EPTWith them able to build spore direct from pool, countering cloak banshees seems pretty straight forward.
Opinion on new hellbat nerf patch - Page 6
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
With them able to build spore direct from pool, countering cloak banshees seems pretty straight forward. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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EvilChuck
Germany71 Posts
On July 09 2013 19:28 Brian333 wrote: And how well do cannons / spines deal with 3/3 marauders with medivac healing? And, I don't really see how anything you said refutes the point that you cannot call cannons supply-less defense without calling auto-turrets supply less defense. You can make the claim that auto-turrets are comparatively an expensive form of supply-less defense. But, if you are going to make Ravens because they become a standard unit in the meta-game, then that cost changes into a matter of whether or not you can afford the time cost it takes the energy to regen. Like you said yourself, the new compositions are not yet figured out. Standard could very well be Thorzain's small amount of MMM, a lot of Vikings, a lot of Ghosts, a few Tanks or Nukes for siege, and a lot of Ravens on certain maps where defensive positioning is very hard to break. So, you compare a 150mins static defense that easily can be massed in lategame to a unit that costs you 2 supply, you have to keep it at the base you defend AND does less damage AND costs you 100/200 with starport tech? seems legit... | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
TvZ: as a terran who never did hellbat drops (they were too imba, so bad practice if you used them), I made hellbats as a part of my 13:00 marine + 4 tank + 6 hellbat 160 supply timing. Now that timing is gone imo. If I want to hit a 13:00 marine + 4 tank + medivac + hellbat timing, then I don't have money for 1) 150 gas for the upgrade, 2) 100 gas for a second factory. OR I need to cut the starport for some time? Really wondering.. I don't like to rely on mines, since there are too many strong timings that exploit them imo. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On July 09 2013 19:32 Nekovivie wrote: Will Zerg really be scared of Banshees? With them able to build spore direct from pool, countering cloak banshees seems pretty straight forward. And the build time of spores is a joke. Queens have insane range aswell, But we will see, maybe 2 port without cloak can do something. Probably just MMMM with MM drop instead of hellbat drops. Other than that I agree with strelok. I do not feel that the TvP nerf is much of a problem, it was at least for me always ,by far , my best matchup, I think Protoss needed some Blizz help there. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
 thats ur oppinion, but to be honest hellbats was most terrible in TvT so be happy they nerf itrly there is to much whine in this thread ... 90% of the "plz nerf hellbats" comments was from TERRANS because tvt was so unplayable ... | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
On July 09 2013 19:40 EvilChuck wrote: So, you compare a 150mins static defense that easily can be massed in lategame to a unit that costs you 2 supply, you have to keep it at the base you defend AND does less damage AND costs you 100/200 with starport tech? seems legit... Reply with a stupid post that totally missed every point I was making and brought up an angle that I had already addressed? seems legit... | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Emporium
England162 Posts
The normal thor mode is just not as strong now against any of the matchups, in tvp, it was never that strong, and in tvz, with blinding cloud, and also with both Muta and Hydra buffs, meaning either going ling/bane muta or roach hydra, the thor doesn't deal nearly aswell now. Essentially what I am saying is that Mech is screwed currently. They don't have anywhere near the viability outside of TVT. Feel like the underlying issues aren't actually being addressed, Mech's effectiveness/efficiency. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
As a zerg : id rather have to focus on defending one type of thing. Hellbats will probably still be scary. I am not scared of one or two banshees, but I fear that this patch will bring back 2-port banshees from the old days, and I dont want to have to deal with yet another type of allin. Overall I still think the patch is one in the right direction. | ||
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TXRaunchy
United States131 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:03 Emporium wrote: In terms of the hellbat nerf, i believe that it is a good nerf, but I was hoping they would make the thor more useable, currently I feel like the thor, doesn't really have a spot or use, its anti air mode, is way less effective than HSM, and costs more, in every way. The normal thor mode is just not as strong now against any of the matchups, in tvp, it was never that strong, and in tvz, with blinding cloud, and also with both Muta and Hydra buffs, meaning either going ling/bane muta or roach hydra, the thor doesn't deal nearly aswell now. Essentially what I am saying is that Mech is screwed currently. They don't have anywhere near the viability outside of TVT. Feel like the underlying issues aren't actually being addressed, Mech's effectiveness/efficiency. The thing about Thors is that if you make them stronger stats wise, they become pretty ridiculous - they already have insane DPS. I think some kind of utility upgrade could maybe be cool... Like... being able to transform into static defense or something, idk (that was just something I thought about because of naruto's post, not sure its even remotely a good idea just throwing it out there as an example of what I mean by utility). I think the ability to switch between splash and single target AA is really fitting as a concept, and would love to see them expand even more on this aspect of terran (I can never have enough of it tbh  ).One thing I'm wondering about with regards to what naruto posted, is mines --- is it really unreasonable to use them as defense? Feels to me like if you zone with turrets and put a few mines here and there, denying drops or warp prisms shouldnt be that hard. I know they cost supply, but 1 supply isnt much late game when you already have a lot of orbitals to replace SCVs. I mean in SC1, there was a brief period where if toss got arbiters they would just free-win vs terran mid-late game by recalling into their base and stasising the ramp. Then terrans got wise and started putting 10 turrets and 20 spidermines in their base. Widow mines arent free, I know, but a warp prism isn't an arbiter and you dont need 20 WMs to shut it down. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 09 2013 22:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote: The thing about Thors is that if you make them stronger stats wise, they become pretty ridiculous - they already have insane DPS. I think some kind of utility upgrade could maybe be cool... Like... being able to transform into static defense or something, idk (that was just something I thought about because of naruto's post, not sure its even remotely a good idea just throwing it out there as an example of what I mean by utility). I think the ability to switch between splash and single target AA is really fitting as a concept, and would love to see them expand even more on this aspect of terran (I can never have enough of it tbh ).One thing I'm wondering about with regards to what naruto posted, is mines --- is it really unreasonable to use them as defense? Feels to me like if you zone with turrets and put a few mines here and there, denying drops or warp prisms shouldnt be that hard. I know they cost supply, but 1 supply isnt much late game when you already have a lot of orbitals to replace SCVs. I mean in SC1, there was a brief period where if toss got arbiters they would just free-win vs terran mid-late game by recalling into their base and stasising the ramp. Then terrans got wise and started putting 10 turrets and 20 spidermines in their base. Widow mines arent free, I know, but a warp prism isn't an arbiter and you dont need 20 WMs to shut it down. Mines cost 2supply. Apart from that, I can definitely agree with the concept of those switching modes for Mech being pretty cool. I just think that blizzard won't change anything big until LotV at this point, as the progamers, the community and they themselves are pretty confident about balance at the moment and don't want to disrupt it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:00 MockHamill wrote: Great changes overall but the problem is that Zealots will now counter Hellbats instead of the other way around. It will nerf both bio TvP and mech TvP. It's not that hard or expensive or delayed to upgrade blue flame if you play mech. But yeah, bio+hellbat may become exotic. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Well.. They should be 1 supply. Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... | ||
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On July 09 2013 22:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Ah damn you are right, I was sure they were 1 supply for some odd reason. Well.. They should be 1 supply. Except they are already absurd vs zerg. How do we make them 1 supply but not fuck zerg up anymore than needed... How about decreasing the (gas) cost and making them suicide units? | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On July 09 2013 20:03 Brian333 wrote: Reply with a stupid post that totally missed every point I was making and brought up an angle that I had already addressed? seems legit... Not disagreeing, just wanted to note that no static defense, neither spine/spore nor cannons, deals well with late game harass, whether it be from cracklings, from chargelots or from bio drops. Static defense is mainly to stall the opponent and forcing him to micro should he/she want to target your workers. | ||
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