• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:52
CEST 01:52
KST 08:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy6uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event14Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple5SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Lambo Talks: The Future of SC2 and more... uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event
Tourneys
Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) ByuN vs TaeJa Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
New season has just come in ladder BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September StarCraft player reflex TE scores BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Simultaneous Streaming by CasterMuse
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Bitcoin discussion thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 520 users

Is Algebra Necessary?

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 44 45 46 Next All
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:18:47
July 29 2012 05:54 GMT
#1
An article from today's NYTimes.

Please read the whole article before replying.

A TYPICAL American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with algebra. In both high school and college, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I’ve found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn’t.

My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus. State regents and legislators — and much of the public — take it as self-evident that every young person should be made to master polynomial functions and parametric equations.

There are many defenses of algebra and the virtue of learning it. Most of them sound reasonable on first hearing; many of them I once accepted. But the more I examine them, the clearer it seems that they are largely or wholly wrong — unsupported by research or evidence, or based on wishful logic. (I’m not talking about quantitative skills, critical for informed citizenship and personal finance, but a very different ballgame.)

This debate matters. Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower. I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers. My aim is not to spare students from a difficult subject, but to call attention to the real problems we are causing by misdirecting precious resources.

The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.

Shirley Bagwell, a longtime Tennessee teacher, warns that “to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia.

Algebra is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white. In New Mexico, 43 percent of white students fell below “proficient,” along with 39 percent in Tennessee. Even well-endowed schools have otherwise talented students who are impeded by algebra, to say nothing of calculus and trigonometry.

California’s two university systems, for instance, consider applications only from students who have taken three years of mathematics and in that way exclude many applicants who might excel in fields like art or history. Community college students face an equally prohibitive mathematics wall. A study of two-year schools found that fewer than a quarter of their entrants passed the algebra classes they were required to take.

“There are students taking these courses three, four, five times,” says Barbara Bonham of Appalachian State University. While some ultimately pass, she adds, “many drop out.”

Another dropout statistic should cause equal chagrin. Of all who embark on higher education, only 58 percent end up with bachelor’s degrees. The main impediment to graduation: freshman math. The City University of New York, where I have taught since 1971, found that 57 percent of its students didn’t pass its mandated algebra course. The depressing conclusion of a faculty report: “failing math at all levels affects retention more than any other academic factor.” A national sample of transcripts found mathematics had twice as many F’s and D’s compared as other subjects.

Nor will just passing grades suffice. Many colleges seek to raise their status by setting a high mathematics bar. Hence, they look for 700 on the math section of the SAT, a height attained in 2009 by only 9 percent of men and 4 percent of women. And it’s not just Ivy League colleges that do this: at schools like Vanderbilt, Rice and Washington University in St. Louis, applicants had best be legacies or athletes if they have scored less than 700 on their math SATs.

It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.

Nor is it clear that the math we learn in the classroom has any relation to the quantitative reasoning we need on the job. John P. Smith III, an educational psychologist at Michigan State University who has studied math education, has found that “mathematical reasoning in workplaces differs markedly from the algorithms taught in school.” Even in jobs that rely on so-called STEM credentials — science, technology, engineering, math — considerable training occurs after hiring, including the kinds of computations that will be required. Toyota, for example, recently chose to locate a plant in a remote Mississippi county, even though its schools are far from stellar. It works with a nearby community college, which has tailored classes in “machine tool mathematics.”

That sort of collaboration has long undergirded German apprenticeship programs. I fully concur that high-tech knowledge is needed to sustain an advanced industrial economy. But we’re deluding ourselves if we believe the solution is largely academic.

A skeptic might argue that, even if our current mathematics education discourages large numbers of students, math itself isn’t to blame. Isn’t this discipline a critical part of education, providing quantitative tools and honing conceptual abilities that are indispensable — especially in our high tech age? In fact, we hear it argued that we have a shortage of graduates with STEM credentials.

Of course, people should learn basic numerical skills: decimals, ratios and estimating, sharpened by a good grounding in arithmetic. But a definitive analysis by the Georgetown Center on Education and the Workforce forecasts that in the decade ahead a mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above. And if there is a shortage of STEM graduates, an equally crucial issue is how many available positions there are for men and women with these skills. A January 2012 analysis from the Georgetown center found 7.5 percent unemployment for engineering graduates and 8.2 percent among computer scientists.

Peter Braunfeld of the University of Illinois tells his students, “Our civilization would collapse without mathematics.” He’s absolutely right.

Algebraic algorithms underpin animated movies, investment strategies and airline ticket prices. And we need people to understand how those things work and to advance our frontiers.

Quantitative literacy clearly is useful in weighing all manner of public policies, from the Affordable Care Act, to the costs and benefits of environmental regulation, to the impact of climate change. Being able to detect and identify ideology at work behind the numbers is of obvious use. Ours is fast becoming a statistical age, which raises the bar for informed citizenship. What is needed is not textbook formulas but greater understanding of where various numbers come from, and what they actually convey.

What of the claim that mathematics sharpens our minds and makes us more intellectually adept as individuals and a citizen body? It’s true that mathematics requires mental exertion. But there’s no evidence that being able to prove (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis.

Many of those who struggled through a traditional math regimen feel that doing so annealed their character. This may or may not speak to the fact that institutions and occupations often install prerequisites just to look rigorous — hardly a rational justification for maintaining so many mathematics mandates. Certification programs for veterinary technicians require algebra, although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status.

It’s not hard to understand why Caltech and M.I.T. want everyone to be proficient in mathematics. But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar. Demanding algebra across the board actually skews a student body, not necessarily for the better.

I WANT to end on a positive note. Mathematics, both pure and applied, is integral to our civilization, whether the realm is aesthetic or electronic. But for most adults, it is more feared or revered than understood. It’s clear that requiring algebra for everyone has not increased our appreciation of a calling someone once called “the poetry of the universe.” (How many college graduates remember what Fermat’s dilemma was all about?)

Instead of investing so much of our academic energy in a subject that blocks further attainment for much of our population, I propose that we start thinking about alternatives. Thus mathematics teachers at every level could create exciting courses in what I call “citizen statistics.” This would not be a backdoor version of algebra, as in the Advanced Placement syllabus. Nor would it focus on equations used by scholars when they write for one another. Instead, it would familiarize students with the kinds of numbers that describe and delineate our personal and public lives.

It could, for example, teach students how the Consumer Price Index is computed, what is included and how each item in the index is weighted — and include discussion about which items should be included and what weights they should be given.

This need not involve dumbing down. Researching the reliability of numbers can be as demanding as geometry. More and more colleges are requiring courses in “quantitative reasoning.” In fact, we should be starting that in kindergarten.

I hope that mathematics departments can also create courses in the history and philosophy of their discipline, as well as its applications in early cultures. Why not mathematics in art and music — even poetry — along with its role in assorted sciences? The aim would be to treat mathematics as a liberal art, making it as accessible and welcoming as sculpture or ballet. If we rethink how the discipline is conceived, word will get around and math enrollments are bound to rise. It can only help. Of the 1.7 million bachelor’s degrees awarded in 2010, only 15,396 — less than 1 percent — were in mathematics.

I’ve observed a host of high school and college classes, from Michigan to Mississippi, and have been impressed by conscientious teaching and dutiful students. I’ll grant that with an outpouring of resources, we could reclaim many dropouts and help them get through quadratic equations. But that would misuse teaching talent and student effort. It would be far better to reduce, not expand, the mathematics we ask young people to imbibe. (That said, I do not advocate vocational tracks for students considered, almost always unfairly, as less studious.)

Yes, young people should learn to read and write and do long division, whether they want to or not. But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions. Think of math as a huge boulder we make everyone pull, without assessing what all this pain achieves. So why require it, without alternatives or exceptions? Thus far I haven’t found a compelling answer.

Andrew Hacker is an emeritus professor of political science at Queens College, City University of New York, and a co-author of “Higher Education? How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids — and What We Can Do About It.”

The article asks whether or not teaching algebra is needed and whether its worthwhile given the high amounts of drop-outs associated to failing algebra.

As a mathematician, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the article, in that some people need to know algebra (I need to know algebra), but not everyone does. Not everyone will be a mathematician, statistician, engineer, scientist, economist, etc, and unless you're doing these types of jobs you don't need to know algebra. In fact, most of these professions require knowledge about computer coding more than algebra. These types of jobs also demand a good understanding of the subject matter and being proficient in algebra or calculus or math in general is essential to developing this knowledge

But obviously we cant stop teaching algebra given that it is essential that at least some people in society know algebra and math. One of the complaints in the article is that many universities use math results as an entrance criteria even for subjects that are not related to math. This obviously needs to change, but since it is necessary to teach math and algebra, and as long as most people find it hard (really, it's not hard in high school), I don't see the practice changing even though it should.

I don't think the article's example of teaching how the CPI works is a good one. Understanding the CPI requires algebra, and understanding how it changes when it's parts changes, also requires algebra. Nor do I think current math courses should be dumbed down to this level, particularly at the university level. University level math courses taught by the math faculty are for mathematicians. Math courses should be about math, i.e. algebra, analysis, geometry, etc. taught rigorously and mathematically. Instead, students should not be required to learn math if they don't want to.

So, for all those smart people, that aren't mathematically inclined, what should be taught instead? Recently, Tim Gowers (who is a Fields medalist), suggests we teach people to be mathematically literate. He gives his thoughts and some examples of Fermi problems (these are a favorite at job interviews at top firms) and questions related to games and strategies to encourage thinking like a mathematician. You can read his experience with teaching such a math class here. I agree with Gowers.
Infernal_dream
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2359 Posts
July 29 2012 05:58 GMT
#2
On July 29 2012 14:54 paralleluniverse wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.htm?_r=1

The article asks whether or not teaching algebra is needed and whether its worthwhile given the high amounts of drop-outs associated to failing algebra.

As a mathematician, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the article, in that some people need to know algebra (I need to know algebra), but not everyone does. Not everyone will be a mathematician, statistician, engineer, scientist, economist, etc, and unless you're doing these types of jobs you don't need to know algebra. In fact, most of these professions require knowledge about computer coding more than algebra. These types of jobs also requires a good understanding of the subject matter and being proficient in algebra or calculus or math in general is essential to developing this knowledge

But obviously we cant stop teaching algebra given that it is essential that at least some people in society know algebra and math. One of the complaints in the article is that many universities use math results as an entrance criteria even for subjects that are not related to math. This obviously needs to change, but since it is necessary to teach math and algebra, and as long as most people find it hard (really, it's not hard in high school), I don't see the practice changing even though it should.

I don't think the article's example of teaching how the CPI works is a good one. Understanding the CPI requires algebra, and understanding how it changes when it's parts changes, also requires algebra.

So for all those smart people, that aren't mathematically inclined, what should be taught instead? Recently, Tim Gowers (who is a Fields medalist), suggests we teach people to be mathematically literate. He gives http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/how-should-mathematics-be-taught-to-non-mathematicians/]examples of Fermi problems (these are a favorite at job interviews at top firms) and questions relating to games and strategy to encourage thinking like a mathematician. You can read his experience with teaching such a math class http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/a-trip-to-watford-grammar-school-for-boys/]here.
[/url][/url]

I don't need to know history to do most jobs. Should people still learn it? Obviously yes. Honestly basic algebra isn't hard. I'm not the greatest at math but it was fairly simple. If it was something like trigonometry then sure, but if you can't learn algebra you probably can't learn a lot of things or apply yourself enough to figure it out.
RodrigoX
Profile Joined November 2009
United States645 Posts
July 29 2012 05:58 GMT
#3
Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.

Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.
We were all raised on televion that made us believe we'd all be Millionairs, Movie gods, and Rockstars..... But we won't.... We are slowly learning that fact. And we are very, very pissed off.
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9154 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:00:00
July 29 2012 05:59 GMT
#4
The solution to failing math scores in school is not to give up the curriculum, it is to improve teaching in schools to the point where students are prepared to learn algebra when they encounter it at school. Giving up the curriculum will tank the country's already down-trending competitiveness in the global market.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
Artifice
Profile Joined May 2010
United States523 Posts
July 29 2012 06:00 GMT
#5
I mean, highschool algebra is really fucking easy, so whether or not it is necessary, it's pretty sad that a big chunk of dropouts are related to it.
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:05:29
July 29 2012 06:03 GMT
#6
People failing Algebra math have never heard of Wolfram Alpha.
TehPrime
Profile Joined February 2012
United States180 Posts
July 29 2012 06:03 GMT
#7
I don't mind algebra.

But calculus is a different story.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:08:21
July 29 2012 06:04 GMT
#8
Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
Seiferz
Profile Joined May 2011
United States640 Posts
July 29 2012 06:07 GMT
#9
This is funny to me because I absolutely hate algebra. I finished up Diff Eq last semester and the only part I hated about it (and cal 3) was all the algebra you had to do after you set everything up.

If you're not interested in a career that uses any math at all, then I don't really see the point in learning it. I agree about the Fermi problems though. The logic and thinking skills must be gained somehow. It's just that no one's going to risk not taking algebra in favor of something like fermi problems and getting screwed later on when you may have to do algebra.

I do agree with using math as a measure for university's though. Even if you're terrible at math, the tests they usually give are absurdly easy. And they're typically online, with a calculator, and with plenty of time. There really isn't an excuse for doing poorly even if you're a "bright student that isn't mathematically inclined". If you bomb a test of basic algebra some places aren't going to let you take entry level physics, and I think that is completely fine. I've never heard of them excluding non-math classes from a math entrance test though.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
July 29 2012 06:08 GMT
#10
I see algebra as a simple problem-solving technique that mathematicians use to guide someone with no knowledge of higher math into learning how to solve said problems. Honestly, one probably needs to have growth in their intelligence, and learning something new (like algebra) expands the ability to learn new concepts and understand semi-intelligent problem-solving using numbers, and my favorite in high school - WORD PROBLEMS - make math pretty enjoyable in my opinion.

To say someone doesn't need to learn something is horseshit. The United States educational system has become rather lazy and it's translating into the growing youth. I graduated 3 years ago, and I would say that it was fairly easy to get through high school as it is, and I really did not put much of an effort (though I was naturally pretty good at memorizing and test taking). I would say that my classmates were fairly below average at that point (half of a 200 person class (small school) didn't pursue higher education. It's because the US school systems aren't allowing students to engage in learning, and they just breeze through and don't bother with college. Claiming that a subject is necessary to learn or not is not the sort of thing that should be argued, because people have been learning algebra for centuries, during times when our educational system was the tops. But now, with lazy students and even lazier teachers and boards of education, things are worsening for us.

I am honestly scared for the future.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
Infernal_dream
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2359 Posts
July 29 2012 06:09 GMT
#11
On July 29 2012 15:07 Seiferz wrote:
This is funny to me because I absolutely hate algebra. I finished up Diff Eq last semester and the only part I hated about it (and cal 3) was all the algebra you had to do after you set everything up.

If you're not interested in a career that uses any math at all, then I don't really see the point in learning it. I agree about the Fermi problems though. The logic and thinking skills must be gained somehow. It's just that no one's going to risk not taking algebra in favor of something like fermi problems and getting screwed later on when you may have to do algebra.

I do agree with using math as a measure for university's though. Even if you're terrible at math, the tests they usually give are absurdly easy. And they're typically online, with a calculator, and with plenty of time. There really isn't an excuse for doing poorly even if you're a "bright student that isn't mathematically inclined". If you bomb a test of basic algebra some places aren't going to let you take entry level physics, and I think that is completely fine. I've never heard of them excluding non-math classes from a math entrance test though.


You never know what you're going to do in life. Just because you want to do something as a career doesn't mean you'll end up there. Just because you don't think you're going to need it doesn't mean you wont. The more general your knowledge the better off you are. A lot of people who get majors don't even have careers in the field they majored in. We learn about worthless garbage that will literally never help us everyday, why not learn something useful in the chance that it will help us.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:19:36
July 29 2012 06:11 GMT
#12
Heard learning to set budgets is a useful skill to have in the real world. Also heard Algebra helps people with that life skill.
In all honesty, this reflects more on the state of the education system than the state of the kids trying to get an education. It is what it is.

Edit:

And for the people saying calculus is worthless....just keep in mind that life doesn't always goes as you planned. Classes you thought that were completely useless when you took them may help you get a job directly or indirectly later down the road. Circumstances change and you really rather be prepared sooner rather than later. One of the best ways to get ahead in life is to mix and match seemingly unrelated fields that may become an emerging field in the future. Just look at bioengineering, all the biologists who took classes like upper level math are suddenly ahead of their colleagues, same applies to the engineers.
Get it by your hands...
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:13:17
July 29 2012 06:12 GMT
#13
Standards must be incredibly different in various states. I despise Math and it's easily my worst area of study, but Algebra was a joke. Either my schools teaches an incredibly remedial form, or there's a deeper problem here.
..Now, I would certainly agree with this sentiment in regards to Calculus, or even anything beyond basic Trigonometry. THAT stuff is useless for 95% of professions and deserves to be readjusted for elective/non-mandatory status.

edit: Also, I don't know many people who have their mind made up in 9th grade (when Algebra is usually taught) as to what they want to do with their lives.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Le French
Profile Joined December 2011
France782 Posts
July 29 2012 06:13 GMT
#14
I love the sound of the word "algebra". It is etymologically arabic right? It is so different from words like equation, calculus, integral, etc. Having said that, I suck at math, but don't mind learning a thing or two.
Ca va?
Solidarity
Profile Joined September 2011
United States78 Posts
July 29 2012 06:13 GMT
#15
This article explores the issue constantly in discussion in American schools. Why do students need to learn "x"? When will they ever use it? Are the skills even necessary to pass the course applicable in life?

Sure, a lot of people will never utilize algebra again in their lives. A lot of people will never use history again in their lives, and maybe a person will never open a novel ever again, and English class was a waste of their time. Should we restrict our curriculum to occupational knowledge because these subjects are "useless" and too hard for our students to learn? That's really the fundamental question at play here. My opinion is that your mind is your best tool, and learning every possible thing you can only serves to sharpen it. Many of my best friends didn't care for math (or anything) in high school, but when they got to college, computer science was their choice of major. If our school's curricula didn't demand math of us, and they decided it was worthless and weren't going to take it, their career trajectory would look very different. Of course, we're just talking algebra here, but whose to say what subject isn't next on the chopping block to protect our dropout rates?
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
July 29 2012 06:14 GMT
#16
The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.

On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:15:45
July 29 2012 06:15 GMT
#17
On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote:
Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.

Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.

I use algebra daily too, but seriously, how many people do you think need to know algebra? The article cites some source which places it at 5%.

I'm not saying to stop teaching algebra and I don't think that's what the article says. In fact, the article agrees that society would collapse without math, but 5% of people need to use algebra means that 95% of people don't.

And I have no wish to force it upon them.
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 06:21:22
July 29 2012 06:16 GMT
#18
"Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it."

Ridiculous logic. As an educator I find this article incredulous. My job is not necessarily to teach my students such and such a subject, but to teach them how to think and how to learn. If you can't discipline yourself to pass algebra (there is a case to be made for not going much farther than that), then you are not ready for the real world. Algebra and most of geometry, while at times esoteric, have visible real world applications. Educational research also shows that n+1 learning increases mastery much better than n learning. That is to say, if you practice learning something that is just outside your complete grasp (ie: something that is a little bit hard for you), the things you do know are greatly strengthened. By learning algebra, your basic math skills are much, much stronger. So even if you forget all that algebra, your basic math will stay strong forever.

Something the article doesn't mention or talk about is how many kids pass who don't deserve it. I am definitely one to say that I'm not afraid to fail a student if they deserve it, but in most cases in most school districts, there is no incentive for a teacher to fail a student. It means extra conferences, paperwork, phone calls, and headaches. Many times the principals won't back up the teacher and they'll be accused of being unfair. At the end of the year students who deserve to fail get passed with Ds.

The article even points out that other countries that do better in math do better because of discipline rather than "just being smart." Well isn't that what we want for our students? The problem is not with the subject, and very rarely with the teaching methods or the teachers. More often than not the problems arise from a home/outside of school environment that is not conducive to learning.

I've heard a lot about how some kids just aren't good students. That's ok, and a truth I am more than willing to accept, but the reality is that just because you are not good at something doesn't mean you have to be bad at it.

Neil Degrasse Tyson - "You may never be the best at something, but you can always get better."
Push 2 Harder
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
July 29 2012 06:16 GMT
#19
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote:
The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.

On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.

Really?
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
July 29 2012 06:16 GMT
#20
Congrats to the author to finally discover that math, like any other subject, have areas which it cannot be applied too and thus has no real value for. What brilliance!
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
1 2 3 4 5 44 45 46 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft693
Nina 161
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 453
sSak 97
ggaemo 53
NaDa 45
HiyA 31
yabsab 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever481
PGG 120
NeuroSwarm104
Counter-Strike
fl0m1077
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox454
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby2400
Other Games
summit1g8416
Day[9].tv1039
shahzam870
C9.Mang0518
ViBE221
Maynarde131
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1148
BasetradeTV33
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH105
• Hupsaiya 71
• davetesta43
• RyuSc2 38
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV783
League of Legends
• Doublelift4788
Other Games
• Scarra1256
• Day9tv1039
Upcoming Events
OSC
8m
CranKy Ducklings1
The PondCast
10h 8m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
11h 8m
Replay Cast
1d
LiuLi Cup
1d 11h
BSL Team Wars
1d 19h
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
Online Event
2 days
SC Evo League
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
CSO Contender
2 days
[ Show More ]
[BSL 2025] Weekly
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Bonyth
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
4 days
RotterdaM Event
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Mini vs TBD
Soma vs sSak
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.