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Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson  e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
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Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
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Hellbats are a frustrating problem and solution.
They're completely necessary in TvP. They're completely unnecessary in TvT early game TvT. They're either too strong or too weak in TvZ.
Blizzard needs to address why they're necessary not just this awkward and ridiculous solution.
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On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote:
Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later.
Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
I think something like the spore vs muta buff could be a solition for TvT (buff terran defense against hellbat drops somehow instead of nerfing the hellbats right away), so the other matchups could stay untouched pretty much, although i don´t like the way of balancing certain units only vs one race in particular it might be viable here...
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I agree terran should receive a small buff in response. Hellbat drops are hardly used in TvZ and TvP though and many top terrans even state that it's not even good play which I kind of agree with if you're playing the regular bio styles. Hellbats are quite solid lategame TvP though, the range is a pretty moot point given they'll be fighting zealots mostly.
The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it. Just rolling in the damage with blueflame will probably happen, hellbats down to 21 or 22 damage will still keep drops viable in TvP/TvZ since it's all about 2 shotting workers anyway and after blueflame they could have normal stats. In return slightly reducing blueflame and transformation servos costs to not hurt mech overall should be fine. Banshee buff or even thor buff would also be fine I think.
It will probably affect TvT mostly and terrans might not add in hellbats anymore in lategame TvP because it would be too much of a hassle. Some hellbat timings in TvZ might also be gone.
Overall i'd love to see the early hellbat drops be a bit rarer, they are just boring and feel so silly that a 300/100 total cost of dropship + 2 hellbats often still does damage against turret and marines. I'd also like to see blueflame hellions and transformation actually be used, it seems a bit silly that a transformation is rarely used just because it's more effective to straight up make hellbats. I seriously can't remember ever seeing hellbats transform in pro games (maybe some of yours but haven't seen them).
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United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote:
Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat/tank has made mech much more viable, I don't know how you can pretend that hellbats don't gel well with mech.... Additionally, TvT was fairly volatile with hellbat drops but now things have settled down rather nicely as players are starting to get a feel for defending hellbat drops and doing earlier attacks (Mvp vs. Innovation, Innovation does an early marine/hellion elevator to completely destroy Mvp's hellbat drop build).
That being said, there's really no reason to nerf hellbats. They have done glorious things to TvT and mech in general. I personally love seeing the return of full mech in TvT and I think games are starting to resemble BW again, which is exciting. In TvZ and TvP, it's rather balanced too, as long as zerg and protoss are on top of their scouting and have ample defenses ready. In the lategame, hellbats provide a much-needed mineral sink for mech and are super important even then. There's just too many reasons why hellbats should NOT be nerfed.
If you're having trouble with hellbat drops in TvT, I suggest you do a different build, because there are plenty that exist that can deal with it. Also, I still believe that bio CAN be used in TvT, but it's a heavily modified bio that's not as aggressive or attacking-oriented as it was in WoL.
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Hellbats in a mech army composition are great because they make mech in TvP pretty viable. Also, there are new bio unit compositions with hellbats which is also interesting & refreshing.
Hellbats as very early drops are just frustrating to deal with and makes TvT just stupid to watch. I just think early hellbat drops should be delayed heavily, but I really like the role of the hellbat in the terran main army.
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Strelok, I would love to see Mech (more) viable in TvP! But you have to acknowledge that Hellbat drops might be problematic.
So why not simply move the +12 vs light damage to the Blue Flame Upgrade as proposed by Blizzard and instead of buffing Banshee cloak beyond absurdity (as Banshees will naturally return with Hellbats weaker in the early game) make the Transform Hellbat / Hellion more accessible. By either make it a free ability or a cheap research like Marauder slow.
This change would introduce much more dynamic gameplay with pros using Transform, but also would reduce the potency of the drops in the early / midgame.
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The thing about hellbat drops is they're timing critical in the TvT matchup, at 8 min they come too early for what the terran can have to defend. The solution should be that the hellbat isn't made with the addition of armory, but simply that transformation servos have to researched, much like stim, from the barracks techlab (150-180 second research?, factory requirement however).
Also, hellions will always need to be transformed into hellbats and don't spawn as such from the factory.
Hellbats late game are fine and not broken. Tank marauder isn't worse than hellbat marauder. Mech vs Bio always comes down to either the bio player atacking where the mech player isn't or matching the mech player for tanks in straight up battles.
* a research would also allow hellbat research to be cancelled by an earlier timing attack.
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As a high diamond random player, I don't thick my opinion is that conclusive on this matter.
I really love hellbats, they make tvp less difficult (no more warp 20 zealots into lol @ your army), they make early game tvt unforgiving (which is a good thing for me, I love zvz ling/baneling wars) and open up some nice timings in tvz, while being a viable opening.
I really hope Blizzard will think twice before nerfing, because IMO Sc2 has never been this balanced.
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In general I agree with Strelok, however:
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good.
There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
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would love a slightly nerfed damage against light units in return for blueflame upgrade makes them deal slightly more damage than now and also transformation being more accessible (lower time needed to research)
personally I think them counter other mineral units way too hard at 0-0 upgrades even against 3-3 lings/zealots
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I would love to see Blizzard buff siege tank units if they're gonna nerf hellbat
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
Strelok is right, reducing the hellbat would ultimately lead to a snow ball effect in mech play. Reducing it's strength in the early - mid game allowing for a much harder late game. It has the potential to make it a lot harder for mech players because even if you don't drop them they are needed for early - mid defense.
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Hellbats need to be nerfed and Tanks buffed, it's the most obvious thing ever. For TvZ, Banshees might be the solution if they get some cost decrease.
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I've personally just started to all-in TvT anymore because I refuse to get into a hellbat drop war game. It isn't fun to play and it certainly isn't fun to watch. TvT is starting to go the way early HOTS ZvZ was with there only being one viable strategy. The issue lies in the Hellbat not necessarily being "op" in direct engagements on the battlefield simply by being a worker killing machine. However I would like to see their base damage reduced and given more damage in bonus to light. I find it very difficult to engage hellbats even with Marauders because their base damage, combined with splash, is so high.
Personally I would have fixed this at the start of HOTS by introducing a worker armor type and removing light from all workers. That way you can tweak how good you want a unit to be at killing light units and how good you want it to kill workers. This is a perfect example where the +worker damage would need to be nerfed but the +light shouldn't be touched. Same thing happened to blue flame hellions in WoL.
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I dont always mech in TvP, but when i do i get steamrolled by 3 base Protoss Stalker/colossi/zealot/templar/immortal Deathball on superior upgrades, because i can not harass enough, because i dont make hellbatdrops.
"hellbat so stronk in late TvP with bioarmy" - Yeah like upgraded chargelots.
Leave the balance to Blizzard and live with it. Your opinion won´t change anything. Blizzard will change balance for 2 reaasons:
1. Ladderwins get significantly out of balance towords one race
2. Tournaments will get boring
3. Not your opinion.
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When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker.
With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. That's why I think :
And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
is irrelevant.
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I like the opinion, that you need to change something in TvT to make other openers viable, but that doesn't affect balance in general.
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EPT
