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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SCSpell/EMP_Round
I think it is 10. I realized you edited it, so sorry if I sounded mean.
Anyway, I hate people trying to compare Feedback v EMP. I would say that protoss gets the luxury of being able to have an observer and colossus to zone out the Ghosts, so it is a bit of a dance. If your HTs are in front, you will lose due to range (and if they EMP one HT it is a bit laughable). I think it just comes down to positioning and observer placement.
I'm still mixed on the 1/1/1 all-in. I think it could be a bit OP, but it might just need time for protoss to come up with a better solution to it. Phoenix play has been popping up as somewhat of a counter to it if I'm not mistaken. (lift tanks and rush in with zealot immortal?)
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On August 16 2011 07:14 rpgalon wrote:
"Yeah the protoss army control is probably easier, as protoss doesn't have as many micro tricks like constant kiting."
stop with this, or this thread is doomed
Eh... How about you disprove my post, rather than telling me to stop posting not to hurt peoples feelings?
I think its common knowledge that terran has a higher skill ceiling in many situations, and thats why the race does so well at highest levels of play (Korea). If anything protoss players want more micro tricks.
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On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
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I play random, and tvp and pvt are equally hard. Terran is harader at a lower level, but around masters+ protoss is alot harder to play in pvt than it is for terrans in tvp. I find the races are all fairly balanced, its just the fact that the current strategies and skill level is always up and down. I mean its nearly impossible to have a 50/50 winrate, and for example zvt, is really really close to 50/50. Like 52/48 which is still really good.
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On August 16 2011 07:10 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
blue flame hellion is too good imo against terran and zerg, a teir one unit that only cost 100 minerals should not be able to clear out an entire worker line in seconds, and there is no other counter part seen in the game currently. Bangling drops comes to mind, but zerg has to reseach ov speed, drop, and melee weapons +2 in order to have the same effect as two blue hellions. Hellions should cost gas or blue flame research should require an armory.
Agree on this, hellions that can decimate an entire worker line in a few shots should be a bit later on in the game, the armory thing would be good, although it makes early game tvt a lot more exciting
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
i don't think that the range makes that big of a deal, i think the templar move speed and no cloack/burrow hability is more problematic than the +1 range of the ghosts
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On August 16 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:07 Xenogears wrote:
Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.
I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.
Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss...
Hey. Thanks for the post! In the future you should just not talk about what Protoss needs to do at all, cause it's only gonna upset people. I don't want Zergs tellin me that siegin tanks is ez pz so us Terrans shouldnt tell Protoss that charging zealots is ezpz.
Yes I am sorry, but I didn't mean it in a bad way.
I know this is the way the races are meant to be played: Protoss is more of a defensive race and Terran is supposed to be aggressive or else they don't stand a chance.
I am not saying it is easy nor that I would rock at it, but I feel like there is this definite skill level where Terrans are struggling to actually make something happen because the Protosses are quite good at defending against drops and have amazing Forcefield controls.
Beyond this skill level I think this is fine.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they?
I think the 1/1/1 isnt "unbeatable" and may not need a nerf, but it likely does. I think we could use another month to figure it out, because the 1/1/1 was popular near release, faded away, and is now coming back. Protoss beat it before, can't they now? I think Artosis said fast Colossus works. The only thing I would really agree with would be a stalker vs banshee change. I'm not sure how it would be done. Giving the banshee +damage to light would make banshees worse against queens as well, which is fine because I'm a macro terran and don't do cheesy bullshit ( ). The only thing I dislike about giving banshees +damage to light is I like to use them to finish off infestors and that wouldn't work nearly as well anymore. W/e though I could accept it.
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I'd like to discuss the effects of EMP / Fungal Growth.
EMP: Drains 100 shield, 100 mana, decloaks
Fungal Growth: Damage, 100% snare, decloaks
Why are these two spells decloaking? It's not like they aren't strong enough damage / primary effect wise to warrant additional effects.
I'm currently trying to experiment with lots of Dt harass / Warp-Prism and Dts in main army.
Dts do ridiculous amount of damage when upgraded, but the harass is denied by basic stationary defense.
That's fine, but if you want to mix them in your army, for instance against zerg, you would have the chance to go for a phoenix / chargelot / dt build, or something similar, where you can force map control and effectively harass the zerg. And in the bigger fights you could try to snipe the overseers so that you're dts can help you out in the battle and you're gateway units aren't completely screwed. But the natural response to heavy phoenix / gateway heavy play is infestor, and he counters EVERYTHING. Snares the phoenix / stalker so you can't try to snipe overseers, i could live with that, you could try to force a better position to blink in, flank with the phoenixes etc.
But that's also completely nullified because he fungals your dts and then they become visible and attackable.
The same goes for terran, you could go gateway heavy with good upgrades and try to harass as much as possible with dts. And when he's forcing a fight sending dts to force scans.
But if he sees you're not going colossus he'll go medivac / ghost heavier, thus rendering your dt's obsolte in the fight.
Do these two caster really need decloaking? It makes Dts even more of a gimmicky unit, and easier to counter.
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On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
Bull***t bro, Feedback KILLS stuff, and Storm > EMP in terms of damages, don't even get me started....
You kill armies with storm (and no you can't dodge...), and you remove shield with EMP which is most of the time less an amount than HP...
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On August 16 2011 07:28 Elefanto wrote:
Do these two caster really need decloaking? It makes Dts even more of a gimmicky unit, and easier to counter.
Nope they don't. Although I somewhat understand that fungal decloaks because zerg doesn't have scan.
But the EMP-decloak is really pointless, basicly as if blizz wanted to make sure that terran definitely has the most efficient detection possibilities.
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On August 16 2011 07:27 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they? I think the 1/1/1 isnt "unbeatable" and may not need a nerf, but it likely does. I think we could use another month to figure it out, because the 1/1/1 was popular near release, faded away, and is now coming back. Protoss beat it before, can't they now? I think Artosis said fast Colossus works. The only thing I would really agree with would be a stalker vs banshee change. I'm not sure how it would be done. Giving the banshee +damage to light would make banshees worse against queens as well, which is fine because I'm a macro terran and don't do cheesy bullshit ( ). The only thing I dislike about giving banshees +damage to light is I like to use them to finish off infestors and that wouldn't work nearly as well anymore. W/e though I could accept it.
Protoss had less problem dealing with the 1-1-1 all in before the warp gate nerf because they could put more pressure on the terran before they get enough units out. The slower warp gate tech which was supposed to fix PvP was the reason 1-1-1 became stronger.
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Agree to the OP with the fact that PvT is diferently balanced at different levels, however, imo its totally imposible to balance the game at all levels. There are a lot of 1 base all-ins per race that are much easier to execute than to defend, so at lower levels, those pushes are "imba" for those low level players. Because of this, imo, the game should always be patched considering only the top level of play (aka where the game suffer less from human mistakes), aka korean results.
As a desing flaw, i see that terran is the most rewarding race per efficient apm, so the koreans with huge multi task capabilities can "abuse" (is not an abuse, is a reward for their high skills) of multi efficient drops that the race can offer, and, always, the player with the initiative (the "droper") normaly will have the "surprise" adventage (unless the drop is being scouted). This is more determinant in PvT because of the lack of mobility the P has, unless the P player have blink or a (kinda risky for the investment) phoenix play.
Also, again talking about top korean games, i feel that in long macro games, once the P korean player trades some armies, he is behind (also the race lacks of game changing mechanics, Qxc vs Genius style) because of the cost/production time/effectiveness per unit (this is even worse in PvZ, but that is another story), so because of that, every mistake the korean P makes, more punished than the other race (per mistake) he results.
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On August 16 2011 07:20 Demonace34 wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SCSpell/EMP_Round I think it is 10. I realized you edited it, so sorry if I sounded mean. Anyway, I hate people trying to compare Feedback v EMP. I would say that protoss gets the luxury of being able to have an observer and colossus to zone out the Ghosts, so it is a bit of a dance. If your HTs are in front, you will lose due to range (and if they EMP one HT it is a bit laughable). I think it just comes down to positioning and observer placement. I'm still mixed on the 1/1/1 all-in. I think it could be a bit OP, but it might just need time for protoss to come up with a better solution to it. Phoenix play has been popping up as somewhat of a counter to it if I'm not mistaken. (lift tanks and rush in with zealot immortal?)
No problem, I think i might have sounded a bit harsh too at first xD
On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
Definitely! But like I said earlier, I think that TvP is good in terms of the unit composition battle.
As Protoss, you need lots of forge upgrades and charge/blink to deal with MMM... the battle is about equal.
If you get Colossi instead, then Terran gets Vikings to counter.
Then protoss gets HT since vikings can't do much, and terran responds with ghosts.
Protoss goes back to Colossi to fight against Ghosts.
And then both sides keep switching or mixing ghost/viking and colossi/HT.
Correct me if I'm wrong, is a Colossi vs Ghost battle advantageous for the Protoss? I would assume so, but I don't go bio so I have barely any experience in this. I'm pretty sure it is, in which case I continue to feel and be satisfied by how well blizzard developed the game.
It is because of the slight advantage the ghost has over the HT that you described that I feel makes this matchup "good".
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On August 16 2011 07:31 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:27 Techno wrote:On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they? I think the 1/1/1 isnt "unbeatable" and may not need a nerf, but it likely does. I think we could use another month to figure it out, because the 1/1/1 was popular near release, faded away, and is now coming back. Protoss beat it before, can't they now? I think Artosis said fast Colossus works. The only thing I would really agree with would be a stalker vs banshee change. I'm not sure how it would be done. Giving the banshee +damage to light would make banshees worse against queens as well, which is fine because I'm a macro terran and don't do cheesy bullshit ( ). The only thing I dislike about giving banshees +damage to light is I like to use them to finish off infestors and that wouldn't work nearly as well anymore. W/e though I could accept it. Protoss had less problem dealing with the 1-1-1 all in before the warp gate nerf because they could put more pressure on the terran before they get enough units out. The slower warp gate tech which was supposed to fix PvP was the reason 1-1-1 became stronger.
The difference isn't that huge though, something like 8 seconds if you save up enough chrono for the entire duration of WG tech right?
Edit: I know that no one is actually saving 5 or 6 chronos for WG anymore because they focus on econ, but maybe cutting econ for a faster 3 WG pressure into expand is better? I don't know the timing on the first tank or banshee coming out on the 1/1/1. (Diamond Terrans suck and don't do 1/1/1 all-in).
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Edit: Holy frick i ALWAYS thought it was 9 range! so they have even slightly more of an edge over HT (like they're supposed to as soft to hard counters in TvP) and actually outrange Neural/fungals o.o wow didn't know Edit2: Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they?
Don't forget emp splashes and the maximum centre is at 10 so in actual fact it can go up to 11 range
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Terran I believe at the highest levels is favoured versus protoss... They're starting to get 10+ ghosts to emp the WHOLE army, and most of the time they have good enough micro to emp the HTs in time due to their higher range.
Blue flame hellions aren't that big of a problem, but they pretty much destroy the Zealot/Archon composition.
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On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
I can definitely see why you feel like this, but I think EMPing HTs is more work than other strategies capable of winning the game. And your right about the chargelots, they actually interfere with EMP more than you might think. I know that as Terran, if I am not the aggressor in an engagement against Protoss with Chargelot/templar, it's usually already too late. Chargelots will be touching my Marauders, and HTs are seconds from storming.
One that that annoys me:
It seems to my Terran biased inferior mind that if a Protoss with a nearby pylon (or god forbid a warp prism) barely wins an engagement, he can do a ton of economic damage against non planetary fortresses, or against PFs if he has Colossus/Storms still, simply because of his instant reinforcements, often numbering around 20-30 supply worth in a single warp in. But if a Terran barely wins an engagement, it can often be cleaned up by a wave or 2 of Chargelots and perhaps a storm. Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement, which is annoying, but not really a problem.
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On August 16 2011 07:33 ClueLessx3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Edit: Holy frick i ALWAYS thought it was 9 range! so they have even slightly more of an edge over HT (like they're supposed to as soft to hard counters in TvP) and actually outrange Neural/fungals o.o wow didn't know Edit2: Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they? Don't forget emp splashes and the maximum centre is at 10 so in actual fact it can go up to 11 range
It goes up to 12 actually 10+2, but I highly doubt people EMP good enough to hit HT at 12 range regularly.
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On August 16 2011 07:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, is a Colossi vs Ghost battle advantageous for the Protoss? I would assume so, but I don't go bio so I have barely any experience in this. I'm pretty sure it is, in which case I continue to feel and be satisfied by how well blizzard developed the game.
It is because of the slight advantage the ghost has over the HT that you described that I feel makes this matchup "good".
Colossi vs ghost is definitely advantageous for toss, terran needs those vikings desperately. No shields don't matter if terran has nothing that can actually get in range of colossi. This is what makes lategame TvP balanced in my opinion, because terran has to react to the toss composition. If terran either over- or underproduces vikings compared to HTs, they mostly end up dead. They definitely need to match the "counter"-composition.
On August 16 2011 07:30 Xenogears wrote:
Bull***t bro, Feedback KILLS stuff, and Storm > EMP in terms of damages, don't even get me started....
Sigh, so it begins. Wouldn't have expected that you can discuss balance on a mature level without anyways...
Ghosts also have the ability to snipe, you know? Which doesn't even require the opponent to have energy on it and can also be used while running around cloaked. Doh.
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EPT
