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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
2 supply is pretty genius actually, because it makes bio + WM inferior to zerg late game and thus create an incentive for the terran player to attack/army trade against the zerg player.
Further, since the most frustrating part of widow mines (from the opponents perspective) is when they are used to prevent ling harass/muta harass (as it makes the game less fun to play as zerg), it makes sense to keep it as a high supply unit to make it used for offensive purposes the most.
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Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Someone mentioned the 2-2 archon timing that would be hard to stop now, and I was thinking I'd still go hellbat against that, would I die if I didn't get the upgrade?
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On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Someone mentioned the 2-2 archon timing that would be hard to stop now, and I was thinking I'd still go hellbat against that, would I die if I didn't get the upgrade?
I'm not sure, but I feel like mass hellbats would beat mass zealots due to the splash, but on one-on-one, I feel like they would trade fairly even.
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On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines.
Equal cost isn't relevant since Protoss can have 20 Zealots before you even get 4 Hellbats. Timings and production are what matters against 2-0-2 zeal/archons attacks.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Equal cost isn't relevant since Protoss can have 20 Zealots before you even get 4 Hellbats. Timings and production are what matters against 2-0-2 zeal/archons attacks.
But it does matter what else terran will have at that timing, and so on and so forth. Discussing this stuff in a vacuum isn't particularly helpful, but it's the only way we can have a discussion at all.
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
I urged them over and over during the beta to test the mine at 1 supply and tweak it's stats accordingly. They refused 
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We also were numerous to ask for a self-resplinishing minefield in the Beta. And they didn't answered nor even tried it out.
Could have been really cool IMO. With some kind of a creep tumor mechanic or like olds BW vultures but without any other purpose for the unit than the mines. Could have been used in every terran playstyles and offensively as well as defensively.
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I think the banshee buff will be completely useless and go largely unnoticed while the hellbat nerf will cause a lot of suffering.
Z has spores after SP now, protoss have stargate openers + msc that totally shut down cloakshees and T almost always gets a >>6m engy bay anyway.
I think hellbat drops needed a nerf but I'm sensing a lot of increased frustration @ TvP in general. Protoss gets to do too much for free now with MSC.
I would have preferred making speed on medivacs either cost energy or require a research for usage. Speedvacs were introduced to keep drops viable mid-lategame, it's dumb that they start out with it IMO.
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iaguz is most spot on... starting to feel alot like WoL. sad times to be a terran ^^
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that:
mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units.
so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding.
this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good.
what do people think?
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Good post by Strelok, those are my thoughts exactly. Not sure if it's necessary good for TvT, it'll mean longer games which isn't always so entertaining particularly on smaller maps.
TvP is getting hit hard, won't be suprised to see most Terrans revert back to the 14 minute SCV all in train, cos Protoss have a even bigger advantage now than they had previously. Win rates will start to lean towards Protoss until 60-40, before Blizzard realises they broke the matchup and buff ghosts.
TvZ - yes slightly buff, although gimicky hellbat marauder all ins will be much harder to pull off. Hellion banshee has always been the most solid 3CC opening for Terran, expect to see Kespa guys adopting this. There are some potential shenanigans that can be pulled off going widow mine banshee.
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On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think?
I think 1 supply mines are a nightmare unless they change the underlying mechanics of how they work. Let me attack them when they become visible before they go off. Give them a limited number of charges. Do ANYTHING to keep Terrans from randomly placing low-cost, invisible, self-refreshing explosive devices all over the map.
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You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz.
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On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think?
I love the idea, but the issue here is that Blizzard doesn't want to slow down the game by adding lots of defensive units. In fact, they want to do the opposite. They've openly said that they believe that Siege Tanks and the play they promote is boring (yet they added the Swarm Host), and prefer to see Widow Mines being used offensively to Siege Tanks.
I think it is time for Blizzard to get a new design team. The community seems to be at odds with the direction of the design team.
On July 10 2013 04:19 Lock0n wrote:
TvP is getting hit hard, won't be suprised to see most Terrans revert back to the 14 minute SCV all in train, cos Protoss have a even bigger advantage now than they had previously.
Wait what? Where is this advantage Protoss has? It certainly isn't reflected in results or winrates... http://aligulac.com/reports/
Certainly Terrans probably find TvZ easier, and that is reflected in the winrates too, but that doesn't mean Terran isn't winning more than Protoss.
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These changes are ridiculous.
Cheaper cloak banshee will only affect TvT, because Zerg and Protoss makes early detection anyway for widow mines.
The detection is also very cheap and easy to come by, 1 spore/cannon per base or oracle/observer + MsCore Overcharge to defend. There is a reason why banshees(especially /w cloak) are rarely used in HoTs at high level play in TvP and TvZ.
What these changes do, is make the use of hellbats in real army situations more difficult.
They will be useless before their upgrade and if you are playing bio, you will have to spend extra resources/time on having a factory with a tech lab for 3minutes,making 1 hellbat per cycle, which in the end means it's not a viable option for bio.If you are using mines as well then you will be stuck with a factory and a tech lab for a very long time.
The simple answer to hellbat drop is to remove the BIO tag, so that medivacs can't heal them anymore,thus reducing the drop potency and allowing you to defend the drops with a few units since they won't be able to heal up constantly.
That is were the real issue lies, not rendering the hellbat useless until 3+ bases.
What will happen now we are swapping hellbat drops to fast cloak banshees for TvT only, while removing the hellbat from bio in the other matchups.
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On July 10 2013 05:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think? I think 1 supply mines are a nightmare unless they change the underlying mechanics of how they work. Let me attack them when they become visible before they go off. Give them a limited number of charges. Do ANYTHING to keep Terrans from randomly placing low-cost, invisible, self-refreshing explosive devices all over the map.
i think you are looking at it, as if they have the effects they do now. if their strength is reduced radically, so that it isn't going to upright kill anything, unles you aren't map aware.
Every race already has overseers/obs/scans with their army, this isn't going to change if you reduce their cost/power, it just means that in tvz and tvp, they can be utilised in a more clever way, than just run in burrow, stim away let them kill everything, marine split, to mop up the rest. or in tvp, where defensively they are used in the early/midgame, but lategame, they are just not used at all(currently because of the hellbat being stronger more efficient in terms of pop.) this will invite more mech play aswell, as you would have a tier 1 mech unit, that isn't ridiculously expensive, but can be used defensively at the start for mech, but is also mobile, enough to be used aggressively aswell.
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Whilst I am all for making early hellbat drop play redundant in TvT I feel very sad about this change for the future of Terran in the other matchups. Recently I've been seeing a lot of new TvP and TvZ builds that revolve around hellbat harrass and biobat timings. I felt like this added a fresh dynamic to the Terran matchups that finally forced the other races to actually have to scout what is happening, Rather than just scout to make sure they aren't against some kind of bizarre play. It was finally starting to feel like the evolution of a new game, new possibilities, new things being figured out, a viable unit to deal with mass zealots. Now this, I may be a cynic but I really feel like this change is going to make Terran take a step back.
I really don't see why they couldn't just introduce an upgrade to allow medivacs to heal hellbats. I feel pretty confident that most Terran players > masters would feel like the problem isn't the fact they kill so easily but rather the fact that they get healed to full in between stutter steps (especially frustrating when the only units during early drops are unstimmed mm and hellions.) I think the funniest part is that post patch, if they hit early, they will probably still wreck mineral lines with relative ease when there are double drops. It seems so simple, yet I can only assume I'm an idiot that is missing something crucial..
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On July 10 2013 18:55 Beatmania wrote:
Whilst I am all for making early hellbat drop play redundant in TvT I feel very sad about this change for the future of Terran in the other matchups. Recently I've been seeing a lot of new TvP and TvZ builds that revolve around hellbat harrass and biobat timings. I felt like this added a fresh dynamic to the Terran matchups that finally forced the other races to actually have to scout what is happening, Rather than just scout to make sure they aren't against some kind of bizarre play. It was finally starting to feel like the evolution of a new game, new possibilities, new things being figured out, a viable unit to deal with mass zealots. Now this, I may be a cynic but I really feel like this change is going to make Terran take a step back.
I really don't see why they couldn't just introduce an upgrade to allow medivacs to heal hellbats. I feel pretty confident that most Terran players > masters would feel like the problem isn't the fact they kill so easily but rather the fact that they get healed to full in between stutter steps (especially frustrating when the only units during early drops are unstimmed mm and hellions.) I think the funniest part is that post patch, if they hit early, they will probably still wreck mineral lines with relative ease when there are double drops. It seems so simple, yet I can only assume I'm an idiot that is missing something crucial..
They could not make an upgrade to make hellbat healable, or pure mech simply because that still make them imba esp in tvt.
135 hp was so tanky that let them to destroy enough (200 mineral for 2 hellbats).
Edit: so I think dmg nerf was neccessary change but maybe it was too much? 
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And as many of us already know that buffing banshee in this way would'nt help in TvZ / TvP. I thought banshee should be scary like w3 but waht happend to this woman
I hope one static defence wouldn't shut down banshee that hard :0
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On July 10 2013 05:56 9-BiT wrote:
You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz.
Mech is unviable in any matchup, not just TvZ. I have yet to see a meching player survive any sort of early game gateway timing and here are some statistics I can give you to show that the Siege Tank in particular is underpowered
Siege Tank in Brood War. Did 70 Explosive damage or 70 to Large, 52.5 to Medium or 35 to Small.
Siege Tank in SC2 does 35 damage or 50 vs Armored units.
Hydralisks in BW and SC2 have 80 HP. It takes 2 hits to kill a Hydralisk in Brood War and 3 hits to kill one in SC2. Roaches likewise take the same amount of hits to kill. This seriously ups the viability of Roach Hydra massively.
Ultralisks in SC2 not only have 100 more HP (which makes them OP as fuck) but also take less damage from the Siege Tank. An Ultralisk in Brood War took six siege tank shells to kill. An Ultralisk in StarCraft II takes ten siege tank shells to kill. This assumes equal upgrades and not the 5-3 that Ultralisk players usually go for.
Anybody who has ever tried to fight Ultralisks with a late game Mech or MMMM comp knows it's like trying to fight a fucking mountain. Not even twenty Marauders can burn down Ultralisks quickly enough to not get closed down and slaughtered. The amount of micro required to even trade equally let alone efficiently against a flurry of 11+ Ultralisks with ling reinforcements roaring straight at you is such that only a godlike player like Flash or Innovation can pull it off. Even if you had made several Banshees, you'd likely not get the Ship Weapons upgrade because you need to get Vehicle Weapons and Vehicle Plating to bolster up your Mech army and you'd watch six ships in the air tickling something that bulldozes your base.
Immortals have 200 Life and 100 Shields, However, their Hardened Shields ability mean they take up to 10 damage from a higher hitting ability. This means that an Immortal takes FOURTEEN Siege Tank shells to kill.
Compare that to the Archon which had 360 effective HP (10 Life and 350 Shields.) In Brood War they took six shells to kill. In StarCraft II they take ELEVEN to kill. They are the second tankiest unit against the Siege Tank, second only to the Immortal.
Then there's the Colossus which has 200 Life and 150 Shields, taking seven shells to kill. Compare this to the Reaver which only took three and due to its much slower speed pretty much had to be drop microed.
And what about the Stalker and Dragoon? Stalkers have 20 less effective HP with 20 less Life than a Dragoon yet they take four hits to kill unlike the Dragoon's three. Why is this? Siege Tank damage got over-nerfed. Worse, Dragoons had borderline-retarded AI pathing and Stalkers not only have decent AI but can also Blink, instantly entering the Dead Zone of Siege Tanks.
It's much like a Rogue vs a Hunter pre-Wrath.
I think the best solution to solve the issues of Mech is to buff the Siege Tank so that the damage is:
35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive.)
Why? Marauders and Roaches would still get three-shotted while Stalkers would now get three-shotted too. The damage bonus against Massive is so that the Archon and Ultralisk no longer become the Terran soft-counter. The only thing that the SC2 Siege Tank has going for itself is that it attacks a little bit faster and doesn't have overkill. Otherwise it's a turd that is actually more expensive than it was in Brood War.
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EPT
