EPTP.S.
Are there any good terran strategy and build orders for bgh 3v3?
[R] High level BGH replays
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gokai
United States812 Posts
P.S. Are there any good terran strategy and build orders for bgh 3v3? | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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omgbnetsux
United States3749 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Try http://www.starcraftdream.com/ http://www.bgh4ever.com/ Mind you BGH/fastest community not organized - and I hope they never do organize themselves. | ||
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miNi
Korea (South)2010 Posts
7 depot 8 barrack another barrack when u have the money, then u just go from there. um.. u have to make a bunker if u suspect rushes, eg if there are zergs just mass mnm, with some tanks. eventually, u have to take control of middle, make turrets everywhere and mass tanks, and mnm | ||
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Zymurgy
United States370 Posts
On December 26 2005 22:38 Physician wrote: Mind you BGH/fastest community not organized - and I hope they never do organize themselves. You should refer to your sig before you post...remember bw is a game and if people have fun playing bgh why would you hope they don't get an organized community if that is what makes the game fun for them? | ||
GTR
51446 Posts
On December 26 2005 23:50 Zymurgy wrote: You should refer to your sig before you post...remember bw is a game and if people have fun playing bgh why would you hope they don't get an organized community if that is what makes the game fun for them? bgh is kinda disrepected in our teamlqiuid community, so what the hell are you talking about | ||
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Zymurgy
United States370 Posts
On December 26 2005 23:59 GTR-2-Go wrote: bgh is kinda disrepected in our teamlqiuid community, so what the hell are you talking about where did i mention tl.net? I was mentioning how he said he hopes they never get an organized community and why he would wish that since it has little affect on us anyways...i didn't say tl.net was the best place to post this kind of thing since obviously it is not. | ||
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GTR
51446 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:03 Zymurgy wrote: where did i mention tl.net? I was mentioning how he said he hopes they never get an organized community and why he would wish that since it has little affect on us anyways...i didn't say tl.net was the best place to post this kind of thing since obviously it is not. Yes, but in probably 75% of the brood war community, they all hate all them cheesy rigged no skilled maps. I kind of agree with Entropy on this topic, because BGH and Fastest and all them stuff require no skill, thus hurting the game with no named losers thinking they are good and stuff. What I'm trying to say is, I hate the FPM/BGH communities because they are attracting people to the darkside instead of the good 'non-money map' side. | ||
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Point88
50 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
(Entropy is right though, that would be bad for the long term... the mere fact that BGH is pretty much recreational only [which contradicts the original poster's request] is evident in the fact that there IS NO real organized BGH community... and just by nature of the game type, there never will be ^_^ so there is really nothing to argue about.... but I know you guys will argue anyways). | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
I think it's obvious which one makes better television. | ||
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Person514cs
1004 Posts
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Chris307
3095 Posts
I think this is because on money maps, it's a lot easier to feel competitive and skilled. That feeling of being good at something and being competitive is a lot more accessible on money maps, and especially in team games. Anybody can create a ton of units on a money map, and obviously anybody can win team games on money maps by having their weight be pulled by better players. This concept also explains the massive popularity of Counterstrike. There are FPS games where projectiles will only go where you tell them to and nothing is random, but people don't want that. They want the 5-foot radius spray of bullets you get in Counterstrike. It allows more people to feel like winners, because anybody can get some kills, and anybody can be on a winning team. | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:31 Person514cs wrote: I think BGH is very different from fastest. Fastest is all about build and move attack. Bgh require decent amount of timing and team work. We all know that BGH is not for 1v1. But bgh 3v3 is a good place to improve your timing and apm. It's a good place to learn the game if not the only place now days. Only other way is to watch replay and copy their build in single player mode, that's way too boring for anyone. I think it's best not to speak of what you don't know. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:44 Chris307 wrote: Money maps hold more appeal for the casual player, though. I think this is because on money maps, it's a lot easier to feel competitive and skilled. That feeling of being good at something and being competitive is a lot more accessible on money maps, and especially in team games. Anybody can create a ton of units on a money map, and obviously anybody can win team games on money maps by having their weight be pulled by better players. This concept also explains the massive popularity of Counterstrike. There are FPS games where projectiles will only go where you tell them to and nothing is random, but people don't want that. They want the 5-foot radius spray of bullets you get in Counterstrike. It allows more people to feel like winners, because anybody can get some kills, and anybody can be on a winning team. Summarize: Newbie friendly. | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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azndng
United States344 Posts
miNi: not to diss your BO.. but that shit would get raped in bgh. 7 depot is earlier than on non money maps. BGH BO's are 100% same as non-money map BO's for first 2-4 minutes. fpm is on their own. the idea of not making 50 miners is appealing to them. its almost like WC... you don't need that many miners. so you worry about game play rather then mining and shit. that's why most people dont' like bgh/non money. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:30 Chris307 wrote: Money maps require as much skill as non-money. That's such a bullshit statement. I've honestly played money map more than I played non money in my Starcraft career. To go from a D level player to a B level player on non money is about 10 times harder (and 10 is not an exaggerated number) than it is to go from a D level fastest/money player to a B level fastest/money player. On my 3rd year of playing money, I can honestly claim that I could beat 99.9% of any money player. There's less than a handful amount of players I know of that had outplayed me on BGH. In my 3rd year of playing non money, I am still far behind a B level player. If demand is high enough, I may write up a guide to playing BGH someday. But seriously, the learning curve and time required until mastery is just not even comparable between a money and nonmoney map. Everything from strategy, micro, macro, decision-making, speed, creativity, and execution on a money map completely pales in comparision to a non money map. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
That was until it died a couple years ago. The BGH community will really never come close to it again. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:44 tfeign wrote: That's such a bullshit statement. I've honestly played money map more than I played non money in my Starcraft career. To go from a D level player to a B level player on non money is about 10 times harder (and 10 is not an exaggerated number) than it is to go from a D level fastest/money player to a B level fastest/money player. On my 3rd year of playing money, I can honestly claim that I could beat 99.9% of any money player. There's less than a handful amount of players I know of that had outplayed me on BGH. In my 3rd year of playing non money, I am still far behind a B level player. If demand is high enough, I may write up a guide to playing BGH someday. But seriously, the learning curve and time required until mastery is just not even comparable between a money and nonmoney map. Anything from strategy, micro, macro, decision-making, speed, creativity, and execution on a money map completely pales in comparision to a non money map. Agreed, but your example is kind of bad. Just because u can beat 99% of money map players after playing a bit doesn't mean that u can *master* it that fast. There is probably tons to be learned strategy wise on money maps but the people who play them frequently to get good are alot less and the people who play it competetivly are pretty dam few in number;O That's the biggest reason why its so easy to get in the top 5% so fast. No one has really taken the time to master it or to get better if they are already on top. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:58 OverTheUnder wrote: Agreed, but your example is kind of bad. Just because u can beat 99% of money map players after playing a bit doesn't mean that u can *master* it that fast. There is probably tons to be learned strategy wise on money maps but the people who play them frequently to get good are alot less and the people who play it competetivly are pretty dam few in number;O That's the biggest reason why its so easy to get in the top 5% so fast. No one has really taken the time to master it or to get better if they are already on top. No, there are not tons of to be learned strategies on money maps. In competitive play, there is only a few small amount of builds that are actually viable when playing against a player of very high level. Sure, there's a ton of builds that one can use to humiliate newbies, but almost all of them will not work against anyone highly skilled. Playing it safe is really the only way to win on a money map on competitive play due to the fact that scouting is so simple to do on a money map. There's really no room for surprises when your oppononent can always scout and see what you are going for. The same is not true in nonmoney. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:03 HeadBangaa wrote: I doubt it. At higher levels, protoss is the only race viable for money maps. The high unit cost is no longer in play, and it sets the race balance far out of whack. Maybe if unit build times/HP/cost were slightly adjusted, these maps would allow for more variety. If you play money maps, Protoss IS the only viable race at high level. Terran can give protoss a run for its money sometimes if T can play perfectly, but a perfect P is >>>>>> than a perfect T P > T > Z | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:03 HeadBangaa wrote: I doubt it. At higher levels, protoss is the only race viable for money maps. The high unit cost is no longer in play, and it sets the race balance far out of whack. Maybe if unit build times/HP/cost were slightly adjusted, these maps would allow for more variety. agreed, but thats alot more for fpm then bgh. Early on the differences wont be as bad and that should be enough time to secure 2 bases so that they have all the min, gas they need. I could see zerg having many problems at a competitive lvl but i think terran could get by. edit: tfeign basically summed it upT_T | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 27 2005 01:44 tfeign wrote: That's such a bullshit statement. I've honestly played money map more than I played non money in my Starcraft career. To go from a D level player to a B level player on non money is about 10 times harder (and 10 is not an exaggerated number) than it is to go from a D level fastest/money player to a B level fastest/money player. On my 3rd year of playing money, I can honestly claim that I could beat 99.9% of any money player. There's less than a handful amount of players I know of that had outplayed me on BGH. In my 3rd year of playing non money, I am still far behind a B level player. If demand is high enough, I may write up a guide to playing BGH someday. But seriously, the learning curve and time required until mastery is just not even comparable between a money and nonmoney map. Anything from strategy, micro, macro, decision-making, speed, creativity, and execution on a money map completely pales in comparision to a non money map. Most of that can be attributed to the fact that there's far less competition in money maps. Of course you're going to progress up the ranks faster, because everybody there is really, really bad. But if you think you've "mastered" money maps, I can assure you that you haven't, and if you think that it's any easier to become a "master' of money maps, I can assure you that you're wrong. There are more resources, and the terrain is simplified, but it's still the same game that we're talking about. I would hardly consider myself an advocate of money maps, in fact I absolutely hate them. But I'm also smart enough to realize that it's essentially the same game being played when you get down to bare bones, and if it seems any easier to me, I know it's only because I've surrounded myself with really shitty players. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
Sure, nonmoney players may be playing on ladders such as PGT, or play games privately with friends. However the majority of money games are 3v3, meaning that one 3v3 0 Clutter game for example, consists of 3 times the amount of players in it than a 1v1LT, even though they both count as 1 game. The pool of players in money and nonmoney is close. Mastering a money map really only requires knowledge of the game and speed. Micro on money is mostly attack move. Macro isn't just learning how to create a big army as fast as possible; it's learning how to use up your resources most effectively, build orders, timing of expansions, knowing what units to build (ratio of a certain unit to another) Strategy on money is almost nonexistent. You can always tell what your opponent is going for because scouting can be done so easily on money. You cannot expect to surprise an A-level money map player with an unorthodox build. There's tons of room for mistakes. Losing a big battle due to carelessness in midgame on a money map will not hurt you nowhere near the magnitude it does on a non money map. Really, mastering money maps is not hard. All top level money players essentially use the same builds over and over. There's no creativity. No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. Importance of scouting is minimal. Micro is almost nonexistent compared to nonmoney. Macro is simplified to making a ton of buildings and units, as opposed to critical expansion timing, effective build orders, effective unit allocation. Once midgame starts rolling, there's so much money to be used that one can make expansions any time they feel like it and secure it with cannons. On nonmoney, one has to sometimes decide whether or not making cannons to protect a certain expansion will be a worthwhile investment. The game becomes oversimplified to whoever clicks faster over an extended period of time. You really cannot attack your opponent anywhere other than straight in the front once midgame starts rolling. Lose a base? Just build another. There's no concepts of harassment on money maps. Try to kill a high level protoss or terran player on a money map with mass drops as zerg-you'll fail 100% of the time. Try to muta-rush a protoss to death on a money map-It won't happen. There's so much money to be used that players can always play perfectly safe from all types of cheese. | ||
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WhizKid77
China682 Posts
so for bgh i'd say the goal should be to reach 200/200 asap by balancing risk with potential growth. this means: zerg - do something like 9 or 12 pool with harass while getting 3-4 hatches if u can, or sunken if u scout any rushes. then go whatever u want - mass hydra or ultra, etc toss - try forge + dual or triple nexus into 20-30 gates or carrier (be careful about terran), or hardcore 4-5 gate zeal terran - 6-8rax mass mnm or fast vult facts into tank. things like cliff drops on bgh really won't work at higher levels. like always, in team games build orders aren't as important as keeping the same flow with your teammates - coordinate your attacks so u can pump men when u need it, or econ when u dont (esp zerg). about matchups: if you are terran and zerg heavy (tzz, ttz), u prob want to turtle and build up a bit. if you have protoss and zerg support, u can try rushing/gaining map control. if all 6 players are skilled, it really comes down to controlling the middle. if everyone is near 200/200, the terran player becomes really key, unless the zergs can use swarm well. protoss becomes the mainstream of the army, with psi storming as key. but a lot of this doesn't matter as it might become just a battle of bandwidth and flow/tug of war (who has more gates, facts, etc to throw men at each other faster) | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
but thats a given i guessT_T | ||
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d4d
Switzerland1066 Posts
On December 26 2005 22:18 EvilTeletubby wrote: You're in the wrong place buddy. That was true, but now I hope he stuck around to read the above. The BGH/fastest/0clutter community of starcraft player may not be elite, but they ARE the casual players by excellence. I don't have the actual numbers, but one could guess they probablly total 50% of the amount of starcraft games played every day. These games are the equivalent of the 1 on 1 in the backyard or the football game after the sunday dinner to many people. Those people watch the starcraft games on TV if there is any. So they are the audience of the "gosu" community, and audience deserve respect. | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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SoDrunk
United Kingdom291 Posts
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akaDave
111 Posts
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XtaC_hiryu
Philippines125 Posts
On December 26 2005 23:59 GTR-2-Go wrote: bgh is kinda disrepected in our teamlqiuid community, so what the hell are you talking about Really? Why would you disrespect something a lot of people love playing? Because it is different than what you play? I thought this was a BroodWar community. BGH is pat of Broodwar right? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
For topic creator: I believe it's op Slayer)s on West or something like that where a lot of good BGH gamers hang out. I also have a friend who knows of a private BGH server or two. | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:44 tfeign wrote: There are probably just as many money mappers as non money mappers out there. Log into battle.net and click on Join and you'll always find more BGH/Fastest Map games made than non money maps. Sure, nonmoney players may be playing on ladders such as PGT, or play games privately with friends. However the majority of money games are 3v3, meaning that one 3v3 0 Clutter game for example, consists of 3 times the amount of players in it than a 1v1LT, even though they both count as 1 game. The pool of players in money and nonmoney is close. Mastering a money map really only requires knowledge of the game and speed. Micro on money is mostly attack move. Macro isn't just learning how to create a big army as fast as possible; it's learning how to use up your resources most effectively, build orders, timing of expansions, knowing what units to build (ratio of a certain unit to another) Strategy on money is almost nonexistent. You can always tell what your opponent is going for because scouting can be done so easily on money. You cannot expect to surprise an A-level money map player with an unorthodox build. There's tons of room for mistakes. Losing a big battle due to carelessness in midgame on a money map will not hurt you nowhere near the magnitude it does on a non money map. Really, mastering money maps is not hard. All top level money players essentially use the same builds over and over. There's no creativity. No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. Importance of scouting is minimal. Micro is almost nonexistent compared to nonmoney. Macro is simplified to making a ton of buildings and units, as opposed to critical expansion timing, effective build orders, effective unit allocation. Once midgame starts rolling, there's so much money to be used that one can make expansions any time they feel like it and secure it with cannons. On nonmoney, one has to sometimes decide whether or not making cannons to protect a certain expansion will be a worthwhile investment. The game becomes oversimplified to whoever clicks faster over an extended period of time. You really cannot attack your opponent anywhere other than straight in the front once midgame starts rolling. Lose a base? Just build another. There's no concepts of harassment on money maps. Try to kill a high level protoss or terran player on a money map with mass drops as zerg-you'll fail 100% of the time. Try to muta-rush a protoss to death on a money map-It won't happen. There's so much money to be used that players can always play perfectly safe from all types of cheese. You've mostly expanded what I've already said with this post. Money is played very differently from non-money, it's played in such a way that shuns creativity and micro and rewards brainless speed in macro. But that doesn't change the fact that there's practically infinite room for improvement for even the best players on their respective maps, which gives them equal lengths of learning curve. That's just what we have with Starcraft period, there is always an endless amount of things we could've done better in hindsight, and nobody comes close to playing perfectly. As for your claim that there are as many money-map games being played as non-money... I couldn't disagree with you more. Money-maps are played publically, and that's basically all. Do you really think a few dozen public money-map team games can compare with the amount of private non-money melee games being formed in Clan x17, PGT, WGT, Dozens of smaller clan channels, and dozens of Korean channels that are perpetually stacked 40 people high, along with all the games formed publically on all the same servers as money-mappers? I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think we've got money-mappers completely crushed in that area. They have no real community to speak of. They're just random people that log on from time to time do dick around in a public team game of FPME. They don't talk to eachother, they don't congregate, they don't discuss strategy, they don't practice. Their public games are not the tip of the iceberg, that really is all they have. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Tossim1
714 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:08 GTR-2-Go wrote: Yes, but in probably 75% of the brood war community, they all hate all them cheesy rigged no skilled maps. I kind of agree with Entropy on this topic, because BGH and Fastest and all them stuff require no skill, thus hurting the game with no named losers thinking they are good and stuff. What I'm trying to say is, I hate the FPM/BGH communities because they are attracting people to the darkside instead of the good 'non-money map' side. how does it take no skill? how is it cheesy? =[ | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
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azndng
United States344 Posts
No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. 4 out of 5 things you said can be found in BGH games. they just dont 'have ramps. 1. critical decision making = rush or no rush vs 3 hatch pool/wall terran/1pylon nexus toss... 2. no cliffs? you ever vs a terran player in 3v3? you can cliff 6 spots on BGH + a few more expos. 3. terrain abuse -- refer to #2. 4. BO's can start off just like non money map players. (given they have decent micro)... i can't tell you how many times you can win with 1 gate robo/reaver in 3v3's. | ||
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paaltje
Netherlands359 Posts
On December 27 2005 11:33 Chris307 wrote: You've mostly expanded what I've already said with this post. Money is played very differently from non-money, it's played in such a way that shuns creativity and micro and rewards brainless speed in macro. But that doesn't change the fact that there's practically infinite room for improvement for even the best players on their respective maps, which gives them equal lengths of learning curve. That's just what we have with Starcraft period, there is always an endless amount of things we could've done better in hindsight, and nobody comes close to playing perfectly. As for your claim that there are as many money-map games being played as non-money... I couldn't disagree with you more. Money-maps are played publically, and that's basically all. Do you really think a few dozen public money-map team games can compare with the amount of private non-money melee games being formed in Clan x17, PGT, WGT, Dozens of smaller clan channels, and dozens of Korean channels that are perpetually stacked 40 people high, along with all the games formed publically on all the same servers as money-mappers? I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think we've got money-mappers completely crushed in that area. They have no real community to speak of. They're just random people that log on from time to time do dick around in a public team game of FPME. They don't talk to eachother, they don't congregate, they don't discuss strategy, they don't practice. Their public games are not the tip of the iceberg, that really is all they have. VGT is back up PGL i holding a money map tournament with 144 euro prize money. Knowing around 40 ACTIVE possi clans, 10 active meet channels 50 % of they possi gamers don't play public, cozz its to easy oke it '' Nothing compare too pgt or wgt " but its something, I think Sc is 50% low games, 25% ums, and 25 % money gamers | ||
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Mickey
United States2606 Posts
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SoDrunk
United Kingdom291 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
You gonna tell me there is no skill between two B or so level players tryin that shit? That's such BS. Expos are just as vital cuz that extra gas SAVES you. No scouting? Get the fuck out, a guy who has managed to hold 1-2 more vespene than you will kick your ass cuz he's gettin gas that much faster. The problem is.... these matches last for HOURS. And I mean Hours. That macro gets EXHAUSTING the micro stops as much... Plus you know how vital center is in BGH? You try fightin on those chokes. and then try fighting after holding center. BGH as a map is pretty strategic and fun... although location based. It's just hunters with money. No its not just macro and attack move. You gotta fight on wide fronts which are hard to find cuz you're armies are so big. BGH takes skill, just because you can't beat an opponant through attrition doesn't make it horrible. Just makes certain parts boring... and less emphasizing resources... Hell... I'm not a fan but saying its total noob isn't true either. That's bigotry. Money can be art... rarely. | ||
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azndng
United States344 Posts
and i propose to have a challenge for anyone who thinks otherwise. get a 3v3 bgh game going. exclusively for non money map players on one team, and the top 3 bgh players. | ||
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DuDe[DarK]
United States103 Posts
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SoDrunk
United Kingdom291 Posts
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Wangsta
United States776 Posts
I remember a while ago in x17 I watch some toss (i think testie) go against some idiot who said he could beat him on bgh cuz thats where he practices. And in the end he got completely destroyed. BGH is not "easier." If you played against a static opponent who always got X units in Y amount of time, BGH would be easier. But since YOU can build faster, your opponent can too. In fact, I would say bgh/fastestmapever is harder than normal maps when played at a higher level, because small mistakes can easily lose you the game. The reason why you don't see bgh/fastest at high levels is because its boring. there was this VOD where boxer, nada, yellow?, and some toss played a 2v2 on fastest map ever. Nada went zerg and basically won 2v1 with 20-30 hatch cracklings | ||
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:44 Chris307 wrote: Money maps hold more appeal for the casual player, though. I think this is because on money maps, it's a lot easier to feel competitive and skilled. That feeling of being good at something and being competitive is a lot more accessible on money maps, and especially in team games. Anybody can create a ton of units on a money map, and obviously anybody can win team games on money maps by having their weight be pulled by better players. This concept also explains the massive popularity of Counterstrike. There are FPS games where projectiles will only go where you tell them to and nothing is random, but people don't want that. They want the 5-foot radius spray of bullets you get in Counterstrike. It allows more people to feel like winners, because anybody can get some kills, and anybody can be on a winning team. very interesting chris. I guess I know now why I love money maps so much. =D | ||
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Reach and Nada and Oov too. GoRush for the Zergy but we all know Zerg = dead on bgh. | ||
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MhX
United States317 Posts
This is completely ridiculous to say. As someone stated earlier, the only reason it seems easier is because lower level players tend to play it more, because in high money maps you can make the big flashy units easier than normal-money maps. There was an arguement someone stated that the reason money maps take no skill is because the maps have less features like no clifffs, not many doodads,no ramps, and other such things. Well NO SHIT. If you took a map like LT and took all those things out of it , you would have the exact same thing. Since most of the money maps are played by lower level players, there are generally more simple and lower level features. If money was more popular to higher skilled players , there would be of course money maps with ramps and cliffs etc. I guarentee if you took a group of progamers, and gave them a money map that had features like common non-money maps do like cliffs, ramps, chokes, and islands, they would bring the game to an entirely different depth(i.e. a lot more creativity than are normally given credit to such maps). | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:08 GTR-2-Go wrote: Yes, but in probably 75% of the brood war community, they all hate all them cheesy rigged no skilled maps. I kind of agree with Entropy on this topic, because BGH and Fastest and all them stuff require no skill, thus hurting the game with no named losers thinking they are good and stuff. What I'm trying to say is, I hate the FPM/BGH communities because they are attracting people to the darkside instead of the good 'non-money map' side. Not that I play them, but I have watched PGT C- players playing them and they do actually take skill. It is just a super macro/unit counter/cheese type of skill. It's like Blitz chess for Starcraft, much faster paced games(more mistakes). Of course puritans will choose to play better SC, but for the crackheads, this serves their purpose, and it does take skill. | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:44 Chris307 wrote: Money maps hold more appeal for the casual player, though. I think this is because on money maps, it's a lot easier to feel competitive and skilled. That feeling of being good at something and being competitive is a lot more accessible on money maps, and especially in team games. Anybody can create a ton of units on a money map, and obviously anybody can win team games on money maps by having their weight be pulled by better players. This concept also explains the massive popularity of Counterstrike. There are FPS games where projectiles will only go where you tell them to and nothing is random, but people don't want that. They want the 5-foot radius spray of bullets you get in Counterstrike. It allows more people to feel like winners, because anybody can get some kills, and anybody can be on a winning team. I would agree with you. Well put. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 29 2005 16:09 azndng wrote: tfeign : are you going away from the subject? your ideas seemed to be towards 1v1 game play... which is a joke for a majority of the BGH community. (they would challenge on hunters for 1v1). No critical decision making. No ramps, no cliffs, no terrains to be abused. No BO's to be explored. 4 out of 5 things you said can be found in BGH games. they just dont 'have ramps. 1. critical decision making = rush or no rush vs 3 hatch pool/wall terran/1pylon nexus toss... 2. no cliffs? you ever vs a terran player in 3v3? you can cliff 6 spots on BGH + a few more expos. 3. terrain abuse -- refer to #2. 4. BO's can start off just like non money map players. (given they have decent micro)... i can't tell you how many times you can win with 1 gate robo/reaver in 3v3's. My ideas are for 1v1s as well as team games 1. Read: CRITICAL decision making. I wouldn't call any of that critical decision making. 2. BGH cliffs require NO SKILLS. I wouldn't even call them cliffs. How to defend against a cliff in BGH = make a few cannons near the cliff and you're 100% safe. Can battles happen on cliffs on BGH? No. Nonmoney map cliffs such as examplified in LT requires a player to decide how many shuttles to make in order to protect one's cliff. They require players to decide on spell researches such as speed shuttle, whether they may be necessary. They require players to decide which expansions are worth taking, which are worth defending. 3. refer to #2 4. Ugh yeah...i can't tell you either how many times I've won 3v3's by going straight nuke, by massing queens, by pure zerglings, by cannon rushing. Shit, I can't tell you either how many times I've won by doing absolutely nothing all game long. The fact is, 1 gate robo/reaver in 3v3's is NOT a viable strategy against any highly skilled players. BGH is a map where there are very few options available. You can shit on public newbies all you wish with retarded strategies, I know I did too, but face a B or above class BGH player and you'll miserably fail if you deviate from the norm. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 29 2005 17:06 SuperJongMan wrote: Ok... is anyone here respectably decent and tried playing 1:1 BGH? You gonna tell me there is no skill between two B or so level players tryin that shit? That's such BS. Expos are just as vital cuz that extra gas SAVES you. No scouting? Get the fuck out, a guy who has managed to hold 1-2 more vespene than you will kick your ass cuz he's gettin gas that much faster. The problem is.... these matches last for HOURS. And I mean Hours. That macro gets EXHAUSTING the micro stops as much... Plus you know how vital center is in BGH? You try fightin on those chokes. and then try fighting after holding center. BGH as a map is pretty strategic and fun... although location based. It's just hunters with money. No its not just macro and attack move. You gotta fight on wide fronts which are hard to find cuz you're armies are so big. BGH takes skill, just because you can't beat an opponant through attrition doesn't make it horrible. Just makes certain parts boring... and less emphasizing resources... Hell... I'm not a fan but saying its total noob isn't true either. That's bigotry. Money can be art... rarely. I'm respectably decent and I have always played 1v1BGH before starting nonmoney 2 years ago, and I'm gonna tell you the skill gap is very small compared to nonmoney. Expos are nowhere near as vital as in nonmoney maps Scouting on BGH is ridiculously easy. You have so much resources that you can always throw units to scout anywhere, anytime. And matches don't last for hours. Between two newbies who turtle themselves up, maybe. In no way that a 1v1BGH matchup usually last for hours. BGH takes very little skills, not because I can't beat an opponent, but because I've beaten too many to count, although I'm nowhere a B class nonmoney player | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
It takes hours. Unless toss gives up middle too soon. And with all that money in BGH, EVERYONE ends up turtling. If you have 15 gates pumping full and still have 3G's.. what do you do? Lay down 10 more gates and fuckin turtle with the rest... BGH is all about speed and fast hands... I feel much weaker on BGH than I do on non-money vs ppl of same skill level as me cuz I am relatively slow hands. I mean, PvT is just like.... stalemate until someone decides they don't wanna play at peak APM and potential cuz... Arbiter is answered by sci vessel is answered by DA is answered by Mechanic Push is.... giant cycle until someone fails.. although toss can usually take map... Terran will manage to create a monster tight defence. EDIT - And how the fwux you gonna tell me expos don't matter. 6 Vespene Anything vs 2 Vespene Anything... Come on man, Toss can stream out archons like nothing. T never runs outta gas and BCS and Sci Vessels stream Z can toss every hive unit and still laugh and make 50 guards with bout 8 vespene... Gas is vital - - so is the speed you gather it at | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 29 2005 19:23 CTStalker wrote: the funny thing is, pretty much everyone who have bashed bgh in this thread would get ripped apart by a motel bgh team. you think playing low money maps makes you a smarter or more strategically minded person? get over yourself, and let people enjoy themselves as they will in this game I bash BGH in this thread and I was one of the most avid 1v1BGHers there was. Playing low money maps do make you a much more strategically minded person, that's nothing but fact. BGH requires very little strategies. There are so few strategies that one can use viably on BGH compared to nonmoney maps that one can expect standard play almost all the time if you want to win a game vs any high level players. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 29 2005 22:54 SuperJongMan wrote: Dude, you try PvT on BGH. It takes hours. Unless toss gives up middle too soon. And with all that money in BGH, EVERYONE ends up turtling. If you have 15 gates pumping full and still have 3G's.. what do you do? Lay down 10 more gates and fuckin turtle with the rest... BGH is all about speed and fast hands... I feel much weaker on BGH than I do on non-money vs ppl of same skill level as me cuz I am relatively slow hands. I mean, PvT is just like.... stalemate until someone decides they don't wanna play at peak APM and potential cuz... Arbiter is answered by sci vessel is answered by DA is answered by Mechanic Push is.... giant cycle until someone fails.. although toss can usually take map... Terran will manage to create a monster tight defence. EDIT - And how the fwux you gonna tell me expos don't matter. 6 Vespene Anything vs 2 Vespene Anything... Come on man, Toss can stream out archons like nothing. T never runs outta gas and BCS and Sci Vessels stream Z can toss every hive unit and still laugh and make 50 guards with bout 8 vespene... Gas is vital - - so is the speed you gather it at 1v1 BGH? Me P you T | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Since there is 2 vespene, there are some risky tech rushes you can try early on. Dual Fast Upgrade Toss Easy lurker muta BGH is like Hunters without attrition and too much gas... It's still strategic awhile tiresome and 99% of the population can't play it right. Saying it takes no skill or no strategy is a lie. End. Verdict. Signed sealed and delivered. EDIT - I don't/can't play T. lol | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
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Syst[eM]
335 Posts
Really? Why would you disrespect something a lot of people love playing? Because it is different than what you play? I thought this was a BroodWar community. BGH is pat of Broodwar right? Different from ftw | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 29 2005 18:46 Wangsta wrote: bgh isn't a newb map, it's just played by newbs. I remember a while ago in x17 I watch some toss (i think testie) go against some idiot who said he could beat him on bgh cuz thats where he practices. And in the end he got completely destroyed. BGH is not "easier." If you played against a static opponent who always got X units in Y amount of time, BGH would be easier. But since YOU can build faster, your opponent can too. In fact, I would say bgh/fastestmapever is harder than normal maps when played at a higher level, because small mistakes can easily lose you the game. The reason why you don't see bgh/fastest at high levels is because its boring. there was this VOD where boxer, nada, yellow?, and some toss played a 2v2 on fastest map ever. Nada went zerg and basically won 2v1 with 20-30 hatch cracklings If you're using Testie as an example to support your point, then that's just a completely dumb example. What if Testie got completely destroyed? Replace "he" with Testie in the last sentence of your first paragraph, and everything would make 100% sense. It's funny how money map players always try to make a point that money map takes just as much skills as nonmoney by challenging highly skilled nonmoney players on a money map game, with the claim that "if you think money takes no skill, then try and beat me on money." Well in this case, Testie, the non money player, did completely destroyed the money mapper who practices heavily on BGH. Why you would use an example that actually go AGAINST what you're trying to say is truly beyond me. | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
1. It's racially imbalanced. Everything protoss is fucking overpowered and everything zerg is weak. 2. It's positionally imbalanced. Maps such as BGH heavily depends on starting position 3. The skill level gap is tiny compared to nonmoney 4. It's boring as hell to watch. There's no creative strategies that are actually viable in a game between highly skilled players. You just can not expect a player who goes non-standard on bgh/fastest and win against a player who knows what he's doing. Nada went zerg and basically won 2v1 on fastest map with 20-30 hatch cracklings where the fuck did you get this from? I honestly think I can beat July 1v1 on fastest map. Zerg on fastest map just sucks, period. If you let zerg mass up 30+ hatches, something is wrong with you | ||
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
Anyway, I still enjoy playing 3v3 bgh for fun. It can get challenging when you find 3 bgh players who know each other to play against. So I'm all for the BGH community getting organized. | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
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CloudTime
80 Posts
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tAi.BcHyDrO
Canada7 Posts
On December 26 2005 22:38 Physician wrote: Wrong forum man. Try http://www.starcraftdream.com/ http://www.bgh4ever.com/ Mind you BGH/fastest community not organized - and I hope they never do organize themselves. Cause they are mostly kids playing money... not nearly smart enough :p | ||
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Eniram
Sudan3166 Posts
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EAGER-beaver
Canada2799 Posts
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tAi.BcHyDrO
Canada7 Posts
On December 26 2005 23:50 Zymurgy wrote: So your for map hacking? who's to say the map hacker isn't having fun... suppose you could say that "but he's cheating" but money maps are a type of hack... you can't open a normal campaign editor and make a fastest, it has to be hacked.You should refer to your sig before you post...remember bw is a game and if people have fun playing bgh why would you hope they don't get an organized community if that is what makes the game fun for them? BGH is ok i guess... atleast they don't have 1344234 stacked patched of 50000000 infront of their base where if you lift your not gonna be able to land back where your cc started. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On December 27 2005 02:05 tfeign wrote: No, there are not tons of to be learned strategies on money maps. In competitive play, there is only a few small amount of builds that are actually viable when playing against a player of very high level. Sure, there's a ton of builds that one can use to humiliate newbies, but almost all of them will not work against anyone highly skilled. Playing it safe is really the only way to win on a money map on competitive play due to the fact that scouting is so simple to do on a money map. There's really no room for surprises when your oppononent can always scout and see what you are going for. The same is not true in nonmoney. THERE IS NO HIGH LEVEL FOR MOONEY MAPS ~_~ | ||
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taDa
575 Posts
On December 26 2005 21:47 gokai wrote: Since my friend and I only play BGH, I was wondering if there are any high level bgh replays. We play only 3v3, so those will be very helpful, but 2v2 are fine too. Since I want to improve my terran, there must be a terran in the replay. P.S. Are there any good terran strategy and build orders for bgh 3v3? please tell me this is a joke. Instant ban. Hard to believe this topic is still dragging on. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On December 30 2005 09:40 Night[Mare] wrote: THERE IS NO HIGH LEVEL FOR MOONEY MAPS ~_~ I stand against the \"skill\" of money maps, but as much as I hate to say so: you are wrong. Why am I against money maps? For the reasons already listed here. The strategic depth of non-money is due to having limited resources at your disposal, which leads to the differences that tfeign has been addressing. But there are some money mappers who do understand the game. They are a rarity. They are like the couple that is desperately in love but won\'t get married for some stupid hippy reason. These money mappers could play pro maps (let\'s face it, there is no \"pro\" money league, so don\'t even try to argue it; the maps I play, however, like Requiem, Forte, Rush Hour, etc. are used by proleagues that sponsor gamers on salaries that go into the six figures), yet these people choose not to. As I said, a rarity, yet they exist. I don\'t have a problem with money mappers. What I have a problem with is when they get obnxious about \"being skilled.\" The challenge is supposed to be if I can beat them 1:1 on Fastest. And fastest is the only map considered. Even when I play my friends, I don\'t consider playing just one map. LT and Luna are just the begining, not the be all and end all. Except for the new maps by Bill and Usan Nation (which is really meant for 2v2 anyway), I have palyed all the maps in the PGT pool with friends. And it is a culmination of experiences on those that lead me to decide who I am better than. Maybe a friend of mine beats me consistently on Luna, but if I rape him on everything else, is he better than me because he\'s better on Luna? No, in fact, that just implies to me that he has the strategy on Luna worked out, but doesn\'t understand the game well enough to play anything but. And money mappers are completely ignorant of that. Whether I do well or not, I CAN play fastest. I CAN play BGH. How many of them CAN play LT or Luna or, much worse for them, Requiem or 815? Can anyone now argue to me why that makes them just as skilled as me? Fine, someone beats me on fastest. *Okay* I can rape almost any pub money map game, and I know that because I have done so in the past (in fact, I used to be in ICL, which is a group that dedicates itself to trashing and backstabbing BGH newbies, particularly comp stompers). I\'d like to see them win 1 out of 4 games pub LT. Then let\'s see them try PGT. How many of them will even win a single game? | ||
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scrapperdog
United States779 Posts
I swear I remember some pro matches on BGH back in the day, but I could be wrong. I might be thinking of smuft/grrrr/nazgul (or elky I forget) in that 3v3 match vs 3 koreans on regular hunters. Anyways, remember the majority of us were BGH people at one time. | ||
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OnlyRandom
Canada32 Posts
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Starparty
Sweden1963 Posts
On December 27 2005 00:30 Chris307 wrote: I think it's obvious which one makes better television. | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
Supporting BGH is 100% proof you are an idiot. There are no exceptions. Posting that you think BGH takes skill shows the world you are an idiot. | ||
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Oxygen
Canada3581 Posts
"da minz r haked!!!11" | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On December 29 2005 18:46 Wangsta wrote: In fact, I would say bgh/fastestmapever is harder than normal maps when played at a higher level, because small mistakes can easily lose you the game. ROFL PLEASE TELL ME THATS A JOKE! You never have seen pro games right? ZvZ you lose 2 drones to lings and you die ( first 5 mins ) or go into a heavy disadvantage ZvT you dont time well, and your sunkens die and you with them, you dont scout an early drop ship on main, you die, you go muta vs 3 rax +1 terran who mass turret, you're in disadvantage etc. ZvP you lose 1 or 2 lings in the early zealot vs lings fight uselessly, and you die. A dt sneaks into your main and you have no ovies, you die, etc Since zerg is my race I can tell about it. In bgh you just have to put hatch in choke and mass sunken. So, NO, even in important battles you might lose it and re-macro and own. Small mistakes here dont cost you the game because they're so easily fixed. Plz stfu thx | ||
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paaltje
Netherlands359 Posts
On December 31 2005 08:20 Ghin wrote: Everyone who supports BGH is an idiot and goes on the idiot list. Supporting BGH is 100% proof you are an idiot. There are no exceptions. Posting that you think BGH takes skill shows the world you are an idiot.  | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
On December 31 2005 09:28 HungZerg wrote: to make such an absolute statement about something you apparently have no clue about qualifies you as the idiot On December 31 2005 11:47 paaltje wrote: If you were smart, you would post what reasons make me incorrect and not that I am an idiot. | ||
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paaltje
Netherlands359 Posts
On December 31 2005 12:12 Ghin wrote: If you were smart, you would post what reasons make me incorrect and not that I am an idiot. Read 5 pages of this topic plz..... | ||
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