EPTThat was until it died a couple years ago. The BGH community will really never come close to it again.
[R] High level BGH replays - Page 2
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tfeign
United States2979 Posts
That was until it died a couple years ago. The BGH community will really never come close to it again. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:44 tfeign wrote: That's such a bullshit statement. I've honestly played money map more than I played non money in my Starcraft career. To go from a D level player to a B level player on non money is about 10 times harder (and 10 is not an exaggerated number) than it is to go from a D level fastest/money player to a B level fastest/money player. On my 3rd year of playing money, I can honestly claim that I could beat 99.9% of any money player. There's less than a handful amount of players I know of that had outplayed me on BGH. In my 3rd year of playing non money, I am still far behind a B level player. If demand is high enough, I may write up a guide to playing BGH someday. But seriously, the learning curve and time required until mastery is just not even comparable between a money and nonmoney map. Anything from strategy, micro, macro, decision-making, speed, creativity, and execution on a money map completely pales in comparision to a non money map. Agreed, but your example is kind of bad. Just because u can beat 99% of money map players after playing a bit doesn't mean that u can *master* it that fast. There is probably tons to be learned strategy wise on money maps but the people who play them frequently to get good are alot less and the people who play it competetivly are pretty dam few in number;O That's the biggest reason why its so easy to get in the top 5% so fast. No one has really taken the time to master it or to get better if they are already on top. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
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tfeign
United States2979 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:58 OverTheUnder wrote: Agreed, but your example is kind of bad. Just because u can beat 99% of money map players after playing a bit doesn't mean that u can *master* it that fast. There is probably tons to be learned strategy wise on money maps but the people who play them frequently to get good are alot less and the people who play it competetivly are pretty dam few in number;O That's the biggest reason why its so easy to get in the top 5% so fast. No one has really taken the time to master it or to get better if they are already on top. No, there are not tons of to be learned strategies on money maps. In competitive play, there is only a few small amount of builds that are actually viable when playing against a player of very high level. Sure, there's a ton of builds that one can use to humiliate newbies, but almost all of them will not work against anyone highly skilled. Playing it safe is really the only way to win on a money map on competitive play due to the fact that scouting is so simple to do on a money map. There's really no room for surprises when your oppononent can always scout and see what you are going for. The same is not true in nonmoney. | ||
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tfeign
United States2979 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:03 HeadBangaa wrote: I doubt it. At higher levels, protoss is the only race viable for money maps. The high unit cost is no longer in play, and it sets the race balance far out of whack. Maybe if unit build times/HP/cost were slightly adjusted, these maps would allow for more variety. If you play money maps, Protoss IS the only viable race at high level. Terran can give protoss a run for its money sometimes if T can play perfectly, but a perfect P is >>>>>> than a perfect T P > T > Z | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:03 HeadBangaa wrote: I doubt it. At higher levels, protoss is the only race viable for money maps. The high unit cost is no longer in play, and it sets the race balance far out of whack. Maybe if unit build times/HP/cost were slightly adjusted, these maps would allow for more variety. agreed, but thats alot more for fpm then bgh. Early on the differences wont be as bad and that should be enough time to secure 2 bases so that they have all the min, gas they need. I could see zerg having many problems at a competitive lvl but i think terran could get by. edit: tfeign basically summed it upT_T | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:44 tfeign wrote: That's such a bullshit statement. I've honestly played money map more than I played non money in my Starcraft career. To go from a D level player to a B level player on non money is about 10 times harder (and 10 is not an exaggerated number) than it is to go from a D level fastest/money player to a B level fastest/money player. On my 3rd year of playing money, I can honestly claim that I could beat 99.9% of any money player. There's less than a handful amount of players I know of that had outplayed me on BGH. In my 3rd year of playing non money, I am still far behind a B level player. If demand is high enough, I may write up a guide to playing BGH someday. But seriously, the learning curve and time required until mastery is just not even comparable between a money and nonmoney map. Anything from strategy, micro, macro, decision-making, speed, creativity, and execution on a money map completely pales in comparision to a non money map. Most of that can be attributed to the fact that there's far less competition in money maps. Of course you're going to progress up the ranks faster, because everybody there is really, really bad. But if you think you've "mastered" money maps, I can assure you that you haven't, and if you think that it's any easier to become a "master' of money maps, I can assure you that you're wrong. There are more resources, and the terrain is simplified, but it's still the same game that we're talking about. I would hardly consider myself an advocate of money maps, in fact I absolutely hate them. But I'm also smart enough to realize that it's essentially the same game being played when you get down to bare bones, and if it seems any easier to me, I know it's only because I've surrounded myself with really shitty players. | ||
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tfeign
United States2979 Posts
Sure, nonmoney players may be playing on ladders such as PGT, or play games privately with friends. However the majority of money games are 3v3, meaning that one 3v3 0 Clutter game for example, consists of 3 times the amount of players in it than a 1v1LT, even though they both count as 1 game. The pool of players in money and nonmoney is close. Mastering a money map really only requires knowledge of the game and speed. Micro on money is mostly attack move. Macro isn't just learning how to create a big army as fast as possible; it's learning how to use up your resources most effectively, build orders, timing of expansions, knowing what units to build (ratio of a certain unit to another) Strategy on money is almost nonexistent. You can always tell what your opponent is going for because scouting can be done so easily on money. You cannot expect to surprise an A-level money map player with an unorthodox build. There's tons of room for mistakes. Losing a big battle due to carelessness in midgame on a money map will not hurt you nowhere near the magnitude it does on a non money map. Really, mastering money maps is not hard. All top level money players essentially use the same builds over and over. There's no creativity. No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. Importance of scouting is minimal. Micro is almost nonexistent compared to nonmoney. Macro is simplified to making a ton of buildings and units, as opposed to critical expansion timing, effective build orders, effective unit allocation. Once midgame starts rolling, there's so much money to be used that one can make expansions any time they feel like it and secure it with cannons. On nonmoney, one has to sometimes decide whether or not making cannons to protect a certain expansion will be a worthwhile investment. The game becomes oversimplified to whoever clicks faster over an extended period of time. You really cannot attack your opponent anywhere other than straight in the front once midgame starts rolling. Lose a base? Just build another. There's no concepts of harassment on money maps. Try to kill a high level protoss or terran player on a money map with mass drops as zerg-you'll fail 100% of the time. Try to muta-rush a protoss to death on a money map-It won't happen. There's so much money to be used that players can always play perfectly safe from all types of cheese. | ||
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WhizKid77
China682 Posts
so for bgh i'd say the goal should be to reach 200/200 asap by balancing risk with potential growth. this means: zerg - do something like 9 or 12 pool with harass while getting 3-4 hatches if u can, or sunken if u scout any rushes. then go whatever u want - mass hydra or ultra, etc toss - try forge + dual or triple nexus into 20-30 gates or carrier (be careful about terran), or hardcore 4-5 gate zeal terran - 6-8rax mass mnm or fast vult facts into tank. things like cliff drops on bgh really won't work at higher levels. like always, in team games build orders aren't as important as keeping the same flow with your teammates - coordinate your attacks so u can pump men when u need it, or econ when u dont (esp zerg). about matchups: if you are terran and zerg heavy (tzz, ttz), u prob want to turtle and build up a bit. if you have protoss and zerg support, u can try rushing/gaining map control. if all 6 players are skilled, it really comes down to controlling the middle. if everyone is near 200/200, the terran player becomes really key, unless the zergs can use swarm well. protoss becomes the mainstream of the army, with psi storming as key. but a lot of this doesn't matter as it might become just a battle of bandwidth and flow/tug of war (who has more gates, facts, etc to throw men at each other faster) | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
but thats a given i guessT_T | ||
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d4d
Switzerland1066 Posts
On December 26 2005 22:18 EvilTeletubby wrote: You're in the wrong place buddy. That was true, but now I hope he stuck around to read the above. The BGH/fastest/0clutter community of starcraft player may not be elite, but they ARE the casual players by excellence. I don't have the actual numbers, but one could guess they probablly total 50% of the amount of starcraft games played every day. These games are the equivalent of the 1 on 1 in the backyard or the football game after the sunday dinner to many people. Those people watch the starcraft games on TV if there is any. So they are the audience of the "gosu" community, and audience deserve respect. | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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SoDrunk
United Kingdom291 Posts
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akaDave
111 Posts
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XtaC_hiryu
Philippines125 Posts
On December 26 2005 23:59 GTR-2-Go wrote: bgh is kinda disrepected in our teamlqiuid community, so what the hell are you talking about Really? Why would you disrespect something a lot of people love playing? Because it is different than what you play? I thought this was a BroodWar community. BGH is pat of Broodwar right? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
For topic creator: I believe it's op Slayer)s on West or something like that where a lot of good BGH gamers hang out. I also have a friend who knows of a private BGH server or two. | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:44 tfeign wrote: There are probably just as many money mappers as non money mappers out there. Log into battle.net and click on Join and you'll always find more BGH/Fastest Map games made than non money maps. Sure, nonmoney players may be playing on ladders such as PGT, or play games privately with friends. However the majority of money games are 3v3, meaning that one 3v3 0 Clutter game for example, consists of 3 times the amount of players in it than a 1v1LT, even though they both count as 1 game. The pool of players in money and nonmoney is close. Mastering a money map really only requires knowledge of the game and speed. Micro on money is mostly attack move. Macro isn't just learning how to create a big army as fast as possible; it's learning how to use up your resources most effectively, build orders, timing of expansions, knowing what units to build (ratio of a certain unit to another) Strategy on money is almost nonexistent. You can always tell what your opponent is going for because scouting can be done so easily on money. You cannot expect to surprise an A-level money map player with an unorthodox build. There's tons of room for mistakes. Losing a big battle due to carelessness in midgame on a money map will not hurt you nowhere near the magnitude it does on a non money map. Really, mastering money maps is not hard. All top level money players essentially use the same builds over and over. There's no creativity. No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. Importance of scouting is minimal. Micro is almost nonexistent compared to nonmoney. Macro is simplified to making a ton of buildings and units, as opposed to critical expansion timing, effective build orders, effective unit allocation. Once midgame starts rolling, there's so much money to be used that one can make expansions any time they feel like it and secure it with cannons. On nonmoney, one has to sometimes decide whether or not making cannons to protect a certain expansion will be a worthwhile investment. The game becomes oversimplified to whoever clicks faster over an extended period of time. You really cannot attack your opponent anywhere other than straight in the front once midgame starts rolling. Lose a base? Just build another. There's no concepts of harassment on money maps. Try to kill a high level protoss or terran player on a money map with mass drops as zerg-you'll fail 100% of the time. Try to muta-rush a protoss to death on a money map-It won't happen. There's so much money to be used that players can always play perfectly safe from all types of cheese. You've mostly expanded what I've already said with this post. Money is played very differently from non-money, it's played in such a way that shuns creativity and micro and rewards brainless speed in macro. But that doesn't change the fact that there's practically infinite room for improvement for even the best players on their respective maps, which gives them equal lengths of learning curve. That's just what we have with Starcraft period, there is always an endless amount of things we could've done better in hindsight, and nobody comes close to playing perfectly. As for your claim that there are as many money-map games being played as non-money... I couldn't disagree with you more. Money-maps are played publically, and that's basically all. Do you really think a few dozen public money-map team games can compare with the amount of private non-money melee games being formed in Clan x17, PGT, WGT, Dozens of smaller clan channels, and dozens of Korean channels that are perpetually stacked 40 people high, along with all the games formed publically on all the same servers as money-mappers? I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think we've got money-mappers completely crushed in that area. They have no real community to speak of. They're just random people that log on from time to time do dick around in a public team game of FPME. They don't talk to eachother, they don't congregate, they don't discuss strategy, they don't practice. Their public games are not the tip of the iceberg, that really is all they have. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Tossim1
714 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:08 GTR-2-Go wrote: Yes, but in probably 75% of the brood war community, they all hate all them cheesy rigged no skilled maps. I kind of agree with Entropy on this topic, because BGH and Fastest and all them stuff require no skill, thus hurting the game with no named losers thinking they are good and stuff. What I'm trying to say is, I hate the FPM/BGH communities because they are attracting people to the darkside instead of the good 'non-money map' side. how does it take no skill? how is it cheesy? =[ | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
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