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Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 133

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST
dooraven
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2820 Posts
August 28 2011 04:58 GMT
#2641
On August 28 2011 13:54 Elwar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:45 dooraven wrote:
No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big.

Not really, since the immortals are been killed primarily by the marines.


Not talking about the 1-1-1 specifically, just stating that 8 dmg instead of 10 v voids/col/tanks is pretty significant,
Go go Alliance.
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
August 28 2011 05:01 GMT
#2642
On August 28 2011 13:28 Leoneri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:25 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:22 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:16 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:13 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:11 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:05 Tokadub wrote:
Ya actually I am and have been a Master in every division for every season. I have played all races, and can play them all easily at a master level 1v1.

I don't understand why people are hating. I'm actually giving you very good advice and if you don't understand what I'm saying then it is you that actually has a faulty understanding of this game...

master isn't an achievement


Shouldn't you be a highlighted poster?

what's a highlighted poster lol

Hmm. I thought TL had implemented a feature where pro player's names were highlighted so people didn't have to scroll through pages and pages checking each name to find somebody's opinion that actually meant something.

oh I think these players are those who participate a lot in the strategy section so they get highlighted, such as minigun right?

Oh that makes more sense, my fault.

That makes the hi-lighting even more worthless. I mean they say that the hilighted posters just need to stand out in the crowd of worthless comments, but I find their opinions to be just as subjective and bold (no good backup) as the average comment.


On August 28 2011 13:45 dooraven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:43 CortoMontez wrote:
AFAIK that was a bug fix, and a reduction from 35 damage to 33 damage in a limited area is hardly a significant change.


No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big.

Immortals will still take the same damage from marines, the main damage dealer towards them.

On August 28 2011 13:41 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:37 CortoMontez wrote:
Personally I suspect that patch 1.4 wasn't intended to address the 1-1-1, since Blizzard would have spent a lot of time since the last patch coming up with these ideas, whilst the 1-1-1 issue only came up a few weeks before the PTR notes were released.

The only two parts of the patch which could affect the 1-1-1 are:
5 second build time increase on barracks; which in my opinion won't have any effect upon the potency of the 1-1-1 because there is such a large timing window where this build wins that a 5 second delay will make no difference.

+1 range on immortals; I also think this will have no effect upon the ability of protoss to hold off the 1-1-1, since it seemed that the main problem wasn't that immortals couldn't reach the tanks , but that the immortals melted so fast to the marines. Although the immortals would outrange marines, there will almost definitely be marines INFRONT of the tanks, meaning that they still have to go into marine attack range to kill the tanks.

EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point).


sentry also helps with guardian shield vs tank splash.

No,
From Liquipedia:
The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction.




If you look at the OP's pictures you quickly see that there aren't that many resources to spend, and while you may think "I'll be able to counter it with a single robo and six collosi", that means that you will have no defense in the early game. I'm not even talking about whether it's possible to get six collosi out at that point. The question then becomes: what protoss unit can adequately counter the marine in the early game? Well zealots with leg speed, guardian shield, and an armor upgrade on the way seem like a good idea to me. (zealot armor = 1, guardian shield = 2, 1 armor will negate marine +1 attack, 3 damage per hit, and no kiting). Just leave some zealots outside so you can flank, and keep the medivac energy low with something like feedback once the terran gets too many.

Just some theorycraft.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:09:37
August 28 2011 05:07 GMT
#2643
On August 28 2011 14:01 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:28 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:25 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:22 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:16 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:13 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:11 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:05 Tokadub wrote:
Ya actually I am and have been a Master in every division for every season. I have played all races, and can play them all easily at a master level 1v1.

I don't understand why people are hating. I'm actually giving you very good advice and if you don't understand what I'm saying then it is you that actually has a faulty understanding of this game...

master isn't an achievement


Shouldn't you be a highlighted poster?

what's a highlighted poster lol

Hmm. I thought TL had implemented a feature where pro player's names were highlighted so people didn't have to scroll through pages and pages checking each name to find somebody's opinion that actually meant something.

oh I think these players are those who participate a lot in the strategy section so they get highlighted, such as minigun right?

Oh that makes more sense, my fault.

That makes the hi-lighting even more worthless. I mean they say that the hilighted posters just need to stand out in the crowd of worthless comments, but I find their opinions to be just as subjective and bold (no good backup) as the average comment.


Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:45 dooraven wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:43 CortoMontez wrote:
AFAIK that was a bug fix, and a reduction from 35 damage to 33 damage in a limited area is hardly a significant change.


No but Immortals taking 8 damage instead of 10 is actually pretty big.

Immortals will still take the same damage from marines, the main damage dealer towards them.

Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:41 jinorazi wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:37 CortoMontez wrote:
Personally I suspect that patch 1.4 wasn't intended to address the 1-1-1, since Blizzard would have spent a lot of time since the last patch coming up with these ideas, whilst the 1-1-1 issue only came up a few weeks before the PTR notes were released.

The only two parts of the patch which could affect the 1-1-1 are:
5 second build time increase on barracks; which in my opinion won't have any effect upon the potency of the 1-1-1 because there is such a large timing window where this build wins that a 5 second delay will make no difference.

+1 range on immortals; I also think this will have no effect upon the ability of protoss to hold off the 1-1-1, since it seemed that the main problem wasn't that immortals couldn't reach the tanks , but that the immortals melted so fast to the marines. Although the immortals would outrange marines, there will almost definitely be marines INFRONT of the tanks, meaning that they still have to go into marine attack range to kill the tanks.

EDIT: Also, the main reason that i think the 1-1-1 is imbalanced is because it is uniquely unable to be blind countered, since as far as I know there is a blind counter build to every other all-in in the game. (Feel free to correct me on this point).


sentry also helps with guardian shield vs tank splash.

No,
From Liquipedia:
Show nested quote +
The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction.




If you look at the OP's pictures you quickly see that there aren't that many resources to spend, and while you may think "I'll be able to counter it with a single robo and six collosi", that means that you will have no defense in the early game. I'm not even talking about whether it's possible to get six collosi out at that point. The question then becomes: what protoss unit can adequately counter the marine in the early game? Well zealots with leg speed, guardian shield, and an armor upgrade on the way seem like a good idea to me. (zealot armor = 1, guardian shield = 2, 1 armor will negate marine +1 attack, 3 damage per hit, and no kiting). Just leave some zealots outside so you can flank, and keep the medivac energy low with something like feedback once the terran gets too many.

Just some theorycraft.

Liquipedia is right until the patch takes effect(which is what we are talking about). Also Zealot with guardian shield+ armor doesnt do well because of well... banshees. If you use your gas for charge+twilight council+templars for feedback+ sentry for guardian, no way in hell will you have enough for stalkers to shoot down the banshees.


As of yet, I haven't read a decent response better than MC's plan to get blink stalkers, put up a hidden expo and go for a base race.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:15:22
August 28 2011 05:10 GMT
#2644
I've been watching more and more Colossus-less one base. They work decently if the Terran pushes out and keeps pushing, but you manage to hold them off for awhile...but the longer and longer the game goes the harder it gets.

That marine count keeps building, even with 6-7 SCV's and Mules at their base, that is all they need to pump Marines non-stop, eventually it just gets to a point where if you stalled a enough you just lose anyway because you don't have any AOE to deal with them and they disintegrate your army with absurd DPS

You see people always say X should have FF'd better in those situations, but when the Marine ball is big enough, how do you get close enough to wrap the ball with FF's without getting target fired by Tanks? And if you don't FF at all you get endlessly kited by the Marines and the Zealots end up doing nothing
Thobrik
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1120 Posts
August 28 2011 05:11 GMT
#2645
On August 28 2011 14:07 sekritzzz wrote:

Liquipedia is right until the patch takes effect(which is what we are talking about). Also Zealot with guardian shield+ armor doesnt do well because of well... banshees. If you use your gas for charge+twilight council+templars for feedback+ sentry for guardian, no way in hell will you have enough for stalkers to shoot down the banshees.


As of yet, I haven't read a decent response better than MC's plan to get blink stalkers, put up a hidden expo and go for a base race.


How about feedbacking the banshees as well?
"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may never be questioned."
VTPerfect
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
August 28 2011 05:13 GMT
#2646
On August 28 2011 13:22 Leoneri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 13:16 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:13 Leoneri wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:11 ReignFayth wrote:
On August 28 2011 13:05 Tokadub wrote:
Ya actually I am and have been a Master in every division for every season. I have played all races, and can play them all easily at a master level 1v1.

I don't understand why people are hating. I'm actually giving you very good advice and if you don't understand what I'm saying then it is you that actually has a faulty understanding of this game...

master isn't an achievement


Shouldn't you be a highlighted poster?

what's a highlighted poster lol

Hmm. I thought TL had implemented a feature where pro player's names were highlighted so people didn't have to scroll through pages and pages checking each name to find somebody's opinion that actually meant something.


TL doesnt highlight anyone because they are a pro, they highlight that get noticed for keeping TL rules and writing constructive posts and top notch threads.
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:14:30
August 28 2011 05:14 GMT
#2647
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.
Parodoxx
Profile Joined May 2010
United States549 Posts
August 28 2011 05:15 GMT
#2648
If a BUILD has even a 20% win rate is it not imbalanced?

Starcraft is an RTS not a build vs build game or some variation of rock paper scissors (despite how you might feel at times) A build is typically a means of transitioning into the mid game where micro and on the fly decision making should grant you the victory.

Any build that says well if my opponent just does X then I lose is by most standard measures a bad build (Yes some builds invoke a reaction but they should not just up and lose if you respond in a correct manner)

Now this specific build happens to be an "All-In" and Also happens to be extremely flexible in its adjustments to the opponent which means assuming terran reacts to Protoss's reaction terran is yet again in the lead as far as push strength is concerned. This small fact inflates the win rate drastically to probably over 50% given the previously mentioned Push strength.

Now the issue of balance, this push uses marines,hellions, banshee,tanks,ravens,viking.... All of which have the ratio changed based on how protoss reacts, meaning without nerfing them all how can they nerf the push?? Any nerf to any one of the units only makes Protoss's chances of defending better given that specific build response (almost build vs build)

Through that convoluted post I would conclude with yes I feel the push is Imba, No I dont think blizzard can directly nerf any aspect of it without have residual damage to other match ups. Ultimately I feel a small shift in the meta is needed from Toss. Maybe hallucination scouting before we pick are tech path if we are uncertain of whats coming are way? Maybe a counter all-In before the expo if we know its coming?
Just my 2cents from a Masters Toss (Btw my best chances of fending have always been a super rush to collosi with 5 gates or if I opened citadel 6 gate charge)
susySquark
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1692 Posts
August 28 2011 05:19 GMT
#2649
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
August 28 2011 05:23 GMT
#2650
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote:
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.

To perfection? Puma was playing poorly against Kiwikaki the entire series, constantly missing SCV's and Supply depos. mTw|Naruto was saying how poorly he played it out.

The end fight had 12-15 marines still surviving. Even if he had a perfect cup of FF's the Marines still would have survived, that is too much DPS
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:25:47
August 28 2011 05:24 GMT
#2651
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote:
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.

Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close.


On August 28 2011 14:11 Thobrik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:07 sekritzzz wrote:

Liquipedia is right until the patch takes effect(which is what we are talking about). Also Zealot with guardian shield+ armor doesnt do well because of well... banshees. If you use your gas for charge+twilight council+templars for feedback+ sentry for guardian, no way in hell will you have enough for stalkers to shoot down the banshees.


As of yet, I haven't read a decent response better than MC's plan to get blink stalkers, put up a hidden expo and go for a base race.


How about feedbacking the banshees as well?

Well feedback is good on banshees but how many templars are you realistically going to have(with low energy btw) when you spent gas on getting templars on one base and need to be ready by the 9-10 min mark. Not to mention you need some anti-air for the surviving banshees.
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
August 28 2011 05:24 GMT
#2652
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
August 28 2011 05:27 GMT
#2653
On August 28 2011 14:24 sekritzzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote:
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.

Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close.



Kiwi had the higher income per minute and more production facilities and Puma wasn't even close to his base. He could have easily forced Puma to wait another two minutes to crawl his tanks and on top of that Kiwi already had enough to deal with it but he mismanaged it. He forced the engagement and wrecked himself.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
August 28 2011 05:28 GMT
#2654
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.

How much time do you think is necessary for protoss to figure this build out? This build has been out since beta btw. except with the recent void ray nerf/wp nerf it became popular again because void ray all ins was what put a stop to it.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 28 2011 05:30 GMT
#2655
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.


He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
August 28 2011 05:35 GMT
#2656
On August 28 2011 14:30 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.


He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.


Exactly, pretty telling sign that better FF's wouldn't have done anything if some of the Marines he did manage to catch still survived
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:36:54
August 28 2011 05:36 GMT
#2657
On August 28 2011 14:30 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.


He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.


He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.

He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 05:40:26
August 28 2011 05:37 GMT
#2658
On August 28 2011 14:27 wats0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:24 sekritzzz wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote:
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.

Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close.



Kiwi had the higher income per minute and more production facilities and Puma wasn't even close to his base. He could have easily forced Puma to wait another two minutes to crawl his tanks and on top of that Kiwi already had enough to deal with it but he mismanaged it. He forced the engagement and wrecked himself.

Higher income doesn't even make that big of a difference. Terran units get exponentially better the more there is of them whilst protoss units which kiwikaki was getting get exponentially worst(blocking each other/more clumped up). By the time your 2 minutes are up, Puma would have had 5+ tanks, a few bunkers in Kiwi's natural. theres no way kiwi was going to beat that. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the point of production facilities. If anything its a bad thing. Its income sunk into buildings which is not units. there is no way kiwikaki can support 3/4 gates, 1 robo and a stargate on 1 base.
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
August 28 2011 05:39 GMT
#2659
On August 28 2011 14:37 sekritzzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:27 wats0n wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:24 sekritzzz wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:14 wats0n wrote:
Don't know if people talked about Kiwi vs. Puma today but one of the best terrans in the world executed this build to perfection on the perfect map for it and Kiwi was actually in the better position during the engagement but he lost due to poor force fields. He also could have delayed the engagement and waited for more units because he had better income.

This shit is way overhyped. It's not a coincidence that this only became an issue after a couple Koreans tweeted about it. It's more myth than fact at this point.

Were you even watching the same game I was watching? Forcefields were certainly not going to win him the game. If i remember correctly, Puma didn't even bother microing the marines to kite. If you're going to put any blame on kiwikaki, it was probably getting phoenix. He was expecting puma to leave his banshees open for picking like most NA players will probably do on his ladder, but this is a decent korean. The game wasn't even close.



Kiwi had the higher income per minute and more production facilities and Puma wasn't even close to his base. He could have easily forced Puma to wait another two minutes to crawl his tanks and on top of that Kiwi already had enough to deal with it but he mismanaged it. He forced the engagement and wrecked himself.

Higher income doesn't even make that big of a difference. Terran units get exponentially better the more there is of them whilst protoss units which kiwikaki was getting get exponentially worst. By the time your 2 minutes are up, Puma would have had 5+ tanks, a few bunkers in Kiwi's natural. theres no way kiwi was going to beat that. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the point of production facilities. If anything its a bad thing. its income sunk into buildings which is not units. there is no way kiwikaki can support 3/4 gates, 1 robo and a stargate on 1 base.


More units off 1/1/1? Okay, I'm done.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
August 28 2011 05:42 GMT
#2660
On August 28 2011 14:36 wats0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 14:30 Amui wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:
On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated.


I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields.

It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes.


He could've had every single marine in an ball cupped in perfect forcefields and he still would've lost that engagement. Kiwi didn't even kill all the marines in front of the forcefields, let alone the tanks. Go rewatch that if you can, because Kiwi had probably 20-30 seconds before Puma would've forced an engagement or else basetrade. One more round of warpins wouldn't have made a difference.


He didn't kill all the marines because he forcefielded his immortals out of range of the tanks and took too much damage and lost everything. And you're flat out wrong about Puma being able to tank crawl from the middle of XNC to his base. It would take another two minutes and Kiwi had forcefields so it would have to be a crawl so don't argue otherwise. Sorry but you're just wrong.

He should not have engaged. He had way better income and more production facilities. He screwed himself.

Look at how many Marines survived. How in the world could you kill all that?

You can't even support 4warpgates constantly warping in Zealots with a one base economy. Puma had more than enough Income to support constant marine production with what little he had left.

Without AOE, you cannot beat a Large marine ball with Zealots. Zealot vs Marine does not scale 1:1, as you go up in population the battle becomes more and more lop sided towards the Marines. And when the Marine ball gets too big, there is no way to get your Immortals to attack the tanks nor is it possible to FF them all without getting all your sentries sniped.

As Naruto was saying, if Puma just delayed his push, made a few medivacs instead of pulling all his SCV's, what in the world could have Kiwi done to hold that off? There is no time for Protoss to tech to Colossus or Templar without dieing on one base :S You just don't have the economy
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