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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On June 07 2013 07:00 darkphantom wrote: What should u do vs double stargate opener ? I'm not a pro, but no one answered you. You start queen production and put down >2 spores at the most likely point of attack, assuming he's doing it off 2 base and producing void rays. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
On June 14 2013 04:08 Decendos wrote: 1. how do you deal with MMM + hellbats? i am so tired of completely outplaying my opponents in literally every single way just to die to this stupid comp that attacks right as i would like to build mutas. so no i cant and have to go for roach ling bane while trading horribly thx to mines and hellbats and there it begins...the slow death. always have to rebuild roach ling bane while never being able to get mutas out, counterattack or kill medivacs which ultimately leaves to him killing me with 3 3 and medivacs or even before. i feel so insanely lost and think Z cant win in a macro game ZvT which is so stupid.  any help for someone with a 75% winrate in zvz and 35% in zvt... 2. how do you open in a safe way ZvT. vs 888 reaper you lose with hatch first, vs 11 11 rax you lose with pool first + pool first means you sac economy. if you go superearly dronescout to scout and do reactive hatch first/pool first you lost so much mining time that it will be even harder to defend 11 11 rax. is it impossible to get a good safe opener in ZvT and T just gets free wins or eco lead? 1) Watch the HSC finals of Snute vs Taeja. You need a much higher drone count and lower gas count in ZvT these days. Stay on just 2 gas until you fully saturate you 3rd and drop your 4th base and macro hatch THEN add 3rd-4th and MAYBE 5th-6th gases. This will allow you to pump huge hordes of units to the point where you can overwhelm their attacks and keep your creep out. A golden rule for HotS ZvT is NEVER ever let them deny your creep-spread or sit on your half of the map for more than a minute, once this happens you will lose. You need to maintain creep spread and map control. As soon as you lose this you can't engage cost-efficiently and it is much harder to spot and respond to drops ahead of time. 2) Hatch-first can hold 8/8/8 reaper, Even if you hatch-gas-pool. Keep 3 drones attacking the reaper at all times and pull back hurt ones. It's hard micro but it's incredibly all-in so if you survive to get a good pack of queens or ling speed out even with just 12-13 drones left over you're usually not too far behind. If you micro really well you often end up ahead! Practice the micro vs a prac partner 10 games in a row and you will find it much easier to handle. pool-first beats 11/11 if you handle it right, though I prefer to just hatch-first and scout, cancel hatch and drop 2 gas in main base, 2 mining on each to bust out and counterattack ftw. Check out the Akilon wastes game of Soulkey vs Innovation from the last GSL Finals to see how this is done. I would recommend just always going 13 scout, 15 hatch. Sometimes you will lose the micro battles vs 11/11 or 8/8/8 but if you practice vs those specifically and don't go into the situations with a negative mindset I guarantee you will be able to win over 50% of these. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
On June 01 2013 21:33 potsos wrote: hi guys plat zerg here ! i have a problem with zvt ! they do a push with helbats marauders medivac and a few marines i have hard time dealing wiht it .i scout the armory but i donot know if it gona be drops or the push or both , i keep losing to it. any suggestion how should i defend it? Divide your scouting information into two categories: Signs of Greed: 1) 3rd CC 2) Double ebays 3) low barracks count 4) addons rather than constant production Signs of Aggression: 1) Lack of all the greedy stuff above^^  2) Factory still on reactor past 7:30 3) high barracks count 4) constant production rather than addons Now when seeing an armory always assume there will be drops! Some roaches + spore in each mineral line and maybe a spine or two too will make it much easier. As for if there will be a follow-up push check if their is more signs of aggression, or signs of greed? If you see no 3rd CC, no ebays, extra barracks going down early, factory still producing... stop at 2-base saturation and prepare for that attack! Lots of roaches is the way, they can micro very well vs lingbane so pure roach and stuttering/spreading vs hellbats is the key! Gl hf! | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On June 26 2013 23:53 PiGStarcraft wrote: 1) Watch the HSC finals of Snute vs Taeja. You need a much higher drone count and lower gas count in ZvT these days. Stay on just 2 gas until you fully saturate you 3rd and drop your 4th base and macro hatch THEN add 3rd-4th and MAYBE 5th-6th gases. This will allow you to pump huge hordes of units to the point where you can overwhelm their attacks and keep your creep out. A golden rule for HotS ZvT is NEVER ever let them deny your creep-spread or sit on your half of the map for more than a minute, once this happens you will lose. You need to maintain creep spread and map control. As soon as you lose this you can't engage cost-efficiently and it is much harder to spot and respond to drops ahead of time. 2) Hatch-first can hold 8/8/8 reaper, Even if you hatch-gas-pool. Keep 3 drones attacking the reaper at all times and pull back hurt ones. It's hard micro but it's incredibly all-in so if you survive to get a good pack of queens or ling speed out even with just 12-13 drones left over you're usually not too far behind. If you micro really well you often end up ahead! Practice the micro vs a prac partner 10 games in a row and you will find it much easier to handle. pool-first beats 11/11 if you handle it right, though I prefer to just hatch-first and scout, cancel hatch and drop 2 gas in main base, 2 mining on each to bust out and counterattack ftw. Check out the Akilon wastes game of Soulkey vs Innovation from the last GSL Finals to see how this is done. I would recommend just always going 13 scout, 15 hatch. Sometimes you will lose the micro battles vs 11/11 or 8/8/8 but if you practice vs those specifically and don't go into the situations with a negative mindset I guarantee you will be able to win over 50% of these. thanks a lot!  | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=394256#1 | ||
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EmNGiantNome
United States126 Posts
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:59 EmNGiantNome wrote: Hey guys! As a masters Zerg I have huge trouble lategame against Terran. It seems like I gain a commanding lead in the muta ling bling phase of the game but once I begin to make ultras the game seems to fall apart. Is the solution just to conserve my mutalisk flock to defend drops and harrass or what composition should I be aiming for? Keep building lings and conserve your mutalisks so you have mobile drop-defense. Always have some units dedicated to wait for drops, for instance a squad of 12 lings and 2 banes or 20 lings can do very well even vs double drops if you get right underneath it. Leaving 2 of these squads at both main base (defend your tech!) and an exposed base far away from here will make reacting to drops much easier. If you find yourself with only ultralisks use a single ultralisk for each of these drop-defense "squads". Make sure you use infestors with your ultralisks and it's incredibly hard for terran to be cost-efficient! | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
On June 27 2013 02:10 joon wrote: how are you guys dealing with the faster marine/mine pushes? I'm having a lot of trouble with them bc my lair usually isn't finished in time to get an overseer. do i just get a spore, mass ling, and pray i have life's micro? This sounds like it's very early pushes. As soon as you see a mine drop a spore at your natural and move it down to wherever the mines are for the cleanup. For the actual engage just attacking with lings or roaches is fine. Spread your units out before going in. If they're clumped up move your lings behind their force before A-moving so the splash works against him. If the marines are spread out, manually box and spread out your zerglings, or simply flank from multiple angles so they do this on their own. No matter what you should always see such an early push coming and have time to get suitable units out. If it ever reaches the point where the fight lasts over a minute and widow mines get multiple shots off, somethings gone wrong! | ||
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
On June 27 2013 02:55 PiGStarcraft wrote: This sounds like it's very early pushes. As soon as you see a mine drop a spore at your natural and move it down to wherever the mines are for the cleanup. For the actual engage just attacking with lings or roaches is fine. Spread your units out before going in. If they're clumped up move your lings behind their force before A-moving so the splash works against him. If the marines are spread out, manually box and spread out your zerglings, or simply flank from multiple angles so they do this on their own. No matter what you should always see such an early push coming and have time to get suitable units out. If it ever reaches the point where the fight lasts over a minute and widow mines get multiple shots off, somethings gone wrong! usually comes around 9:30 so when i see this coming i should drop a roach warren? ive been trying to just defend with ling/bane but its very fragile in such small numbers edit: when i say see it coming, i mean see that he's not doing the usual greedy 3cc,double ebay before rax | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^ | ||
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zergJared
United States56 Posts
First off I think its good to know i play mid-high masters. Okay against terran I go 14 scout 15 hatch. I only continue on with the build if I scout no gas and a rax or a CC first (tells me no reapers) If I see this I then continue with the build and go for 18 hatch. From here I continue to macro, get my 3 queens at the same time yadda yadda. About 5:30-6:00 I grab 4 gas. When I have 100 gas I get burrow and a roach warren. I then proceed to get about 15 roaches which I push with about 7:30-8:00. Burrow makes these roaches survive much longer than 19 roaches could which allows me to be aggressive longer while i macro up. Sometimes this wins the game sometimes it allows me to get four base. What Im wondering is what specifics could be changed with this build (gas timings, drone counts) to make these roaches come faster but not sacrificing to much economy. | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra? The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^ It could work sometimes, we see it sometimes in pro matches but most of the time the zerg just gets crushed. But you can play other style than roach hydra sh^^, usually better with viper though | ||
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zergJared
United States56 Posts
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra? The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^ A composition Ive found to be really good against mech is roach hydra baneling surprisingly. What you want to do if macro up first, mech doesnt move out for awhile. Then you get your basic roach hydra army and 24 banelings(1 page). Now you also want overlord speed and drops for when you attack so dont forget these upgrades. 24 banelings fit into 6 overlords When you attack, spread out overlords and your army, splash in deadly. focus on dropping banes on hellbats, then tanks. Roaches and hydras clean up the rest its so fun | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On June 28 2013 02:03 E.L.V.I.S wrote: It could work sometimes, we see it sometimes in pro matches but most of the time the zerg just gets crushed. But you can play other style than roach hydra sh^^, usually better with viper though When a pro goes sling/bling/muta vs. mech, what is their general approach? Just lots of backstabs till ultras? Or is there a point when you want to trade? Like, when you get 2/2 for lings/blings? | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
At the moment I'm getting a single gas at 25 and staying on it, getting burrow after 4 queens then lingspeed, 3 more gas as I take lingspeed, then bane nest upgrades and lair as normal. I think there's good surprise potential for defence and the delay on an early third by t is interesting. However my worries are 1. do i just NEED a gas at 18 because mass reapers (and/or scout for this)? 2. am i too delayed on my tech by going for 100 more gas? should i get ups first to not be behind or lair first for overseers? 3. I am getting 4 queens and starting burrow as the second set pops (i have just enough gas with 25gas), which means I expo at 0800 ish. Should I instead get the third at 0600 with 2 queens? What do dudes that go 2 queens do for creep spread? Thanks for any help Stardroid Space | ||
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feddeathlon
Germany11 Posts
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 28 2013 06:05 tili wrote: When a pro goes sling/bling/muta vs. mech, what is their general approach? Just lots of backstabs till ultras? Or is there a point when you want to trade? Like, when you get 2/2 for lings/blings? They don't, because it's bad. Hellbats shred lings it's not even funny. Do yourself a favor and use hydra-SH-viper. (You won't see much mech in tvz anyway because hydra-sh-viper is so terribly good against it.) | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 28 2013 06:25 feddeathlon wrote: Does a counter build against the +1 ling, fast 3rd base, delayed tech style in ZvZ exist? Which army composition should i go for? When i went for 2base Muta, how can i secure a 3rd base and how can i defend against the higher muta count of my opponent (because he didnt used his gas for banelings and has more gas mining)? You could try killing him with a timing (roach baneling or simply ling baneling) because he's got his gas into upgrades. Quick lair into muta is terrible against 1/1 lings into mutas, unless you somehow defend really well and manage to get your third up quickly. On June 28 2013 06:15 Stardroid wrote: I love HOTS and I want to experiment wiht a use of burrow early in zvt. I want to ask about distribution of resourcees in the build and any help would be appreciated. At the moment I'm getting a single gas at 25 and staying on it, getting burrow after 4 queens then lingspeed, 3 more gas as I take lingspeed, then bane nest upgrades and lair as normal. I think there's good surprise potential for defence and the delay on an early third by t is interesting. However my worries are 1. do i just NEED a gas at 18 because mass reapers (and/or scout for this)? 2. am i too delayed on my tech by going for 100 more gas? should i get ups first to not be behind or lair first for overseers? 3. I am getting 4 queens and starting burrow as the second set pops (i have just enough gas with 25gas), which means I expo at 0800 ish. Should I instead get the third at 0600 with 2 queens? What do dudes that go 2 queens do for creep spread? Thanks for any help Stardroid Space There's no real need of getting burrow when going ling bling, because it doesn't help much. You should open roaches if you want to incorporate burrow, because burrowed roaches heal very quickly. I recommend DRG's 10 roach rush, and then following it up with another wave of speed+burrow roaches off 2 bases. This shouldn't work vs reaper first though, because they'll be getting a free scout of your RW and bunker it up. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
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