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Late game Hellbats don't change once you research BFH.
So the only difference is that you will make 3 Hellbats from a tech lab Factory while the upgrade researches. Then you can swap for a reactor and make exactly the same Hellbat you had before.
Terran doesn't need blue flame hellbats to deal with mid-game Protoss Chargelot Archon. They were dealing with it just fine in WoL before the Hellbat existed.
I think the changes are both fine. Hellbat should affect mostly TvT.. P and Z who are paying attention can usually avoid losing workers to them by reacting quickly as they move quite slowly.
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If you think that Bio will be weak vs mass zealot late game, what about moving the blueflame upgrade to the armory? Sure all upgrades should be in tech labs but w/e it would solve the problem I think.
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On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
You sound like a ghost user in early 2012.
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On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012.
are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
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As far as Hellbat vs Zealot goes, I think they should still do fine. They still have a ton of health and splash damage. They're going to go from OMGWTFBBQ good to merely pretty good, at least in my opinion.
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On July 09 2013 07:52 Rui.S wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012. are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
just another unmoderated act of trolling on the TL forums
adds nothing to the discussion, just looking for an angry response, don't even respond
User was temp banned for this post.
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I really don't think hellbats need to be nerfed. Banshees are cheaper, but you aren't going to see them vs zerg much, spores are up before an evo, so pretty easy to defend against. Maybe the 1/1/1 build will be back ?
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On July 09 2013 07:52 Rui.S wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:48 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport You sound like a ghost user in early 2012. are you referring to the emp nerf or the snipe nerf, because no one made ghosts in tvz after the snipe nerf.
TvP actually, for a long time all the stress was that templars were op, because there was no counter to storm anymore now that ghosts were useless, and so on. The ghost nerf was MUCH bigger than the hellbat nerf is, and after a while terrans realized that ghosts were still essential in TvP.
But you probably shouldn't listen to me, I have a difference of opinion with c0sm0naut, I'm obviously a troll.
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[B]On July 09 2013 08:09 Nebuchad wrote:
But you probably shouldn't listen to me, I have a difference of opinion with c0sm0naut, I'm obviously a troll.
If you think this is why I consider your posts to be harassment, maybe you should reread your writing and consider your tone as well as actual interest in discussion
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Anyone who says lategame Hellbats will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 150/150, which is negligible in the lategame! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack.
Edit-Fixed numbers
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"topick", somehow i read it as toothpick :D
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On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
[-] Hellbat openers are useless now.
[-] Bio terrans won't be able to use hellbats. So they will deal some problems in late game with mass zeals + mothership core slow.
[-] Banshees will be still useless in TvP because of mothership core (probably overcharge needs to be only against ground units?) and rather big possibilty of stargate openers.
Overcharge only being good against Ground units is very bad because Overcharge is a big part of defense against Mutas.
In general, I think the better reaction would be a Range nerf. Something that would allow a Banshee to come in, get hit, and still get out without getting destroyed.
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Italy12246 Posts
There were several marine/tank TvZ builds in wol that went 2fact tank on 3bases in WoL, so we know that it is in fact possible to add tech labs to something that isnt a rax in the mid/lategame. Which begs the question, why exactly can you not add in hellbats lategame after the patch?
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I think they should give Tanks a slight buff. Mech rights now is simply not that good or viable in any matchup--people always talk about the uselessness of Tanks in TvP, but they're not exactly that great in the other matchups either. Buffing tanks would not only be a buff to mech directly, it would also make having a tech lab on your factory a lot less onerous.
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On July 09 2013 07:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 07:16 StarGalaxy wrote:
"Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to."
Hellbats do they same damage against zealots as before if you get blueflame. In the latgame you certainly can afford it. now have to produce hellbats one at a time off a techlabbed factory for two game minutes to research this upgrade. it's just not gonna happen man. People are simply not going to make hellbats, or it will be a 3bases + kind of thing like ghosts or double starport
I've seen in TvZ people make a second factory for a tech lab and crank out widow mines 3 at a time while upgrading drilling claws, is that not viable in TvP, only with hellbats instead of mines? I play zerg so I don't really know the kind of production you need on hellbats to make them do well, but the upgrade takes the same amount of time and people get it anyway.
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I thnk for 100 minerals you still get a damn good unit.
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On July 09 2013 08:22 Fig wrote:
Anyone who says lategame TvP will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 100/100! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack.
No, it requires time (takes quite a while to research the blue flame) and even more resources (read: building extra factory with techlab for total of 350/275), or APM for floating buildings / swapping addons and limiting your production (you can build only 1 hellbat at a time with the TL and 0 when you are making the TL).
This will make both the roach-ling-bane all-in an muta-ling-bling styles much stronger vs T, also dealing with aggressive protosses with the speed prisms will be harder. At the same time any hellbat-marauder attacks will be easier to stop.
I think this is enough to give the T a serious kick in the balls, pushing them into "I need to end this before 15m" builds once again.
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On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
TvP:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
I think this is a little inaccurate. Hellbats are still good, this just delays their stupidly good cost efficiency. You can easily afford blueflame somewhere between early game and 15-20 minutes as a bio terran. Just need 1 factory with techlab then switch it with a reactor'd rax once you're done researching and viola, hellbats are good as they prepatch.
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On July 09 2013 08:27 Teoita wrote:
There were several marine/tank TvZ builds in wol that went 2fact tank on 3bases in WoL, so we know that it is in fact possible to add tech labs to something that isnt a rax in the mid/lategame. Which begs the question, why exactly can you not add in hellbats lategame after the patch?
completly irrelevant
On July 09 2013 08:50 Ry2D2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 05:28 Strelok wrote:
TvP:
Hellbats had rather important function late game - they tanked zealots. Now, they won't be able to.
I think this is a little inaccurate. Hellbats are still good, this just delays their stupidly good cost efficiency. You can easily afford blueflame somewhere between early game and 15-20 minutes as a bio terran. Just need 1 factory with techlab then switch it with a reactor'd rax once you're done researching and viola, hellbats are good as they prepatch.
its like saying charge now costs 500/500 but its still same as prepatch
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On July 09 2013 08:41 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 08:22 Fig wrote:
Anyone who says lategame TvP will be affected is ridiculous. It's a difference of 100/100! If they want to make Hellbats still they just have to remember to attach a techlab to a factory during mid/lategame for a couple mins. It's really not hard, nor game-changing, just a tiny difference that you have to remember now. I feel for you though. Remembering Blue Flame AND Concussive Shells is gonna be tough. Well I guess Blue Flame should be easier since you can actually just look at the color of the attack. No, it requires time (takes quite a while to research the blue flame) and even more resources (read: building extra factory with techlab for total of 350/275), or APM for floating buildings / swapping addons and limiting your production (you can build only 1 hellbat at a time with the TL and 0 when you are making the TL). This will make both the roach-ling-bane all-in an muta-ling-bling styles much stronger vs T, also dealing with aggressive protosses with the speed prisms will be harder. At the same time any hellbat-marauder attacks will be easier to stop. I think this is enough to give the T a serious kick in the balls, pushing them into "I need to end this before 15m" builds once again.
Your last sentence doesn't make any sense. This change is making Hellbats worse in the early game. It affects the early game much more than it affects anything lategame, since that Infernal Preignitor upgrade becomes more reasonable to research as you gather more resources during the game. Therefore there is no way any Terran should feel pushed into "I need to end this before 15m." That is just bad logic.
I'm sorry that this change will force you to do something slightly different. You will probably need to prepare to add in Hellbats a bit before you actually need them. That way, rather than incur the cost of another entire factory, you can just start using the one you have earlier, instead than leaving it idle or scouting with it during midgame. But being prepared is important in this game. The most prepared player usually wins.
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EPT
