very good FF. Yeah...
Immortals also had difficulty reaching the tanks due to the marines... Maybe the next patch's range buff will help against that. Marines will have less range than immortals next patch, though, so that' might help... but I expect it to be just as difficult to reach the tanks.
Kiwi did better than most at holding the 1-1-1 after opening 2 gate robo, but in the end there were still 20 marines and 3 tanks left and it wasn't even close.
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SC2 is so volatile right now and if I was Blizzard I wouldn't change absolutely anything until HOTS beta hits.
I think the game needs a lot more redesigning and rethinking, but people just won't admit it, because they come to this mindset that if its out right now and there is competition around it, it must be legit.
Also I sincerely hope Kim is not the only balancer on the game and Dustin is not the chief designer for multiplayer.
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did this seriously get resurrected? wtf
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On August 28 2011 11:42 LicH. wrote:
did this seriously get resurrected? wtf
It's still an ongoing strategy that is being used and is very successful.
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It'll get resurrected every time it kills yet another toss, until it's patched :p
Sadly that means 1.4.1 at the earliest!
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On August 28 2011 11:34 BlueyD wrote:
MLG Pool Play, Kiwikaki vs Puma game 3 has shown us yet another way not to hold a well-controlled, tight version of this build. Kiwikaki did a 2 gate robo expand with a fast observer, then scouted the 1-1-1, canceled the expo, and threw down 2 more gates and a stargate, got 3-4 phoenixes to try to snipe the banshees, cut probes, and got a few immortals and mostly zealots out of the gates. This was a planned response as described by Day9 before the nexus cancel and structure adding, not a panic build.
I think this is a pretty terrible response because... What if the terran just doesn't push and just expands instead? It seems extremely inefficient to have 6 production structures off of 1 base as protoss.
Kiwi could have delayed a bit longer and forced puma to leapfrog a bit more before engaging. Since Puma had pulled his SCVs, reinforcements were coming in faster for Kiwi. One can wonder if it would have made any significant difference, but it would've been nice to see.
I noticed phoenix have a lot of difficulty picking off banshees due to the presence of 30-40 marines below them. At best, they slow down the push, unless the terran makes a micro mistake. Sentries likewise slow down the push by threatening to FF a bunch of marines if they stray too far away from the tanks. Now this requires a micro mistake by the terran as well, and very good FF. Yeah...
Immortals also had difficulty reaching the tanks due to the marines... Maybe the next patch's range buff will help against that. Marines will have less range than immortals next patch, though, so that' might help... but I expect it to be just as difficult to reach the tanks.
Kiwi did better than most at holding the 1-1-1 after opening 2 gate robo, but in the end there were still 20 marines and 3 tanks left and it wasn't even close.
That also would've been even more one sided had PuMa scouted the Phoenix and built Vikings instead of Banshees.
I also doubt stalling more would've helped a whole lot. For one, the Terran unit mix becomes even better as the numbers go up. Secondly, he was running out of space to fall back to, and he really doesn't want to let Puma siege in the chokes leading into his natural. Finally, he lost that engagement very decisively. I seriously doubt a minute or two would've changed the result.
It was a good effort, and probably worked very well against NA Terrans. Just not nearly enough against someone of PuMa's caliber.
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On August 28 2011 11:34 BlueyD wrote:
MLG Pool Play, Kiwikaki vs Puma game 3 has shown us yet another way not to hold a well-controlled, tight version of this build. Kiwikaki did a 2 gate robo expand with a fast observer, then scouted the 1-1-1, canceled the expo, and threw down 2 more gates and a stargate, got 3-4 phoenixes to try to snipe the banshees, cut probes, and got a few immortals and mostly zealots out of the gates. This was a planned response as described by Day9 before the nexus cancel and structure adding, not a panic build.
I think this is a pretty terrible response because... What if the terran just doesn't push and just expands instead? It seems extremely inefficient to have 6 production structures off of 1 base as protoss.
Kiwi could have delayed a bit longer and forced puma to leapfrog a bit more before engaging. Since Puma had pulled his SCVs, reinforcements were coming in faster for Kiwi. One can wonder if it would have made any significant difference, but it would've been nice to see.
I noticed phoenix have a lot of difficulty picking off banshees due to the presence of 30-40 marines below them. At best, they slow down the push, unless the terran makes a micro mistake. Sentries likewise slow down the push by threatening to FF a bunch of marines if they stray too far away from the tanks. Now this requires a micro mistake by the terran as well, and very good FF. Yeah...
Immortals also had difficulty reaching the tanks due to the marines... Maybe the next patch's range buff will help against that. Marines will have less range than immortals next patch, though, so that' might help... but I expect it to be just as difficult to reach the tanks.
Kiwi did better than most at holding the 1-1-1 after opening 2 gate robo, but in the end there were still 20 marines and 3 tanks left and it wasn't even close.
111 reinforces 4 marines per production cycle so delaying doesnt really help if ur on 1 base. Pulled scv dont matter because terran has mules.
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I think it's pretty clear that kiwikaki uses really outdated build orders... I believe this is because he spends a lot of his time playing poker and the most efficient way for him to still be competitive is to stick with what he already learned.
But in a serious discussion about 1-1-1 his build isn't really relevant imo.
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I think Puma proved how irrelevant his build was 
Pity that's exactly the kind of bad response that people - including Artosis  - always tell Toss to do. Hopefully people have seen how well that works now.
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I find it ironic that MVP has tweeted his msg against 1/1/1 (in fluent English, no less) when he does 1/1/1 ver 2.0 all the time. (i.e. 2 base 1/1/1) It's equally difficult to defend against 2 base 1/1/1 as to defend against 1 base 1/1/1. The reason why 1 base version is scarier is it is very difficult to scout what's exactly coming. (confirming 1/1/1, then finding out the composition)
2 base version makes it easier to scout, but as long as the map allows - relatively straight forward rout to Protoss natural, hard to take 3rd, etc. - 2 base version packs even more firepower than 1 base version.
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To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build.
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On August 28 2011 11:48 HoMM wrote:
111 reinforces 4 marines per production cycle so delaying doesnt really help if ur on 1 base. Pulled scv dont matter because terran has mules.
In fact the only reason Terran even makes SCVs is for meat shields in battles. One OC gives both infinite minerals and constant map vision because scans are free too.
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On August 28 2011 11:55 Tokadub wrote:
To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but marines against what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build.
The only way that argument works is if Puma had engaged with some degree of brilliance. However, the 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off. It's an all-in that is stupidly easy to perform and stupidly hard to counter. That's the issue with it. It's not impossible to hold off, just so hard to that Protoss suffers immensely against it.
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On August 28 2011 11:55 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:48 HoMM wrote:
111 reinforces 4 marines per production cycle so delaying doesnt really help if ur on 1 base. Pulled scv dont matter because terran has mules. In fact the only reason Terran even makes SCVs is for meat shields in battles. One OC gives both infinite minerals and constant map vision because scans are free too.
Oh, yeah man! Scans are free... especially when you have infinite minerals because OCs obviously give 10 energy per second. Of course it makes it obvious that we would have constant map vision off 1 OC.
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I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game.
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On August 28 2011 11:55 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:48 HoMM wrote:
111 reinforces 4 marines per production cycle so delaying doesnt really help if ur on 1 base. Pulled scv dont matter because terran has mules. In fact the only reason Terran even makes SCVs is for meat shields in battles. One OC gives both infinite minerals and constant map vision because scans are free too.
He is not whining he is explaining how the 111 production capabilities works. No need to be an asshole.
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On August 28 2011 11:34 BlueyD wrote:
I think this is a pretty terrible response because... What if the terran just doesn't push and just expands instead? It seems extremely inefficient to have 6 production structures off of 1 base as protoss.
This simply doesn't make any sense.
The longer the Protoss stalls the rush, the greater the advantage since Terran brought like half of his SCVs. Even with MULEs, Protoss will have a higher income. which will translate over time in less units for Terran.
There is no way the Terran can just throw down an expansion AND keep the rush going, especially in this case were Kiwi had a Robo (meaning he needs to assume the Protoss will have observers, even after sniping one).
Also, if the Terran just decides not to push, the obvious thing is to expand yourself. One thing is certain... You will never end up with a disadvantage.
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On August 28 2011 12:06 Tokadub wrote:
I just can't take protoss complaints about all ins seriously considering almost every master league protoss I play on the NA ladder either does a 4 gate or a 3 gate/stargate all in. They generally all cut probe production, have low apm, and clearly abuse powerful protoss all ins as the only way they are in master league.
And a 4 gate you pretty much just attack move and maybe throw down a gaurdian shield and force fields... I would argue this is even an easier build to execute then the 1/1/1.
Sure the 1/1/1 is powerful but it is definitely stoppable, protoss just apparently haven't figured it out yet as Kiwi clearly demonstrated in his unbelievably bad defense that game.
No one is particularly complaining about this happening at lower levels. It's ridiculous how much better you have to play than Terran to hold it, but it is possible.
As with all balance issues this is about the highest level, where even the very best Protoss players get kerbstomped by a 1base allin. That really shouldn't be possible.
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On August 28 2011 12:01 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:55 Tokadub wrote:
To be honest Kiwi engaged that battle horribly. There was no reason to engage at that time, and it was at a very poor angle limiting his surface area. He should of waited until the terran was pretty close to his main especially since he had pulled 12 scvs, a couple more round of protoss production would have helped a lot.
He also horribly botched his force fields, he left a majority of the marines behind the force fields and he blocked his own zealots. He attacked into a narrow funnel next to the golds destructible debris causing his zealots to get hit by massive amounts of splash damage. He should of waited until the terran was in the wide open area by his natural and gone for an attack angle which would allow his zealots to all attack at the same time. Instead he had almost no zealots attacking and them so clumped they got hit by tons of splash damage.
Also he didn't use his pheonix to pick up the tanks instead targeting banshees. This was a horrible choice he had 4 pheonix if i remember correctly that could of been enough to pick up 4 tanks making it nothing but marines against what should of been trapped marines if he had good force fields. Once the tanks land they get owned by zealots at close range and the pheonix can engage the banshees obviously...
In summary he horribly botched the attack and if he would of done it properly he could of easily held the "OP" 1/1/1 build. The only way that argument works is if Puma had engaged with some degree of brilliance. However, the 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off. It's an all-in that is stupidly easy to perform and stupidly hard to counter. That's the issue with it. It's not impossible to hold off, just so hard to that Protoss suffers immensely against it.
It actually is impossible to hold off for the protoss. The only way for protoss to hold it off is for the terran to make mistakes which is the sad part of this build. It was basically like 5 rax reapers pre-patch, zerg couldn't win the game but the terran player had to lose it. This is actually the definition of imbalance (which is misused quite a bit). Something is only imbalanced when it isn't even in your hands to change the results.
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EPT
