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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:54 Elwar wrote: Not really, since the immortals are been killed primarily by the marines. Not talking about the 1-1-1 specifically, just stating that 8 dmg instead of 10 v voids/col/tanks is pretty significant, | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
That makes the hi-lighting even more worthless. I mean they say that the hilighted posters just need to stand out in the crowd of worthless comments, but I find their opinions to be just as subjective and bold (no good backup) as the average comment. On August 28 2011 13:45 dooraven wrote: No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big. Immortals will still take the same damage from marines, the main damage dealer towards them. On August 28 2011 13:41 jinorazi wrote: sentry also helps with guardian shield vs tank splash. No, From Liquipedia: The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction. If you look at the OP's pictures you quickly see that there aren't that many resources to spend, and while you may think "I'll be able to counter it with a single robo and six collosi", that means that you will have no defense in the early game. I'm not even talking about whether it's possible to get six collosi out at that point. The question then becomes: what protoss unit can adequately counter the marine in the early game? Well zealots with leg speed, guardian shield, and an armor upgrade on the way seem like a good idea to me. (zealot armor = 1, guardian shield = 2, 1 armor will negate marine +1 attack, 3 damage per hit, and no kiting). Just leave some zealots outside so you can flank, and keep the medivac energy low with something like feedback once the terran gets too many. Just some theorycraft. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:01 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: That makes the hi-lighting even more worthless. I mean they say that the hilighted posters just need to stand out in the crowd of worthless comments, but I find their opinions to be just as subjective and bold (no good backup) as the average comment. Immortals will still take the same damage from marines, the main damage dealer towards them. No, From Liquipedia: If you look at the OP's pictures you quickly see that there aren't that many resources to spend, and while you may think "I'll be able to counter it with a single robo and six collosi", that means that you will have no defense in the early game. I'm not even talking about whether it's possible to get six collosi out at that point. The question then becomes: what protoss unit can adequately counter the marine in the early game? Well zealots with leg speed, guardian shield, and an armor upgrade on the way seem like a good idea to me. (zealot armor = 1, guardian shield = 2, 1 armor will negate marine +1 attack, 3 damage per hit, and no kiting). Just leave some zealots outside so you can flank, and keep the medivac energy low with something like feedback once the terran gets too many. Just some theorycraft. Liquipedia is right until the patch takes effect(which is what we are talking about). Also Zealot with guardian shield+ armor doesnt do well because of well... banshees. If you use your gas for charge+twilight council+templars for feedback+ sentry for guardian, no way in hell will you have enough for stalkers to shoot down the banshees. As of yet, I haven't read a decent response better than MC's plan to get blink stalkers, put up a hidden expo and go for a base race. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
That marine count keeps building, even with 6-7 SCV's and Mules at their base, that is all they need to pump Marines non-stop, eventually it just gets to a point where if you stalled a enough you just lose anyway because you don't have any AOE to deal with them and they disintegrate your army with absurd DPS You see people always say X should have FF'd better in those situations, but when the Marine ball is big enough, how do you get close enough to wrap the ball with FF's without getting target fired by Tanks? And if you don't FF at all you get endlessly kited by the Marines and the Zealots end up doing nothing  | ||
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Thobrik
Sweden1120 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:07 sekritzzz wrote: Liquipedia is right until the patch takes effect(which is what we are talking about). Also Zealot with guardian shield+ armor doesnt do well because of well... banshees. If you use your gas for charge+twilight council+templars for feedback+ sentry for guardian, no way in hell will you have enough for stalkers to shoot down the banshees. As of yet, I haven't read a decent response better than MC's plan to get blink stalkers, put up a hidden expo and go for a base race. How about feedbacking the banshees as well? | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
On August 28 2011 13:22 Leoneri wrote: Hmm. I thought TL had implemented a feature where pro player's names were highlighted so people didn't have to scroll through pages and pages checking each name to find somebody's opinion that actually meant something. TL doesnt highlight anyone because they are a pro, they highlight that get noticed for keeping TL rules and writing constructive posts and top notch threads. | ||
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wats0n
United States509 Posts
This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
Starcraft is an RTS not a build vs build game or some variation of rock paper scissors (despite how you might feel at times) A build is typically a means of transitioning into the mid game where micro and on the fly decision making should grant you the victory. Any build that says well if my opponent just does X then I lose is by most standard measures a bad build (Yes some builds invoke a reaction but they should not just up and lose if you respond in a correct manner) Now this specific build happens to be an "All-In" and Also happens to be extremely flexible in its adjustments to the opponent which means assuming terran reacts to Protoss's reaction terran is yet again in the lead as far as push strength is concerned. This small fact inflates the win rate drastically to probably over 50% given the previously mentioned Push strength. Now the issue of balance, this push uses marines,hellions, banshee,tanks,ravens,viking.... All of which have the ratio changed based on how protoss reacts, meaning without nerfing them all how can they nerf the push?? Any nerf to any one of the units only makes Protoss's chances of defending better given that specific build response (almost build vs build) Through that convoluted post I would conclude with yes I feel the push is Imba, No I dont think blizzard can directly nerf any aspect of it without have residual damage to other match ups. Ultimately I feel a small shift in the meta is needed from Toss. Maybe hallucination scouting before we pick are tech path if we are uncertain of whats coming are way? Maybe a counter all-In before the expo if we know its coming? Just my 2cents from a Masters Toss (Btw my best chances of fending have always been a super rush to collosi with 5 gates or if I opened citadel 6 gate charge) | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote: Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income. This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point. To perfection? Puma was playing poorly against Kiwikaki the entire series, constantly missing SCV's and Supply depos. mTw|Naruto was saying how poorly he played it out. The end fight had 12-15 marines still surviving. Even if he had a perfect cup of FF's the Marines still would have survived, that is too much DPS | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote: Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income. This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point. Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close. On August 28 2011 14:11 Thobrik wrote: How about feedbacking the banshees as well? Well feedback is good on banshees but how many templars are you realistically going to have(with low energy btw) when you spent gas on getting templars on one base and need to be ready by the 9-10 min mark. Not to mention you need some anti-air for the surviving banshees. | ||
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wats0n
United States509 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote: In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated. I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields. It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes. | ||
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wats0n
United States509 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:24 sekritzzz wrote: Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close. Kiwi had the higher income per minute and more production facilities and Puma wasn't even close to his base. He could have easily forced Puma to wait another two minutes to crawl his tanks and on top of that Kiwi already had enough to deal with it but he mismanaged it. He forced the engagement and wrecked himself. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote: I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields. It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes. How much time do you think is necessary for protoss to figure this build out? This build has been out since beta btw. except with the recent void ray nerf/wp nerf it became popular again because void ray all ins was what put a stop to it. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote: I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields. It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes. He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:30 Amui wrote: He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference. Exactly, pretty telling sign that better FF's wouldn't have done anything if some of the Marines he did manage to catch still survived | ||
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wats0n
United States509 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:30 Amui wrote: He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference. He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong. He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:27 wats0n wrote: Kiwi had the higher income per minute and more production facilities and Puma wasn't even close to his base. He could have easily forced Puma to wait another two minutes to crawl his tanks and on top of that Kiwi already had enough to deal with it but he mismanaged it. He forced the engagement and wrecked himself. Higher income doesn't even make that big of a difference. Terran units get exponentially better the more there is of them whilst protoss units which kiwikaki was getting get exponentially worst(blocking each other/more clumped up). By the time your 2 minutes are up, Puma would have had 5+ tanks, a few bunkers in Kiwi's natural. theres no way kiwi was going to beat that. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the point of production facilities. If anything its a bad thing. Its income sunk into buildings which is not units. there is no way kiwikaki can support 3/4 gates, 1 robo and a stargate on 1 base. | ||
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wats0n
United States509 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:37 sekritzzz wrote: Higher income doesn't even make that big of a difference. Terran units get exponentially better the more there is of them whilst protoss units which kiwikaki was getting get exponentially worst. By the time your 2 minutes are up, Puma would have had 5+ tanks, a few bunkers in Kiwi's natural. theres no way kiwi was going to beat that. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the point of production facilities. If anything its a bad thing. its income sunk into buildings which is not units. there is no way kiwikaki can support 3/4 gates, 1 robo and a stargate on 1 base. More units off 1/1/1? Okay, I'm done. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:36 wats0n wrote: He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong. He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself. Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that? You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left. Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped. As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy | ||
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