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REPLAY PACKS HERE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146843
A 2 hour recording breaking things down as well:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9498080
Against Terran:
14 expand
14 gas
13 pool
right here is a choice between faster lair or faster ling speed. I would get ling speed if I'm still uncomfortable against those reapers.
make a queen at the expo hatch
early evo chamber for upgrades
Nab those infestors!
Strategy:
+ Show Spoiler +
Making a hatchery actually reduces the area you need to defend versus a reaper harass on certain maps (He was pointing this out earlier on his stream.) Also, with an extra hatch you don't need a queen right as you get the spawning pool since your first larva inject is normally wasted, or you put down a creep tumor instead.
The point is to be able to get to tier 2 FAST while still being able to properly defend against mass reaper/bio which is a prominent strategy. This opening allows a multitude of different styles of play, you can be super agressive with your tech and just not drone as hard (you will have 2 base gas income though, so you'll be able to keep up with your tech.) or you can do the sauron macro style zerg.
Basically, in the mid game your composition would change depending on what composition the terran goes after his reaper harass, or if he does a reaper harass at all, but infestors are key against bio and against hellions, which you can get extremely early.
If he doesn't reaper harass, you can basically dictate the game with your tech. Throwing up different tech structures that you MIGHT need really doesn't set you far behind, as knowing you can pop out a few banelings if he really wants to all in you with mass marines is a good thing to have.
Another advantage is that since you're going infestor for fungal growth against bio or mech, or air, is that you can immediately tech to tier 3 and use your mineral surplus you're likely to have make cracklings and ultralisks. Or you can just get really really fast upgrades and bash your opponent into submission.
The opening is micro intensive, and relies on your ability to micro zerglings against reapers. remember that creep is your friend and get that tier 2 asap! Avoid superfluous static defenses like the plague! Since you're teching to tier 2 you won't be hindered by the zerg early game!
Against Zerg:
14 gas
14 pool
Fast Evo Chamber (while queen building)
Building placement is important, spawning pool, evo chamber, and baneling nest wall off a side of the hatch to prevent baneling shenanigans.
Banelings for defense against zerglings if he's being agressive
roach warren is optional if you're feeling extremely threatened roach warren can be put at your choke or natural choke to decrease the amount of lings that can fit through from your opponent.
fast evo chamber for +1 armor
fast tech to lair after making just enough lings to defend etc.
expand after your 1-2 infestor.
Infestor+Hydra+ling and then into ultralisks all the while upgrading Melee and armor
Strategy:
+ Show Spoiler +
Basically, you'll have stronger lings, a fast fast lair, and the ability to deny expansions with masses of upgraded lings. Defending against lings really wouldn't be a problem in the early game either. If he goes mutas, you've got fungal and hydras. if he goes mass banelings you can just fungal if its after lair and kill them with hydras or block with roaches/lings with some micro. Late game will be transitioning into 3/3 Ultralisks and cracklings. One production cycle of cracklings focused on a hatch will kill it. Don't attack any other units. JUST KILL IT. : D
Against protoss:
14pool
14gas (Don't know if its the exact food timing or not)
scout scout scout at 12
Fast evo chamber (constantly upgrading)
Roach warren
Lair
Hydra/Spire/infestor
There is a timing push against a 2 gating protoss here to attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. Typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. Make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate. If you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you'll have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push.
Vs standard 4gate an expansion comes up after roaches and then get a spire to keep them in base until your ultras. vs pheonixes get infestors to do similar things with.
Strategy:
+ Show Spoiler +Fast infestor if he survives allows you to lock down zealots and keep them out of the fight while your hydras clean up.
Upgraded lings kill stalkers extremely quickly when they cannot move, and a quick hive allows for cracklings which can be suicided to kill expos. This build is a quick upgrade into timing push build that relies on solid unit control and upgrades to execute, its currently being worked on and not 100% finished, and as such will be changed in the future. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I'm working on my ZvP Last and unable to fully develop it at this time.
UPDATE!
Prince Xizor is Co-updating the op with me, so you have it straight from the horses mouth!
Thank you mods <3
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How does this handle really early straight up bio action? I can never expand this early because I get flat out run over with MnM.
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dont forget his zvz build. speedling baneling roach hydra infestor off one base. :p
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I'm going to have this test this out. I can definitely see it working on farther spawn distances but those reapers really scare me.
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On September 12 2010 04:17 Bowdy wrote:
dont forget his zvz build. speedling baneling roach hydra infestor off one base. :p
Roach infestor queen or even roach infestor is just flat out better really.
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On September 12 2010 04:17 sob3k wrote:
How does this handle really early straight up bio action? I can never expand this early because I get flat out run over with MnM.
Your infestors will DEMOLISH MnM. You will have 2-3 infestors with full energy by the time they move out at around 50 food. (Which is the normaly 3 rax timing push.) The point is to get those super cost effective units out as QUICK as possible. Also, you can start getting upgrades really really early if you'd like on your zerglings, you could be at +2 melee by the time their push even arrives.
Nothings scarier from a terrans point of view than your whole bio army getting fungal growthed then 20-30 +2 zerglings coming in to mop up
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To add to this.
Today in the belgian IEM qualifier Orly did something similar on Xel'naga caverns.
(and if you don't know orly look at his liquipedia page, altough he hasn't participated in a lot of tournaments, he is still a very good zerg player).
Just the timings were a bit different.
He went 15 hatch, gas immediatly after, and then he got the pool.
100 gas untill ling speed (T was going reapers) and then pulling the drones off gas again.
For the rest of the game he held off the early reapers with lings, got some roaches up since T went 5-rax, and transitioned to muta's, but ofcourse the follow-ups/transitions are completely dependant on the game.
And yes I'm also looking again for ways to get the hatch up earlier, since I find that the earlier creep, and the ability to start spreading creep earlier makes just a huge difference, especially in roaches vs reapers.
Oh and on maps like metalopolis/LT you should be able to scout the close position before actually making the hatch, and going 14 gas 14 pool if you don't dare to go hatch first on close positions, but I should check that again exactly to see when the drone scout arrives (testing soon)
Anyway, not completely the same, but the overall opening and the possibility to defend it is the same in that it ishatch before pool, and even gas before pool.
http://www.esl.eu/benelux/sc2/1on1/1biem/match/19742380/
(the game on xel'naga caverns, should be the 1st or 2nd game)
I hope my post added something to the topic, since I do think it's something worth exploring.
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On September 12 2010 04:23 Icx wrote:To add to this. Today in the belgian IEM qualifier Orly did something similar on Xel'naga caverns. (and if you don't know orly look at his liquipedia page, altough he hasn't participated in a lot of tournaments, he is still a very good zerg player). Just the timings were a bit different. He went 15 hatch, gas immediatly after, and then he got the pool. 100 gas untill ling speed (T was going reapers) and then pulling the drones off gas again. For the rest of the game he held off the early reapers with lings, got some roaches up since T went 5-rax, and transitioned to muta's, but ofcourse the follow-ups/transitions are completely dependant on the game. And yes I'm also looking again for ways to get the hatch up earlier, since I find that the earlier creep, and the ability to start spreading creep earlier makes just a huge difference, especially in roaches vs reapers. Oh and on maps like metalopolis/LT you should be able to scout the close position before actually making the hatch, and going 14 gas 14 pool if you don't dare to go hatch first on close positions, but I should check that again exactly to see when the drone scout arrives (testing soon) Anyway, not completely the same, but the overall opening and the possibility to defend it is the same in it hatch before pool, and even gas before pool. http://www.esl.eu/benelux/sc2/1on1/1biem/match/19742380/(the game on xel'naga caverns, should be the 1st or 2nd game) I hope my post added something to the topic, since I do think it's something worth exploring.
Thank you very very much, I'm going to add it to the Op <3
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isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening?
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On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote:
isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening?
Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.)
The basis of this build is to have a solid opener that does not rely on the Zerg's weak early game and that pushes the terran to worry about his positioning, or suffer heavy heavy losses once you get those infestors out.
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I play Terran. Even though I rarely 5 rax reaper, the earlier you get lair and infestors, mutas, speed roaches, or any combination thereof, the better off you are. As long as you're on hatchery tech I feel very comfortable.. So I like this strat, I haven't run across it before but it sounds solid, especially +2 lings with infestors. How do you think it does against hellion openers?
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On September 12 2010 04:41 TLOBrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote:
isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening? Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.)
It's not about control and micro issues, but how are you going to cope if opponent plans to block the ramp with 2 bunkers, first marine will come to your ramp much before you manage to get your lings out so you won't really have the option to block it with drones (with rax before depo that is). cancelling the hatch would put you at disadvantage. It's an all in from his part aswell but all I can say is, I'd really have a hard time dealing if something like this happened. I'll test it with my friend to analyse the timings I guess. Tho, it's not very often that terran does that since it's a rock paper scissor - type of plan.
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On September 12 2010 05:01 EonuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 04:41 TLOBrian wrote:On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote:
isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening? Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.) It's not about control and micro issues, but how are you going to cope if opponent plans to block the ramp with 2 bunkers, first marine will come to your ramp much before you manage to get your lings out so you won't really have the option to block it with drones (with rax before depo that is). cancelling the hatch would put you at disadvantage. It's an all in from his part aswell but all I can say is, I'd really have a hard time dealing if something like this happened. I'll test it with my friend to analyse the timings I guess. Tho, it's not very often that terran does that since it's a rock paper scissor - type of plan.
Well, now we're getting into this sort of grey area of reactions. It all depends on when I scout you, what I saw, what map it is etc. I mean, how does zerg normally deal with this sort of play when you're FEing?
I personally would get my pool down as soon as I see the bunker going up, and then get roaches after some lings so I can't get automatically run over. I don't see skipping the FE and going straight into lair to be too good, not unless you put up spine crawlers and try to crank out mutas to harass you, but by the time I get the mutas out you've probably gotten turrets out or killed me. It's a really grey area there, and really does come down to the player.
On September 12 2010 05:00 Senorcuidado wrote:
I play Terran. Even though I rarely 5 rax reaper, the earlier you get lair and infestors, mutas, speed roaches, or any combination thereof, the better off you are. As long as you're on hatchery tech I feel very comfortable.. So I like this strat, I haven't run across it before but it sounds solid, especially +2 lings with infestors. How do you think it does against hellion openers?
Against hellion openers I think it would still be solid with a little bit of micro. If you're going for something like the marauder+hellion push I think lings and fungal growth can hold it off really well. Since you're RUSHING for lair and infestors, you can be pretty safe against this sort of early agression as long as you scout properly and get PLENTY of lings. The beauty to this is that you're trying to get a compositional advantage, as hellions that can't kite die pretty fast to any sort of ling surround and marauders aren't very good against ling either. When you go for fast upgrades on your lings the hellion+marauder opening really isn't going to be cost effective for the terran. Basically, if you think about it, you're getting MORE bang for your buck out of ling upgrades then other early game upgrades because theres TWO units per 50 minerals that are going to be doing damage, and if you can get enough upgrades on those lings, they kill faster than they can die.
TL;DR: Fungal growth keeps hellions in place, lings clean up. Upgraded lings do significantly better than you would expect with micro, and good micro and creep spread really keeps hellion openings in check.
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problem with any in base hatch is you get boned really hard if the terran just decides to expand quickly. simply going 3 rax instead of 5 rax reaper will pin you and give him a huge econ lead.
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On September 12 2010 05:24 esla_sol wrote:
problem with any in base hatch is you get boned really hard if the terran just decides to expand quickly. simply going 3 rax instead of 5 rax reaper will pin you and give him a huge econ lead.
Oh I meant 14 hatch as in 14 Fast expand, I should clarify : P
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Just reading the build order, i question on how you would deal with a bunker at your nat, with 3-4 marines in it and a repair. I fear you cant mass enough lings to take the bunker out, especially on steppes or delta.
I also fear about a fast hellion openings, maybe even as fast as tlo's recently shown. It seems like your drones would be roasted by the time you even get a queen out. And by the time you get speedlings, the t could have 2-3 hellions out, and from there on out you are constantly making lings, nullifying your expo choice.
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On September 12 2010 04:20 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 04:17 Bowdy wrote:
dont forget his zvz build. speedling baneling roach hydra infestor off one base. :p Roach infestor queen or even roach infestor is just flat out better really.
sarcasm doesn't work well via text apparently
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well imo that works pretty well against 5rax reapers cause you have t2 before he reaches the critical mass of reaper
but good terran players will look for small harass with their first reapers while they get the critical mass of them
remember that 14gas 14 pool is the standart cause your matabolic boost finishes about 5 seconds after their nitro
this build delays that window of nitro reapers against slowlings about 30 seconds which is enough to kill your queen at the natural and the natural itselfs with their first 3 nitroreapers also a bunker with a reaper at your natural will be hard to handle for you cause of delayed pool
overall i like the idea, cause many terrans just sit back with their reapers while getting the critical mass of them, cause its the easiest way to play for them (and that wont work against that build), but some good terrans will be very active with their first reapers and find that timingwindow which theese buildorder offers
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I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
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I've done some testing with this, and have come up with a very nice BO that goes fluently to your first infestor. I go lair once pool finishes, next 100 gas into ling speed, next 150 into infestor upgrade, next 150 into infestor. I make a queen at my natural to spread creep (I've been wondering whether to skip the queen, but vs reapers she's key) and a spine crawler at the nat aswell, to help vs reapers. However, I'm not sure whether it's fast enough, and I'm not really sure which units to make once I hit lair.
I can't really afford a spire, because my drone count wont be that high really, if he harasses, and I have to pump a lot of lings. I can't really make roaches before infestor pops, because it would delay the infestor loads. I think making a raoch warren after the first infestor starts might be an idea, and then transition into mutas later.
I'm still a but dubious this works vs T consistently. I'll have to compare timing, with reaper build and helion harass.
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EPT
