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Diamond level zerg here in WoL so I was wondering versus bio/window mine in ZvT (HoTS), I sometimes feel uncomfortable taking a third expansion [sometimes lose it/forced to cancel/other times terrans seem to be a bit greedy and delay their push making it easier to take] when a terran takes a quick CC of their own in the early game and follow up w/ mild pressure.
When would be the best time to take a third expansion versus a terran going bio with the possibility of them doing a widow mine/bio attack at around the 8 minute mark on farther away thirds that takes a bit of time to spread creep to such as Daybreak (and keeping it alive of course)?
Hi guys! I'm having a lot of trouble with the stephano style opener in ZvP. I am not able to defend my 3rd in time (usually against gate pushes or immo sentry). I take the 3rd directly at 18 supply after I got rid of the first probe If I take it later I'm not able to saturate it in time before the big attack. Are there any general things I can keep in mind besides the protoss' gas timings and are there some valid 2 base openers with a delayed 3rd that are more effective at dealing with the usual timing attacks immo sentry and 7 gates? Thanks in advance, awesome thread idea!
I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
I'm a masters player having trouble in HoTs against protoss.
When they do a MSC + gate pressure at my third, I feel like I'm forced to overproduce units while they just recall back to their main, while expanding or teching behind it. It's hard for me to put on counter-pressure due to the defensive abilities of photon overcharge and due to over-producing units to not lose my third/fourth, I fall behind in the late game and lose alot. What should I do?
Hey, I'm a mid/high masters lately having problems with ZvP 3 bases allin. I always die to those pushes very very 1 sided, like the 3/4 colosi or immortal,archon mix. I have all my spines ready, infestors, corruptors, some roach ling army but yet I have no idea how to stop that push. Is there any method or ways to stop those pushes? Or should I start heavy aggression before the push starts?
On March 05 2013 00:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
Hey defending quality hellion banshee pressure is difficult with an early 3rd base and relying solely on queens, spines, spores and zergling speed. Often times, you'll find yourself in more trouble than in a good position - taking a super fast 3rd is extremely technical. I'll be honest here, the only times I manage to pull ahead with those kinds of openings were when the terran made a big control mistake or didn't apply that type of pressure. To me it feels like a bit of a coin-flip, and I at least just stopped doing early 3rd openings because of what you mentioned. The IPL DICE LucifroN vs Scarlett games were also typical examples of how frustrating and difficult/technical it can be to deal with this type of pressure with early 3rd lair-less openings.
I'd try using a 2-base tech play instead of rushing to a 3rd. Either 2-base muta, or 2-base roach. I prefer 2-base roach.
Miniguide: Grab natural. Gasless 4 queen opening. Double gas at 5 minutes. Drone up. 100 gas into lair. Start evolution chamber. Drone more. Add on 2nd evo and roach warren in front with a walloff (very important). Make more drones. Evo complete: Melee+Carapace. Optimal droning until 60 supply, then make overlords and roaches. If no cars, place 3rd asap when you've reached this stage. If hellions are present, wait for roaches and then take 3rd. If more than 4 hellions, make 2 defensive overseers in case of cloak and keep adding queens. The more hellions, the more likely that there will be more banshees.
From here you can keep massing roaches/queens to control the map and deal with the reactor hellion banshee play. You will be on 2-base for a while, but not to the extent that it will critically hinder your economy. Keep your units close to you and don't move off creep, you don't have to. Keep in mind you can also do the very popular and effective 2-base roach 'all-in style' push with this opening. Or, you can transition into infestor+drone and infestor+ling.
If you still want to be taking a 3rd early, it's probably best to take it even sooner than 6 or 7 minutes so that you get a good creep connection and more queens out early. You will probably want to put a spore in every base at 8:00 and wall-off with evolution chambers, baneling nest in your nat. Have a spine in your 3rd (about 6:45 maybe?), lingspeed in time (taking gas at 4:00 is good). Always make a few defensive banelings. In general, you need flawless positioning and always keep in mind that one small mistake will make it snowball out of control - that goes for both you and the terran player. Finding the line between defending and droning up is also very difficult. Commit too much to either, and you'll be in trouble. Oh, and I also lost pretty much every game to properly controlled 2fac reactor hellions. Defensive banelings is a must-have and even then it's sometimes difficult. You should also never fight off-creep against hellions, keep all your units close to you.
2-base play for a while will provide you with a far more rounded and safe transition into the midgame, so that's my best tip even if it might not have been what you were looking for.
I've seen a lot of people eschew baneling nest in favour of a gasless queen opening in ZvZ into roach. With the more powerful muta midgame coming in HotS I am thinking this style would be a better one to learn. What is the best and safest style to use/walloff to use? I am assuming that I can take a third with absolute impunity vs a ling/bane from my opponent once I have a handful of roaches and a spine out? What timing should I use for double gas in main (have been thinking around 5.00, 100 gas into Lair then spire, roach speed)?
I'm having huge troubles going up against muta in ZvZ. Everytime i play against muta, the games go this way :
I loose the mapcontrol, sometimes i save my 3rd, not often. Even if i manage to save my third, my opponent just outgreed me by taking a fast 4th. So when i go out with my upgrade advantage, infestors and roaches/hydralisks, i'm missing so much bank that i lose to his production.
If i try to go out with 1/1 roaches when i see that muta are coming, most of the time there are spines ready in his natural. I just lose all my roaches for nothing.
In standard roaches vs roaches, I have a nice win rate. But I lose most of my games against muta.
So i wonder, what is the best way to deal with muta, how to be almost always ahead despite losing map control ?
Please note that i hate muta vs muta so I really dont want to open mutalisks in ZvZ.
Hello, high platinum here, i was playing with a friend yesterday that was going to mech, and i get like 25 mutas at 12 min? maybe, i don't remember the exact time, but with that amount of mutas i destroyed his main (CC, scvs, tanks), then he tried to attack me with all he has left, die in the middle and surrender, i had 4 bases and in transition to brood lords. My question is this: Is this the best way to play against mech?, mech is sooooo much hard for me and this is the first time i win against it.
On March 05 2013 04:37 Sammyhain wrote: Have you tried fungal + blinding cloud combo? Ive used it a few times against terran players and I am curious why I have never seen it in pro matches.
There are no vipers in WoL. I know you have good intentions, but Might want to let the pros take this one.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: Hello all! I'm high master, but i have some problems vs toss. Maybe you can help me!
How to play safe vs 1 gate expand into gate pressure/stargate play?
I have played quite a bit of HotS recently and I believe your question is best answered keeping in mind the new expansion's options, metagame and units. I personally have had a lot of success with the standard 15 Pool 15 Hatch and Gas as soon as your overlord scouts he's not fast expanding, that would be around 20 supply on most maps. Staying on 2 bases, you always want to have an overlord on his natural gasses and an overlord outside his main. Using these two overlords and a couple of lings you will be able to see if, at the 5.45-6.00 minute mark, he's going for a fast gateway all in. The answer for that is mass lings sniping the pylon, lings and spines, roaches, queens and spines, even lings and banelings work. If you scout it coming, you can hold it with pretty much anything, if it catches you by surprise, you're very likely not going to have enough of anything to hold it with pure units, so your best bet is to plant down 3-4 reactive spines and try to buy as much time as possible with your lings, still it's gonna be hard to hold it. As for stargate play, spores no longer require an evo chamber so even if you're caught completely off guard you should still be able to hold with queens until spores are up. Hydras received a buff and as far as I've tested Hydra/Ling is a solid but most importantly safe option against any two base play. You will obviously blind counter Stargate and Immortal play, you will also have enough time to react to a Colossi/HT follow up if your timings are crisp and you send in an Overseer as soon as your lair finishes. Hydras will also transition well into the new Roach/Hydra/Viper or my personal favourite, Hydra/Swarm Host. These two are the safest options I have experienced so far, obviously there are other more aggressive or defensive paths to take but the more you lean towards either one the more you'll be taking a gamble.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: How to react safely to a fast 3rd protoss ? I usually like to go mutas, but if he go blink or double stargate phoenix i can't do enought damages.
Help me! :D
Ty all!
I like to go mutas too, assuming a standard 15/15 vs ffe scenario, you will want to always have an overlord over the protoss' third base and ideally a ling too, as soon as you scout he's going for a fast expansion, you have two options:
- You can aggressively tech up to anything, assuming you stay active with your scout to avoid 3 Nexus/10 Gate builds, which are however quite rare, there will be a big gap of time in which he won't be able to attack you. You will be able to get any tech out by the time he can be aggressive and then work towards your 4th base.
- You can aggressively expand and try to take him on his field, being greedier than he was. Given he won't be able to attack, you can take your 4th and 5th right as you see his third. This works exceptionally well with spire, obviously you will want to saturate all your gasses as soon as your hatcheries complete and invest all of it into mutas. You will be able to outrun him thanks to your 10 gasses. If you want to play mutas, you need to be aware of the fact that a few corruptors will be necessary against a decent phoenix count, but a reactive double stargate will not be able to pull out enough phoenixes to hold your muta number. As for blink stalkers you will want to be very active with your mutas and trade them as efficiently as possible for his stalkers. It's extremely hard to hold multiple attacks with just stalkers and if you catch a pack out of position he will likely lose a base. In that second scenario lings work well too, you don't necessairly have to mass them but you will have some minerals floating anyway, so a pack of lings on his third/natural while you hit his main with your mutas will be very hard to hold. I suggest +melee attack for your lings if you decide to use them, I personally don't think +capace is any good, that gas is better spent in mutas. On top of that, always keep an overseer in your pack of mutas to snipe observers, if he doesn't know where you're coming from you are a lot more likely to do damage when you fly in.
Hi Guys ! I play High Diamond on Wings of Liberty, my question is about both games. How do you set up a great flank ? What are your tips ? For example : Do you use shift ? I do that sometimes but my units often take a weird path which costs me a lot.
Do you use different control groups ? Most of the time I feel that i don t have enough time to create new control groups but the flank timing is harder to reach then.
More generally : how do you pull "army reorganizations" off ?" Example of what I do in ZvZ when I want to sneak roaches while I attack on the main front: I move on my roach timing then stop before engaging, then shift click on like 6 roaches pictures and redefine my control group, then move my new main army, then select those 6 who stayed, create control group number 2, and then do da thing.. It takes me sooo much time..
I asked that after seeing CJeffort vs MVPKiller today in up and downs, the guy attacked with roaches at different locations, it was very neat I was really wondering how he managed to do it.
On March 05 2013 00:45 Misacampo wrote: I'm a masters player having trouble in HoTs against protoss.
When they do a MSC + gate pressure at my third, I feel like I'm forced to overproduce units while they just recall back to their main, while expanding or teching behind it. It's hard for me to put on counter-pressure due to the defensive abilities of photon overcharge and due to over-producing units to not lose my third/fourth, I fall behind in the late game and lose alot. What should I do?
Hey Misacampo
Good Question! That's something I am having big difficulties with as well. Basically I think you have to accept the fact that in ZvP Protoss can always move out and put on pressure. There are two ways to deal with it in my opinion:
Either you need to invest into a strong mobile force pretty early on that can intercept Protoss armies early on, before it becomes too strong due to warp-ins. The nice thing about that is that you can also deny a fast third like that. Since Protoss can always recall you won't to avoid the fight to be taken to your side of the map I believe.
or
You defend as usual but now you have to hit the perfect amount of units, it's much more difficult for Zerg than before because of both timewarp and recall but I believe it's possible. Try to find ways to optimize your defense, find better arcs and see if you can improve you creep spread. Maybe try a spine or two if the timings work out.
After you defend the push well enough try to take a fourth and see if you can hit a nice timing with either Swarmhosts or roach hydra Viper. (Swarmhosts are good vs templar tech, while viper work excellent vs collosus)
Sorry I wish I could be more helpful than this, but I have yet to figure out most of these things myself in Hots.
On March 05 2013 00:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
Hey defending quality hellion banshee pressure is difficult with an early 3rd base and relying solely on queens, spines, spores and zergling speed. Often times, you'll find yourself in more trouble than in a good position - taking a super fast 3rd is extremely technical. I'll be honest here, the only times I manage to pull ahead with those kinds of openings were when the terran made a big control mistake or didn't apply that type of pressure. To me it feels like a bit of a coin-flip, and I at least just stopped doing early 3rd openings because of what you mentioned. The IPL DICE LucifroN vs Scarlett games were also typical examples of how frustrating and difficult/technical it can be to deal with this type of pressure with early 3rd lair-less openings.
I'd try using a 2-base tech play instead of rushing to a 3rd. Either 2-base muta, or 2-base roach. I prefer 2-base roach.
Miniguide: Grab natural. Gasless 4 queen opening. Double gas at 5 minutes. Drone up. 100 gas into lair. Start evolution chamber. Drone more. Add on 2nd evo and roach warren in front with a walloff (very important). Make more drones. Evo complete: Melee+Carapace. Optimal droning until 60 supply, then make overlords and roaches. If no cars, place 3rd asap when you've reached this stage. If hellions are present, wait for roaches and then take 3rd. If more than 4 hellions, make 2 defensive overseers in case of cloak and keep adding queens. The more hellions, the more likely that there will be more banshees.
From here you can keep massing roaches/queens to control the map and deal with the reactor hellion banshee play. You will be on 2-base for a while, but not to the extent that it will critically hinder your economy. Keep your units close to you and don't move off creep, you don't have to. Keep in mind you can also do the very popular and effective 2-base roach 'all-in style' push with this opening. Or, you can transition into infestor+drone and infestor+ling.
If you still want to be taking a 3rd early, it's probably best to take it even sooner than 6 or 7 minutes so that you get a good creep connection and more queens out early. You will probably want to put a spore in every base at 8:00 and wall-off with evolution chambers, baneling nest in your nat. Have a spine in your 3rd (about 6:45 maybe?), lingspeed in time (taking gas at 4:00 is good). Always make a few defensive banelings. In general, you need flawless positioning and always keep in mind that one small mistake will make it snowball out of control - that goes for both you and the terran player. Finding the line between defending and droning up is also very difficult. Commit too much to either, and you'll be in trouble. Oh, and I also lost pretty much every game to properly controlled 2fac reactor hellions. Defensive banelings is a must-have and even then it's sometimes difficult. You should also never fight off-creep against hellions, keep all your units close to you.
2-base play for a while will provide you with a far more rounded and safe transition into the midgame, so that's my best tip even if it might not have been what you were looking for.
First things first, congratz for your recent results (except when you last killed stephano on televised match coz i'm stephano fanboy haha) and thanks for taking time answering! It's super awesome
Considering what you just wrote, i found it super informative. I'm close to GM mmr in europe with 70% win zvt and i've been opening gasless third into 6 or 7 queens defense with a spine in my third asap and a blind roach warren in case I see too much helions. I'm never taking any damage from helions banshee with this build and i was always of opinion that the extra greediness makes up for later tech and investment in queens. Plus queens are worth ten times their mineral cost in the late game to snipe vikings/transfuse hive units. They also help against 2 base stim timings and things like that.
So i never understood why 6 queens gasless third fell slowly out of fashion at pro level. Is it simply because I didnt meet good enough terran yet? Is hellion banshee supposed to damage 6 queens? And by going speed or lair before third like most pro Z, dont you feel uncomfortably low eco? Especially against something like 3 OC opening?
On March 05 2013 06:17 v_lm wrote: Hi Guys ! I play High Diamond on Wings of Liberty, my question is about both games. How do you set up a great flank ? What are your tips ? For example : Do you use shift ? I do that sometimes but my units often take a weird path which costs me a lot.
Do you use different control groups ? Most of the time I feel that i don t have enough time to create new control groups but the flank timing is harder to reach then.
More generally : how do you pull "army reorganizations" off ?" Example of what I do in ZvZ when I want to sneak roaches while I attack on the main front: I move on my roach timing then stop before engaging, then shift click on like 6 roaches pictures and redefine my control group, then move my new main army, then select those 6 who stayed, create control group number 2, and then do da thing.. It takes me sooo much time..
I asked that after seeing CJeffort vs MVPKiller today in up and downs, the guy attacked with roaches at different locations, it was very neat I was really wondering how he managed to do it.
Thanks a lot !
If you're going to send small numbers from a big army (say 8 roaches from a big control group), you can take your entire ball and move-command it to a location. Second step is to shift-click units away from the control group - as many as you want for the runby. Then, save the main army control group again and move it somewhere back/safe. You can now select your runby group and move it to where you want, hotkey it if you like. I use this method a lot to deal with drops. A-move my entire army to the drop location, shift-click units away and save the group again. Then move the big army back to the center for example.
The other method might be more widely used. You can section off groups of your army, prepare them - hotkey if you like - and send them off while you keep the rest of your army in a big clump. After sending the runby off, you can select the rest of your entire army that's still visible in the screen by using ctrl-click on the units you want to have in it and save again. ctrl-shiftclick if you want to have different unit types in same control group (roaches and hydras).
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/pathy/TLSTRAT/PROZERGQA.jpg)
Blade(NA GM, HotS GM)
defending quality hellion banshee pressure is difficult with an early 3rd base and relying solely on queens, spines, spores and zergling speed. Often times, you'll find yourself in more trouble than in a good position - taking a super fast 3rd is extremely technical. I'll be honest here, the only times I manage to pull ahead with those kinds of openings were when the terran made a big control mistake or didn't apply that type of pressure. To me it feels like a bit of a coin-flip, and I at least just stopped doing early 3rd openings because of what you mentioned. The IPL DICE LucifroN vs Scarlett games were also typical examples of how frustrating and difficult/technical it can be to deal with this type of pressure with early 3rd lair-less openings.
