EPT[!] The Pro Zerg Strategy Q/A - Page 12
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FinBenton
Finland870 Posts
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TrippSC2
United States209 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On May 28 2013 23:13 Liquid`Snute wrote: You'll have to play blindly and as safe as possible and develop your gamesense. Pay attention to his unit composition at different times and try to understand what he's doing. Let's say you see 2 hellions and he's pushing your creep. However, you don't see any more hellions being added to the ball. This means he could be switching into Hellbats, maybe Widow Mines. If you see hellions being added to the ball constantly, however, you know that the threat of Hellbats and Widow Mines is pushed further away. The more you lose to different attacks you'll learn what T/P can do and can't do at the different timings. Until then, you want to tailor general responses that can deal with everything. Example: Star Station, I scout a 1-gate expand into 3 gates in the front with my Zergling, but there's a zealot and a sentry walling off and I can't see anything else. Response: Drone up natural, make a bunch of lings around 6-minute mark (since it's good vs many variations of 1gate expand 3gate) and see if he's pushing out and with what composition. Then, let's say I see a probe guarded by a sentry moving out with 4 zealots, I don't want to attack directly into this since I only made 16 lings this game (greedy!), so I back off. However, since I only saw zealots and just 1 sentry, I can expect gas to have been invested into TECH (Dark Templar or Stargate), so I decide to put down spores just because I don't know what can come. This is just one example of how to think when working with limited information, hope it's useful. thanks! helps a lot!  | ||
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Channel56k
United States413 Posts
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but most maps allow for an overlord to scout (on some 4player if scouted first) the builds: Hatch first, 15 pool hatch, no hatch. Earlier pool builds will be scouted either by lings under the OV or an OV flyin. So, this is difficult for me to word clearly, but what is something that when scouted generates a direct reaction of "I can punish that". As far as I know there is no way to punish hatch-first without punishing it blindly. What sorts of other things do you see that trigger a possible "all-in" punishment? | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I'm having quite a lot of troubles vs a Protoss who is not FFE, and going 1 gate expand-ish style of play. I know it should (in theory) grant them less of a good economy as long as I defend their pressure well, but I always mess up because I can't figure out a solid/safe build order that still is greedy enough to bring me to the mid-game without dropping behind. As well as on big maps, I don't know exactly what to do: should I drone scout, do my "classic" BO and take a gas if I see he is gate-expanding? Should I take a 3rd, or cancel the one which may be already building? What timings should I be scared of and how not to overcommit into early defense? I wonder if pros are using something somewhat standard by know or if they have not figured out the best safe opening yet. Thank you a lot for your help, it is much appreciated. | ||
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fiestamaan
2 Posts
1) In ZvT if you don't see an early reaper is that a sign that they are going bio? 2) Since I'm in such a low league I feel that timings are generally shifted/delayed outside of say the 5-7min mark. Is this just me or is there a sort of "buffer" time frame I can build in for when I am scouting? 3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better? | ||
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Thesper
United Kingdom37 Posts
On May 29 2013 20:28 fiestamaan wrote: Hey guys, Mid gold here. Firstly, thanks for making this thread :D and I have a few questions 1) In ZvT if you don't see an early reaper is that a sign that they are going bio? 2) Since I'm in such a low league I feel that timings are generally shifted/delayed outside of say the 5-7min mark. Is this just me or is there a sort of "buffer" time frame I can build in for when I am scouting? 3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better? 1. No. They could be doing anything. They're probably going bio though, most people do. 2. Timings in general are less useful to scout for because, as you said, they may come at very different times to what you expect. Just focus on scouting what tech and production facilities your opponent has, and how many bases they have, to know what they could throw at you and react to that. For example, if you scout he's on 2 bases and you have 3 bases with good drone saturation on each base, focus on making units, if he takes a 3rd, make more drones and think about taking a 4th. Or, if you scout lots of barracks with reactors on, make sure you have at least some banelings already morphed, that sort of thing. 3. Baneling nest first is fine and at gold league is probably optimal. If your opponent scouts it and reacts to it they can safely drone up more and your own scouting with speedlings is delayed. But these are really small issues compared to the advantage in safety it gives you. | ||
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Darkthorn
Romania912 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On May 30 2013 05:44 Darkthorn wrote: How do you properly deal with 1 gate expand? Because at least to me it seems that they can do a timing/all in/pressure at the most random timings off either 4 gate, 8 gate, 7 gate robo, and a lot of various combinations that hit fairly hard. 1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other. When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it. The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well. Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss. A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage. This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd. | ||
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Darkthorn
Romania912 Posts
On May 30 2013 06:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: 1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other. When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it. The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well. Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss. A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage. This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd. I usually either overdrone or underdrone...it feels like 1 gate expanding takes me off my game for some reason...would you be willing to provide some replays? Also what do you transition into once the game stabilises, is it roach hydra, swarmhost, mutas the ling ups into ultra? Thanks for the help thus far. Edit: Forgot to say...most people don't get any sentries or just 1-2 when going for 1 gate...but how do you deal with it when they go for @ 6-7 sentries...that's what's troubling me most. | ||
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Axieoqu
Finland204 Posts
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Channel56k
United States413 Posts
ZvZ seems to be the most responsive matchup in this way; if one of these players could go into a little detail on how they feel about it and how they play it, that would be great. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2013 09:48 konicki wrote: Would be nice if someone could talk a little bit about their decision making in ZvZ. It seems that a lot of the high profile/High talent players i watch stream make all-in decisions on a whim based off of some key thing they scout. ZvZ seems to be the most responsive matchup in this way; if one of these players could go into a little detail on how they feel about it and how they play it, that would be great. Well some key things to give you that "oh I should all in" would be say you scout double evo or single evo no baneling nest. Ling/bane all in will kill him. If you scout no baneling nest would be another indicator to just do it. Honestly right now 99.9% of my games are all ins in zvz, if I don't do an all in my opponent does and if I decide to do an all in, so does my opponent. On May 30 2013 14:51 Axieoqu wrote: How close to a nexus can a overlord scout while being sure you can escape without dying to the nexus cannon? Or is it usually worh sacking the lord anyways? Uh no toss player I have ever seen/heard of uses nexus cannon when an overlord is going inside the base. It's not worth the energy as say you do a roach/ling all in, well he won't have nexus cannon if he used it to kill a single overlord. An overlord can get within 13 range of a nexus with nexus cannon when it gets hit (it's as long as siege range which I believe is 13?). | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
In my opinion, 100 minerals to know exactly what Protoss is going to throw at you, is always worth it, so always sack that Overlord. Or make an Overseer, he might be able to get out in time. Of course I'll stop there, I don't have dat blue background. Just wanted to point out that scouting Protoss's base as Zerg is definitely pretty damn important. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
going muta straight up killed me, even if i did no upgrades. roach bane maybe? but that leaves us with a very bad composition if T just moves back. hellbat healing is literally the most stupid thing blizz ever did to starcraft... any idea how to defend the push and not be behind afterwards? | ||
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darkphantom
98 Posts
How do u play vs mech in ZvT ?? What unit composition should u use how to deny his bases etc ? every time i play vs mech i start falling completely apart in Macro and building up so much money without knowing what to get and just getting every drone massacred with Hellions TT | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
here's the shortened versions first (more context/info below): - How do you deal with planetaries in ZvT? - How do you handle/micro against VR with zealot support when going roach-hydra in ZvP? Specifically talking about when he's at your base and pops VR charge. - What is the best way to deal with HT that are protecting colossi from vipers? ZvT planetaries: I am wondering how you pros handle planetaries at the terran fourth, whether playing muta-ling-bane or roach-hydra. specifically, the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock bases on neo planet s seem to be strong planetary spots. in wol, I used to send in banes around the back of the minerals to kill scvs, but widow mines tend to shut that down without the terran needing to change a thing. I can't seem to pressure that base because when i push forward to target the planetary, the terran will swing up from the main path and have me half flanked, so I take a lot of losses as i retreat, and i still don't kill the planetary. i have taken to just waiting for ultras before I try to break it, but i'd like to hear your thoughts. ZvP: what do you guys do about VR charge, e.g. against VRs with zealot support? run away until it wears off, letting a base die if necessary? too often the smaller amount of roaches I have in hots will melt to the a-moved VRs and then the hydras start taking zealot damage. should i pull queens and put them in front? currently I just kite the zealots and try to bait the VRs forward enough to focus them down as the bulk of my hydras, but this still results in losing the roaches and then having zealots on hydras during the engagement. one more ZvP thing: what is your preferred way of managing the HT vs viper dance? is it worth it to abduct HT? this is assuming hydra-SH-viper against heavy colossi (4+). Thanks in advance. The past few pages of answers have been really useful. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On May 30 2013 06:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: 1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other. When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it. The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well. Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss. A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage. This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd. ty for your thought process here. Question however, When you choose to go down the fast third route. What direction do you like to go down? double evo roach ling into late game? quick spire? corruptor sh? | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On May 29 2013 20:28 fiestamaan wrote: personally, I take a baneling nest before speed depending on what I scout. if they're going for gas before expand I'll go for baneling nest first. if they do standard 15 hatch or 15 pool into hatch I'll take speed first. 3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 01 2013 05:02 Decendos wrote: which composition do you go for vs MMM + hellbats + mines? lots of T go for this comp, attack and get a 3rd behind the push while still getting upgrades... going muta straight up killed me, even if i did no upgrades. roach bane maybe? but that leaves us with a very bad composition if T just moves back. hellbat healing is literally the most stupid thing blizz ever did to starcraft... any idea how to defend the push and not be behind afterwards? There are a couple things you can do. What I am finding most effective against MMM + hellbats is muta/ling/bane/roach. I find it a lot easier to engage and kill a terran bioball + hellbats with that composition then muta/ling/bane alone. If you want to do the muta/ling/bane way you have to make a ton of banelings, more then you usually would versus bio/mine. If it's a pre-muta timing roach/ling/bane will hold it even when you go double upgrades. On June 01 2013 05:07 darkphantom wrote: Hi How do u play vs mech in ZvT ?? What unit composition should u use how to deny his bases etc ? every time i play vs mech i start falling completely apart in Macro and building up so much money without knowing what to get and just getting every drone massacred with Hellions TT Versus mech you should be going swarmhost/roach/hydra and decently fast hive (start it at like 12-13 minutes latest) and get vipers. Roach/hydra/swarmhost/viper and then eventually ultra/hydra/viper/swarmhost if it goes on that long. Swarmhosts are so so so good versus mech it's awesome | ||
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