##Vote Foolishness for Mayor
TL Mafia XLIV - Page 50
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
##Vote Foolishness for Mayor | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On August 23 2011 10:45 Curu wrote: He must save the cheerleader to save the world. On August 23 2011 11:20 VisceraEyes wrote: My scum-list is long. And hard. On August 23 2011 09:04 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO On August 23 2011 09:31 wherebugsgo wrote: LOL maybe this is why there were feelings of paranoia. I need to reread AGAIN. Thanks Mig. If you can, please answer Jackal. On August 23 2011 11:34 Foolishness wrote: Heading by the policy known as "VisceraEyes's mafia list is always wrong" we can safely say we have 4 confirmed townies now. In less than twenty posts. And I'm not even going after posts that could be consolidated. Cut the spam. Also, in the future if you want to discuss a call the moderator makes, PM me, don't clutter the thread arguing with me about it. | ||
chaos13
Canada885 Posts
On August 22 2011 23:15 Palmar wrote: Let's assume for a second you don't think I am scum, and in turn I'll think for a second you might be town aligned. What would you think about lynching BrownBear. I will give my thoughts on your lynch target of choice after I've done re-reading his posts. Works for me. BrownBear, I don't think is mafia. From what I can see of his posts he is playing pro-town, making solid analysis. I'll be moving my vote from Foolishness since it isn't doing any good there today. Still deciding who to put it on, I've got a couple candidates in mind. Someone I really don't like the looks of right now is wherebugsgo On August 23 2011 00:22 wherebugsgo wrote: I feel like Palmar is town, as is VE. VE I think you should reconsider your vote on palmar. Right now xtfftc and Brownbear stand out to me; I can't really put a definite finger on either but I need to do some more reading and analyzing (on a computer, not an iPhone lol) I would suggest also that you guys all remember Trotske and Vain. Some of the names from day 1 are being forgotten because of this hardcore tunneling going on. VE I think you're tunnelling too hard on Palmar and are missing other valuable leads we have right now. I say this based off what I read by filtering your posts. Last things I wish to add/reiterate: I feel like Foolish is town, and he's usually a valuable source of information. If we get confirmation that he was lying about last night then we need to reconsider our stance about him being town. So far, other than the hit claim, foolish has done nothing to stand out, and so I'm inclined to say that he is town. Palmar is most likely town as well in my opinion. Yeah, he's been tunnelling BB but I think it's rather warranted. BB's vote yesterday was rather scummy, and the post he made about semiactives had the feel of a nontown agenda. He tried throwing some suspicion on "semiactives" and listed 3-4 names, of which were JeeJee, hiro, myself, and Foolish. Well damn, he sure thinks Palmar is town. Why does he post this shortly after then? On August 23 2011 01:19 wherebugsgo wrote: Upon rereading palmar's posts, I lean toward town. Palmar was never a proponent of the Sevryn lynch and he made several good (IMO) posts on how it matters not what a person thinks another's alignment is, but the WAY in which they propose their arguments. In this sense, I agree; the manner in which someone responds or posts is actually more important in order to determine their alignment than what they are literally saying. You seemed way more convinced of his townieness earlier before you'd read his posts, but you provide other reasons for why he is town.. This just doesn't make sense to me. If wherebugsgo is scum, Palmar probably is as well. But when I filter his posts I really don't get a strong read on him either way. Can I get some external input on him please? | ||
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 23 2011 11:45 Curu wrote: Yes. Your post is excellent and needs love, but I still feel more strongly about xtfftc, especially given the timing of the two wagons. Your post did prod me to consider DB in a new light, and I encourage everyone to read the case and do the same, but I'm still leaning harder scum on xtfftc. Hey chaoser, got any RELEVANT things to say? You know, about the people in this game. You still think your vote should lie on Mig? Mig has a blatant contradiction in his posts. I'm sure he's going to requote that in one of his coming posts. xtfftc has no contradictions, and is a very classic example of a "dumb townie" (no offense to him). I do not feel like he is pushing an agenda in any of his posts. Since it's his first mafia game I cannot compare past behavior, but Mig is looking like he was in DrH's game: posting paragraphs trying to blend in. Compare that to XLIII where he was blue, and he was actively calling people out (like JeeJee). Here is one of his defense posts from that game where he was a lynch candidate: On August 03 2011 04:53 Mig wrote: I have a pretty simple defense. People should actually read my posts. Where have I backed down after putting pressure on people? What mafia objectives have I pushed? Look at the questions I asked varp and JeeJee. Was I trying to slander them or cast suspicion on them to look like I was fake contributing? Or was I asking legitimate questions that the town should be asking. The town has almost no activity and I am actively trying to get people to post in IRC. What a scummy thing for me to do! I have pmd half the people in town asking them for their opinions. And I have no problem with giving my opinions on people. No one has to force me to contribute. So just ask yourself if my play is helping the town or helping mafia. If you think I am helping mafia feel free to lynch me. The confident attitude is what struck me most here. He actively challenges the town "What mafia objectives have I pushed?....Or was I asking legitimate questions that the town should be asking". This game that attitude is completely gone. Take a look at part of his defense: On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: My activity this game has been a lot lower than most of my games. I am really burned out on mafia right now. I have played too many games recently and I am going to take a break after this game. I have to force myself just to actually read the thread. It is no excuse for my poor play but it is the truth. So if I am lynched because of it my apologies for sucking. I remember someone mentioning that 'appealing to emotions' is a mafia tactic. But as a whole his posts lack the confident attitude that we all know from town Mig. I agree that his case against DropBear is good (and DropBear should be looked at carefully after today), but that doesn't mean we should just assume he's innocent. If xtfftc released a good analysis against Pyo we wouldn't just abandon his case and jump ship. Anyone has potential to release a good analysis. The point is that Mig's defense of himself is sloppy and incomplete. Outside of yesterday's vote, he hasn't addressed many of the things chaoser and myself have presented. Why was he so unhelpful yesterday? Why is his attitude changed from his normal townie behavior? Also I attacked him yesterday and got shot. Very frequently mafia flip out if they get attacked day 1 and shoot the attackers. I can list 3 separate games off the top of my head where this happened to me, and I'm sure I can find many more easily. Yes, this piece by itself does not mean Mig is mafia. The problem is that when you look at the big puzzle, all these individual pieces fit together to form the big picture. Mig | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 23 2011 11:46 chaoser wrote: Hypocrite! ____________________________________________________________________________ Alright, some things to think about: I've looked over the posts of some players we've somewhat forgotten. Here's one that really stood out to me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=92078 Trotske BEHOLD, his first post: On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote: I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. Da eff? First he acknowledges that Sevryn seemed scummy, and completely glosses over it. Then, he goes for foolishness, who has made ONE post and it's an obvious troll. Why would he begin to plan for the lynch of another player completely based on a troll post? There is no analysis here by Trotske, just a complete guess. Either he's being thick, and not understanding it's a troll, or he's mafia and trying to set up a future lynch. Not to mention, the way he came off about Sevryn would have allowed him to slip away without responsibility because he didn't add any new analysis about Sevryn either. If he knew Sevryn was town he knew about the possibility that the vote could change, since this was very early in the day. EXHIBIT B: On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote: Ok guys I'd like to say I think Foolishness is scum (again) here is my original post + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote: I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. QuickSilver7 pointed out how this was scummy of me to say I Think foolishness is scum and then vote for sevryn but the fact is this is a majority lynch system the fact that sevryn looks scummy and has the most votes on him is enough to vote for him unless more people agreed with me but he is the only one who seemed to read my post. The next page after I made my post calling Foolishness inactive he posts quite a few times while not addressing my post at all. Most of his posts are taking a very on the fence position. accusing quite a few people of being scum but yet he's not so sure sevryn is. This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn. I think foolishness is a great target for the next lynch. Next post by Trotske is kinda more of the same. However, now we can use information we know now to be true to perhaps help us analyze this post. First, he defends himself in the first sentence from the sole accusation of him by Quicksilver. Quicksilver's accusation of Trotske relied on the same reasoning that I just used up there; it's strange to want to lynch someone, then plan someone else's lynch on the condition that the person you're planning to lynch doesn't come up to defend themselves. You vote in order to lynch mafia, you don't vote to bandwagon. Trotske bandwagoned Sevryn and then planned to lynch foolish afterward. Then, the killer: On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote: This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn. Well, we know now that Sevryn is not scum. In light of Trotske's motives, this sentence certainly is not something a townie would say. Not to mention, busing a fellow mafia on day 1 is just weird. Foolishness also later went on to say (before sev was lynched) that he didn't think sevryn was mafia. So, how could Foolish be trying to distance himself from Sevryn? Why would mafia bus their own on day 1? Trotske's "analysis" was wrong on several levels, primarily because, IMO, there was no analysis to begin with. Trotske was just trying to APPEAR to contribute. Next: On August 21 2011 08:54 Trotske wrote: Two hours left in the day I don't think you are going to get a switch from sevryn to chaoser in that time. Lets stick with the lynch we have been going for the past day we don't want a no-lynch because someone forgot to switch their vote back. This and his remaining 2-3 posts or whatever don't contribute anything whatsoever except his feeling that it'd be better to lynch Sevryn than no one, which everyone had already said numerous times. During this day Trotske has done absolutely nothing. Scum? I think so. What do y'all think? | ||
Curu
Canada2817 Posts
The case against Mig is mostly meta, and he's stepping out of his invisible play. chaoser's accusations read like one big OMGUS, voting Mig on meta reasons too after being accused for meta reasons, you don't think there's some lazy vote parking and contradiction there either? If there's a scum in that pairing I would lean heavily towards chaoser. | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 23 2011 11:55 chaos13 wrote: Works for me. BrownBear, I don't think is mafia. From what I can see of his posts he is playing pro-town, making solid analysis. I'll be moving my vote from Foolishness since it isn't doing any good there today. Still deciding who to put it on, I've got a couple candidates in mind. Someone I really don't like the looks of right now is wherebugsgo Well damn, he sure thinks Palmar is town. Why does he post this shortly after then? You seemed way more convinced of his townieness earlier before you'd read his posts, but you provide other reasons for why he is town.. This just doesn't make sense to me. If wherebugsgo is scum, Palmar probably is as well. But when I filter his posts I really don't get a strong read on him either way. Can I get some external input on him please? You don't like the looks of me because I don't think Palmar is mafia? That's a real strong argument you've got there. Why don't you actually analyze my posts? If you actually did that then you'd find a strong read on me. | ||
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
@Curu: His vote is an OMGUS onto Mig and he's done no real scumhunting or Town contributions of his own. Read the thread a bit closer please, Mig OMGUS'd me and I've given town "contribution of my own" plenty. Palmer didn't even respond back to me about my post/question to him: + Show Spoiler + On August 23 2011 00:40 chaoser wrote: + Show Spoiler [Quote from Palmar] + On August 22 2011 18:12 Palmar wrote: I think I've made my opinions pretty damn clear, but I've made some fundamental mistakes this game that stop town from considering my opinions as valid. I think I have laid down the most detailed analysis of someone in the thread that isn't completely based on meta, and I stand by my conclusions in that one. I'm fine with lynching Mig actually, there are multiple mafia in this game, and unlike sevryn I'd actually give him a 50% chance of flipping red. I'm much more convinced BB is scum though. I don't know Chaoser's meta so the argument made against him may therefore look weaker to me than it should. Hopefully others who know him will correctly push his lynch if they're right. Just to rehash, this remains my opinion: Forgive me if I'm just misreading what you wrote but are you saying BB is suspicious cause he wants to focus on inactives/lurkers because of the statement: when Navillus' main point day 1 was basically let's focus on killing as many inactives as possible, this will put the fear in them and make them more active and Foolishness' main point for wanting a mig lynch over a sevryn lynch is also about how sevryn will be more active? Also your point mentions one anecdotal example of "that's how I thought as mafia", which I hardly think is strong evidence of anything. Can I ask why you went after BB for one reason while you were silent about the others that also fell into that reason? Why not go after narvillus or foolishness? Harder targets? | ||
chaos13
Canada885 Posts
On August 23 2011 12:22 wherebugsgo wrote: You don't like the looks of me because I don't think Palmar is mafia? That's a real strong argument you've got there. Why don't you actually analyze my posts? If you actually did that then you'd find a strong read on me. How the fuck...? Did you even read my post? No, I think you're *possible* (please note that, as I'm not sure on you and if you look closely you'll be able to see that I asked others for their opinion on you) mafia because you seemed very sure of him being town, and then apparently went back and re-read his posts, at which point you found more reason to believe he was town but somehow seemed less sure of your town read on him. If you were so sure he was town, why did you have to go back and re-read? | ||
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 23 2011 12:19 Curu wrote: You got shot N1 in Personality and you weren't doing anything except trolling all day. I really don't like a case built on "I got shot so xxx is Mafia" as this assumes Mafia plays to their absolute dumbest and most predictable. The case against Mig is mostly meta, and he's stepping out of his invisible play. chaoser's accusations read like one big OMGUS, voting Mig on meta reasons too after being accused for meta reasons, you don't think there's some lazy vote parking and contradiction there either? If there's a scum in that pairing I would lean heavily towards chaoser. I don't know what OMGUS means. If you care about the town then type out what you want to say, don't hide behind acronyms. Mostly meta? I accused him of bad posting yesterday. Chaoser found a contradiction today. No meta there. I look at his past games to verify my accusations. So far it's not in his favor. If his attitude this game was like when he was town (XLIII for example) then I would rethink my analysis and would not be pushing him this hard. In response to "you don't think there's some lazy vote parking and contradiction there either?" no I don't. If there is point one out to me. Chaoser found a contradiction in Mig's post. That's pretty good in itself. I bring forth these arguments about "meta" because they serve as further evidence that I'm on the right track. On August 23 2011 12:19 Curu wrote: You got shot N1 in Personality and you weren't doing anything except trolling all day. I really don't like a case built on "I got shot so xxx is Mafia" as this assumes Mafia plays to their absolute dumbest and most predictable. You clearly did not read the last paragraph of my previous post. I'm not building a case on this. I'm not building a case on this. I'm not building a case on this. My case is built upon his contradiction and bad day 1 posting. Everything else I've said only builds on top of that. Look at the big picture. The individual pieces are what make the big picture, and that's where you find the mafia. Examining one individual piece does not find you mafia. For those that are wondering, I think xtfftc is town at the moment. I'm not thoroughly convinced, but the evidence against Mig just fits too well together. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
My defense is the truth you can choose not to believe me but that's how it is. Also didn't you initially vote for me partially because my first attack against sevryn I said he was lol scum? What was that too much confidence? And you are calling me out for blatant contradictions wtf? My post arguing for and against meta is not a contradiction there is good meta arguments and bad and your's was terrible. Look at the quotes from DB that is BLATANT contradictions. You are completely ignoring much stronger cases to tunnel me. Foolishness' entire case against me is A) a very poor meta argument about me not having enough confidence and B) he was shot last night lol. I urge people to read my case against dropbear with an open mind. The case against him is 10000x stronger. Virtually everything db has done falls perfectly in line with scum play. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 23 2011 12:29 Mig wrote: I am just stunned that you are trying to lynch based on something that wasn't even a contradiction and ignoring DB's posts which directly contradicted each other. I'm sure chaoser can tell you all about that. He's the one who found it. I already said that your case against DB is nice. I was going to make one tonight as well but you saved me some time. I actually thought you two were both mafia coming into today. | ||
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
On August 23 2011 12:34 Foolishness wrote: And where's the contradiction in DB's posts? The ones you quoted are nearly ~48 hours apart. Is a man not allowed to change his mind? He saw what chaoser and I posted against you at the beginning of the day and said the same thing we (chaoser and I did) "wow that's pretty good, must be mafia". How about the fact he voted for hiro because he didn't give any reasons behind his vote. Then voted me without listing a single reason and he had said there was no case against me. Are you really arguing that isn't a contradiction. I mean come on. | ||
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
For reference On August 22 2011 14:02 chaoser wrote: There is only conjecture as to who would hit you and also block you at the same time. This only matters, of course, if you're telling the truth. I've seen mafia claim to be roleblocked when they really haven't been, I really wouldn't put it pass mafia to claim they were also hit, especially if it's you who is claiming to be blocked. I'll have to sleep on this. That being said, mig, I have a question: you said that to foolishness about him using meta to place suspicions against you but then you turn around and post this: and yet have not provided examples of me acting the way I did as mafia. A bit hypocritical don't you think? What's with the flip flopping on stances? On one hand, you don't accept meta when it's against you, but on the other you use it freely against others? And to foolishness, mig seems like the one you are most suspicious of, and yet instead of voting for him and pushing hard, you backed off with a "I wouldn't mind lynching mig" followed by a "rayzorflash is an outstanding issue as well" When I was mafia in XXXVII I basically posted just that about a teammate and this was noted by Ver as something that mafia would do. Why aren't you pushing harder on mig? | ||
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