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Since my topick about hellbat drops play gathered many responses and attention, i would like to continue this thread with discussing the solution made by Blizzard.
Main points in my last thread:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
So what Blizzard decided to do:
1. We weaken your race.
2. We agree terran not imba
3. We buff your banshee.
4. This change will affect both bio and mech terran in different ways (will be discussed further in this topick)
First opinion on this patch: good one. It was something called APPROPRIATE CHANGE. However, there are questions without answers for me. Let's try to watch on each matchup closer:
TvT:
[+] Hellbat-vikings beginning was nerfed.
[+] Almost noone (except some koreans) used banshees, especially inviz one. Now, probably, it can be used
[-] I am a bit scared that banshee will cause paper/stone/scissors openers problem, like it was in WoL.
General conclusion. It looks like a very good idea for TvT, which will bring a thon of new openers.Spectators like that!
TvZ:
[+] Hellion/Banshee terrans will probably get a new life
[+] Will be very interesting to see, if 2 starport invizible banshees strategies can now work
[-] Zergs won't be scared of hellbat drops as much.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats, since they will need 2-nd factory with techlab.
General conclusion. I doubt this patch will help zergs. They were scared by hellbats, now they will be scared by banshees. Probably, it's even a buff for terran in TvZ, because hellbats still can be rather dangerous, but now zerg has to think also about banshees. Also, i like, that mech terran can still use hellbats late game and bio terrans can't. I think - that's fair, because mech terrans HAVE to use hellbat openers and bio terrans can skip them.
TvP:
[+]
[-] Hellbat openers are useless now.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats in midgames, until they get really good eco to afford all those upgrades. So they will deal some problems in that stage of game with mass zeals + mothership core slow.
[-] Banshees will be still useless in TvP because of mothership core (probably overcharge needs to be only against ground units?) and rather big possibilty of stargate openers.
General conclusion.I have a feeling, that terrans will struggle hard against protosses after this patch. As a mech terran - it won't affect me that much (still it affects), but bio terrans can have problems. Hellbats had rather important function game - they tanked zealots. They could be pumbed immediately after armory ended for 2-2 upgrades. On that stage finding extra 200-175 (+maybe 50/50 for switching to reactor) will break an idea of timing pushes. So now, most likely, terran won't be able to push, because with good usage of mothership core, it can be very hard to hit and run with pure bio. Usually i try to avoid solutions regarding balance changes, but, probably, you need to work with protoss overcharge against air units, so banshees could work better and bring some danger to protosses.
Still, the patch seems to be good, let's see how it works. GL HF!
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Good points as usual, Strelok. One thing though, do you really think Hellbats will be useless against zealots late game TvP? there is still the Blue Flame upgrade that will give them the same damage as pre-patch, so i would assume mid-game zealot, archon, HT comps will be difficult to react to since you have to get a factory with a tech lab and then research the upgrade rather than just get factory/reactor and then you're good. But late game I don't think they will be useless, but what do you think?
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Yeah, I agree with KiLL_ORdeR - There is the upgrade option, but personally I find that the hellbats health is more vital to dealing with zealots cuz they tank better than marines. The damage output isn't as crucial to the hellbats cuz there's bio behind it doing tons of damage.
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On July 09 2013 05:42 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
since you have to get a factory with a tech lab and then research the upgrade rather than just get factory/reactor and then you're good.
For terran it won't be easy to find easy 200/175, after that 50+50. If before that 5 hellbats ahead your army costed you just 500 free minerals, now it cost 750/225, and i don't even talk about time. They will appear 3 mins later then usual as the least.
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Yeah I don't think it'll be easy for Terrans to get the upgrade 'just like that' as a bio player. It's a large cost + need a tech lab 
I'm kinda wondering though if hellbats will be as useless as you're making them out to be. with 135 health, and medivac regeneration - I'd imagine they'd still serve as a good buffer for bio users? The overall damage of the bio ball will be lower, but maybe they'll still be worth investing in vs zealot heavy comp? Plus aoe is always nice even with the dmg decrease.
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Yes I agree.
This change has massive implications beyond just "stopping the drop rush in TvT". I feel like even though hellbat drops were more or less standard in TvT I have gotten pretty used to countering them with mines and rallying units into my mineral line to catch drops as they come in and it rarely ended the game it was just early harass which lead into the mid-game.
If you decide to mix in hellbats you will most likely go 2x factory and have a tech lab on one which will research the upgrade. If you just go 1x factory with tech lab it seems to me that it would not be worth it really to go through the hassle of getting the upgrade with such limited production for the hellbat.
It will take much more time and investment to field hellbats against protoss in specific and while the research is going the hellbats are sadly more or less paper weights / a liability.
Only part I disagree with is that I don't think Zerg's will be too scared about banshees. Due to the ease you can scout starport with techlab with overlord, spore without evo, and the fact that banshee tech is sort of out there unlike say a hellbat or mine harass which gives you useful tech for your main army going into the mid-game going banshee harass is a much bigger risk and sets you back further if it doesn't work than a hellbat or mine drop does.
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I felt the real problem was that medivac boost didn't have a penalty for being used. This in turn made the hellbats healable easily and if they did make the boost cost energy it would make it possible to get the medivac energy upgrade more. This would make it so that hellbats are strongest at the start with fresh medivacs but as time goes on medivacs won't have energy to constantly keep harassing and harassment would be slowed. Getting to the mineral line so fast imo seemed to be the problem and even that boosting over the marine army and dropping the hellbats for instant kill seemed too powerful. Having this change would indeed messed up TvZ and TvP but not quite mid-late game since terrans usually have medivacs with near full energy anyway.
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double starport vs zerg wont work, no evo chamber required for spores renders cloak useless
also its really really bad tvp now, in hots protoss finally transitioned out of amove mass zealot lategame, now its back!
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This affects bio more than mech. Bio uses Reactored factories only. Mech uses Tech Lab factories. Only one can upgrade blue flame. The cost is same for both strats.
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why didnt Blizz just nerf the drop hellbats, and leave the regular use of hellbats alone?
only the drop hellbats were overpowered
easy to nerf drop hellbats, just make them take up more space in the medivac, only 1 hellbat +2 marines fit into a medivac
that way they are still useful in straight up (non-drop) engagements
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Bisutopia19320 Posts
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
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I won't believe in mech outside TvT until I see it.
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On July 09 2013 07:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
You'd have to make speed on medivacs require an upgrade, then, as this is the only thing letting protoss survive speed medivacs currently.
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On July 09 2013 07:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
i don't think anybody would research that until lategame because it would be better to just have more anti-air units on 1 or 2 base rather than a slightly improved spell. at the moment u really only use overcharge vs air against void ray all ins, medivacs as they are running away, or to stall a bit vs mutas until you can get something else to deal with them.
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They never said they nerfed the Hellbats because they are imba. They nerfed them because they are not fun to watch at all so they want to make them less used.
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"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it.
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On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it.
now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
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I don't think zergs are scared of banshees, spores are available before evo these days, so banshees can't catch them off guard.
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It feels like they take away more than they are giving back with that particular nerf/buff.
well see what ppl do with it, they are usually so inventive :D
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Regarding the tech-lab, from a protoss PoV:
It's fairly common for terran's to add a second starport lategame to produce 3 vikings at a time, if needed. If the blue flame is required, could the techlab later be swapped to the starport just in case a raven is wanted? It's not an efficient use of resources, but it does give some extra options.
Alternatively, the tech lab could later be swapped onto a barracks for extra ghost production.
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EPT
