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Since my topick about hellbat drops play gathered many responses and attention, i would like to continue this thread with discussing the solution made by Blizzard.
Main points in my last thread:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
So what Blizzard decided to do:
1. We weaken your race.
2. We agree terran not imba
3. We buff your banshee.
4. This change will affect both bio and mech terran in different ways (will be discussed further in this topick)
First opinion on this patch: good one. It was something called APPROPRIATE CHANGE. However, there are questions without answers for me. Let's try to watch on each matchup closer:
TvT:
[+] Hellbat-vikings beginning was nerfed.
[+] Almost noone (except some koreans) used banshees, especially inviz one. Now, probably, it can be used
[-] I am a bit scared that banshee will cause paper/stone/scissors openers problem, like it was in WoL.
General conclusion. It looks like a very good idea for TvT, which will bring a thon of new openers.Spectators like that!
TvZ:
[+] Hellion/Banshee terrans will probably get a new life
[+] Will be very interesting to see, if 2 starport invizible banshees strategies can now work
[-] Zergs won't be scared of hellbat drops as much.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats, since they will need 2-nd factory with techlab.
General conclusion. I doubt this patch will help zergs. They were scared by hellbats, now they will be scared by banshees. Probably, it's even a buff for terran in TvZ, because hellbats still can be rather dangerous, but now zerg has to think also about banshees. Also, i like, that mech terran can still use hellbats late game and bio terrans can't. I think - that's fair, because mech terrans HAVE to use hellbat openers and bio terrans can skip them.
TvP:
[+]
[-] Hellbat openers are useless now.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats in midgames, until they get really good eco to afford all those upgrades. So they will deal some problems in that stage of game with mass zeals + mothership core slow.
[-] Banshees will be still useless in TvP because of mothership core (probably overcharge needs to be only against ground units?) and rather big possibilty of stargate openers.
General conclusion.I have a feeling, that terrans will struggle hard against protosses after this patch. As a mech terran - it won't affect me that much (still it affects), but bio terrans can have problems. Hellbats had rather important function game - they tanked zealots. They could be pumbed immediately after armory ended for 2-2 upgrades. On that stage finding extra 200-175 (+maybe 50/50 for switching to reactor) will break an idea of timing pushes. So now, most likely, terran won't be able to push, because with good usage of mothership core, it can be very hard to hit and run with pure bio. Usually i try to avoid solutions regarding balance changes, but, probably, you need to work with protoss overcharge against air units, so banshees could work better and bring some danger to protosses.
Still, the patch seems to be good, let's see how it works. GL HF!
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Good points as usual, Strelok. One thing though, do you really think Hellbats will be useless against zealots late game TvP? there is still the Blue Flame upgrade that will give them the same damage as pre-patch, so i would assume mid-game zealot, archon, HT comps will be difficult to react to since you have to get a factory with a tech lab and then research the upgrade rather than just get factory/reactor and then you're good. But late game I don't think they will be useless, but what do you think?
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Yeah, I agree with KiLL_ORdeR - There is the upgrade option, but personally I find that the hellbats health is more vital to dealing with zealots cuz they tank better than marines. The damage output isn't as crucial to the hellbats cuz there's bio behind it doing tons of damage.
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On July 09 2013 05:42 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
since you have to get a factory with a tech lab and then research the upgrade rather than just get factory/reactor and then you're good.
For terran it won't be easy to find easy 200/175, after that 50+50. If before that 5 hellbats ahead your army costed you just 500 free minerals, now it cost 750/225, and i don't even talk about time. They will appear 3 mins later then usual as the least.
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Yeah I don't think it'll be easy for Terrans to get the upgrade 'just like that' as a bio player. It's a large cost + need a tech lab 
I'm kinda wondering though if hellbats will be as useless as you're making them out to be. with 135 health, and medivac regeneration - I'd imagine they'd still serve as a good buffer for bio users? The overall damage of the bio ball will be lower, but maybe they'll still be worth investing in vs zealot heavy comp? Plus aoe is always nice even with the dmg decrease.
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Yes I agree.
This change has massive implications beyond just "stopping the drop rush in TvT". I feel like even though hellbat drops were more or less standard in TvT I have gotten pretty used to countering them with mines and rallying units into my mineral line to catch drops as they come in and it rarely ended the game it was just early harass which lead into the mid-game.
If you decide to mix in hellbats you will most likely go 2x factory and have a tech lab on one which will research the upgrade. If you just go 1x factory with tech lab it seems to me that it would not be worth it really to go through the hassle of getting the upgrade with such limited production for the hellbat.
It will take much more time and investment to field hellbats against protoss in specific and while the research is going the hellbats are sadly more or less paper weights / a liability.
Only part I disagree with is that I don't think Zerg's will be too scared about banshees. Due to the ease you can scout starport with techlab with overlord, spore without evo, and the fact that banshee tech is sort of out there unlike say a hellbat or mine harass which gives you useful tech for your main army going into the mid-game going banshee harass is a much bigger risk and sets you back further if it doesn't work than a hellbat or mine drop does.
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I felt the real problem was that medivac boost didn't have a penalty for being used. This in turn made the hellbats healable easily and if they did make the boost cost energy it would make it possible to get the medivac energy upgrade more. This would make it so that hellbats are strongest at the start with fresh medivacs but as time goes on medivacs won't have energy to constantly keep harassing and harassment would be slowed. Getting to the mineral line so fast imo seemed to be the problem and even that boosting over the marine army and dropping the hellbats for instant kill seemed too powerful. Having this change would indeed messed up TvZ and TvP but not quite mid-late game since terrans usually have medivacs with near full energy anyway.
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double starport vs zerg wont work, no evo chamber required for spores renders cloak useless
also its really really bad tvp now, in hots protoss finally transitioned out of amove mass zealot lategame, now its back!
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This affects bio more than mech. Bio uses Reactored factories only. Mech uses Tech Lab factories. Only one can upgrade blue flame. The cost is same for both strats.
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why didnt Blizz just nerf the drop hellbats, and leave the regular use of hellbats alone?
only the drop hellbats were overpowered
easy to nerf drop hellbats, just make them take up more space in the medivac, only 1 hellbat +2 marines fit into a medivac
that way they are still useful in straight up (non-drop) engagements
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
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I won't believe in mech outside TvT until I see it.
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On July 09 2013 07:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
You'd have to make speed on medivacs require an upgrade, then, as this is the only thing letting protoss survive speed medivacs currently.
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On July 09 2013 07:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Why not have overcharge be upgraded to attack air researched at core or something?
I would like to hear your opinion on what should happen to thors.
i don't think anybody would research that until lategame because it would be better to just have more anti-air units on 1 or 2 base rather than a slightly improved spell. at the moment u really only use overcharge vs air against void ray all ins, medivacs as they are running away, or to stall a bit vs mutas until you can get something else to deal with them.
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They never said they nerfed the Hellbats because they are imba. They nerfed them because they are not fun to watch at all so they want to make them less used.
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"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it.
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On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it.
now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
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I don't think zergs are scared of banshees, spores are available before evo these days, so banshees can't catch them off guard.
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It feels like they take away more than they are giving back with that particular nerf/buff.
well see what ppl do with it, they are usually so inventive :D
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Regarding the tech-lab, from a protoss PoV:
It's fairly common for terran's to add a second starport lategame to produce 3 vikings at a time, if needed. If the blue flame is required, could the techlab later be swapped to the starport just in case a raven is wanted? It's not an efficient use of resources, but it does give some extra options.
Alternatively, the tech lab could later be swapped onto a barracks for extra ghost production.
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Late game Hellbats don't change once you research BFH.
So the only difference is that you will make 3 Hellbats from a tech lab Factory while the upgrade researches. Then you can swap for a reactor and make exactly the same Hellbat you had before.
Terran doesn't need blue flame hellbats to deal with mid-game Protoss Chargelot Archon. They were dealing with it just fine in WoL before the Hellbat existed.
I think the changes are both fine. Hellbat should affect mostly TvT.. P and Z who are paying attention can usually avoid losing workers to them by reacting quickly as they move quite slowly.
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If you think that Bio will be weak vs mass zealot late game, what about moving the blueflame upgrade to the armory? Sure all upgrades should be in tech labs but w/e it would solve the problem I think.
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On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
You sound like a ghost user in early 2012.
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On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012.
are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
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As far as Hellbat vs Zealot goes, I think they should still do fine. They still have a ton of health and splash damage. They're going to go from OMGWTFBBQ good to merely pretty good, at least in my opinion.
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On July 09 2013 07:52 Rui.S wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012. are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
just another unmoderated act of trolling on the TL forums
adds nothing to the discussion, just looking for an angry response, don't even respond
User was temp banned for this post.
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I really don't think hellbats need to be nerfed. Banshees are cheaper, but you aren't going to see them vs zerg much, spores are up before an evo, so pretty easy to defend against. Maybe the 1/1/1 build will be back ?
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On July 09 2013 07:52 Rui.S wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012. are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
TvP actually, for a long time all the stress was that templars were op, because there was no counter to storm anymore now that ghosts were useless, and so on. The ghost nerf was MUCH bigger than the hellbat nerf is, and after a while terrans realized that ghosts were still essential in TvP.
But you probably shouldn't listen to me, I have a difference of opinion with c0sm0naut, I'm obviously a troll.
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[B]On July 09 2013 08:09 Nebuchad wrote:
But you probably shouldn't listen to me, I have a difference of opinion with c0sm0naut, I'm obviously a troll.
If you think this is why I consider your posts to be harassment, maybe you should reread your writing and consider your tone as well as actual interest in discussion
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Anyone who says lategame Hellbats will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 150/150, which is negligible in the lategame! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack.
Edit-Fixed numbers
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"topick", somehow i read it as toothpick :D
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On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
[-] Hellbat openers are useless now.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats. So they will deal some problems in late game with mass zeals + mothership core slow.
[-] Banshees will be still useless in TvP because of mothership core (probably overcharge needs to be only against ground units?) and rather big possibilty of stargate openers.
Overcharge only being good against Ground units is very bad because Overcharge is a big part of defense against Mutas.
In general, I think the better reaction would be a Range nerf. Something that would allow a Banshee to come in, get hit, and still get out without getting destroyed.
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Italy12246 Posts
There were several marine/tank TvZ builds in wol that went 2fact tank on 3bases in WoL, so we know that it is in fact possible to add tech labs to something that isnt a rax in the mid/lategame. Which begs the question, why exactly can you not add in hellbats lategame after the patch?
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I think they should give Tanks a slight buff. Mech rights now is simply not that good or viable in any matchup--people always talk about the uselessness of Tanks in TvP, but they're not exactly that great in the other matchups either. Buffing tanks would not only be a buff to mech directly, it would also make having a tech lab on your factory a lot less onerous.
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On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
I've seen in TvZ people make a second factory for a tech lab and crank out widow mines 3 at a time while upgrading drilling claws, is that not viable in TvP, only with hellbats instead of mines? I play zerg so I don't really know the kind of production you need on hellbats to make them do well, but the upgrade takes the same amount of time and people get it anyway.
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I thnk for 100 minerals you still get a damn good unit.
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On July 09 2013 08:22 Fig wrote:
Anyone who says lategame TvP will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 100/100! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack.
No, it requires time (takes quite a while to research the blue flame) and even more resources (read: building extra factory with techlab for total of 350/275), or APM for floating buildings / swapping addons and limiting your production (you can build only 1 hellbat at a time with the TL and 0 when you are making the TL).
This will make both the roach-ling-bane all-in an muta-ling-bling styles much stronger vs T, also dealing with aggressive protosses with the speed prisms will be harder. At the same time any hellbat-marauder attacks will be easier to stop.
I think this is enough to give the T a serious kick in the balls, pushing them into "I need to end this before 15m" builds once again.
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On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
TvP:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
I think this is a little inaccurate. Hellbats are still good, this just delays their stupidly good cost efficiency. You can easily afford blueflame somewhere between early game and 15-20 minutes as a bio terran. Just need 1 factory with techlab then switch it with a reactor'd rax once you're done researching and viola, hellbats are good as they prepatch.
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On July 09 2013 08:27 Teoita wrote:
There were several marine/tank TvZ builds in wol that went 2fact tank on 3bases in WoL, so we know that it is in fact possible to add tech labs to something that isnt a rax in the mid/lategame. Which begs the question, why exactly can you not add in hellbats lategame after the patch?
completly irrelevant
On July 09 2013 08:50 Ry2D2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
TvP:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
I think this is a little inaccurate. Hellbats are still good, this just delays their stupidly good cost efficiency. You can easily afford blueflame somewhere between early game and 15-20 minutes as a bio terran. Just need 1 factory with techlab then switch it with a reactor'd rax once you're done researching and viola, hellbats are good as they prepatch.
its like saying charge now costs 500/500 but its still same as prepatch
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On July 09 2013 08:41 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 08:22 Fig wrote:
Anyone who says lategame TvP will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 100/100! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack. No, it requires time (takes quite a while to research the blue flame) and even more resources (read: building extra factory with techlab for total of 350/275), or APM for floating buildings / swapping addons and limiting your production (you can build only 1 hellbat at a time with the TL and 0 when you are making the TL). This will make both the roach-ling-bane all-in an muta-ling-bling styles much stronger vs T, also dealing with aggressive protosses with the speed prisms will be harder. At the same time any hellbat-marauder attacks will be easier to stop. I think this is enough to give the T a serious kick in the balls, pushing them into "I need to end this before 15m" builds once again.
Your last sentence doesn't make any sense. This change is making Hellbats worse in the early game. It affects the early game much more than it affects anything lategame, since that Infernal Preignitor upgrade becomes more reasonable to research as you gather more resources during the game. Therefore there is no way any Terran should feel pushed into "I need to end this before 15m." That is just bad logic.
I'm sorry that this change will force you to do something slightly different. You will probably need to prepare to add in Hellbats a bit before you actually need them. That way, rather than incur the cost of another entire factory, you can just start using the one you have earlier, instead than leaving it idle or scouting with it during midgame. But being prepared is important in this game. The most prepared player usually wins.
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A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice.
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On July 09 2013 08:58 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 08:41 scypio wrote:On July 09 2013 08:22 Fig wrote:
Anyone who says lategame TvP will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 100/100! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack. No, it requires time (takes quite a while to research the blue flame) and even more resources (read: building extra factory with techlab for total of 350/275), or APM for floating buildings / swapping addons and limiting your production (you can build only 1 hellbat at a time with the TL and 0 when you are making the TL). This will make both the roach-ling-bane all-in an muta-ling-bling styles much stronger vs T, also dealing with aggressive protosses with the speed prisms will be harder. At the same time any hellbat-marauder attacks will be easier to stop. I think this is enough to give the T a serious kick in the balls, pushing them into "I need to end this before 15m" builds once again. Your last sentence doesn't make any sense. This change is making Hellbats worse in the early game. It affects the early game much more than it affects anything lategame, since that Infernal Preignitor upgrade becomes more reasonable to research as you gather more resources during the game. Therefore there is no way any Terran should feel pushed into "I need to end this before 15m." That is just bad logic. I'm sorry that this change will force you to do something slightly different. You will probably need to prepare to add in Hellbats a bit before you actually need them. That way, rather than incur the cost of another entire factory, you can just start using the one you have earlier, instead than leaving it idle or scouting with it during midgame. But being prepared is important in this game. The most prepared player usually wins.
Strong early / early mid-game allows the terran to successfully harass their zerg or protoss opponents and enter the late game in a favorable position (or at least on equal footing).
With strong(-er) hellbats going into the game with a simple plan (harass -> set up for the late game) is pretty tempting. Once the terran player feels he is unlikely to do damage with harassment he will choose to go all-in before the enemy tech or economy fully kicks in.
The whole preparing process takes away the resources at the time the terran player is supposed to do damage. Therefore it may be better to skip that process altogether and go all-in instead.
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United States744 Posts
Photon overcharge doesn't hit banshees if they are cloaked..... unless you have an oracle using the envision ability or an observer or a cannon in range. The whole point isn't that banshees are op now it's that it requires a slightly larger investment in defense to defend the prospect of cloaked banshees, not just banshees in general. The problem with hellbat drops was that they required a considerable investment in defense/resulted in a lot of lost mining time, so the hellbat change makes that less of an issue, and the banshee change is equally threatening now. You still have to have some sort of defense against anything the terran can throw at you, really. You need observers or cannons or an oracle (sometimes a phoenix) to defend against both widow mine drops and banshees (cloaked or uncloaked), and you needed to at least lose some mining time to defend against hellbat drops, and usually a cannon, just now you lose less workers and less mining time to hellbat drops, and while cloaked banshees are a bigger threat, they don't require any more or less investment in defense than hellbat drops now, so the patch has essentially made the threat of terran harrassment more equal and not as damaging. That's the way I see it anyway.
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I feel like this change is great for tvt, but not so much for the other races. Because of hots changes, I have had great difficulty using banshees, and a cheaper cloak research won't change that. Spore crawlers are much easier to access, and photon overcharge means that detection = death. And in general, like others have said, the threat of widow mines means every race is always quick to get detection.
I very much doubt we will see much banshee action. Instead we will see hellbat drops replaced by widow mines and bio drops.
The other trouble I see is that hellbats don't have much use outside of harass and early attacks. They are great versus protoss until storm and colossi come out, at which point they die before they get a shot off due to how slowly they move. And vs zerg, they are taken out too easily by banelings, and again, the slow movement makes them particularly susceptible.
Overall, I agree that blizz did the right thing nerfing hellbats, but I'm not sure blue flame was the right way to do it. Now hellbats have extremely limited use, and we'll probably see them about as often as nukes. And the banshee buff simply isn't enough to make them competitive in any match except tvt.
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Addressing harassment and TvP.
Nobody ever took issue with the massive overlap that Hellbat had with other terran units. Terran already had three very potent worker harass units in the Marine, Hellion and Banshee, in HotS, they added the Widow Mine and Hellbat. I think with time, the Widow Mine was warranted as an early defense against Oracles and Mutalisks, but if I remember correctly, Oracles was never a very strong harassment unit early in the beta, so the Widow Mine was basically a unit to punish risky aggression, by either punishing the opponents mineral line or their makeshift offensives.
Hellbats, well, they overlap a lot with marines in terms of dps. They don't really break the game, but they sort of limit the Protoss in terms of zealots in the early and mid-game. They used to be a staple part of the Protoss army, but now they're really most useful not being part of the army and run around harassing instead. Ghosts used to slaughter zealots pretty well, but they cost their part (Ghost-Marine did perfectly fine against mass chargelots, but required much more Finesse than Hellbats, Hellbats basically took out the finesse part of playing bio). Hellbats doesn't really cost anything for the damage they deal. If Hellbats cost 100/25, Me and probably 90% of Protoss would be perfectly fine with the amount of damage they do in the game.
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Frankly, it is really hard to take your threads seriously when you say things like this:
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination...
Terran dominated (to the tune of 60%+ win rates some months) TvZ for a year and half, while Zerg took the last six months of WOL in much less spectacular fashion. And it didn't have a lot to do with Queens instead of Sunken Colonies, it had it do the with the Infestor becoming the most powerful unit in the game after being buffed combined with a series of nerfs to Terran.
On July 09 2013 09:25 TokO wrote:
Addressing harassment and TvP.
Nobody ever took issue with the massive overlap that Hellbat had with other terran units. Terran already had three very potent worker harass units in the Marine, Hellion and Banshee, in HotS, they added the Widow Mine and Hellbat. I think with time, the Widow Mine was warranted as an early defense against Oracles and Mutalisks, but if I remember correctly, Oracles was never a very strong harassment unit early in the beta, so the Widow Mine was basically a unit to punish risky aggression, by either punishing the opponents mineral line or their makeshift offensives.
Hellbats, well, they overlap a lot with marines in terms of dps. They don't really break the game, but they sort of limit the Protoss in terms of zealots in the early and mid-game. They used to be a staple part of the Protoss army, but now they're really most useful not being part of the army and run around harassing instead. Ghosts used to slaughter zealots pretty well, but they cost their part (Ghost-Marine did perfectly fine against mass chargelots, but required much more Finesse than Hellbats, Hellbats basically took out the finesse part of playing bio). Hellbats doesn't really cost anything for the damage they deal. If Hellbats cost 100/25, Me and probably 90% of Protoss would be perfectly fine with the amount of damage they do in the game.
It is important to remember that a Hellbat costs the same as two Marines. If you make the Hellbat not cost effective for the Terran player compared to the Marines, then they will simply build Marines. This speaks a lot to Marines and how powerful they are. They are the best mineral only unit in the game, and the only one you use as the backbone of you army.
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vs zerg, banshee change isn't scary. banshee already relatively easy to deal with compared to hellbat. problem with hellbat - splash damage. if you aren't looking, it can kill all of your drones. comparatively, the banshee takes 2 shots to kill a single drone. banshee slower than hellbat + turboboost, banshee also easily defeated by queen / spore, not so with hellbat + heal. good change for zerg
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On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
General conclusion. I doubt this patch will help zergs. They were scared by hellbats, now they will be scared by banshees. Probably, it's even a buff for terran in TvZ, because hellbats still can be rather dangerous, but now zerg has to think also about banshees.
The difference is, when Zerg is "scared by hellbats", you had to respond with Roaches, spines, and overlords everywhere. And even then with the speed boost the units get out alive. When you force Roaches and Spines in the early game, they become more or less dead weight as time goes on. Roaches don't transition well due to the cost:supply factor and Spines are still only a supplementary defense, they help defend drops, but unless you've got thousands of minerals banked and unemployed drones they can't do it themselves.
So in the case of a successful defense, Terran doesn't kill drones for the investment, but Medivacs and Hellbats still serve a relevant purpose. Zerg is now stuck with a lot of used up supply (so not only draining minerals into Roaches but also extra Overlords) and very little to show for it.
If Zerg doesn't defend (well), they either GG outright or have to turtle to midgame with Roaches (which can easily be busted), do a economic all-in of trying to rebuild drones+expansions with no defense ("...just go f*ckin' kill him" -Sean "Day9" Plott), or all-in with what Drones, Zerglings, and Roaches you have for a desperation attack (no parenthetical commentary needed).
When a Zerg is "scared by banshees", they defend with Spores (in smaller numbers, maybe 2 in a mineral line and one defending structures in the main), Queens (moar creep, transfusions, all that good stuff), and Hydralisks (viable, though not always ideal mid-late game DPS machine)
I'm not so great with conclusions, always lost points on my English essays, but I think the difference is clear enough.
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United States744 Posts
But roaches aren't actually "dead weight". In HSC VII and MLG Anaheim, Snute and Hyun, respectively, showed most notably how good roaches can be in zvt. This actually goes all the way back to when Soulkey showed how strong roach baneling can be in the early/early-mid game against INnoVation in the WCS Korea Season 1 Finals. To say that making roaches in order to defend against hellbats and then they are useless is simply not correct. Now I do feel that the standard "metagame" may have begun to shift even more towards roach ling baneling most games, and obviously we don't want a "standard" composition every game in every matchup that is predictable and relatively boring to watch, hence the reason for HotS in the first place. But that aside, roaches in zvt are fine and the fact that sometimes a zerg would be forced to make them to defend against hellbats was not necessarily a bad thing at all. I don't play zerg though, so I can't speak much else on the matchup, but the way I see it I don't think this drastically helps or hurts either side, at least on the professional level. I know in every league on every ladder there are tears about balance for each matchup for all kinds of reasons, but let's face it, the professional level is the one that really matters when it comes to balance.
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On July 09 2013 09:05 Inimic wrote:
A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice.
This is a balance discussion and his opinion about the changes in 3 matchups, NOT a balance whining thread
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I may overplayed the "Roaches suck" card, but in terms of efficiency, money invested in roaches could be put towards much more cost-effective options.
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Strelok:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
They did not change the hitpoints on them right ?
Pretty sure they still tank just as good as before, they just don't dish out as much damage as before?
You got me confused here. (I don't play TvP!)
Other than that, great write-up, very insightful.
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On July 09 2013 10:21 Riquiz wrote:Show nested quote +
Strelok:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
They did not change the hitpoints on them right ? Pretty sure they still tank just as good as before, they just don't dish out as much damage as before? You got me confused here. (I don't play TvP!) Other than that, great write-up, very insightful.
I believe hellbat damage went from 5 shots to 9 shots against the zealot. Takes nearly 2x as many hellbats to deal the damage until you can squeeze out the upgrade which means 1.5 less medivac and a lot of research time. It delays terrans late game by.. 3 minutes? As bio anyway.
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United States744 Posts
On July 09 2013 10:17 Kmatt wrote:
I may overplayed the "Roaches suck" card, but in terms of efficiency, money invested in roaches could be put towards much more cost-effective options.
Fair enough, but again I play protoss so my zvt knowledge is limited. I also feel that this won't change that much in TvT. So there won't be games like those innovation played in which he just sent medivac after medivac full of hellbats at his opponent until he just killed everything, but hellbat drops can still be effective. They now 3 shot workers instead of 2, but that just means 2 hellbats 2 shot workers...I think...so it's still a viable opener just not an entire strategy anymore. And with the threat of your opponent going cloak banshee I like that it becomes riskier to play that hellbat-only style because of the lack of anti-air you get with it. So the super boring mass hellbat games should be done with for the most part, and I think that is mission accomplished.
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Exactly what I asserted multiple times in the main thread, yet I was laughed out of it. Glad a pro has put a voice to what every knowledgeable Terran knows. This is a significant nerf to TvP, no way around it.
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Banshee
[TvP] As far as banshee play goes it shouldn't affect much in TvP since the timing is very similar to WM drop timing so they just need to have their standard detection up by that time.
[TvZ] Against zergs, a lot of them are used to just having spores already by that time to deal with the variety of drops that can come so again around the 7:20~ mark, no changes there.
[TvT] Maybe will see more banshee plays coming, there was actually a bit of it being used on the korean server (when euros were the only ones really using a lot of hellbats). But I don't feel the buff was big enough to turn TvT into banshee wars, since only the upgrade got cheaper. Which I guess is a "win" for the spectators who want variety.
Hellbats:
The only fear of "imbalance" I have is in TvP. Non-terran players don't understand how hard it is to deal with endless zealot warp-ins with good upgrades with just pure bio... Delaying the Hellbat bonus damage (yes they do more than just tank, they can actually deal with zealots cost-efficiently and actually kill them instead of just chipping away shields) will make zealot archon storm timings way too strong I think since without Hellbats being able to deal with chargelots, all the Terran can do is either make 5+ bunkers and try to defend until we have ghosts, or rely on insane bio splitting + the protoss player missing a few storms.
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A lot of people are not considering is that when you take a mainstream build from a race the other race has fewer things to consider and thus can read his opponent more effectively.
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Totally digging these posts Strelok. One of the best EU Terrans dropping mad knowledge bombs for everyone to see, quite awesome sir.
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On July 09 2013 10:45 XXXSmOke wrote:
A lot of people are not considering is that when you take a mainstream build from a race the other race has fewer things to consider and thus can read his opponent more effectively.
Most terran builds are pretty transparent anyway (addons/armory/# of production facilities pretty much give everything away) so I don't think it's an issue.
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Regarding TvP. I think after you make the reactor for the starport you can directly go for the techlab, research infernal preigniter and then lift again build the 4 th barrack on the techlab and go for a reactor on the factory.
And still Terrans can avoid the mothership core in the mainfight when they are active with drops. Because on the protoss side you are consantly scared that you get catched off guard while you push so you let the MC at home.
And regarding Banshee i can´t agree with your points aswell because you need either way an oracle or 2 observers (one at natu, one at main) which is causing a massive delay when you want to go early collosus + the costs for the terran are evening out with the costs of the protoss, atleast gaswise.
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The problem with this is that if a terran player is going for banshees, they already have a techlab, so the change isn't that big of a deal. Now with hellbats you need to add a tech lab AND get blue flame. This does not balance out imo
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From the history of SC2 Terran factory usage, very few Terran players will fly a factory to a tech-lab to do the research and then build a reactor.
We all know it's possible, but It just doesn't happen.
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Zergs should still be concerned about hellbat drops. The hellbats can still 2 shot lings (before they get +1 carapace of course), they still deal the same damage to queens and crawlers and the ystill get healed. The only nerf is the speed of which they kill drones which is certainly relevant seeing as they can outrun the hellbats. It'll be harder for the hellbats to break even but it should still be possible I should think, particularly vs complacent zergs.
I think TvT will turn into gas first cloak banshee wars. Which sounds awful. I suppose I'll try and scan and find my opponents starport and just put 2-3 mines along the expected flight paths.
And yea, in TvP it's just a flat nerf. Banshees are useless against viable stargate openers and nexus cannons. I don't see how making them cheaper is supposed to help out.
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Strelok I agree with your points vs late game toss......reminds me of WoL times of late game Protoss massing zealots....that was a nightmare lol
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On July 09 2013 10:55 MooLen wrote:
Regarding TvP. I think after you make the reactor for the starport you can directly go for the techlab, research infernal preigniter and then lift again build the 4 th barrack on the techlab and go for a reactor on the factory.
And still Terrans can avoid the mothership core in the mainfight when they are active with drops. Because on the protoss side you are consantly scared that you get catched off guard while you push so you let the MC at home.
And regarding Banshee i can´t agree with your points aswell because you need either way an oracle or 2 observers (one at natu, one at main) which is causing a massive delay when you want to go early collosus + the costs for the terran are evening out with the costs of the protoss, atleast gaswise.
The problem is, when you switch with the port you are on 3 gas normally and have to build armory + 2/2 + combat shields + 2 medivacs + start marauder production + build your 4th and 5th addons all around that time period. That is over 850 gas, not including the 3rd and 4th medivac. Off 3 gas there really isn't an extra 175 gas left over at that time period to spend on blue flame.
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would love to see a return of hellion banshee coming back to the metagame.
i still think the biggest problem is speedmedivac rather than hellbats in ZvT but a weaker hellbats might be ok too
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I agree with everything. Perhaps a tank buff for PvT would be favorable for Terran (which I don't think Blizzard will consider IMO).
Banshees in TvP right now is the dumbest opening ever.
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something really annoying ive learned as ive been playing sc if other dont realize is that out of all three races which race needs to get the most upgrades ? im pretty sure its terran, we need to get stim cobat shields for bio and now to go bio mech we need to add blue flame ontop of tryin gto get medivacs harass and upgrade? i fail to see why other races dont need to get as many upgardes as us.
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I'd love a tank buff (combined with some other nerf), but I think any buff to the tank risks turning TvT into long drawn out tank viking games.
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I'd like to see them combine the transform upgrade and blueflame upgrade.
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On July 09 2013 06:22 Poo wrote:Yeah I don't think it'll be easy for Terrans to get the upgrade 'just like that' as a bio player. It's a large cost + need a tech lab I'm kinda wondering though if hellbats will be as useless as you're making them out to be. with 135 health, and medivac regeneration - I'd imagine they'd still serve as a good buffer for bio users? The overall damage of the bio ball will be lower, but maybe they'll still be worth investing in vs zealot heavy comp? Plus aoe is always nice even with the dmg decrease.
Well written as always but i agree with this guy  , seems to me you have a weeeee tiny bias (as we all do), And making Nexus cannon shoot ground only is silly (thinks oracles, medivacs , mutas ). but all in all. i agree with your sentiments.
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On July 09 2013 09:05 Inimic wrote:
A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice.
The fact he's a pro actually has huge merit on these boards, the fact it's also a well constructed discussion thread only adds to it.
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On July 09 2013 13:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 09:05 Inimic wrote:
A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice. The fact he's a pro actually has huge merit on these boards, the fact it's also a well constructed discussion thread only adds to it.
It's also not really actually at all a complain thread - he says he thinks the patch is overall a positive and he wants to see how it plays out. It's not even entirely a balance thread, mostly discussing the impacts on the different matchups.
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I really love people who that lategame hellbat is now useless when its exactly the same for the cost of a techlab and a research.
Terrans on 4 base must really really really really need this 150min and 125gas. some something else instead of giving +12 damage to light to hellbats and +5 to hellion.
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On July 09 2013 15:05 Dreadwolf wrote:
I really love people who that lategame hellbat is now useless when its exactly the same for the cost of a techlab and a research.
Terrans on 4 base must really really really really need this 150min and 125gas. some something else instead of giving +12 damage to light to hellbats and +5 to hellion.
Yeah, I also love people that make phoenix to defend drops and then don't get range upgrade when its just an upgrade. Protoss on 4base must realy really really really need this 150min and 150 gas.
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With Toss late game v T being mostly ground the addition of a few cloaked banshees now more accessible because of the cheaper upgrade makes good sense....whilst stalkers try to deal with vikings 3-4 cloaked banshees will deal significant damage...early game however as Strelok (who enjoyed a very good win over Stardust recently!!~~ Congrats) mentioned the Banshee cloak buff is irrelevant v P.
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On July 09 2013 15:25 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 15:05 Dreadwolf wrote:
I really love people who that lategame hellbat is now useless when its exactly the same for the cost of a techlab and a research.
Terrans on 4 base must really really really really need this 150min and 125gas. some something else instead of giving +12 damage to light to hellbats and +5 to hellion. Yeah, I also love people that make phoenix to defend drops and then don't get range upgrade when its just an upgrade. Protoss on 4base must realy really really really need this 150min and 150 gas.
The difference is that you need a fleet beacon, something you don't get unless you're going air.
A tech lab? I mean you can swap it after the research for crying out loud.
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On July 09 2013 15:05 Dreadwolf wrote:
I really love people who that lategame hellbat is now useless when its exactly the same for the cost of a techlab and a research.
Terrans on 4 base must really really really really need this 150min and 125gas. some something else instead of giving +12 damage to light to hellbats and +5 to hellion.
Since there were a thons of responses like that, i will add explanation to that part in main article.
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I don't understand how you could possibly think that its a buff for Terran vs Zerg. Zergs have spores before evolution chamber and cloak banshee were no big problem in WoL for a good Zerg, I doubt a cost change will change that. The only thing that could change is that the current metagame allows for hellion/banshee after CC first like in WoL and due to cost-decrease, still greedy third cc and early double ebays.
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).
TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
In TvT, while I think it shifts the meta game or could shift the metagame, It could also mean that it doesn't change anything. Right now the problem was the initial (first) hellbat drop that either resulted in damage or lost mining time and snowballed into not defending the following drops well. With the hellbat nerf, its less likely to kill much economy, but you will still need to pull workers and the followup drops will be as strong, as 4 hellbats kill economy just as fast as before as they did massive overdamage.
I don't know how it will play out and we'll wait and see, but that would be my main concern.
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On July 09 2013 07:06 Aunvilgod wrote:
I won't believe in mech outside TvT until I see it.
In TvZ it would occasionally happen on Newkirk.
I doubt it will survive this patch tho.
In fact Strelok used to play mech in all match-ups which explains his interest in hellbat balance.
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I feel we have to wait for the rest of the group matches of WCS Korea Premier League Ro16 to see the consequences of the patch. No other terrans come even close in skill.
The big question: Will Inno survive the patch or will he fall behind Flash?
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On July 09 2013 15:45 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I feel we have to wait for the rest of the group matches of WCS Korea Premier League Ro16 to see the consequences of the patch. No other terrans come even close in skill.
The big question: Will Inno survive the patch or will he fall behind Flash?
Like his whole play relies on early hellbat drops... :l
I think he'll still dominate.
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On July 09 2013 15:45 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I feel we have to wait for the rest of the group matches of WCS Korea Premier League Ro16 to see the consequences of the patch. No other terrans come even close in skill.
The big question: Will Inno survive the patch or will he fall behind Flash?
INnoVation didn't really only rely on the hellbat only. He is also a fantastic bio vs mech player etc. Also, as I explained I believe the initial hellbat drop is weaker now, but it will still make you pull workers and lose mining time, while the followup with 4+ hellbats are equally devastating to economy.
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No need to cry. Even if it is a Terran nerf, hellbats were too cost effective and it is a right thing to do. If buffs are needed elsewhere, will be seen in time.
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On July 09 2013 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:
No need to cry. Even if it is a Terran nerf, hellbats were too cost effective and it is a right thing to do. If buffs are needed elsewhere, will be seen in time.
Sadly that's not how things work.
For every nerf 2 out of 3 races are in favor.
For every buff 2 out of 3 races are against.
If a buff is needed it will take stupid amount of time for it to happen.
And then the chances are it will be insufficient or break something else.
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If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed.
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What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss.
If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed.
If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs
On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed.
Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D
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On July 09 2013 09:05 Inimic wrote:
A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice.
Inimic, I'm going to take the particular luxury of reminding you about how things operate here on TL, if only because you make other low-count posters like myself look bad. The only response that you need is below...
On July 09 2013 10:12 Porishan wrote:
This is a balance discussion and his opinion about the changes in 3 matchups, NOT a balance whining thread.
But thankfully TL has a handy thread called TL.net Ten Commandments. You might see it under TL Community every so always. A cursory look through it gives us this gem:
...we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
These are the rules that everybody on this website agrees to as a condition of posting and taking part in this community. If a pro creates a balance whine thread and the admins overseeing the community are fine with it, then we by extension are fine with it. Seniority matters here.
NOW, on to the topic at hand: Hellbats.
I don't have enough skill or player experience (Diamond Protoss / Platinum Terran) to determine whether Hellbats are OP in their new, nerfed state. I will say that I'm personally glad I don't get my worker line wiped in two seconds anymore. My multitasking and awareness isn't enough to overcome the damage the drop posed.
For the implications this has on TvP and TvZ, again, I haven't practiced a mech style and my macro is poor enough that failure can be attributed to it instead of something being OP. Since it's not my area of knowledge I'll refrain from it.
As a player, I can say that I enjoy using Banshees more than Hellbats for harass. Even if the result isn't as damaging, I feel like I've earned every kill with the Banshees. It's also much more interesting to see Banshees in action than Hellbat drops in my spectating experience.
I'm not pro, I'm not even Masters in NA and it's likely I never will be. But I would like to imagine 2 Starport openings that have 2 Vikings and a Banshee w/ Cloak in them in TvP. Snipe the Observer, slip through the Planetary Nexus, snipe Probes. Ah well, a Diamond player can dream.
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Personally I think the nerf that would have balanced play out in a way that didn't change the usage of Hellbats would have been what I call a "restricted splash radius". They would do the same damage in the same direction, but could only effect X number of units per shot per Hellbat. This would be so that when two Hellbats got off a couple shots, your whole mineral line or Zergling force won't be destroyed. I have no idea what number X would be, or how this would actually play out, so to me the nerf that was actually implemented is the only way that I personally can think of that will "fix" the problem of Hellbat drops. I mean other than changing the cargo space of a Hellbat to 8 instead of 4 so it's not even worth it to drop a Hellbat anymore
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On July 09 2013 16:32 NarutO wrote:What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss. If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed. If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed. Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D
Terrans already have a "supply-less" and "free" base defense. They are called auto-turrets and PDDs and they last forever with durable materials.
I never understood why Terrans don't make more Ravens. They are only 2 supply and have such great utility in the late-game once the pace slows down and energy based units start to shine.
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As a zerg I think im more worried about 3 base terran with constant MMMM
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shit change. The downgrade of the game has commenced.
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On July 09 2013 17:19 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 16:32 NarutO wrote:What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss. If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed. If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed. Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D Terrans already have a "supply-less" and "free" base defense. They are called auto-turrets and PDDs and they last forever with durable materials. I never understood why Terrans don't make more Ravens. They are only 2 supply and have such great utility in the late-game once the pace slows down and energy based units start to shine.
Are you serious? How is that supply-less defence? Auto-turrets and PDDs require a 2-supply unit. Might as well put a bunker with 4 marines then. Really... wow, that comment. Not to mention that you will have less-supply that is actually worth anything in a fight. Ravens can be feedbacked and will be useless, and even if you get a HSM off.... against Protoss, really? PDDs can be feedbacked as well and most Protoss don't play Stalker heavy to begin with.
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David Kim is a smart guy, and I knew it.
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On July 09 2013 15:39 NarutO wrote:
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).
TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
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I think the question should not be if you can still build hellbats in lategame TvP, but if you still want to build them.
Currently I feel Hellbats are more of a unit which you carry over from midgame timings instead of a unit you build a lot more of in lategame. That's probably because the upgrade discrepancy of like 0/2 against a 3/3/3 toss becomes apparent and, imo more importantly, although it is more cost efficient, the hellbat is not as supply-efficient as mass ghosts, the lategame zealot counter.
So my prediction would be that we see very few hellbats in TvP from now on, since timings (defensively to defend vs the mentioned 2/2 zealot archon or offensively to pressure a pre maxed out toss army) get nerfed quite heavily and there is a lack of use for hellbats in lategame in general.
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On July 09 2013 18:15 phazeOne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 15:39 NarutO wrote:
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).
TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
. I think the question should not be if you can still build hellbats in lategame TvP, but if you still want to build them. Currently I feel Hellbats are more of a unit which you carry over from midgame timings instead of a unit you build a lot more of in lategame. That's probably because the upgrade discrepancy of like 0/2 against a 3/3/3 toss becomes apparent and, imo more importantly, although it is more cost efficient, the hellbat is not as supply-efficient as mass ghosts, the lategame zealot counter. So my prediction would be that we see very few hellbats in TvP from now on, since timings (defensively to defend vs the mentioned 2/2 zealot archon or offensively to pressure a pre maxed out toss army) get nerfed quite heavily and there is a lack of use for hellbats in lategame in general.
I didn't hit as many lategame TvP lately, and I'm very positive towards mass ghost, but mass amount of ghosts also hold weaknesses. You usually want to nullify shields and energy on everything, besides that their DPS against zealots is great, but its single target DPS. Colossi are also a big problem to ghosts so having less supply in ghosts (not 35+) would allow fora bit tankier army with a few more marauders/hellbats) so you can actually take out colossi more easily. Vikings are already great in that composition but if he really commits to stalker/colossus for example, ghost/viking can suffer hard defeat. I dare to say the hellbat wouldn't help there as much either but I think you get my point.
Personally I feel all-midgame is still very good to get hellbats, the nerf is big, but 8 hellbats still deal enough damage to make it worthwhile having them in front against zealots. Its like the blueflame nerf, people thought now blueflame hellions suck.... and in reality, they didn't.
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On July 09 2013 18:04 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 17:19 Brian333 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:32 NarutO wrote:What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss. If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed. If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed. Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D Terrans already have a "supply-less" and "free" base defense. They are called auto-turrets and PDDs and they last forever with durable materials. I never understood why Terrans don't make more Ravens. They are only 2 supply and have such great utility in the late-game once the pace slows down and energy based units start to shine. Are you serious? How is that supply-less defence? Auto-turrets and PDDs require a 2-supply unit. Might as well put a bunker with 4 marines then. Really... wow, that comment. Not to mention that you will have less-supply that is actually worth anything in a fight. Ravens can be feedbacked and will be useless, and even if you get a HSM off.... against Protoss, really? PDDs can be feedbacked as well and most Protoss don't play Stalker heavy to begin with.
It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes.
Protoss don't play Stalker heavy but they make enough of them to clean up medivacs and vikings in the early / mid game. Protoss players focus fire vikings with stalkers these days. Being able to shield vikings from stalker fire so they last a little longer could be the difference between whether or not you have to remake vikings or get to make more medivacs. If they're feed backing your Raven, that's one feedback that isn't on a medivac or ghost turning them into 2 useless supply.
And really, what do you say of the Thorzain / Naniwa game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3L26X3RP4)? Ravens basically made that work.
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On July 09 2013 18:29 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 18:15 phazeOne wrote:On July 09 2013 15:39 NarutO wrote:
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).
TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
. I think the question should not be if you can still build hellbats in lategame TvP, but if you still want to build them. Currently I feel Hellbats are more of a unit which you carry over from midgame timings instead of a unit you build a lot more of in lategame. That's probably because the upgrade discrepancy of like 0/2 against a 3/3/3 toss becomes apparent and, imo more importantly, although it is more cost efficient, the hellbat is not as supply-efficient as mass ghosts, the lategame zealot counter. So my prediction would be that we see very few hellbats in TvP from now on, since timings (defensively to defend vs the mentioned 2/2 zealot archon or offensively to pressure a pre maxed out toss army) get nerfed quite heavily and there is a lack of use for hellbats in lategame in general. I didn't hit as many lategame TvP lately, and I'm very positive towards mass ghost, but mass amount of ghosts also hold weaknesses. You usually want to nullify shields and energy on everything, besides that their DPS against zealots is great, but its single target DPS. Colossi are also a big problem to ghosts so having less supply in ghosts (not 35+) would allow fora bit tankier army with a few more marauders/hellbats) so you can actually take out colossi more easily. Vikings are already great in that composition but if he really commits to stalker/colossus for example, ghost/viking can suffer hard defeat. I dare to say the hellbat wouldn't help there as much either but I think you get my point. Personally I feel all-midgame is still very good to get hellbats, the nerf is big, but 8 hellbats still deal enough damage to make it worthwhile having them in front against zealots. Its like the blueflame nerf, people thought now blueflame hellions suck.... and in reality, they didn't.
Then there still will be the problem of what you upgrade out of your armory. Vikings with 0 attack in late game against a high amount of colossi sounds quite horrible to me. And if you upgrade those instead of mech armor, woudn't 3/3 Marauders do a better job at tanking than 0/0 hellbats?
Also, the blue flame nerf actually affected the meta game a lot didn't it? Blue flame helion + Medivac was a quite standard harass opener in pretty much every matchup, even in TvP. After the patch, the BFH-play became mainly dedicated to mech-only players, which I claim might also happen after this patch with hellbats.
I mean, there still are some rare occasions in which you see BFH being integrated in TvZ bio timings, but it seems rather gimmicky and relies a lot on the zerg not building roaches.
Edit: @Brian333
It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes.
Not sure if troll...?
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On July 09 2013 19:01 phazeOne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 18:29 NarutO wrote:On July 09 2013 18:15 phazeOne wrote:On July 09 2013 15:39 NarutO wrote:
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).
TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
. I think the question should not be if you can still build hellbats in lategame TvP, but if you still want to build them. Currently I feel Hellbats are more of a unit which you carry over from midgame timings instead of a unit you build a lot more of in lategame. That's probably because the upgrade discrepancy of like 0/2 against a 3/3/3 toss becomes apparent and, imo more importantly, although it is more cost efficient, the hellbat is not as supply-efficient as mass ghosts, the lategame zealot counter. So my prediction would be that we see very few hellbats in TvP from now on, since timings (defensively to defend vs the mentioned 2/2 zealot archon or offensively to pressure a pre maxed out toss army) get nerfed quite heavily and there is a lack of use for hellbats in lategame in general. I didn't hit as many lategame TvP lately, and I'm very positive towards mass ghost, but mass amount of ghosts also hold weaknesses. You usually want to nullify shields and energy on everything, besides that their DPS against zealots is great, but its single target DPS. Colossi are also a big problem to ghosts so having less supply in ghosts (not 35+) would allow fora bit tankier army with a few more marauders/hellbats) so you can actually take out colossi more easily. Vikings are already great in that composition but if he really commits to stalker/colossus for example, ghost/viking can suffer hard defeat. I dare to say the hellbat wouldn't help there as much either but I think you get my point. Personally I feel all-midgame is still very good to get hellbats, the nerf is big, but 8 hellbats still deal enough damage to make it worthwhile having them in front against zealots. Its like the blueflame nerf, people thought now blueflame hellions suck.... and in reality, they didn't. Then there still will be the problem of what you upgrade out of your armory. Vikings with 0 attack in late game against a high amount of colossi sounds quite horrible to me. And if you upgrade those instead of mech armor, woudn't 3/3 Marauders do a better job at tanking than 0/0 hellbats? Also, the blue flame nerf actually affected the meta game a lot didn't it? Blue flame helion + Medivac was a quite standard harass opener in pretty much every matchup, even in TvP. After the patch, the BFH-play became mainly dedicated to mech-only players, which I claim might also happen after this patch with hellbats. I mean, there still are some rare occasions in which you see BFH being integrated in TvZ bio timings, but it seems rather gimmicky and relies a lot on the zerg not building roaches. Edit: @Brian333 Show nested quote +
It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes.
Not sure if troll...?
As I said it affected the meta, but thats because people tend to think a unit is not viable after a nerf. It made a comeback and is still strong, we could also see it in todays proleague match. Blueflame hellions are still scary as hell and I personally would rather face hellbat mech player (not hte drops, just the composition) compared to a hellion mech player.
Viking benefits from armor as well and I agree that they are "horrible" against c olossus when not upgraded, but in the end, if you EMP everything that kind of negates upgrades. I don't want to argue that topic, as I think its too complex and deserves its own topic, but there's more than theory to it. Right now I feel like ghost/viking is the ultimative composition for Terran, but I believe thats because the other new compositions are not completely figured out. For example against tempest, Ravends PDD might actually be worth using.
On July 09 2013 18:56 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 18:04 NarutO wrote:On July 09 2013 17:19 Brian333 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:32 NarutO wrote:What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss. If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed. If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed. Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D Terrans already have a "supply-less" and "free" base defense. They are called auto-turrets and PDDs and they last forever with durable materials. I never understood why Terrans don't make more Ravens. They are only 2 supply and have such great utility in the late-game once the pace slows down and energy based units start to shine. Are you serious? How is that supply-less defence? Auto-turrets and PDDs require a 2-supply unit. Might as well put a bunker with 4 marines then. Really... wow, that comment. Not to mention that you will have less-supply that is actually worth anything in a fight. Ravens can be feedbacked and will be useless, and even if you get a HSM off.... against Protoss, really? PDDs can be feedbacked as well and most Protoss don't play Stalker heavy to begin with. It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes. Protoss don't play Stalker heavy but they make enough of them to clean up medivacs and vikings in the early / mid game. Protoss players focus fire vikings with stalkers these days. Being able to shield vikings from stalker fire so they last a little longer could be the difference between whether or not you have to remake vikings or get to make more medivacs. If they're feed backing your Raven, that's one feedback that isn't on a medivac or ghost turning them into 2 useless supply. And really, what do you say of the Thorzain / Naniwa game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3L26X3RP4)? Ravens basically made that work.
Go to the unit tester, tell me how well autoturrets do against zealot/dt warpin. Or even an archon. Now while we can agree that they don't do super well, its still "efficient" in terms of cost, as energ>minerals, even if they kill one zealot, but the point still stands. Its not supply-less defence, it costs a raven and a raven is expensive in terms of gas, needs a (at worst) third and fourth starport and isn't viable in standard play.
Terran already has a hard time in fights, 2-3 ravens won't change it. One game as example isn't enough as I can name hundrets of TvP where you won't see a raven for the reason that you add supply that is basically useless. Comparing an auto turret to a cannon is stupid, especially the way you did it with the probe...
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On July 09 2013 19:09 NarutO wrote:
Go to the unit tester, tell me how well autoturrets do against zealot/dt warpin. Or even an archon. Now while we can agree that they don't do super well, its still "efficient" in terms of cost, as energ>minerals, even if they kill one zealot, but the point still stands. Its not supply-less defence, it costs a raven and a raven is expensive in terms of gas, needs a (at worst) third and fourth starport and isn't viable in standard play.
Terran already has a hard time in fights, 2-3 ravens won't change it. One game as example isn't enough as I can name hundrets of TvP where you won't see a raven for the reason that you add supply that is basically useless. Comparing an auto turret to a cannon is stupid, especially the way you did it with the probe...
And how well do cannons / spines deal with 3/3 marauders with medivac healing? And, I don't really see how anything you said refutes the point that you cannot call cannons supply-less defense without calling auto-turrets supply less defense.
You can make the claim that auto-turrets are comparatively an expensive form of supply-less defense. But, if you are going to make Ravens because they become a standard unit in the meta-game, then that cost changes into a matter of whether or not you can afford the time cost it takes the energy to regen. Like you said yourself, the new compositions are not yet figured out. Standard could very well be Thorzain's small amount of MMM, a lot of Vikings, a lot of Ghosts, a few Tanks or Nukes for siege, and a lot of Ravens on certain maps where defensive positioning is very hard to break.
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Will Zerg really be scared of Banshees?
With them able to build spore direct from pool, countering cloak banshees seems pretty straight forward.
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If people could micro Raven-Ghost and still keep their cool, I think it could be very potent against thoughtless Protoss play, given the extra buff the missile received with HotS. There is also some room for improvement when it comes to Terran SimCity in the lategame.
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On July 09 2013 19:28 Brian333 wrote:
And how well do cannons / spines deal with 3/3 marauders with medivac healing? And, I don't really see how anything you said refutes the point that you cannot call cannons supply-less defense without calling auto-turrets supply less defense.
You can make the claim that auto-turrets are comparatively an expensive form of supply-less defense. But, if you are going to make Ravens because they become a standard unit in the meta-game, then that cost changes into a matter of whether or not you can afford the time cost it takes the energy to regen. Like you said yourself, the new compositions are not yet figured out. Standard could very well be Thorzain's small amount of MMM, a lot of Vikings, a lot of Ghosts, a few Tanks or Nukes for siege, and a lot of Ravens on certain maps where defensive positioning is very hard to break.
So, you compare a 150mins static defense that easily can be massed in lategame to a unit that costs you 2 supply, you have to keep it at the base you defend AND does less damage AND costs you 100/200 with starport tech?
seems legit...
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I feel like hellbats are gone in TvP. There is really no room for a 150/150 upgrade in the early-midgame, since I'm already gas starved in TvP in the early-midgame. In the lategame I don't want 1-0 hellbats, since I want my supply in 3-3 ghosts and bio.
TvZ: as a terran who never did hellbat drops (they were too imba, so bad practice if you used them), I made hellbats as a part of my 13:00 marine + 4 tank + 6 hellbat 160 supply timing. Now that timing is gone imo. If I want to hit a 13:00 marine + 4 tank + medivac + hellbat timing, then I don't have money for 1) 150 gas for the upgrade, 2) 100 gas for a second factory. OR I need to cut the starport for some time? Really wondering.. I don't like to rely on mines, since there are too many strong timings that exploit them imo.
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On July 09 2013 19:32 Nekovivie wrote:
Will Zerg really be scared of Banshees?
With them able to build spore direct from pool, countering cloak banshees seems pretty straight forward.
And the build time of spores is a joke. Queens have insane range aswell, But we will see, maybe 2 port without cloak can do something. Probably just MMMM with MM drop instead of hellbat drops.
Other than that I agree with strelok. I do not feel that the TvP nerf is much of a problem, it was at least for me always ,by far , my best matchup, I think Protoss needed some Blizz help there.
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no we not agree terran not imba thats ur oppinion, but to be honest hellbats was most terrible in TvT so be happy they nerf it
rly there is to much whine in this thread ... 90% of the "plz nerf hellbats" comments was from TERRANS because tvt was so unplayable ...
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On July 09 2013 19:40 EvilChuck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 19:28 Brian333 wrote:
And how well do cannons / spines deal with 3/3 marauders with medivac healing? And, I don't really see how anything you said refutes the point that you cannot call cannons supply-less defense without calling auto-turrets supply less defense.
You can make the claim that auto-turrets are comparatively an expensive form of supply-less defense. But, if you are going to make Ravens because they become a standard unit in the meta-game, then that cost changes into a matter of whether or not you can afford the time cost it takes the energy to regen. Like you said yourself, the new compositions are not yet figured out. Standard could very well be Thorzain's small amount of MMM, a lot of Vikings, a lot of Ghosts, a few Tanks or Nukes for siege, and a lot of Ravens on certain maps where defensive positioning is very hard to break. So, you compare a 150mins static defense that easily can be massed in lategame to a unit that costs you 2 supply, you have to keep it at the base you defend AND does less damage AND costs you 100/200 with starport tech? seems legit...
Reply with a stupid post that totally missed every point I was making and brought up an angle that I had already addressed?
seems legit...
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First people complain that hellbat is just another bio unit. Now they are complaining its not usable with bio when bliz made it more mech unit.
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Great changes overall but the problem is that Zealots will now counter Hellbats instead of the other way around. It will nerf both bio TvP and mech TvP.
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In terms of the hellbat nerf, i believe that it is a good nerf, but I was hoping they would make the thor more useable, currently I feel like the thor, doesn't really have a spot or use, its anti air mode, is way less effective than HSM, and costs more, in every way.
The normal thor mode is just not as strong now against any of the matchups, in tvp, it was never that strong, and in tvz, with blinding cloud, and also with both Muta and Hydra buffs, meaning either going ling/bane muta or roach hydra, the thor doesn't deal nearly aswell now.
Essentially what I am saying is that Mech is screwed currently. They don't have anywhere near the viability outside of TVT.
Feel like the underlying issues aren't actually being addressed, Mech's effectiveness/efficiency.
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It's cute how you spelled invisible and topic. : D
As a zerg : id rather have to focus on defending one type of thing. Hellbats will probably still be scary. I am not scared of one or two banshees, but I fear that this patch will bring back 2-port banshees from the old days, and I dont want to have to deal with yet another type of allin. Overall I still think the patch is one in the right direction.
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early cloak banshee was always something hard for protoss to defend against in the early game...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:03 Emporium wrote:
In terms of the hellbat nerf, i believe that it is a good nerf, but I was hoping they would make the thor more useable, currently I feel like the thor, doesn't really have a spot or use, its anti air mode, is way less effective than HSM, and costs more, in every way.
The normal thor mode is just not as strong now against any of the matchups, in tvp, it was never that strong, and in tvz, with blinding cloud, and also with both Muta and Hydra buffs, meaning either going ling/bane muta or roach hydra, the thor doesn't deal nearly aswell now.
Essentially what I am saying is that Mech is screwed currently. They don't have anywhere near the viability outside of TVT.
Feel like the underlying issues aren't actually being addressed, Mech's effectiveness/efficiency.
The thing about Thors is that if you make them stronger stats wise, they become pretty ridiculous - they already have insane DPS.
I think some kind of utility upgrade could maybe be cool... Like... being able to transform into static defense or something, idk (that was just something I thought about because of naruto's post, not sure its even remotely a good idea just throwing it out there as an example of what I mean by utility).
I think the ability to switch between splash and single target AA is really fitting as a concept, and would love to see them expand even more on this aspect of terran (I can never have enough of it tbh  ).
One thing I'm wondering about with regards to what naruto posted, is mines --- is it really unreasonable to use them as defense? Feels to me like if you zone with turrets and put a few mines here and there, denying drops or warp prisms shouldnt be that hard.
I know they cost supply, but 1 supply isnt much late game when you already have a lot of orbitals to replace SCVs.
I mean in SC1, there was a brief period where if toss got arbiters they would just free-win vs terran mid-late game by recalling into their base and stasising the ramp. Then terrans got wise and started putting 10 turrets and 20 spidermines in their base. Widow mines arent free, I know, but a warp prism isn't an arbiter and you dont need 20 WMs to shut it down.
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On July 09 2013 22:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 21:03 Emporium wrote:
In terms of the hellbat nerf, i believe that it is a good nerf, but I was hoping they would make the thor more useable, currently I feel like the thor, doesn't really have a spot or use, its anti air mode, is way less effective than HSM, and costs more, in every way.
The normal thor mode is just not as strong now against any of the matchups, in tvp, it was never that strong, and in tvz, with blinding cloud, and also with both Muta and Hydra buffs, meaning either going ling/bane muta or roach hydra, the thor doesn't deal nearly aswell now.
Essentially what I am saying is that Mech is screwed currently. They don't have anywhere near the viability outside of TVT.
Feel like the underlying issues aren't actually being addressed, Mech's effectiveness/efficiency. The thing about Thors is that if you make them stronger stats wise, they become pretty ridiculous - they already have insane DPS. I think some kind of utility upgrade could maybe be cool... Like... being able to transform into static defense or something, idk (that was just something I thought about because of naruto's post, not sure its even remotely a good idea just throwing it out there as an example of what I mean by utility). I think the ability to switch between splash and single target AA is really fitting as a concept, and would love to see them expand even more on this aspect of terran (I can never have enough of it tbh ). One thing I'm wondering about with regards to what naruto posted, is mines --- is it really unreasonable to use them as defense? Feels to me like if you zone with turrets and put a few mines here and there, denying drops or warp prisms shouldnt be that hard. I know they cost supply, but 1 supply isnt much late game when you already have a lot of orbitals to replace SCVs. I mean in SC1, there was a brief period where if toss got arbiters they would just free-win vs terran mid-late game by recalling into their base and stasising the ramp. Then terrans got wise and started putting 10 turrets and 20 spidermines in their base. Widow mines arent free, I know, but a warp prism isn't an arbiter and you dont need 20 WMs to shut it down.
Mines cost 2supply.
Apart from that, I can definitely agree with the concept of those switching modes for Mech being pretty cool. I just think that blizzard won't change anything big until LotV at this point, as the progamers, the community and they themselves are pretty confident about balance at the moment and don't want to disrupt it.
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On July 09 2013 21:00 MockHamill wrote:
Great changes overall but the problem is that Zealots will now counter Hellbats instead of the other way around. It will nerf both bio TvP and mech TvP.
It's not that hard or expensive or delayed to upgrade blue flame if you play mech. But yeah, bio+hellbat may become exotic.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
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I'm happy with the hellbat change; I always imagined that it would be designed so that hellbat's were the slow,beefy and low-damage front-line units while hellions act as the mobile, fragile high-damage units, this is definately a step towards that. is the banshee buff enough to compensate? we'll see, might be nice to see some banshee use again
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
How about decreasing the (gas) cost and making them suicide units?
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I don't mind weaker Widow Mines at 1 supply. Would actually love a better paced widow mine, a nerf in terms of factory production time and cost.
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On July 09 2013 20:03 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 19:40 EvilChuck wrote:On July 09 2013 19:28 Brian333 wrote:
And how well do cannons / spines deal with 3/3 marauders with medivac healing? And, I don't really see how anything you said refutes the point that you cannot call cannons supply-less defense without calling auto-turrets supply less defense.
You can make the claim that auto-turrets are comparatively an expensive form of supply-less defense. But, if you are going to make Ravens because they become a standard unit in the meta-game, then that cost changes into a matter of whether or not you can afford the time cost it takes the energy to regen. Like you said yourself, the new compositions are not yet figured out. Standard could very well be Thorzain's small amount of MMM, a lot of Vikings, a lot of Ghosts, a few Tanks or Nukes for siege, and a lot of Ravens on certain maps where defensive positioning is very hard to break. So, you compare a 150mins static defense that easily can be massed in lategame to a unit that costs you 2 supply, you have to keep it at the base you defend AND does less damage AND costs you 100/200 with starport tech? seems legit... Reply with a stupid post that totally missed every point I was making and brought up an angle that I had already addressed? seems legit...
Not disagreeing, just wanted to note that no static defense, neither spine/spore nor cannons, deals well with late game harass, whether it be from cracklings, from chargelots or from bio drops. Static defense is mainly to stall the opponent and forcing him to micro should he/she want to target your workers.
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
2 supply is pretty genius actually, because it makes bio + WM inferior to zerg late game and thus create an incentive for the terran player to attack/army trade against the zerg player.
Further, since the most frustrating part of widow mines (from the opponents perspective) is when they are used to prevent ling harass/muta harass (as it makes the game less fun to play as zerg), it makes sense to keep it as a high supply unit to make it used for offensive purposes the most.
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Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Someone mentioned the 2-2 archon timing that would be hard to stop now, and I was thinking I'd still go hellbat against that, would I die if I didn't get the upgrade?
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On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Someone mentioned the 2-2 archon timing that would be hard to stop now, and I was thinking I'd still go hellbat against that, would I die if I didn't get the upgrade?
I'm not sure, but I feel like mass hellbats would beat mass zealots due to the splash, but on one-on-one, I feel like they would trade fairly even.
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On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines.
Equal cost isn't relevant since Protoss can have 20 Zealots before you even get 4 Hellbats. Timings and production are what matters against 2-0-2 zeal/archons attacks.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 00:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Honest question, is it just assumed that unupgraded hellbats suck vs lots of zealots, or is it proved now? Granted they won't be as effective as they used to be, but on equal cost I was under the impression that they would still trade way better than two marines. Equal cost isn't relevant since Protoss can have 20 Zealots before you even get 4 Hellbats. Timings and production are what matters against 2-0-2 zeal/archons attacks.
But it does matter what else terran will have at that timing, and so on and so forth. Discussing this stuff in a vacuum isn't particularly helpful, but it's the only way we can have a discussion at all.
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
I urged them over and over during the beta to test the mine at 1 supply and tweak it's stats accordingly. They refused
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We also were numerous to ask for a self-resplinishing minefield in the Beta. And they didn't answered nor even tried it out.
Could have been really cool IMO. With some kind of a creep tumor mechanic or like olds BW vultures but without any other purpose for the unit than the mines. Could have been used in every terran playstyles and offensively as well as defensively.
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24 Posts
I think the banshee buff will be completely useless and go largely unnoticed while the hellbat nerf will cause a lot of suffering.
Z has spores after SP now, protoss have stargate openers + msc that totally shut down cloakshees and T almost always gets a >>6m engy bay anyway.
I think hellbat drops needed a nerf but I'm sensing a lot of increased frustration @ TvP in general. Protoss gets to do too much for free now with MSC.
I would have preferred making speed on medivacs either cost energy or require a research for usage. Speedvacs were introduced to keep drops viable mid-lategame, it's dumb that they start out with it IMO.
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iaguz is most spot on... starting to feel alot like WoL. sad times to be a terran ^^
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On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed...
there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that:
mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units.
so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding.
this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good.
what do people think?
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Good post by Strelok, those are my thoughts exactly. Not sure if it's necessary good for TvT, it'll mean longer games which isn't always so entertaining particularly on smaller maps.
TvP is getting hit hard, won't be suprised to see most Terrans revert back to the 14 minute SCV all in train, cos Protoss have a even bigger advantage now than they had previously. Win rates will start to lean towards Protoss until 60-40, before Blizzard realises they broke the matchup and buff ghosts.
TvZ - yes slightly buff, although gimicky hellbat marauder all ins will be much harder to pull off. Hellion banshee has always been the most solid 3CC opening for Terran, expect to see Kespa guys adopting this. There are some potential shenanigans that can be pulled off going widow mine banshee.
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On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think?
I think 1 supply mines are a nightmare unless they change the underlying mechanics of how they work. Let me attack them when they become visible before they go off. Give them a limited number of charges. Do ANYTHING to keep Terrans from randomly placing low-cost, invisible, self-refreshing explosive devices all over the map.
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You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz.
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On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think?
I love the idea, but the issue here is that Blizzard doesn't want to slow down the game by adding lots of defensive units. In fact, they want to do the opposite. They've openly said that they believe that Siege Tanks and the play they promote is boring (yet they added the Swarm Host), and prefer to see Widow Mines being used offensively to Siege Tanks.
I think it is time for Blizzard to get a new design team. The community seems to be at odds with the direction of the design team.
On July 10 2013 04:19 Lock0n wrote:
TvP is getting hit hard, won't be suprised to see most Terrans revert back to the 14 minute SCV all in train, cos Protoss have a even bigger advantage now than they had previously.
Wait what? Where is this advantage Protoss has? It certainly isn't reflected in results or winrates... http://aligulac.com/reports/
Certainly Terrans probably find TvZ easier, and that is reflected in the winrates too, but that doesn't mean Terran isn't winning more than Protoss.
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These changes are ridiculous.
Cheaper cloak banshee will only affect TvT, because Zerg and Protoss makes early detection anyway for widow mines.
The detection is also very cheap and easy to come by, 1 spore/cannon per base or oracle/observer + MsCore Overcharge to defend. There is a reason why banshees(especially /w cloak) are rarely used in HoTs at high level play in TvP and TvZ.
What these changes do, is make the use of hellbats in real army situations more difficult.
They will be useless before their upgrade and if you are playing bio, you will have to spend extra resources/time on having a factory with a tech lab for 3minutes,making 1 hellbat per cycle, which in the end means it's not a viable option for bio.If you are using mines as well then you will be stuck with a factory and a tech lab for a very long time.
The simple answer to hellbat drop is to remove the BIO tag, so that medivacs can't heal them anymore,thus reducing the drop potency and allowing you to defend the drops with a few units since they won't be able to heal up constantly.
That is were the real issue lies, not rendering the hellbat useless until 3+ bases.
What will happen now we are swapping hellbat drops to fast cloak banshees for TvT only, while removing the hellbat from bio in the other matchups.
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On July 10 2013 05:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 03:57 Emporium wrote:On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... there is a easy response to this, Me and HtoMario were talking about this on skype, we decided that: mines should be 1 supply, not 2, but also shud be less effective than they are now, AND should be used as defensive units. so instead of 75 25 make them 50 25. 1 supply, but make there damage radius and actual damage less. like 85 inital 25 surrounding. this doeesn't fuck up the harass, as if they are 1 supply, then you can have more in medivacs. the damage will be less individually, but still the aoe is good. what do people think? I think 1 supply mines are a nightmare unless they change the underlying mechanics of how they work. Let me attack them when they become visible before they go off. Give them a limited number of charges. Do ANYTHING to keep Terrans from randomly placing low-cost, invisible, self-refreshing explosive devices all over the map.
i think you are looking at it, as if they have the effects they do now. if their strength is reduced radically, so that it isn't going to upright kill anything, unles you aren't map aware.
Every race already has overseers/obs/scans with their army, this isn't going to change if you reduce their cost/power, it just means that in tvz and tvp, they can be utilised in a more clever way, than just run in burrow, stim away let them kill everything, marine split, to mop up the rest. or in tvp, where defensively they are used in the early/midgame, but lategame, they are just not used at all(currently because of the hellbat being stronger more efficient in terms of pop.) this will invite more mech play aswell, as you would have a tier 1 mech unit, that isn't ridiculously expensive, but can be used defensively at the start for mech, but is also mobile, enough to be used aggressively aswell.
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Whilst I am all for making early hellbat drop play redundant in TvT I feel very sad about this change for the future of Terran in the other matchups. Recently I've been seeing a lot of new TvP and TvZ builds that revolve around hellbat harrass and biobat timings. I felt like this added a fresh dynamic to the Terran matchups that finally forced the other races to actually have to scout what is happening, Rather than just scout to make sure they aren't against some kind of bizarre play. It was finally starting to feel like the evolution of a new game, new possibilities, new things being figured out, a viable unit to deal with mass zealots. Now this, I may be a cynic but I really feel like this change is going to make Terran take a step back.
I really don't see why they couldn't just introduce an upgrade to allow medivacs to heal hellbats. I feel pretty confident that most Terran players > masters would feel like the problem isn't the fact they kill so easily but rather the fact that they get healed to full in between stutter steps (especially frustrating when the only units during early drops are unstimmed mm and hellions.) I think the funniest part is that post patch, if they hit early, they will probably still wreck mineral lines with relative ease when there are double drops. It seems so simple, yet I can only assume I'm an idiot that is missing something crucial..
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On July 10 2013 18:55 Beatmania wrote:
Whilst I am all for making early hellbat drop play redundant in TvT I feel very sad about this change for the future of Terran in the other matchups. Recently I've been seeing a lot of new TvP and TvZ builds that revolve around hellbat harrass and biobat timings. I felt like this added a fresh dynamic to the Terran matchups that finally forced the other races to actually have to scout what is happening, Rather than just scout to make sure they aren't against some kind of bizarre play. It was finally starting to feel like the evolution of a new game, new possibilities, new things being figured out, a viable unit to deal with mass zealots. Now this, I may be a cynic but I really feel like this change is going to make Terran take a step back.
I really don't see why they couldn't just introduce an upgrade to allow medivacs to heal hellbats. I feel pretty confident that most Terran players > masters would feel like the problem isn't the fact they kill so easily but rather the fact that they get healed to full in between stutter steps (especially frustrating when the only units during early drops are unstimmed mm and hellions.) I think the funniest part is that post patch, if they hit early, they will probably still wreck mineral lines with relative ease when there are double drops. It seems so simple, yet I can only assume I'm an idiot that is missing something crucial..
They could not make an upgrade to make hellbat healable, or pure mech simply because that still make them imba esp in tvt.
135 hp was so tanky that let them to destroy enough (200 mineral for 2 hellbats).
Edit: so I think dmg nerf was neccessary change but maybe it was too much?
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And as many of us already know that buffing banshee in this way would'nt help in TvZ / TvP. I thought banshee should be scary like w3 but waht happend to this woman
I hope one static defence wouldn't shut down banshee that hard :0
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On July 10 2013 05:56 9-BiT wrote:
You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz.
Mech is unviable in any matchup, not just TvZ. I have yet to see a meching player survive any sort of early game gateway timing and here are some statistics I can give you to show that the Siege Tank in particular is underpowered
Siege Tank in Brood War. Did 70 Explosive damage or 70 to Large, 52.5 to Medium or 35 to Small.
Siege Tank in SC2 does 35 damage or 50 vs Armored units.
Hydralisks in BW and SC2 have 80 HP. It takes 2 hits to kill a Hydralisk in Brood War and 3 hits to kill one in SC2. Roaches likewise take the same amount of hits to kill. This seriously ups the viability of Roach Hydra massively.
Ultralisks in SC2 not only have 100 more HP (which makes them OP as fuck) but also take less damage from the Siege Tank. An Ultralisk in Brood War took six siege tank shells to kill. An Ultralisk in StarCraft II takes ten siege tank shells to kill. This assumes equal upgrades and not the 5-3 that Ultralisk players usually go for.
Anybody who has ever tried to fight Ultralisks with a late game Mech or MMMM comp knows it's like trying to fight a fucking mountain. Not even twenty Marauders can burn down Ultralisks quickly enough to not get closed down and slaughtered. The amount of micro required to even trade equally let alone efficiently against a flurry of 11+ Ultralisks with ling reinforcements roaring straight at you is such that only a godlike player like Flash or Innovation can pull it off. Even if you had made several Banshees, you'd likely not get the Ship Weapons upgrade because you need to get Vehicle Weapons and Vehicle Plating to bolster up your Mech army and you'd watch six ships in the air tickling something that bulldozes your base.
Immortals have 200 Life and 100 Shields, However, their Hardened Shields ability mean they take up to 10 damage from a higher hitting ability. This means that an Immortal takes FOURTEEN Siege Tank shells to kill.
Compare that to the Archon which had 360 effective HP (10 Life and 350 Shields.) In Brood War they took six shells to kill. In StarCraft II they take ELEVEN to kill. They are the second tankiest unit against the Siege Tank, second only to the Immortal.
Then there's the Colossus which has 200 Life and 150 Shields, taking seven shells to kill. Compare this to the Reaver which only took three and due to its much slower speed pretty much had to be drop microed.
And what about the Stalker and Dragoon? Stalkers have 20 less effective HP with 20 less Life than a Dragoon yet they take four hits to kill unlike the Dragoon's three. Why is this? Siege Tank damage got over-nerfed. Worse, Dragoons had borderline-retarded AI pathing and Stalkers not only have decent AI but can also Blink, instantly entering the Dead Zone of Siege Tanks.
It's much like a Rogue vs a Hunter pre-Wrath.
I think the best solution to solve the issues of Mech is to buff the Siege Tank so that the damage is:
35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive.)
Why? Marauders and Roaches would still get three-shotted while Stalkers would now get three-shotted too. The damage bonus against Massive is so that the Archon and Ultralisk no longer become the Terran soft-counter. The only thing that the SC2 Siege Tank has going for itself is that it attacks a little bit faster and doesn't have overkill. Otherwise it's a turd that is actually more expensive than it was in Brood War.
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On July 10 2013 21:34 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:56 9-BiT wrote:
You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz. Mech is unviable in any matchup, not just TvZ. I have yet to see a meching player survive any sort of early game gateway timing and here are some statistics I can give you to show that the Siege Tank in particular is underpowered Siege Tank in Brood War. Did 70 Explosive damage or 70 to Large, 52.5 to Medium or 35 to Small. Siege Tank in SC2 does 35 damage or 50 vs Armored units. Hydralisks in BW and SC2 have 80 HP. It takes 2 hits to kill a Hydralisk in Brood War and 3 hits to kill one in SC2. Roaches likewise take the same amount of hits to kill. This seriously ups the viability of Roach Hydra massively. Ultralisks in SC2 not only have 100 more HP (which makes them OP as fuck) but also take less damage from the Siege Tank. An Ultralisk in Brood War took six siege tank shells to kill. An Ultralisk in StarCraft II takes ten siege tank shells to kill. This assumes equal upgrades and not the 5-3 that Ultralisk players usually go for. Anybody who has ever tried to fight Ultralisks with a late game Mech or MMMM comp knows it's like trying to fight a fucking mountain. Not even twenty Marauders can burn down Ultralisks quickly enough to not get closed down and slaughtered. The amount of micro required to even trade equally let alone efficiently against a flurry of 11+ Ultralisks with ling reinforcements roaring straight at you is such that only a godlike player like Flash or Innovation can pull it off. Even if you had made several Banshees, you'd likely not get the Ship Weapons upgrade because you need to get Vehicle Weapons and Vehicle Plating to bolster up your Mech army and you'd watch six ships in the air tickling something that bulldozes your base. Immortals have 200 Life and 100 Shields, However, their Hardened Shields ability mean they take up to 10 damage from a higher hitting ability. This means that an Immortal takes FOURTEEN Siege Tank shells to kill. Then there's the Colossus which has 200 Life and 150 Shields, taking seven shells to kill. Compare this to the Reaver which only took three and due to its much slower speed pretty much had to be drop microed. Compare that to the Archon which had 360 effective HP (10 Life and 350 Shields.) In Brood War they took six shells to kill. In StarCraft II they take ELEVEN to kill. They are the second tankiest unit against the Siege Tank, second only to the Immortal. And what about the Stalker and Dragoon? Stalkers have 20 less effective HP with 20 less Life than a Dragoon yet they take four hits to kill unlike the Dragoon's three. Why is this? Siege Tank damage got over-nerfed. Worse, Dragoons had borderline-retarded AI pathing and Stalkers not only have decent AI but can also Blink, instantly entering the Dead Zone of Siege Tanks. It's much like a Rogue vs a Hunter pre-Wrath.
you cant compare 1 supply 75/25 cost hydras with SC2 hydras. per supply and cost you had a lot more hydras than now so no 1:1 comparison.
same goes for ultralisks. per supply they have a lot less hp than in BW (and since you are pretty much always maxed when going ultras supply matters, not only cost).
i am all for a tank buff that helps mech in TvP. just give them +15 or so to shields. wouldnt mess up TvT and TvZ. which probably would need to be an upgrade to not make 1 1 1 with better ravens and free siege mode and cheaper cloak AND +15 to shields OP.
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On July 10 2013 04:19 Lock0n wrote:
TvP is getting hit hard, won't be suprised to see most Terrans revert back to the 14 minute SCV all in train, cos Protoss have a even bigger advantage now than they had previously. Win rates will start to lean towards Protoss until 60-40, before Blizzard realises they broke the matchup and buff ghosts.
It'll suck but I doubt things will get that bad.
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On July 10 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 21:34 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2013 05:56 9-BiT wrote:
You guys are forgetting bio mine needs to be able to fight any reasonable army because mech is unviable in tvz. Mech is unviable in any matchup, not just TvZ. I have yet to see a meching player survive any sort of early game gateway timing and here are some statistics I can give you to show that the Siege Tank in particular is underpowered Siege Tank in Brood War. Did 70 Explosive damage or 70 to Large, 52.5 to Medium or 35 to Small. Siege Tank in SC2 does 35 damage or 50 vs Armored units. Hydralisks in BW and SC2 have 80 HP. It takes 2 hits to kill a Hydralisk in Brood War and 3 hits to kill one in SC2. Roaches likewise take the same amount of hits to kill. This seriously ups the viability of Roach Hydra massively. Ultralisks in SC2 not only have 100 more HP (which makes them OP as fuck) but also take less damage from the Siege Tank. An Ultralisk in Brood War took six siege tank shells to kill. An Ultralisk in StarCraft II takes ten siege tank shells to kill. This assumes equal upgrades and not the 5-3 that Ultralisk players usually go for. Anybody who has ever tried to fight Ultralisks with a late game Mech or MMMM comp knows it's like trying to fight a fucking mountain. Not even twenty Marauders can burn down Ultralisks quickly enough to not get closed down and slaughtered. The amount of micro required to even trade equally let alone efficiently against a flurry of 11+ Ultralisks with ling reinforcements roaring straight at you is such that only a godlike player like Flash or Innovation can pull it off. Even if you had made several Banshees, you'd likely not get the Ship Weapons upgrade because you need to get Vehicle Weapons and Vehicle Plating to bolster up your Mech army and you'd watch six ships in the air tickling something that bulldozes your base. Immortals have 200 Life and 100 Shields, However, their Hardened Shields ability mean they take up to 10 damage from a higher hitting ability. This means that an Immortal takes FOURTEEN Siege Tank shells to kill. Then there's the Colossus which has 200 Life and 150 Shields, taking seven shells to kill. Compare this to the Reaver which only took three and due to its much slower speed pretty much had to be drop microed. Compare that to the Archon which had 360 effective HP (10 Life and 350 Shields.) In Brood War they took six shells to kill. In StarCraft II they take ELEVEN to kill. They are the second tankiest unit against the Siege Tank, second only to the Immortal. And what about the Stalker and Dragoon? Stalkers have 20 less effective HP with 20 less Life than a Dragoon yet they take four hits to kill unlike the Dragoon's three. Why is this? Siege Tank damage got over-nerfed. Worse, Dragoons had borderline-retarded AI pathing and Stalkers not only have decent AI but can also Blink, instantly entering the Dead Zone of Siege Tanks. It's much like a Rogue vs a Hunter pre-Wrath. you cant compare 1 supply 75/25 cost hydras with SC2 hydras. per supply and cost you had a lot more hydras than now so no 1:1 comparison. same goes for ultralisks. per supply they have a lot less hp than in BW (and since you are pretty much always maxed when going ultras supply matters, not only cost). i am all for a tank buff that helps mech in TvP. just give them +15 or so to shields. wouldnt mess up TvT and TvZ. which probably would need to be an upgrade to not make 1 1 1 with better ravens and free siege mode and cheaper cloak AND +15 to shields OP.
I would honestly be for an across-the-board buff to tanks, they're so underwhelming in SC2 and they were like THE defining unit of BW, at least for me.
I wouldn't have a problem with 150/100/2 siege tanks that did 70 damage vs armored, but I guarantee that other units would have to be nerfed to make that happen. There are enough tools available to the other races that Tanks themselves wouldn't be that bad, but the marines and marauders right now are too beefy, Terran would be unstoppable.
In BW, Siege Tanks were like the only hands-down GOOD unit Terran had. They were critical in all 3 MU, Terran just could not function without them.
In SC2, that unit is the Marine.
Personally, I think the Marine is boring as fuck and would kill to have oldskool siege tanks back.
Though... I've been on this campaign for years, and I seem to be the only one.
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On July 10 2013 00:52 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... I urged them over and over during the beta to test the mine at 1 supply and tweak it's stats accordingly. They refused
Having already seen the mass mines and PF non-sense that QXC was pulling a while ago, Blizzard made the right call. The last thing we need is 100 seperate mines running around supporting 40 supply in BC.
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On July 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 00:52 avilo wrote:On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... I urged them over and over during the beta to test the mine at 1 supply and tweak it's stats accordingly. They refused Having already seen the mass mines and PF non-sense that QXC was pulling a while ago, Blizzard made the right call. The last thing we need is 100 seperate mines running around supporting 40 supply in BC.
it's hilarious at least.
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On July 10 2013 23:27 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On July 10 2013 00:52 avilo wrote:On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason.
Well..
They should be 1 supply.
Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... I urged them over and over during the beta to test the mine at 1 supply and tweak it's stats accordingly. They refused Having already seen the mass mines and PF non-sense that QXC was pulling a while ago, Blizzard made the right call. The last thing we need is 100 seperate mines running around supporting 40 supply in BC. it's hilarious at least.
I don't want to think of a world where terran could build 100 widow mines(even balanced at one suppy) and still have 100 more supply to fuck around with.
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EPT
