On March 08 2013 20:01 kaluro wrote: This one is related to HotS.
On WoL I am a mid-masters player (top 25) on both EU as NA, with a ZvT winrate of 56%. On HotS, I got stuck at top diamond (top 3) with a 32% ZvT winrate.
The MMM + hellbat/mines outright kill me. I can't possibly engage their MMM ball with ling/bling(/roach) and maybe some infestors, since the mines will go off and the hellbats take good care of lings.
I can't set the mines off prematurely with single lings, as the MMM ball is slightly in front of it and will snipe down any lone lings that try to set them off.
If I engage the MMM ball, they would retreat back to the mines, forcing me to fall back. The thing is, I will have taken casualties, he will have taken none.
They would take around 5-7 mines along and just plant them down, and slightly advance with their MMMhellbats.
I am a big fan of the two base 4 queen (no gas) opener, taking 1 gas at 5 min, and 3 more at 6 min. Going double melee upgrades ling/bling into ling/bling/infestor into ling/bling/ultra/infestor. I sometimes go a few roaches as well to fend off some earlier hellbat/helllion (drop pressure).
I keep my money low and my injects spot on, the problem really lies in the engagements. I just can't seem to find a proper engagement tactic, or possibly a composition that would work.
I could try going a bit more roach heavy with hydra support, adding in vipers for blinding cloud later, but I am not too sure of that. And because of the nature of the ZvT MMM gameplay, I find swarm hosts to be ineffective, as they will just start to exploit the immobility and their mobility.
Any insight would be great! I'm also an ex-warcraft III player so if the tactics consist of good 3-control group control, no problem :-)!!
In my experience ling-bane-muta can hold this composition effectively, however it's very positioning and micro dependant. If you get forced into engaging from one angle in a choke it will be a very sad day for your banelings .
A safer option would be roach-speedbane. The general rule with engaging widow mines is that flanking is super important. Flanking was a great aid in WoL but because of widow mines it is now crucial in HotS. If you ensure you have overseers with each flank and spread your units you can a-move just like in WoL. The only real difference in control is manually grabbing the front lings from your force/forces and telling them to move right through or past your opponents force, hence pulling widow-mine shots away from the rest of your units.
So as long as you spread, flank and always have speed-overseers with your army you will be prepared for battle. Practice your ling micro to protect the bulk of your force and you will clean up these armies very effectively
Note: Hyun has been going roach-hydra-viper a lot on stream and has a crazy win-rate, so this could work too, though I doubt its effectiveness against turtling marine-tank players.
Is it worth it to research defense upgrades as zerg when you play vs mech ?
- I always make only the first upgrade (because I start it in my standard ZvT opening) but I think it's better to keep the 525/525 for units. From what I know and understand, all units will die in the same amount of tank shot or thor shot.. or am I wrong ?
Please if you have an opinion/answer, explain it clearly with facts, not ideas.
On March 08 2013 22:13 E.L.V.I.S wrote: Is it worth it to research defense upgrades as zerg when you play vs mech ?
- I always make only the first upgrade (because I start it in my standard ZvT opening) but I think it's better to keep the 525/525 for units. From what I know and understand, all units will die in the same amount of tank shot or thor shot.. or am I wrong ?
Please if you have an opinion/answer, explain it clearly with facts, not ideas.
Hey Antoine, I'd like to hear others opinions on this one myself.
Personally I do the same as you I swap to a focus on +ranged +melee and only add more carapace if the game progresses very far, for the same reason you stated. I think there's so much redundant damage from tank splash/thor shots that it doesn't make a major difference.
On March 09 2013 03:38 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: What is ideal lategame zerg composition versus :
1) a terran mech army with heavy raven support
2) (this one with reference to HotS) a primarily skytoss with a few collossi and templars in the mix.
1. I would go swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper it's very strong vs mech in general even verse heavy raven.
2. The best composition to fight that composition is swarmhost/hydra/ultra with a few vipers possibly but I normally do it without vipers cause I feel scared to make vipers when templar are on the field xD. No joke I have had pretty good success with this unit compositions and I don't think any other composition has a chance to kill that army.
On March 09 2013 03:38 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: What is ideal lategame zerg composition versus :
1) a terran mech army with heavy raven support
2) (this one with reference to HotS) a primarily skytoss with a few collossi and templars in the mix.
1. I would go swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper it's very strong vs mech in general even verse heavy raven.
2. The best composition to fight that composition is swarmhost/hydra/ultra with a few vipers possibly but I normally do it without vipers cause I feel scared to make vipers when templar are on the field xD. No joke I have had pretty good success with this unit compositions and I don't think any other composition has a chance to kill that army.
to the 2nd point:
queen, infestor, ultra, corruptor with 230/200 supply also stands a chance in terms of trading halfway cost efficient. although i feel vs both comps 5 immortals mixed in own it very hard ^^
First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
Generally, unless you're looking to hit a speed timing, always get double ups before lair. Suppy is correct here- to be safe, it is advisable to put 1 spore per mineral line (for detection versus Mines + ability to kill medivac).
The main question is when to get Hive honestly. Vipers are key for your defense, and if you can get them out before the terran's 2/2/1 (+2/+2 on bio, +1 for tanks) timing you'll be in a very good position in the game. Generally, try to time y our hive after hydra production has started - Just note that you will have to delay the terran while you get 3/3 and vipers.
In ZvP if P goes for pylon block(s) while going for nexus first instead of forge first, what is the proper response? This is for both WoL and HotS (if they are different).
I usually see pros go for forge first then pylon block so they can hold off any counters, not get delayed in tech, etc. However, I think that on larger rush distance maps (certainly for the current HotS map pool) it might be possible for Protoss to pylon block AND nexus first safely putting Zerg in an awkward position (do I counter or just take the economic hit?).
Assuming the optimal/safe thing to do as Protoss is to forge first when pylon blocking (letting it finish), how can I punish a Protoss that plays "too greedy" and nexus firsts while pylon blocking? Also, does the nexus timing matter in this (15 vs. 17, etc.)?
Also, what changes if they double block or gate block on top of a pylon block? I've seen the game on IPL5 Round 1 ToD vs. viOLet where ToD goes nexus first while pylon/gate blocking viOLet's natural and viOLet goes for a counter and manages to delay ToD significantly. I'm not sure what ToD was expecting (viOLet would scout that it was a nexus first as he was deciding to make additional lings or not vs. the pylon block) but on a map with a larger distance I think his wall would have completed in time to deny the lings entry into the nat.
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
Thank you Suppy, and Thank you Glon. for your time! :D I shall re-adjust my build for 2//2, with hydra ----> hive
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
On March 11 2013 06:19 Xardov wrote: Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
I would very much want to know the answer to this a well !
On March 11 2013 06:19 Xardov wrote: Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
You really just need to experiment and find out for yourself what works! What I did was look at my favorite players in BW (I think I copied mostly from Savior) and started to use his, but all you need is to find out what works for you.
Just for reference, these are my hotkeys organized somewhat chronologically: 1 = scouting drone // main army 2 = first scouting overlord // creep spreading queens // mutalisks // spellcasters (most people have mutalisks on hotkey 1 though it seems) 3 = first queen // spellcasters 4 = second queen // air army (broodlord, corrupter) 5 = all hatches 6 = natural hatch 7 = third hatch 0 = miscellaneous, often scouting overseers
F1 = main F2 = natural F3 = third F4 = fourth
And I use F-key hotkeys to inject. I find it to be the most reliable way to inject. Another popular method is the tab method where it returns to your nearest base, and you have all your queens on one hotkey. That method can be unreliable though if you mess it up, as all your queens will start running everywhere. But people who do use it are used to it that it seems fine as well. Again it's really up to you to determine what methods fit you best!
I noticed this trend among P players that they usually dont scout or scout late with their probe. When I dont see probe normal timing I assume its gateway expand and go hatch, pool opener. Is this trend something you can confirm? and is it even safe to assume such thing? Would you assume and do something like this in your games?
I've seen a lot of people eschew baneling nest in favour of a gasless queen opening in ZvZ into roach. With the more powerful muta midgame coming in HotS I am thinking this style would be a better one to learn. What is the best and safest style to use/walloff to use? I am assuming that I can take a third with absolute impunity vs a ling/bane from my opponent once I have a handful of roaches and a spine out? What timing should I use for double gas in main (have been thinking around 5.00, 100 gas into Lair then spire, roach speed)?
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
is there a replay of this scenario gasless zvz opener were opponent takes a fast third?
my question for the thread is in what's the best way to use swarm hosts? Should they be staggered? How staggered should they be? What scenarios should they be used for in each match up?
also how do you properly deal with early reapers in hots?
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
is there a replay of this scenario gasless zvz opener were opponent takes a fast third?
my question for the thread is in what's the best way to use swarm hosts? Should they be staggered? How staggered should they be? What scenarios should they be used for in each match up?
also how do you properly deal with early reapers in hots?
I won't comment on the gasless zvz.
For swarmhosts the best way I have found to use them is when letting loose a wave of locusts at the enemy, be prepared to unburrow and run away. If you see him starting to push up as he's killing your locusts, you should be running swarmhosts back. Do not keep them burrowed. Moving them all the time is good to so that say you let loose a few waves at a protosses 3rd, then you switch to his natural. Keeps him guessing and having to reposition his army.
Zvp imo their just a great all around unit. Zerg verse Terran their better versus mech then they are against bio. Bio is hard because it's really easy to punish swarmhosts where as mech is kind of like the protoss army, it's slow and not as mobile so you have time to run the swarmhosts away.
They are not good in zvz from my many, many tests. The one way I haven't tested is if you are facing a roach/hydra/infestor player and you do turtle spine + swarmhost into ultra instead of doing roach/hydra/infestor yourself or muta/ling/bane into ultra.
Early reapers you need to get lings out as soon as possible, if the reaper enters the base before lings are out pull a few drones and pull back the weakened ones. Make weak ones into gas guysers if you have to and once lings are out your queens should almost be out and then you should be getting speedlings so you can regain map control.
Hey guys I'm a masters Zerg in WOL. I have major trouble in the ZvP matchup in general (being safe against gateway all ins and then super late game) Any suggestions for someone that hates infestors? I have tried both ling bane muta and bane rain and both are difficult to pull off. Any safe and fun style without the use of heavy infestor or roach play? Thanks
EPT
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