Opinion on new hellbat nerf patch - Page 5

On July 09 2013 15:45 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I feel we have to wait for the rest of the group matches of WCS Korea Premier League Ro16 to see the consequences of the patch. No other terrans come even close in skill.

The big question: Will Inno survive the patch or will he fall behind Flash?

On July 09 2013 15:45 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I feel we have to wait for the rest of the group matches of WCS Korea Premier League Ro16 to see the consequences of the patch. No other terrans come even close in skill.

The big question: Will Inno survive the patch or will he fall behind Flash?

On July 09 2013 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:
No need to cry. Even if it is a Terran nerf, hellbats were too cost effective and it is a right thing to do. If buffs are needed elsewhere, will be seen in time.

On July 09 2013 16:28 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
If terrans results become notably poor in the next 2-3 major tournaments as well as consistently throughout many small tournaments over that time, something would probably happen sooner than you think.
The biggest cause of a delay to a patch buffing terran would then be due to possible uncertainty about what should be buffed.

On July 09 2013 09:05 Inimic wrote:
A balance thread, but since a pro posted it its okay. Nice.

On July 09 2013 10:12 Porishan wrote:
This is a balance discussion and his opinion about the changes in 3 matchups, NOT a balance whining thread.

...we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.

On July 09 2013 16:32 NarutO wrote:
What I'd like to see is actually a supply-less base defence for Terran. This would be a completely other topic I guess, but right now I feel the 'biggest' concern for Terran is being pulled apart by runbys against Zerg (which are more easily to stop than the TvP problem) and warpins or blinkstalkers from Protoss.

If you send a warpprism to the Terran main, even a turretring usually cannot cover everything and a planetary is no main-defence, but merely expansion defence, while its a very good tool, it isn't sufficient to defend against runbys or at least not enough to actually save your workers. I'd love to see a ground-turret or something like that. It might sound dumb, but I feel thats the biggest concern of Terran, that you can be pulled out of position easily while all other races have static defence or even moveable static defence/tools to get to their bases quick. Zerg has increased mobility on creep and is fast moving to begin with and spines/spores by a ton of time, Protoss has potentially recall or photon overcharge, depending on where the MSC is + warpins when not maxed.

If you are maxed as Terran and you get a runby in your main or warpin, you have to go there and moreso against PRotoss, you usually need to send more than a handfull of units, which allows attacks on other expansions even covered by planetaries. Just some thought about the MUs



Marines to 75hp. Just kidding :D

On July 09 2013 17:19 Brian333 wrote:


Terrans already have a "supply-less" and "free" base defense. They are called auto-turrets and PDDs and they last forever with durable materials.

I never understood why Terrans don't make more Ravens. They are only 2 supply and have such great utility in the late-game once the pace slows down and energy based units start to shine.

On July 09 2013 15:39 NarutO wrote:
Furthermore, I don't understand why you mention that in TvP, Bio-Terrans cannot use the hellbat in lategame. For every matchup, you get more than one factory after at least you got your third base up. Against Zergs Bio Terrans, no matter if Hellbat or Widowmine usually get a factory with a techlab, it allows you to upgrade faster mine burrow, blueflame, it allows you to build Thors which can be also very good (see HeRoMarine style).

TvP can easily be done with a 2nd factory to research blueflame and add a barracks to it later on, I doubt thats a problem. What I really find problematic is the 2-2 Zealot/Archon timing. It was very well defendable if you scouted it and played a hellbat opener, now after the patch, I dare to say we will see less hellbat openeres but more CC first/bio play or widowmine drops followed by either cloak or standard play. This will lead to the tails build (dt drop) followed by 2-2 zealot/archon timing to be very strong. Even with an wall-off and multiple bunkers, you usually need the hellbat spray damage vs zealots to fight, otherwise you flat out die.
.

On July 09 2013 18:15 phazeOne wrote:

I think the question should not be if you can still build hellbats in lategame TvP, but if you still want to build them.
Currently I feel Hellbats are more of a unit which you carry over from midgame timings instead of a unit you build a lot more of in lategame. That's probably because the upgrade discrepancy of like 0/2 against a 3/3/3 toss becomes apparent and, imo more importantly, although it is more cost efficient, the hellbat is not as supply-efficient as mass ghosts, the lategame zealot counter.

So my prediction would be that we see very few hellbats in TvP from now on, since timings (defensively to defend vs the mentioned 2/2 zealot archon or offensively to pressure a pre maxed out toss army) get nerfed quite heavily and there is a lack of use for hellbats in lategame in general.

On July 09 2013 18:04 NarutO wrote:


Are you serious? How is that supply-less defence? Auto-turrets and PDDs require a 2-supply unit. Might as well put a bunker with 4 marines then. Really... wow, that comment. Not to mention that you will have less-supply that is actually worth anything in a fight. Ravens can be feedbacked and will be useless, and even if you get a HSM off.... against Protoss, really? PDDs can be feedbacked as well and most Protoss don't play Stalker heavy to begin with.

On July 09 2013 18:29 NarutO wrote:


I didn't hit as many lategame TvP lately, and I'm very positive towards mass ghost, but mass amount of ghosts also hold weaknesses. You usually want to nullify shields and energy on everything, besides that their DPS against zealots is great, but its single target DPS. Colossi are also a big problem to ghosts so having less supply in ghosts (not 35+) would allow fora bit tankier army with a few more marauders/hellbats) so you can actually take out colossi more easily. Vikings are already great in that composition but if he really commits to stalker/colossus for example, ghost/viking can suffer hard defeat. I dare to say the hellbat wouldn't help there as much either but I think you get my point.

Personally I feel all-midgame is still very good to get hellbats, the nerf is big, but 8 hellbats still deal enough damage to make it worthwhile having them in front against zealots. Its like the blueflame nerf, people thought now blueflame hellions suck.... and in reality, they didn't.

It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes.

On July 09 2013 19:01 phazeOne wrote:


Then there still will be the problem of what you upgrade out of your armory. Vikings with 0 attack in late game against a high amount of colossi sounds quite horrible to me. And if you upgrade those instead of mech armor, woudn't 3/3 Marauders do a better job at tanking than 0/0 hellbats?

Also, the blue flame nerf actually affected the meta game a lot didn't it? Blue flame helion + Medivac was a quite standard harass opener in pretty much every matchup, even in TvP. After the patch, the BFH-play became mainly dedicated to mech-only players, which I claim might also happen after this patch with hellbats.
I mean, there still are some rare occasions in which you see BFH being integrated in TvZ bio timings, but it seems rather gimmicky and relies a lot on the zerg not building roaches.
Edit: @Brian333

Not sure if troll...?

On July 09 2013 18:56 Brian333 wrote:


It's supply less defense because turrets don't cost supply, they cost energy, and energy replenishes with time. The unit that makes them costs supply, but that's like saying cannons are 1 supply because a probe has to make them. The difference is one costs a finite resource and lasts forever. The other costs an infinite resource and lasts 4 minutes.

Protoss don't play Stalker heavy but they make enough of them to clean up medivacs and vikings in the early / mid game. Protoss players focus fire vikings with stalkers these days. Being able to shield vikings from stalker fire so they last a little longer could be the difference between whether or not you have to remake vikings or get to make more medivacs. If they're feed backing your Raven, that's one feedback that isn't on a medivac or ghost turning them into 2 useless supply.

And really, what do you say of the Thorzain / Naniwa game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3L26X3RP4)? Ravens basically made that work.

On July 09 2013 19:09 NarutO wrote:
Go to the unit tester, tell me how well autoturrets do against zealot/dt warpin. Or even an archon. Now while we can agree that they don't do super well, its still "efficient" in terms of cost, as energ>minerals, even if they kill one zealot, but the point still stands. Its not supply-less defence, it costs a raven and a raven is expensive in terms of gas, needs a (at worst) third and fourth starport and isn't viable in standard play.

Terran already has a hard time in fights, 2-3 ravens won't change it. One game as example isn't enough as I can name hundrets of TvP where you won't see a raven for the reason that you add supply that is basically useless. Comparing an auto turret to a cannon is stupid, especially the way you did it with the probe...