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I wanted to make some polls to see what other people thought about this.
From my POV, two children made a trivial mistake, and were faced with consequences that are life changing in the negative. All CocA wanted was a third game, he didn't throw the set, he just wanted more practice in a tournament that doesn't mean anything. I really think SlayerS handled this epicly wrong. Even GOMTV's post was more about the use of language, and not the actual incident.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Poll: Does CoCa Deserve What he got?No (913) 61% Yes (588) 39% 1501 total votes Your vote: Does CoCa Deserve What he got? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: What Should Happen?Ban From ESV for certain timeframe (517) 41% Team Should Punish As They See Fit (291) 23% Ban From GSL for certain timeframe (167) 13% Nothing Big, This Is Trivial (150) 12% KILL EM WITH FIRE! (96) 8% Different Punishment Altogether (28) 2% 1249 total votes Your vote: What Should Happen? (Vote): Ban From GSL for certain timeframe
(Vote): Ban From ESV for certain timeframe
(Vote): Different Punishment Altogether
(Vote): Nothing Big, This Is Trivial
(Vote): KILL EM WITH FIRE!
(Vote): Team Should Punish As They See Fit
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Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency. We can't move forward if our reactions to things are always far more extreme because of a big incident. People won't want to be involved with something that is void of humanity.
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Unfortunately for Coca though there really wasn't any other way to punish him. He was playing in Code S in like 3 days and if they did let him play then it would send the message that throwing games is okay. There really wasn't a punishment available besides not letting him play in Code S.
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It's not even remotely close to what happened to WhiteRa. It was a stupid mistake, and I doubt CocA really thought it through, but athletes should be aware that the integrity of their sport is essential to fan support. Except for wrestling I guess.
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Team has a right to handling their players as they see fit, especially with regards to how they represent the team and sponsors. Coca also has the right to leave if he feels he cannot function in that team culture, or if he is unwilling to bear the penalty.
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On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote:
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
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98 Posts
it sets a precedence of harsh punishment, which is a great deterrent imho. i dunno. i feel bad for coca, cuz i'm a fan. but i think he's good enough to recover and eventually get back into code S.
i reckon its a good move. abit harsh, but nothing else to be done really.
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Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
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He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers.
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On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
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On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
Because the teams are not their parents, and because we are discussing how wrong it is. 
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On November 17 2011 10:14 LesPhoques wrote:
He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers.
He didn't help his friend. He left so he could have 1 more game of practice. That is it. At no point did he leave that game because he wanted Byun to win the set.
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On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
The only reason they being so harsh is basically because of the public I think. They afraid of the public's perception of them so they being unfairly harsh. If this isn't wasn't as public like the majority of similar situations I doubt we seeing anything remotely like this. So I don't see why we can't judge them since we(The public) are the medium why which this has happened.
This also begs the question that if the act receives different punishment based on the publicity is it fair or right? Also the potentially hypocritical nature of all this. Look at GOMTV's response in which language is listed as an issue yet there are tons of instances of foul language in games with players that are/were in GSL.
All of this reeks of hasty media type responses.
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On November 17 2011 10:17 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:14 LesPhoques wrote:
He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers. He didn't help his friend. He left so he could have 1 more game of practice. That is it. At no point did he leave that game because he wanted Byun to win the set.
Having one more game is directly brought about by letting Byun win. If this were a legal matter, he would absolutely be held responsible as it was not a secondary effect.
On November 17 2011 10:16 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment. He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
I'd question this. Knocking someone into the B-team is one hell of a proven motivator for improving a player - and player management goes beyond Starcraft skill. It also includes professionalism and embodiment of team culture.
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On November 17 2011 10:18 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
The only reason they being so harsh is basically because of the public I think. They afraid of the public's perception of them so they being unfairly harsh. If this isn't wasn't as public like the majority of similar situations I doubt we seeing anything remotely like this. So I don't see why we can't judge them since we(The public) are the medium why which this has happened. This also begs the question that if the act receives different punishment based on the publicity is it fair or right?
Yes, you hit it spot on as i mentioned above. I really feel like everything that has happened is because Boxer is trying to save Face. I dont care what kind of manager you are, the talent you are raising, is more important than some nobody off the street who doesn't want to read into the matter and see that this isn't a SaVior like incident.
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Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT.
How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning. No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave.
It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line.
Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close.
The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case.
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On November 17 2011 10:10 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote:
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament
deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it
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It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
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You don't throw games in a tournament, period. If he needed more practice against Terran he should have been playing custom games with one of the million good terrans in the SlayerS house. I believe it was a dumb mistake and not intentional cheating, so they shouldn't be banned for life. But there was a GSL spot on the line, so temporarily banning them from the GSL is totally appropriate. They're lucky, they got off pretty easy.
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I used to be part of the Super Smash Brothers fighting game community, and used to participate, and do well in tournaments where money would be on the line. Sometimes thousands of dollars would be on the line in major tournaments. There has always been debate on match splitting (Where the top two placing competitors can agree to split the combined 1st and 2nd prize, and simply play an exhibition match to settle the official placements if the players are tired, or the venue needs to shut down, etc.
That being said, however the details differ quite a bit, there is still the issue of players fixing the match results, even if it is consensual. I believe that my example is without some of the criticism because it happens in the final match, so it's not like you are letting someone win (often teammates) whom you could normally beat, for instance, who might do better in a future matchup than you could.
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EPT
