right here is a choice between faster lair or faster ling speed. I would get ling speed if I'm still uncomfortable against those reapers. make a queen at the expo hatch early evo chamber for upgrades Nab those infestors!
Making a hatchery actually reduces the area you need to defend versus a reaper harass on certain maps (He was pointing this out earlier on his stream.) Also, with an extra hatch you don't need a queen right as you get the spawning pool since your first larva inject is normally wasted, or you put down a creep tumor instead.
The point is to be able to get to tier 2 FAST while still being able to properly defend against mass reaper/bio which is a prominent strategy. This opening allows a multitude of different styles of play, you can be super agressive with your tech and just not drone as hard (you will have 2 base gas income though, so you'll be able to keep up with your tech.) or you can do the sauron macro style zerg.
Basically, in the mid game your composition would change depending on what composition the terran goes after his reaper harass, or if he does a reaper harass at all, but infestors are key against bio and against hellions, which you can get extremely early.
If he doesn't reaper harass, you can basically dictate the game with your tech. Throwing up different tech structures that you MIGHT need really doesn't set you far behind, as knowing you can pop out a few banelings if he really wants to all in you with mass marines is a good thing to have.
Another advantage is that since you're going infestor for fungal growth against bio or mech, or air, is that you can immediately tech to tier 3 and use your mineral surplus you're likely to have make cracklings and ultralisks. Or you can just get really really fast upgrades and bash your opponent into submission.
The opening is micro intensive, and relies on your ability to micro zerglings against reapers. remember that creep is your friend and get that tier 2 asap! Avoid superfluous static defenses like the plague! Since you're teching to tier 2 you won't be hindered by the zerg early game!
Against Zerg:
14 gas 14 pool Fast Evo Chamber (while queen building) Building placement is important, spawning pool, evo chamber, and baneling nest wall off a side of the hatch to prevent baneling shenanigans. Banelings for defense against zerglings if he's being agressive roach warren is optional if you're feeling extremely threatened roach warren can be put at your choke or natural choke to decrease the amount of lings that can fit through from your opponent. fast evo chamber for +1 armor fast tech to lair after making just enough lings to defend etc. expand after your 1-2 infestor. Infestor+Hydra+ling and then into ultralisks all the while upgrading Melee and armor
Basically, you'll have stronger lings, a fast fast lair, and the ability to deny expansions with masses of upgraded lings. Defending against lings really wouldn't be a problem in the early game either. If he goes mutas, you've got fungal and hydras. if he goes mass banelings you can just fungal if its after lair and kill them with hydras or block with roaches/lings with some micro. Late game will be transitioning into 3/3 Ultralisks and cracklings. One production cycle of cracklings focused on a hatch will kill it. Don't attack any other units. JUST KILL IT. : D
Against protoss:
14pool 14gas (Don't know if its the exact food timing or not) scout scout scout at 12 Fast evo chamber (constantly upgrading) Roach warren Lair Hydra/Spire/infestor There is a timing push against a 2 gating protoss here to attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. Typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. Make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate. If you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you'll have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push. Vs standard 4gate an expansion comes up after roaches and then get a spire to keep them in base until your ultras. vs pheonixes get infestors to do similar things with.
Fast infestor if he survives allows you to lock down zealots and keep them out of the fight while your hydras clean up. Upgraded lings kill stalkers extremely quickly when they cannot move, and a quick hive allows for cracklings which can be suicided to kill expos. This build is a quick upgrade into timing push build that relies on solid unit control and upgrades to execute, its currently being worked on and not 100% finished, and as such will be changed in the future. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I'm working on my ZvP Last and unable to fully develop it at this time.
UPDATE! Prince Xizor is Co-updating the op with me, so you have it straight from the horses mouth!
On September 12 2010 04:17 sob3k wrote: How does this handle really early straight up bio action? I can never expand this early because I get flat out run over with MnM.
Your infestors will DEMOLISH MnM. You will have 2-3 infestors with full energy by the time they move out at around 50 food. (Which is the normaly 3 rax timing push.) The point is to get those super cost effective units out as QUICK as possible. Also, you can start getting upgrades really really early if you'd like on your zerglings, you could be at +2 melee by the time their push even arrives.
Nothings scarier from a terrans point of view than your whole bio army getting fungal growthed then 20-30 +2 zerglings coming in to mop up
Today in the belgian IEM qualifier Orly did something similar on Xel'naga caverns. (and if you don't know orly look at his liquipedia page, altough he hasn't participated in a lot of tournaments, he is still a very good zerg player).
Just the timings were a bit different.
He went 15 hatch, gas immediatly after, and then he got the pool. 100 gas untill ling speed (T was going reapers) and then pulling the drones off gas again.
For the rest of the game he held off the early reapers with lings, got some roaches up since T went 5-rax, and transitioned to muta's, but ofcourse the follow-ups/transitions are completely dependant on the game.
And yes I'm also looking again for ways to get the hatch up earlier, since I find that the earlier creep, and the ability to start spreading creep earlier makes just a huge difference, especially in roaches vs reapers.
Oh and on maps like metalopolis/LT you should be able to scout the close position before actually making the hatch, and going 14 gas 14 pool if you don't dare to go hatch first on close positions, but I should check that again exactly to see when the drone scout arrives (testing soon)
Anyway, not completely the same, but the overall opening and the possibility to defend it is the same in that it ishatch before pool, and even gas before pool.
On September 12 2010 04:23 Icx wrote: To add to this.
Today in the belgian IEM qualifier Orly did something similar on Xel'naga caverns. (and if you don't know orly look at his liquipedia page, altough he hasn't participated in a lot of tournaments, he is still a very good zerg player).
Just the timings were a bit different.
He went 15 hatch, gas immediatly after, and then he got the pool. 100 gas untill ling speed (T was going reapers) and then pulling the drones off gas again.
For the rest of the game he held off the early reapers with lings, got some roaches up since T went 5-rax, and transitioned to muta's, but ofcourse the follow-ups/transitions are completely dependant on the game.
And yes I'm also looking again for ways to get the hatch up earlier, since I find that the earlier creep, and the ability to start spreading creep earlier makes just a huge difference, especially in roaches vs reapers.
Oh and on maps like metalopolis/LT you should be able to scout the close position before actually making the hatch, and going 14 gas 14 pool if you don't dare to go hatch first on close positions, but I should check that again exactly to see when the drone scout arrives (testing soon)
Anyway, not completely the same, but the overall opening and the possibility to defend it is the same in it hatch before pool, and even gas before pool.
On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote: isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening?
Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.)
The basis of this build is to have a solid opener that does not rely on the Zerg's weak early game and that pushes the terran to worry about his positioning, or suffer heavy heavy losses once you get those infestors out.
I play Terran. Even though I rarely 5 rax reaper, the earlier you get lair and infestors, mutas, speed roaches, or any combination thereof, the better off you are. As long as you're on hatchery tech I feel very comfortable.. So I like this strat, I haven't run across it before but it sounds solid, especially +2 lings with infestors. How do you think it does against hellion openers?
On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote: isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening?
Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.)
It's not about control and micro issues, but how are you going to cope if opponent plans to block the ramp with 2 bunkers, first marine will come to your ramp much before you manage to get your lings out so you won't really have the option to block it with drones (with rax before depo that is). cancelling the hatch would put you at disadvantage. It's an all in from his part aswell but all I can say is, I'd really have a hard time dealing if something like this happened. I'll test it with my friend to analyse the timings I guess. Tho, it's not very often that terran does that since it's a rock paper scissor - type of plan.
On September 12 2010 04:33 EonuS wrote: isn't this rather risky considering terran can do a rax before depo opening?
Like an 8rax reaper? Yes it would be risky if you have poor control. Zergling micro is CRUCIAL and so is early scouting. It would depend on preference, but I would scout right after overlord (8 or 9, whichever you prefer really.)
It's not about control and micro issues, but how are you going to cope if opponent plans to block the ramp with 2 bunkers, first marine will come to your ramp much before you manage to get your lings out so you won't really have the option to block it with drones (with rax before depo that is). cancelling the hatch would put you at disadvantage. It's an all in from his part aswell but all I can say is, I'd really have a hard time dealing if something like this happened. I'll test it with my friend to analyse the timings I guess. Tho, it's not very often that terran does that since it's a rock paper scissor - type of plan.
Well, now we're getting into this sort of grey area of reactions. It all depends on when I scout you, what I saw, what map it is etc. I mean, how does zerg normally deal with this sort of play when you're FEing?
I personally would get my pool down as soon as I see the bunker going up, and then get roaches after some lings so I can't get automatically run over. I don't see skipping the FE and going straight into lair to be too good, not unless you put up spine crawlers and try to crank out mutas to harass you, but by the time I get the mutas out you've probably gotten turrets out or killed me. It's a really grey area there, and really does come down to the player.
On September 12 2010 05:00 Senorcuidado wrote: I play Terran. Even though I rarely 5 rax reaper, the earlier you get lair and infestors, mutas, speed roaches, or any combination thereof, the better off you are. As long as you're on hatchery tech I feel very comfortable.. So I like this strat, I haven't run across it before but it sounds solid, especially +2 lings with infestors. How do you think it does against hellion openers?
Against hellion openers I think it would still be solid with a little bit of micro. If you're going for something like the marauder+hellion push I think lings and fungal growth can hold it off really well. Since you're RUSHING for lair and infestors, you can be pretty safe against this sort of early agression as long as you scout properly and get PLENTY of lings. The beauty to this is that you're trying to get a compositional advantage, as hellions that can't kite die pretty fast to any sort of ling surround and marauders aren't very good against ling either. When you go for fast upgrades on your lings the hellion+marauder opening really isn't going to be cost effective for the terran. Basically, if you think about it, you're getting MORE bang for your buck out of ling upgrades then other early game upgrades because theres TWO units per 50 minerals that are going to be doing damage, and if you can get enough upgrades on those lings, they kill faster than they can die.
TL;DR: Fungal growth keeps hellions in place, lings clean up. Upgraded lings do significantly better than you would expect with micro, and good micro and creep spread really keeps hellion openings in check.
problem with any in base hatch is you get boned really hard if the terran just decides to expand quickly. simply going 3 rax instead of 5 rax reaper will pin you and give him a huge econ lead.
On September 12 2010 05:24 esla_sol wrote: problem with any in base hatch is you get boned really hard if the terran just decides to expand quickly. simply going 3 rax instead of 5 rax reaper will pin you and give him a huge econ lead.
Oh I meant 14 hatch as in 14 Fast expand, I should clarify : P
Just reading the build order, i question on how you would deal with a bunker at your nat, with 3-4 marines in it and a repair. I fear you cant mass enough lings to take the bunker out, especially on steppes or delta.
I also fear about a fast hellion openings, maybe even as fast as tlo's recently shown. It seems like your drones would be roasted by the time you even get a queen out. And by the time you get speedlings, the t could have 2-3 hellions out, and from there on out you are constantly making lings, nullifying your expo choice.
well imo that works pretty well against 5rax reapers cause you have t2 before he reaches the critical mass of reaper
but good terran players will look for small harass with their first reapers while they get the critical mass of them
remember that 14gas 14 pool is the standart cause your matabolic boost finishes about 5 seconds after their nitro
this build delays that window of nitro reapers against slowlings about 30 seconds which is enough to kill your queen at the natural and the natural itselfs with their first 3 nitroreapers also a bunker with a reaper at your natural will be hard to handle for you cause of delayed pool
overall i like the idea, cause many terrans just sit back with their reapers while getting the critical mass of them, cause its the easiest way to play for them (and that wont work against that build), but some good terrans will be very active with their first reapers and find that timingwindow which theese buildorder offers
I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
I've done some testing with this, and have come up with a very nice BO that goes fluently to your first infestor. I go lair once pool finishes, next 100 gas into ling speed, next 150 into infestor upgrade, next 150 into infestor. I make a queen at my natural to spread creep (I've been wondering whether to skip the queen, but vs reapers she's key) and a spine crawler at the nat aswell, to help vs reapers. However, I'm not sure whether it's fast enough, and I'm not really sure which units to make once I hit lair.
I can't really afford a spire, because my drone count wont be that high really, if he harasses, and I have to pump a lot of lings. I can't really make roaches before infestor pops, because it would delay the infestor loads. I think making a raoch warren after the first infestor starts might be an idea, and then transition into mutas later.
I'm still a but dubious this works vs T consistently. I'll have to compare timing, with reaper build and helion harass.
I added his recent livestream recording. He even deals with a rax before depot build, and is wary against bunkers. He does some ZvT and ZvZ. He commentates on his play constantly as well. If you have questions about the build most of it is probably answered in the recording.
Sounds interesting and I would be happy to help test it around the 1100 diamond level.
What is the timing on the first infestor with 75 energy? I would mostly be concerned about an early hellion/marauder push or even fast banshees/fast thor as fungal growth is a lot worse against those than against marines and reapers.
The other issue I see with it is that as we all know, hydras aren't the best idea against T and mutas are very gas heavy (so don't fit well with infestors). What can be done about air defense, is fungal and ITs enough ?
On September 12 2010 07:02 Sixes wrote: Sounds interesting and I would be happy to help test it around the 1100 diamond level.
What is the timing on the first infestor with 75 energy? I would mostly be concerned about an early hellion/marauder push or even fast banshees/fast thor as fungal growth is a lot worse against those than against marines and reapers.
The other issue I see with it is that as we all know, hydras aren't the best idea against T and mutas are very gas heavy (so don't fit well with infestors). What can be done about air defense, is fungal and ITs enough ?
From what I saw the equal range of the banshees means you can use 3-4 hydras to pick off the banshees one at a time when they're fungal growthed with a little bit of micro to keep the low health hydra back, the banshees won't all be able to shoot the hydras at once because they're equal range with the upgrade.
And for thors, you're going to be making alot of zerglings, and upgraded zerglings are cost effective against thors.
For the hellion/marauder push I'm pretty sure that you'll have fungal growth before it comes, at least enough energy for one but I'm not exactly sure on the timing of the first 75 energy.
Basically hardcounters I.E Hellions to zerglings aren't really hardcounters if they can't move! : P The infestor basically turns the tide of ZvT and the faster you get infestors the easier it becomes to deal with a terran.
Sounds nice, looks nice.... I thought about something like this, but adding in more expansions, or in-main hatch to reduce the injecting problem with larva and bad mechanics, which it seems he has with loads of spare resources...
His play is really really interesting. I wonder how it would do if he (and his opponents: while one base terran is what you encounter on the ladder even at mid to high diamond, it's not really good/"optimal") had better mechanics.
If nothing else it's convinced me to incorporate earlier infestors into my play. The 30/whatever while researching timing is useful to know too.
Very interesting... im tempting to start practicing with those infestors. he makes great use of them, and the whole fast expand thing seems to work fine for him.
On September 12 2010 04:17 Bowdy wrote: dont forget his zvz build. speedling baneling roach hydra infestor off one base. :p
You think that's impressive, you havent seen my speedling, baneling, roach, infestor, hydra, overlord, ultra, broodlord, corruptor, overseer, drone, queen, changeling extractor build.
Been testing this out since I woke up this morning, had nothing but horrible experiences so far. I won't post replays though, as I'm doing it far, far too sloppy.My big problem with this build is when my opponant realizes that I don't really have any chance to push him with early infestors, and goes economy crazy.
The combination of microing the small infestor forces against harass, while trying to keep up in economy against 2x-3x orbital commands does my head in.
On September 12 2010 21:34 kataa wrote: Been testing this out since I woke up this morning, had nothing but horrible experiences so far. I won't post replays though, as I'm doing it far, far too sloppy.My big problem with this build is when my opponant realizes that I don't really have any chance to push him with early infestors, and goes economy crazy.
The combination of microing the small infestor forces against harass, while trying to keep up in economy against 2x-3x orbital commands does my head in.
I kind of think with this build that you can go expand crazy because of how many minerals you're going to be stacking up because you're basically just spending gas. Like others have said you probably NEED an extra hatch and queen for zerglings.
I kind of think with this build that you can go expand crazy because of how many minerals you're going to be stacking up because you're basically just spending gas. Like others have said you probably NEED an extra hatch and queen for zerglings.
I think you're right. As he said himself in a ZvZ, it's only after he gets a 2nd hatch that he has the larva to take map control with the upgraded lings. He does this much earlier, and really well in his TvZ which is what makes it so strong.
I'm far from a decent SC2 player, but my background in Company of Heroes makes me paranoid as hell any time I don't have map control. Gonna try out this strat some more, with a focus on lings with upgrades, a little less intense on the infestor side.
This build just feels so... weak. Just watching the replays makes me uneasy, he'll just have a handful of zerglings, a few hydras, and like, 3 infestors at all times. I want to try it but i feel like i'll just get steamrolled. But that's what i like about it, is if watching the replay makes it hard to judge how powerful of an army the zerg has, then playing against it must be even worse. The lack of air defense most of the game is deceptive too, but the fungal growth does pretty well vs air. I'll definately try this a bit and just try and get a feel. I like the idea of the infestors being the core of his defense, they seem to always be devistating when he uses them.
On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote: this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural)
I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions.
HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9!
Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P
Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base.
Updated the OP with his builds against other races which use fast upgrade and fast lair shenanigans. I'm 90% sure everything is correct, so bear with me if its not. I'm waiting for him to PM me/ Post in the thread so I can confirm that EVERYTHING is exactly right.
On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote: this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural)
I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions.
HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9!
Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P
Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base.
1. This thread is awesome.
2. The 2gate reference above is not a part of my ZvT build. it was a random question i got. i'm not the best vs Protoss (worst matchup by far), and so i'm still experimenting i do a different openning vs protoss. and for fungal growthing + NP templar it's very hard to do, and i don't bother to pull it off against micro-players. it works vs the macro style protoss that just want alot of stuff and don't micro as well. and it's good as a surprise with burrow but thats it.
3. I scout on 9 specifically for reaper or banshee timing. also i get an overseer (if i'm playing well) as soon as my lair finishes to keep scouting throughout the game.
4. My build was originally developed in beta to play vs mech (during all the mech imba cries), and as such it works wonderfully vs the reactor'd hellion harrassment. you do have infestors out in time. it takes practice to beat reapers w/ this build though i was failing miserably for a long while trying it. even hatching in base at times ect. but now I can do pretty well against it and typically don't lose more than a drone or two. and some lings.
5. my mechanics are the worst part of my play, and do not dismiss the build because my mechanics were not great. i'm working on them. my opponents were all diamond around 700-1000 at the time of the replays.
6. Vs Bunkers your early scout sees the SCV coming and you have positioned your overlord to spot anybunker and if the scv disappears you send a drone after it, if a bunker goes down pull 2 drones and kill the scv. thats what i do, there is probably a better way though. but its what i do.
On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote: this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural)
I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions.
HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9!
Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P
Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base.
1. This thread is awesome.
2. The 2gate reference above is not a part of my ZvT build. it was a random question i got. i'm not the best vs Protoss (worst matchup by far), and so i'm still experimenting i do a different openning vs protoss. and for fungal growthing + NP templar it's very hard to do, and i don't bother to pull it off against micro-players. it works vs the macro style protoss that just want alot of stuff and don't micro as well. and it's good as a surprise with burrow but thats it.
3. I scout on 9 specifically for reaper or banshee timing. also i get an overseer (if i'm playing well) as soon as my lair finishes to keep scouting throughout the game.
4. My build was originally developed in beta to play vs mech (during all the mech imba cries), and as such it works wonderfully vs the reactor'd hellion harrassment. you do have infestors out in time. it takes practice to beat reapers w/ this build though i was failing miserably for a long while trying it. even hatching in base at times ect. but now I can do pretty well against it and typically don't lose more than a drone or two. and some lings.
5. my mechanics are the worst part of my play, and do not dismiss the build because my mechanics were not great. i'm working on them. my opponents were all diamond around 700-1000 at the time of the replays.
6. Vs Bunkers your early scout sees the SCV coming and you have positioned your overlord to spot anybunker and if the scv disappears you send a drone after it, if a bunker goes down pull 2 drones and kill the scv. thats what i do, there is probably a better way though. but its what i do.
And thank you for making this thread O.o
I think I ninja'd you with my OP...>.> I think that's all your builds, I hope? It's really vague because I don't know the exact timings of everything. And also I don't think you can say the exact timings because it depends on your opponents play....hmm...
Basically the reocurring trends I see is: Get a fast evo chamber for upgrades Get Lair Use infestors, hydras, and upgraded lings to scout and deny expansions, and deny all sorts of harass and shenanigans. Get ultralisks, move out with your 3/3 melee army that is super effective because your opponent can't move because of fungal.
I think I ninja'd you with my OP...>.> I think that's all your builds, I hope? It's really vague because I don't know the exact timings of everything. And also I don't think you can say the exact timings because it depends on your opponents play....hmm...
Basically the reocurring trends I see is: Get a fast evo chamber for upgrades Get Lair Use infestors, hydras, and upgraded lings to scout and deny expansions, and deny all sorts of harass and shenanigans. Get ultralisks, move out with your 3/3 melee army that is super effective because your opponent can't move because of fungal.
That is generally my ZvZ. yeah. very simplified. but yeah. my Vs T is a bit different mid-late game.and my vP is still being worked on.
Thanks Brian, Great post, and great streaming Prince. I've been watching your streams for a while now, and you're doin it up real nice. =) I'll be happy if I can pull this style off half as good.
I've been experimenting with it on ladder (opponents all ~1000, about 8 games vT, mixed results mostly I attribute to my mechanics). I would like to hear what better players think about this too.
1) I love the heavy infestor early to midgame, and I like a lot of what this build does, but I'm not sold on the early or (fast transition to) late game necessarily.
2) Blue flame hellions alone aren't scary but with tank/thor support it becomes really difficult dealing with them considering they stop your ultras from getting to things and rape your lings. I can't simply run my infestors up and fungal them because the tank range is too long. Mostly this is just me observing that the end game terran death ball is still the end game terran death ball, and I need to harass/avoid more.
3) NP becomes necessity against thors/mech in general since calldown repair after you fungal them just heals them back up and sometimes the thor deathball becomes too much to deal with when hellions stream back in.
4) I'm not sold on the early game. 14 hatch just feels too risky on most maps (I never lose to the bunker rush but they do annoying things like leave have multiple SCVs building the bunker and just take the loss on one of them so then I have to deal with marines in bunkers which means more lings than I want to make/delayed gas because I'm thrown off guard), but I love the early creep spread. I might try messing around with doing the standard 14 gas 14 pool with an early second queen either before or after the expo. The other thing I'm noticing is I feel like I have too much money too early with 14 hatch. This isn't a bad thing of course, but I just feel like earlier gas earlier lair, earlier queen and you aren't really giving much up if you're top notch and spreading creep.
5) I'm not sold on the super fast ultras/hive tech. You don't have enough gas to support all this as early as you want to also be pumping out infestors to live through whatever it is you need to live through to get to ultras.
6) I'm not sure about hydras but I do really like roaches and getting burrow for both of infestors and roaches. Roaches also don't get roasted by hellions as easily. With heavy lings and infestors I can't kill a PF. (SCVs with auto repair live through fungal pretty easily if they're repairing a PF...)
7) Close position DQ vT sucks (why are those god damn rocks at my "safe" natural). In general infestors seem to work better on longer maps but this is just me being angry at the small map pool
8) I haven't encountered ghosts or terran who just minesweep my creep but I'd imagine both would be very hard to deal with.
I just encountered a terran who went mass ghosts vs this. I'd imagine a spine crawler/spore would be enough to keep him from sneaking in the base, i didn't do that and he sniped several infestors.
The ghosts werent that hard to deal with, he had about 8 in my base, and 2 fungals revealed all of them and stuck them in place, then about 15 speedlings cleaned them up easily.
Since prince has started posting in thread I think he can answer some of your questions about the build now : P Head on over to his livestream, he's on periodically and has great VODs, I personally watch whatever VOD I have missed and he is full of information.
On September 12 2010 06:29 StarBrift wrote: I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
I dunno if this was addressed already (3 pages is too much reading for one with A.D.D. as persistent as I) but they'll have speed by the time you have reaper speed. If you, as a terran player with reapers, don't have speed and they don't have speed, then the creep will give the lings the move speed advantage, and will shut down kiting until your reapers get speed.
Of course, if you outmicro the lings with cliff jumping, then you can still pull off effective harassing. But if the Zerg can pull off the relatively basic micro required to chase, flank, and surround the reapers, then he's golden, he's shut down the early reapers, etc. etc. etc.
And as for bunker rushes, if the Zerg sees early signs of a bunker rush (proxy rax, dropped scv count, a bunker being constructed in the Zerg main are all nice signs) then he simply won't place down the expansion. Or, depending on how early he scouts and how confident he's feeling, he might anyways.
I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it.
On September 13 2010 11:12 Dox wrote: I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it.
the queen is delayed by about 10 seconds game time, you get it at your natural it's not really late.
On September 13 2010 11:12 Dox wrote: I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it.
the queen is delayed by about 10 seconds game time, you get it at your natural it's not really late.
Prince if there are any glaring errors in my post just quote the original post and then make your edits to it, PM me it and I'll just copy pasta it back into the OP
This build is pretty cool. I finally managed to overcome my fear of MMM by rushing to infestors. They seriously put the hurt on a clumped up bio ball. Not to mention, theres no "wall" of having to get the infestor pit before going hive. You just go hive when you see siege tanks and let ultras do the rest. Fast teching never felt so good!
After running with this for a couple of days, I really like the possibilities.
I've been going Ling-Inf to Ling-Inf-Ultra, with any other tech I need to survive based on scouting. (this is basically what I picked up from watching PX's cast recording.)
Feels like a style that will, as PX said, scale with skill. I often feel like there is a great deal going on midgame that my 80-90 apm can't quite handle.
I've also found it more difficult to keep my resources down with the PX style, but sometimes this is a strength, as I can delay any push with early INF and spawn units as needed, which allows faster tech when undisturbed.
Actually, i'm quite surprised we didn't see that sort of build before.
For several reasons, first, TLO was playing a lot with Speelings/infestor, and do amazingly well with it when he was playing Zerg. Second, it's remind me of the 1/1/1 Terran build, where you develop all of your tech' while defending ( this is the risky part with zerg compare to Terran ofc ^^ ) so you can pretty much do whatever you want after it's built. And finally, it's so logical and smooth, infestation pitt is always used as the "get T3" structure and everyone's saying that infestors rocks and are underused. So why not using them god dam it ! ^^
In a way, this kind of build avoid the concept of "tiers" and this is more about "where should i invest my first gas".
Could be wrong tho, i'm just a low diamand player who don't play a lot, but still, i feel it ! I want to believe. ^^
On September 13 2010 16:26 FFitchMode wrote: After running with this for a couple of days, I really like the possibilities.
I've been going Ling-Inf to Ling-Inf-Ultra, with any other tech I need to survive based on scouting. (this is basically what I picked up from watching PX's cast recording.)
Feels like a style that will, as PX said, scale with skill. I often feel like there is a great deal going on midgame that my 80-90 apm can't quite handle.
I've also found it more difficult to keep my resources down with the PX style, but sometimes this is a strength, as I can delay any push with early INF and spawn units as needed, which allows faster tech when undisturbed.
I love that you love this : P
I personally believe an extra hatch is needed because:
1.This build gets tech out in waves.
2.Zerglings are a larva expensive unit. (and good in emergencies...)
3.You'll have a ton of extra minerals at any given point of time, and who doesn't like droning harder?
I would like to see some replays from others using this style. If anyone has some I would appreciate it. Everyone has their own touch, and I'm more afraid of not being able to counter early rushes. The more variable openings I can see the better.
Thank you for your effort guys. I'm glad us zerg have ya!
I'm all over this build. One thing that's important to know, map control with lings is key. Eventually you replace them with creep/overlords. But it's key to place your infestors in the defensive spots against faster units (reapers/medivacs/hellions).
If your infestors are in the right spot, I really can't see you suffering any damage from the harrass.
I'm quite interested in doing multiple test runs of this build against a terran player. If there's anyone here from the EU servers who is able to play terran on a diamond league level (900ish) and wants to help me test this build then please PM me.
If I can find anyone who will play several games with me to practice and test this build then I'll post the replays here.
Incredible how cost effective they are vs most T units.
I held off a MM attack and later MMM attack with 2 infestors and a handful of lings. 2nd attack killed my nat with the last marauder. But I had enough money then to ultra and just feel safe from there. However I failed scout and got mass bansheed :D forgot hydra den think 2 infestors + 5 hydras would have saved the day
Extremely effective vs Ts that position their units badly I must say. Very much the unit that allows a better Z player to own a worse T player. Managing to kill like 10 helions with 3 infestors, NP a thor and move in with lings + ultras is awesome. Its at least a very fun build =)
On September 13 2010 22:53 Mastadon6900 wrote: I will definitely try these builds... I am only Gold atm
I'm not sure if this build is for you. You have to have really really good micro at the beginning to hold off reapers, and use infestors efficiently.
I disagree actually, I'm high gold, and after the first few games I am starting to feel pretty solid early game. (Although I was mid/high plat untill I switched to protoss for a few days on ladder without ever having played them before, lol) Anyway, after getting used to using my initial lings correctly, and spending my first 300-400 gas in the right order, things are settling down. Won 8 straight this morning like this.
I have had some trouble dealing with fast banshees that seem to be coming out around 30-35 food, but I feel like this will get better too if i start scouting for starports a little before then and throw down spores and get my inf down asap.
Another cool thing about the fast infestors, which I think PX mentioned in one of his streams, is that they force full commitment from any push. A lot of times this means I can pull drones back into my main, lose my nat while I fungal his army and pump lings, and throw it down again right away and get back to mining. Not that you would want to be doing this, but since you can trade a cheaper ling army for his whole force you can sometimes afford the economic hit and survive.
On September 14 2010 05:58 FFitchMode wrote: Another cool thing about the fast infestors, which I think PX mentioned in one of his streams, is that they force full commitment from any push. A lot of times this means I can pull drones back into my main, lose my nat while I fungal his army and pump lings, and throw it down again right away and get back to mining. Not that you would want to be doing this, but since you can trade a cheaper ling army for his whole force you can sometimes afford the economic hit and survive.
you can do the same thing fungalling them outside of your base. do that instead.
PrinceXizor, first of all I'm enjoying your stream and your commentating. I love the way you explain your strategies and way of think of the game and analyze it. You are awesome and well mannered and I hope you woun't get this one wrong.
I saw this strategy a lot and played it myself, the thing, or better problem, I have with it that this is "just" a strategy for dumb opponents. You beat your opponents because they play blindly the same. I saw you killing like 8 mutas with 3 hydras and 2 infestors, which is awesome but people in your game are doing this not one time, they lose like 20 mutas everytime to the same thing and this is why I think you are getting controle of the game. It's okay for low\mid diamond but honestly I dont think that this delayed and safe playing expansion works well in upper tier, too.
In no game I saw streamed you took advantage of those attacks, you just used it to secure more expansions and win those harass battles over and over. At some point you were even and started to snipe expos with lings.
The simple question for ZvZ is, what do you do when a player realizes the tech and just overwhelm you with Eco? I'm not sure if you can defend a 3 base push when you are at one. Would be awesome to hear an answer from you.
On September 14 2010 06:48 CallmeMuppet wrote: Hi there,
PrinceXizor, first of all I'm enjoying your stream and your commentating. I love the way you explain your strategies and way of think of the game and analyze it. You are awesome and well mannered and I hope you woun't get this one wrong.
I saw this strategy a lot and played it myself, the thing, or better problem, I have with it that this is "just" a strategy for dumb opponents. You beat your opponents because they play blindly the same. I saw you killing like 8 mutas with 3 hydras and 2 infestors, which is awesome but people in your game are doing this not one time, they lose like 20 mutas everytime to the same thing and this is why I think you are getting controle of the game. It's okay for low\mid diamond but honestly I dont think that this delayed and safe playing expansion works well in upper tier, too.
In no game I saw streamed you took advantage of those attacks, you just used it to secure more expansions and win those harass battles over and over. At some point you were even and started to snipe expos with lings.
The simple question for ZvZ is, what do you do when a player realizes the tech and just overwhelm you with Eco? I'm not sure if you can defend a 3 base push when you are at one. Would be awesome to hear an answer from you.
Best and kind regards,
Well. A Fast Expand against me in ZvZ is the hardest to break with my ZvZ strategy, if they go just mass roach hydra however lings are no threat at all, and neither are baneling or mutalisks. FE is not common in ZvZ and i could delay my tech to punish the expo with speedlings if i chose to do that.
they tend not to get to 3 base while i am on 1 because I expand moderately quickly since i expand dependant on situation. that is, when i have 2 infestors, and they are going air, or when i have 2 infestors and 2-4 hydras, and they are going ground. my expansion is roughly 8 food behind a typical player, and i make up for that by being (unlike my opponent) typically immune to the harrassment.
with the safety of my small force i can tend to pump drones more often than another player, spiking my economy up to their level in a short period of time.
after you get 10-12 hydras you can start picking off units of the enemy as you can get creep pretty far with ovvies and stuff. you run in with lings (if roaches) and kill the expo if you feel you can, OR harrass with the hydras against roaches forcing them to engage or pull back, and fungal them as they are coming, keeping them out of range and picking off as many units as you can safely, then fungalling and running back. you can be agressive and keep forcing the enemy to avoid drone production and high numbers of units.
they typically will never get more than 2 bases for very long as I snipe them easily unless his army is there. and I expand as i can, there are actually points in time i can expand beyond what i do in the vods and in the replays. But due to lack of vision by myself (a mistake easily rectified by using your overlords and overseers more) i felt unsafe. So yeah I agree that the resources shown do not reflect the full ability of the build, and As i continue to get better about vision and spotting and macro my build will get stronger and stronger.
Note, my macro in my replays is not very good. That is my main focus in my current practicing.
I will also grant you that my opponents seem to be pretty terrible. But this is in part due greatly to the confusion that is caused by a ZvZ going to late game, something I am entirely used to and planning on, and something the general public does not expect. So i have a severe advantage in that part. MY opponents are not terrible players typically, always tend to be between 51-80% win rate in diamond. I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game.
If you DO get stuck on 1 base when they are on 3+ bases, you have to use infestors and terrain to your advantage as MUCH as possible. putting crawlers on high ground and fungalling them on the bottom of the ramp so they cannot see up top and just keep using ranged units to kill their army without them seeing you, using some units to target any overlord ect they have to keep them in the dark. Thats how i've held off much larger armies, it's not really that good, but it's enough to defend if you get stuck in a bad situation. Though normally, yeah you can keep them on 1-2 bases and expand off of 1 fairly soon.
In short, if they do not throw away any advantage they have, you just go take it. i felt no need to be aggressive when my opponents were content to throw away 2000/2000 in units at me repeatedly.
All I have to say is that I'm really enjoying the 14 hatch/gas/pool. It feels like a lot less APM work for a much larger return.
It seems counterintuitive, but having the hatch before the pool that early makes defending a lot easier vs terran. I do have to warn you though, don't do this against a toss
First of all thank you very much for the effort putting in this answer!
It all does make sense when I'm reading this though I know its everytime diffrent when I am playing this. I have those 3 Infestors, get my upgrades, trying to tech to ultra and then I get crushed from tons of units which my infestors can not use.
Lack of scouting? think so. Wrong Infestor usage? could be. Wrong techtiming? possible.
I will watch your stream more to point the mistakes in my play, maybe I'm able to write something more detailed then.
I tried a 15 hatch after a Sen's build against Terran and got rolled over by reaper bunker. 14 hatch is less riskier maybe. I will try it, going fast lair tech seems pretty cool.
I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game. .
I think you're pretty much right on with that. Whenever i've tried infestor play similar to yours, it definitely seems a bit like it throws them through an unexpected loop.
I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game. .
I think you're pretty much right on with that. Whenever i've tried infestor play similar to yours, it definitely seems a bit like it throws them through an unexpected loop.
Yeah, when a terran is like, "Where the hell did my army go, did it just die?" That's always a good change of pace : P Upgraded lings and fungal growths give me a nerdboner.
Any advice for Reaper/Bunker rushing? I might attach a replay when I get home, but this seems to just walk all over me. By the time I'm getting harassed (Shut down the bunker) there are enough reapers to take my lings, and sunkens.
Just won with it first time (ZvT). I like it. A couple of fungal growths and some zerglings stopped his MMT ball easily. What should be the timing key for Lair? It seems like it should be upgraded as soon as possible, unless under immediate threat of attack.
And why did PrinceXizor not use Changelings at all to scout?
On September 14 2010 22:11 JrK wrote: Any advice for Reaper/Bunker rushing? I might attach a replay when I get home, but this seems to just walk all over me. By the time I'm getting harassed (Shut down the bunker) there are enough reapers to take my lings, and sunkens.
Beating reapers and bunkers just takes practice. doing the right thing at the right time, knowing when it's coming and when to pull drones to kill the scv and bunker and when to attack. it's not something i can tell you to do and its simple and clear. it's really just good vision and good feel for the situation, it comes with practice.
as for why i didn't use changelings, contaminate is so much more powerful, and if i actually use the overseer to scout as often as possible i'lll do just fine.
Why don't use the same 14 hatch against protoss? Against P ling speed it less important early then against T. I think Sen does a 15 hatch and no ling speed for a long time against P.
On September 15 2010 03:46 J7S wrote: Why don't use the same 14 hatch against protoss? Against P ling speed it less important early then against T. I think Sen does a 15 hatch and no ling speed for a long time against P.
to be honest i'm experimenting with my vP game so i might try this, so i haven't found a definite strategy. but the timing push vs 2 gate is deadly with the build listed, and so i want to really take advantage of that.
This works great for me even at silver level. Whoever it was that said don't try it, remember, the silver terran reaper micro is just as bad as my ling micro. And the only way mine will improve is to try it.
Honestly, I have lost less times to my bad ling micro and more often to figuring he didn't go reapers and pushing out then having 15 reapers hop into my base while most of my army is away. I would feel better if I thought they were delaying on purpose to fool me.
i do hatch first vs t as well because it offers almost identical reper protection and its held up the best against msv's style which is pretty much the most agressive reapers i've seen aside from the rusty games vs machine (lol)
On September 15 2010 04:55 Ema wrote: Around when do you consider getting the evo chamber? Right after the queen is queued?
in which matchup, in ZvZ yes. in ZvT i get it around the time i have an infestor or two out, and in ZvP it's dependant on my plan for the game, early if using banelings later if not.
I watched that livestream, and I am slack jawed at how badly that shut down the terrans you played. I've never seen someone with such bad macro completely and effortlessly shut down someone else like that.
I still think that a terran who either expands before harassing ala tlo or who pulls back upon sighting infestors with his first units will completely destroy you, but it is good to see another style of play emerge.
I've tried going fast lair/hive in the past but could never hold it, but I've never centered my play around infestors, either. Also I had no idea ultras were so cheap now.
On September 15 2010 05:33 onmach wrote: I watched that livestream, and I am slack jawed at how badly that shut down the terrans you played. I've never seen someone with such bad macro completely and effortlessly shut down someone else like that.
I still think that a terran who either expands before harassing ala tlo or who pulls back upon sighting infestors with his first units will completely destroy you, but it is good to see another style of play emerge.
I've tried going fast lair/hive in the past but could never hold it, but I've never centered my play around infestors, either. Also I had no idea ultras were so cheap now.
just the ultralisk cavern, ultras are still 300/200, but the den is cheaper now.
I used to play this style during the days just after release. Except I opened with Speedlings since 15 Hatch without Roaches cannot hold Reapers vs someone who actually has a clue how to micro.
Infestor rushes crushes many Terran openings, however, it crumbles like a card-house on a windy day vs Marine/Tank pushes off 2 bases just before Ultras arrive. Assuming said Terran is smart enough to not throw away all of his Marines to a fungal.
However, it's a very easy style to play -compared to standard Mutalisk play at least- and it's really efficient when you play on the lower levels. I remember enjoying great success with it pretty high in Diamond - until Jimpo and Merz completly shut it down. Then I practiced it a lot vs a friend of mine who mirrored their builds but we were unable to salvage it, so I switched back to normal Mutalisk play.
Thank you so much for posting these builds. I've been watching the stream and I love the style of play, and its pretty amazing that with these early infestor/upgrade builds you can play very relaxed (as I can tell by your voice and mechanics).
I think I'll completely switch over to these styles on the ladder even if it brings me to a losing streak. I'm already in a slump but I always watch the stream to inspire myself again for the swarm. Just vouching for this guy and if you're in doubt about these build orders, at least do yourself a favor and check them out.
First off, thanks for the strategy advice and build order. I have way more fun playing zerg than I do the other races, my only problem is that I'm just terrible with them. I just happen to suck less when I use protoss.
I tried the build a few times and I really like it. My economy is great when the expo gets up and running but I've had difficulty stopping early rushes. The first time I tried this I got mauled by zealots (evil, evil zealot rushes, they kill me every time regardless of if I'm P or Z: moral of the story, suck less). I then won my next one in a ZvZ and really loved the freedom it gave me to build units and tech while still having money to upgrade. However, just now I got dominated in another ZvZ. When I've lost, I've struggled to get enough units out to defend in time to beat the rushes but I'm sure I'll get faster with time.
One question I have is what is the ideal amount of infestors to get out early? I had like 3 or 4 but I did terrible on the fungal growth and got obliterated by the swarm of lings (and then mutas).
Regardless, thanks again for the build and I enjoy the stream as well, thanks!
On September 15 2010 08:22 cameronkrazie86 wrote: First off, thanks for the strategy advice and build order. I have way more fun playing zerg than I do the other races, my only problem is that I'm just terrible with them. I just happen to suck less when I use protoss.
I tried the build a few times and I really like it. My economy is great when the expo gets up and running but I've had difficulty stopping early rushes. The first time I tried this I got mauled by zealots (evil, evil zealot rushes, they kill me every time regardless of if I'm P or Z: moral of the story, suck less). I then won my next one in a ZvZ and really loved the freedom it gave me to build units and tech while still having money to upgrade. However, just now I got dominated in another ZvZ. When I've lost, I've struggled to get enough units out to defend in time to beat the rushes but I'm sure I'll get faster with time.
One question I have is what is the ideal amount of infestors to get out early? I had like 3 or 4 but I did terrible on the fungal growth and got obliterated by the swarm of lings (and then mutas).
Regardless, thanks again for the build and I enjoy the stream as well, thanks!
i get out about 2 or so pretty early but get more as i feel i need them. good fungals can do alot more than more fungals.
On September 15 2010 07:59 pbjsandwich wrote: this looks very effortless
thank you?
haha it was a compliment for sure
I don't mean effortless but I'm watching your stream recording and it doesn't seem as micro + macro intensive as ling, bling, muta but has the same effectiveness
On September 15 2010 08:27 pbjsandwich wrote: When do you power drones?
and is there a reason why you don't build extra hatches in your base?
Power drones constantly. Drone until you think its absolutely neccessary to stop. It shouldn't be a question of when do you power drones it should be a question of when do you NOT power drones : P
I've been practicing this build. I like it a lot and I think it's very effective vs baneling/speedling openings.
However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush.
I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas.
focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count.
Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner?
So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap.
I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond.
It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach.
On September 16 2010 01:06 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I've been practicing this build. I like it a lot and I think it's very effective vs baneling/speedling openings.
However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush.
I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas.
focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count.
Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner?
So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap.
I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond.
It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach.
My opponents are around 1k diamond. and ling bling does play directly into your hands. vs roaches you scout the roach warren, put up a "block" (i use a roach warren) at your ramp and put down 2-3 spines around it, hold with lings early and use fungal to keep roaches away from the spines and take them out. once your hydras pop out, it's super easy for you since you can outrange them. typically all of my builds involve surviving the first push and then rapidly gaining an advantage in one/two of three ways: Tech, Upgrade, Food(econ). with ZvZ it's tech+upgrade, with ZvT it's food/tech, with ZvP it's Tech+Upgrade. though i've been modifying my ZvP a bit and will update the OP once i have some resources to look at for people
The Expansion timing is all feel, when you feel safe you expand. it's almost solely up to that, and as such you expand earlier with more vision since you are safer and later with less vision because you don't know as much.
and do explain the build better, you are not entirely gas heavy. you are getting 2 infestors early to fungal, and then more when you feel like you need more, but mostly pumping drones/speedlings. the mid game consists of getting hydras off 2 base with the occasional infestor and mostly speedlings, the late game consists of 3 basing with ultralisks. the mid game you power ahead so much by denying expansions with speedlings and being immune to counters with good management of energy. The early game is the toughest to master of each build. once you can survive vs reapers, bunkers, marine all ins, MM, tank rush, thor rush, speedling mass, baneling rush, roach rush, 2 gate, fast void ray. you pretty much can get some solid advantages that carry you throughout the game.
On September 16 2010 01:15 ZaaaaaM wrote: you talk about a timing push in ZvP strat section, yet you do not describe when this should happen, or am I missing something?
I'll Pm him to fix that, you attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate, if you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push.
On September 16 2010 01:06 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I've been practicing this build. I like it a lot and I think it's very effective vs baneling/speedling openings.
However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush.
I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas.
focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count.
Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner?
So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap.
I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond.
It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach.
My opponents are around 1k diamond. and ling bling does play directly into your hands. vs roaches you scout the roach warren, put up a "block" (i use a roach warren) at your ramp and put down 2-3 spines around it, hold with lings early and use fungal to keep roaches away from the spines and take them out. once your hydras pop out, it's super easy for you since you can outrange them. typically all of my builds involve surviving the first push and then rapidly gaining an advantage in one/two of three ways: Tech, Upgrade, Food(econ). with ZvZ it's tech+upgrade, with ZvT it's food/tech, with ZvP it's Tech+Upgrade. though i've been modifying my ZvP a bit and will update the OP once i have some resources to look at for people
The Expansion timing is all feel, when you feel safe you expand. it's almost solely up to that, and as such you expand earlier with more vision since you are safer and later with less vision because you don't know as much.
and do explain the build better, you are not entirely gas heavy. you are getting 2 infestors early to fungal, and then more when you feel like you need more, but mostly pumping drones/speedlings. the mid game consists of getting hydras off 2 base with the occasional infestor and mostly speedlings, the late game consists of 3 basing with ultralisks. the mid game you power ahead so much by denying expansions with speedlings and being immune to counters with good management of energy. The early game is the toughest to master of each build. once you can survive vs reapers, bunkers, marine all ins, MM, tank rush, thor rush, speedling mass, baneling rush, roach rush, 2 gate, fast void ray. you pretty much can get some solid advantages that carry you throughout the game.
Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't mean to discount your opponents and definitely not your play, it's just the first few opponents seemed to not be totally on the ball (maybe thrown off by this new strat).
I'll take what you say into consideration as I continue testing it out. thanks again, and props for using infestors. I think they're one of the most fun units zerg has.
On September 16 2010 01:06 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I've been practicing this build. I like it a lot and I think it's very effective vs baneling/speedling openings.
However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush.
I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas.
focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count.
Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner?
So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap.
I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond.
It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach.
My opponents are around 1k diamond. and ling bling does play directly into your hands. vs roaches you scout the roach warren, put up a "block" (i use a roach warren) at your ramp and put down 2-3 spines around it, hold with lings early and use fungal to keep roaches away from the spines and take them out. once your hydras pop out, it's super easy for you since you can outrange them. typically all of my builds involve surviving the first push and then rapidly gaining an advantage in one/two of three ways: Tech, Upgrade, Food(econ). with ZvZ it's tech+upgrade, with ZvT it's food/tech, with ZvP it's Tech+Upgrade. though i've been modifying my ZvP a bit and will update the OP once i have some resources to look at for people
The Expansion timing is all feel, when you feel safe you expand. it's almost solely up to that, and as such you expand earlier with more vision since you are safer and later with less vision because you don't know as much.
and do explain the build better, you are not entirely gas heavy. you are getting 2 infestors early to fungal, and then more when you feel like you need more, but mostly pumping drones/speedlings. the mid game consists of getting hydras off 2 base with the occasional infestor and mostly speedlings, the late game consists of 3 basing with ultralisks. the mid game you power ahead so much by denying expansions with speedlings and being immune to counters with good management of energy. The early game is the toughest to master of each build. once you can survive vs reapers, bunkers, marine all ins, MM, tank rush, thor rush, speedling mass, baneling rush, roach rush, 2 gate, fast void ray. you pretty much can get some solid advantages that carry you throughout the game.
Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't mean to discount your opponents and definitely not your play, it's just the first few opponents seemed to not be totally on the ball (maybe thrown off by this new strat).
I'll take what you say into consideration as I continue testing it out. thanks again, and props for using infestors. I think they're one of the most fun units zerg has.
no offense taken! :D i do seem to get alot of easy wins due to people not adjusting to my infestors. but eh free wins are wins i guess.
Oh and with ZvZ feel free to delay your pool if you scout early and see him not doing somethign crazy i developed the build while peopel were still 6 pooling me in diamond. so the 12 pool is kind of a reaction to that i just haven't adjusted it for the lack of cheese now.
specifically watched your replay: you had 6 larva that remained unmorphed for about 30 seconds after seeing the roaches, that could have helped greatly, in addition to getting a few more lings, your best panic move in that situation would be to run back the lings, and turn them all to banes, let your lings that you would make pop and fight the roaches for a little then kill about 7 banes on them. they will live with about 20 health each, but 7 banelings deal a hell of alot more than 7 lings to roaches.
and your queen + backup lings can easily handle the roaches. you also ran away from his base before seeing roach or baneling, thats pretty important, if he makes lings, extractor him and buy time to scout for that roach or banelign nest. also you went for +1 attack. which you had no basis for, you get +1 armor in case of a no scout on the roaches. but yeah +1 attack workedo ut wlel there, and making banes to fight the roaches isn't cost efficient, but sacrificing efficiency to avoid dying = good even if not ideal. and banes would help vs his ling followup as well. and especially that block by the ramp would help greatly. just the lack of sight REALLY messed w/ you
as your lair finished you are at 400/400 with nothing being researched, yeah you only had like 50 seconds left in the game but an infestor pit should be going down as well as getting +1 armor for +1/+1.
On September 16 2010 01:15 ZaaaaaM wrote: you talk about a timing push in ZvP strat section, yet you do not describe when this should happen, or am I missing something?
I'll Pm him to fix that, you attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate, if you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push.
Already on it, PX. I'm going to be reformatting the OP and making it look prettier as well soon.
Also, could you give me a more exact build order, perhaps up to 20-30 food, if they don't do anything funky?
Can you exactly clarify when to expand on ZvP? Sort of a dumb question but I've been doing so poorly against toss for some reason and anytime I see a 2gate I sort of panic and expand really late.
On September 16 2010 08:17 shindigs wrote: Can you exactly clarify when to expand on ZvP? Sort of a dumb question but I've been doing so poorly against toss for some reason and anytime I see a 2gate I sort of panic and expand really late.
ideally you would FE and not be harrassed. in ZvP i'm not exactly an expert. but yeah in ZvP you should definitely not get your hatch any later than when you see a cyber core go out (out of a 2 gate). pretty much if you scout cyber core, get a hatch down?. that timing might be off by a little bit (in the two soon direction) but if you can judge from about there it should be good.
On September 16 2010 08:17 shindigs wrote: Can you exactly clarify when to expand on ZvP? Sort of a dumb question but I've been doing so poorly against toss for some reason and anytime I see a 2gate I sort of panic and expand really late.
ideally you would FE and not be harrassed. in ZvP i'm not exactly an expert. but yeah in ZvP you should definitely not get your hatch any later than when you see a cyber core go out (out of a 2 gate). pretty much if you scout cyber core, get a hatch down?. that timing might be off by a little bit (in the two soon direction) but if you can judge from about there it should be good.
Alright thanks. I think I rather expand too soon then too late right now.
Would you recommend just going with 14 pool 15 expand? Or maybe 14 hatch, 13 pool, 12 gas (same as terran). The main theme in all of these builds seem to just be fast upgrades and fast infestors (which has worked amazingly for me against T and Z btw).
14 hatch is not a new build. it has been discussed in depth in past threads. 14 hatch was an extremely strong opener during beta because not too many people were good at the game (read: no one ever used reapers). however, now, 14 hatch fails completely to early bunker or 2gate. believe me, i used to 14 hatch all the time, but then one day, it just stopped being useful.
Beating reapers and bunkers just takes practice. doing the right thing at the right time, knowing when it's coming and when to pull drones to kill the scv and bunker and when to attack
no amount of micro or practice can save you from reaper bunker. reaper kill zerglings so god damn fast, you will never be able to produce enough zerglings to beat it. you can try to save up your zerglings but your expansion will be long gone by then. pulling off drones puts you immensely behind, especially if your enemy already has the economy to pump out 2 reapers/cycle.
if you live, its because your enemy has extremely poor timing, micro, and general game ability.
On September 16 2010 08:17 shindigs wrote: Can you exactly clarify when to expand on ZvP? Sort of a dumb question but I've been doing so poorly against toss for some reason and anytime I see a 2gate I sort of panic and expand really late.
ideally you would FE and not be harrassed. in ZvP i'm not exactly an expert. but yeah in ZvP you should definitely not get your hatch any later than when you see a cyber core go out (out of a 2 gate). pretty much if you scout cyber core, get a hatch down?. that timing might be off by a little bit (in the two soon direction) but if you can judge from about there it should be good.
Alright thanks. I think I rather expand too soon then too late right now.
Would you recommend just going with 14 pool 15 expand? Or maybe 14 hatch, 13 pool, 12 gas (same as terran). The main theme in all of these builds seem to just be fast upgrades and fast infestors (which has worked amazingly for me against T and Z btw).
well again still working on ZvP builds, my current build is made just to punish the 2 gate and transition out to stop a 4 gate. BUT if you want to have a set food expand (instead of whenever your constant scouting sees a cyber core) i'd go 14/14/16 gas pool hatch. remember that more important than almost anything as zerg is complete sight of the map, just as much as you can manage, watch towers, overlords, spreading lings out, everything.
On September 16 2010 09:13 a176 wrote: 14 hatch is not a new build. it has been discussed in depth in past threads. 14 hatch was an extremely strong opener during beta because not too many people were good at the game (read: no one ever used reapers). however, now, 14 hatch fails completely to early bunker or 2gate. believe me, i used to 14 hatch all the time, but then one day, it just stopped being useful.
Beating reapers and bunkers just takes practice. doing the right thing at the right time, knowing when it's coming and when to pull drones to kill the scv and bunker and when to attack
no amount of micro or practice can save you from reaper bunker. reaper kill zerglings so god damn fast, you will never be able to produce enough zerglings to beat it. you can try to save up your zerglings but your expansion will be long gone by then. pulling off drones puts you immensely behind, especially if your enemy already has the economy to pump out 2 reapers/cycle.
if you live, its because your enemy has extremely poor timing, micro, and general game ability.
people used reapers in beta before they got nerfed and then vs protoss and now back to vsZ again. i played in beta since the start. the threads mean nothing when someone with actual practice against it has done it consistantly and says you just need to have alot of practice vs it. i've told my stream i've lost countless games practicing the vs reaper. now most terrans don't even get the bunker up vs me if they try. it's a hell of alot of spotting and experience that goes into to beating it. and pulling 2 drones does not put me immensely behind even if my opponent has 2 barracks. but thank you for your input, people correctly have identified the hardest thing to learn about the build (vs reaper) and i actually spent a long time dedicating myself to finding how to beat it (read about 60 hours)
I've seen you do it on your stream PX, but (and I know it's a lot of work so I understand if you don't have time) could you put together a pack of like ~5 replays where a (Good) terran reaper rushes you? It wont be the same as your stream cause you're amazing at doing it live and explaining why/what your doing, but it would be good to have an idea of placement/etc.
I lost stupidly to a lower level Terran last night cuz his first bio push came at 8:00 and I could only get one infestor out. And not making enough lings. I was only able to FG once and rest of my stuff died. Normally, I would have ling and bling to murder that size of bio in 2 seconds. Seeing dice played so relaxed made me thinking I could do it too. Then I went on to check how fast I can get 2 infesters out in yabot. It was 8:30. I feel I'm very tight on the spot wihtout much to deal with the push. What do you thunk well wrong?
Also do you have good tips on how How to do a good FG? It's kind of hard on muta cuz they run away so fast.
I've tried this style a few times against ~900 diamond terrans without any success. They invariably scout the fast expand and do an early bio push. I tech as fast as I can but at best get out 1 infestor and together with lings, that's insufficient to hold the front. I did watch the vod but in all his examples, his opponent attacked relatively late. I'll give it a few more goes but I think this dies badly to early timing pushes.
ive been working on this build since i saw xizors stream a few days ago. it goes againts my normal style of play which is more of fast harrassment with muta/bling, but infestors have really grown on me since then, i like the feeling of being able to defend wtih such a bare bones crew. two base ultra would of seemed ridiculous to me a few days ago, but it can be very powerful given enough time to tech.
it does not feel strong against protoss unfortuately(unless they let you mass ultras), but againts zerg and terran, it can work well. im still working the kinks out of the build, mainly for team play, but i think this style of play has potential.
to the people having trouble with early bio pushes, did you scout he was early bio pushing you? if you did, did you run your infestor outside of yoru base and fungal him in transit and attack? you know when he is the most spread out? or did you wait for him to ball up at your base? in addition did you scout him moving out with a ling spotter? did you notice you wouldn't be able to hold based on the info you recieved from your overseer? and did you make spine crawlers once you saw he was going to push soon.
Hey Xizor was watching your replay-pack ZvTs and notice you pretty much always teched hive around 12minutes, but you couldn't really afford any ultras untill the 15-16minute mark. Don't you think it would be better to perhaps throw down a second Evo sooner instead and delay the Hive tech untill 14minutes or so (gives you time for ultra den and the armor upgrade)? Also I've noticed you sit around with a ton of minerals even tho you're only at 110-120 food (with larva to spend), since it will be the gas restricting you from making more ultras later wouldn't it be better to keep making lings/drones.
Love your style of play, it's alway so fun seeing people ragequit cause they're contained and starved for resources. BTW will you be streaming anything today?
I have been using a variation of this build in all my ZvP and ZvT matches to pretty good success. Regarding the early bio pushes, you need to make sure you have banelings, plain and simple. That and also make sure you have a spotter and lots of forewarning. I have been getting my infestor pretty early, but not at the expense of a baneling nest. The real beauty of this build is that you get baneling speed really fast too because your lair is out so early. I basically mass speedlings/blings with 1-2 infestors early and have been able to hold most bio pushes. That is not to say that they aren't often close....but generally I am able to hold them and keep my expansion. The most important thing is to not get too excited/scared and attack with poor numbers/position. Use that FG to force a good position for your army and blow em up.
Now, my bigger problem has been holding 4-gates and/or subsequent colossi/stalker/zealot attacks. NP is a joke, or at least in my hands. I'm thinking of trying a roach/bling/corruptor build against protoss, using the fast lair strat. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
On September 17 2010 02:01 PrinceXizor wrote: to the people having trouble with early bio pushes, did you scout he was early bio pushing you? if you did, did you run your infestor outside of yoru base and fungal him in transit and attack? you know when he is the most spread out? or did you wait for him to ball up at your base? in addition did you scout him moving out with a ling spotter? did you notice you wouldn't be able to hold based on the info you recieved from your overseer? and did you make spine crawlers once you saw he was going to push soon.
Yes, I scouted 3 rax.
No. My infestor wasn't pop until he's in my nat.
I FG him when he was in a ball so I could get all of them in one FG. Was I wrong? I only had 1 infestor at the time
I saw him move out with a ling spotter. I thought I could have a few more infestors before he got to me but I was wrong.
No spinecrawlers.
Would you make baneling nest ahead if you were in this situation? or just speedlings?
Against an early bio ball, I think a couple of spines is mandatory. There isn't enough larva or food to build enough zerglings to hold off the push. If bio comes later, then you have enough infestors to FG him.
FG has two components, the damage over time and the immobilization. If you FG him while he is in your base, he can still shoot stuff. Better is to FG away from your base. He takes the full damage without being able to shoot anything. The video shows a neat trick to get the marines to ball up, by sending out a couple of lings.
You can have 2 infestors out by 8:30 and another one on the way (if there wasn't any need for ling speed, else you'd have just one with the second one coming at around 9. I don't even feel the need for blings, after 2 FGs his army is mostly red so ~20-30 lings will mop it up NP.
On September 17 2010 02:41 noggster wrote: Hey Xizor was watching your replay-pack ZvTs and notice you pretty much always teched hive around 12minutes, but you couldn't really afford any ultras untill the 15-16minute mark. Don't you think it would be better to perhaps throw down a second Evo sooner instead and delay the Hive tech untill 14minutes or so (gives you time for ultra den and the armor upgrade)? Also I've noticed you sit around with a ton of minerals even tho you're only at 110-120 food (with larva to spend), since it will be the gas restricting you from making more ultras later wouldn't it be better to keep making lings/drones.
Love your style of play, it's alway so fun seeing people ragequit cause they're contained and starved for resources. BTW will you be streaming anything today?
Yeah i've been working on my macro. it would be better to make ling or drones i agree :D that was just bad play by me. i get hive early for adrenal glands even if i can't get ultras right away, sometimes i squeeze out an ultra or two earlier just to block. it's more of that it is there if i need it.
Yeah contain + drain is a very fun way of playing and it's pretty much what i do every game.
I FG him when he was in a ball so I could get all of them in one FG. Was I wrong? I only had 1 infestor at the time
I saw him move out with a ling spotter. I thought I could have a few more infestors before he got to me but I was wrong.
No spinecrawlers.
Would you make baneling nest ahead if you were in this situation? or just speedlings?
Well speedings and a spine (as he moved out) along with an evo blocker. (an evo chamber put near your spine crawler to be a target and restrict movement inward.) can hold it off. if it's one of those all marine pushes (which you should be able to scout with your overseer) then you can just stall until fungal hits then run away sac the spine + evo in order to attack with lings after the fungal ends.
i can get the lair up around 4:03, lair takes 80 seconds so thats 5:23, and infestor comes out 130 seconds after that, so 7:33 is when your infestor can be there at the earliest, the latest you want it out is 8:03 vs any sort of early push. you delay it vs reapers mostly. or if you make a mistake.
I like this style a lot. Fast hive, ultras on 2 bases, crackling abuse, heavy spellcaster use, and using strategy/tactics to make up for less than ideal mechanics. Reminds me of Tsunami's style from the early BW days. Well done sir.
On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote: this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural)
I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions.
HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9!
Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P
Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base.
1. This thread is awesome.
2. The 2gate reference above is not a part of my ZvT build. it was a random question i got. i'm not the best vs Protoss (worst matchup by far), and so i'm still experimenting i do a different openning vs protoss. and for fungal growthing + NP templar it's very hard to do, and i don't bother to pull it off against micro-players. it works vs the macro style protoss that just want alot of stuff and don't micro as well. and it's good as a surprise with burrow but thats it.
3. I scout on 9 specifically for reaper or banshee timing. also i get an overseer (if i'm playing well) as soon as my lair finishes to keep scouting throughout the game.
Hi Prince,
What specifically do you look for? I lack the information necessary to make good decisions... if I scout on 9 and see gas, does that always (well, unless they are being wacky) mean reapers/banshee? Or is it early double gas (how early?) for banshees, early single gas means reapers? I'm woefully ignorant about T build orders (I'm more familiar with toss, but not great...)
On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote: this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural)
I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions.
HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9!
Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P
Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base.
1. This thread is awesome.
2. The 2gate reference above is not a part of my ZvT build. it was a random question i got. i'm not the best vs Protoss (worst matchup by far), and so i'm still experimenting i do a different openning vs protoss. and for fungal growthing + NP templar it's very hard to do, and i don't bother to pull it off against micro-players. it works vs the macro style protoss that just want alot of stuff and don't micro as well. and it's good as a surprise with burrow but thats it.
3. I scout on 9 specifically for reaper or banshee timing. also i get an overseer (if i'm playing well) as soon as my lair finishes to keep scouting throughout the game.
Hi Prince,
What specifically do you look for? I lack the information necessary to make good decisions... if I scout on 9 and see gas, does that always (well, unless they are being wacky) mean reapers/banshee? Or is it early double gas (how early?) for banshees, early single gas means reapers? I'm woefully ignorant about T build orders (I'm more familiar with toss, but not great...)
Thanks!
when you scout on 9 you can tell reapers by gas earlier than normal, and banshees by a second gas earlier than normal. the best way to get a hang of it is watch replays of when it happens vs you until you see the trend on gas timings gas timing is one of the 2 only useful reasons for a 9 scout, the 2nd is slight harrass of the construction
On September 17 2010 21:39 PrinceXizor wrote: when you scout on 9 you can tell reapers by gas earlier than normal, and banshees by a second gas earlier than normal. the best way to get a hang of it is watch replays of when it happens vs you until you see the trend on gas timings gas timing is one of the 2 only useful reasons for a 9 scout, the 2nd is slight harrass of the construction
One thing that helped me identify opponent builds was to write down the common ones for each race and use each one myself a few times in custom games and team games. I think it really helps not only with recognizing the builds, but also with understanding the capabilities and weaknesses of the builds.
9 scout 9 OL 14 hatch 14 pool 13 gas 16 Queen at nat, Lair at main as soon as 100 Gas 18 OL, 2 pairs of lings to 20/20
Correct?
When should I start 2nd Gas? as soon as I start Lair? I saw you sometimes start late sometimes early without particular reason (or so it seemed)
i get the 2nd OL while pool is being made (recently). around 16 as well, and the 2nd gas i'm playing with the timing a bit (which is why you see me start it at seemingly random times) i'm just playing around with when i can get stuff and when i can't. i'm liking at about 25% lair currently.
Hey, watched your stream, really awesome, great decision making. I think it's a travesty my ranking is even close to yours, lol. Once your mechanics get better you're going to be absolutely amazing.
On September 18 2010 05:23 flanksteak wrote: Hey, watched your stream, really awesome, great decision making. I think it's a travesty my ranking is even close to yours, lol. Once your mechanics get better you're going to be absolutely amazing.
Thanks!. also there is another replay pack available (9 more replays) at the link provided in the OP
Just wanted to post and say thanks, I switched from T to Z a few weeks ago and was having a hard time. Your stream really helped me out and gave me a lot of ideas that I'm trying to implement in my own play. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for your awesome stream helped me a lot...and i love infestors now :D
I still have some problems with early mm pressure...tried with FE and without..but its always kinda easier with some banelings because at the time they push i only have 1 infestor... Guess i need some work on the timing. Thanks for the new Replays
On September 19 2010 06:44 Horgath wrote: Thanks for your awesome stream helped me a lot...and i love infestors now :D
I still have some problems with early mm pressure...tried with FE and without..but its always kinda easier with some banelings because at the time they push i only have 1 infestor... Guess i need some work on the timing. Thanks for the new Replays
Being able to judge when you need your spines and the placement of them and using your queens effectively in combat while keeping them alive is pretty key to surviving that push. it takes some effort and practice but it comes with time. also putting an evo chamber up front to absorb some auto firing and to make a target to attack (and maybe getting broodlings) helps alot with the push, it's kind of a sacrificial evo but if it lives you get to double upgrade.
Thank you very much for the streams and this thread, I'm just a casual Gold player (= I suck), but I've had more success with this vs Terrans than with muta/b/ling, except versus the few who are just plain abusive (Tanks on certain maps, chokes and turtling makes ultras useless, mass banshee with vikings sniping Overseers.) Not doing so hot against high Platinum/occasional low Diamond protoss though, if they play solid, big balls make Zerglings and Ultras weak on almost all maps, and Infestors plain seem bad against Protoss, as FG isn't that strong vs shielded and NP is a joke, especially vs blink stalkers.
Anyhow, my questions are about your choices regarding upgrades, and on how to actually attack a turtle with this. It seems, even in matches where you mostly rely on hydra+infestor micro, you pump mostly melee attacks. Granted upgraded Lings and Banelings own, and if/when you eventually get Ultras they'll be significantly better, but isn't Carapace a better option for Zerg when fighting air/going Hydra?
Also, if I recall right, you often get the Infestor +energy upgrade before even getting an infestor in some matches, even when you really need early infestors vs early aggression. Why? I understand it's good, like the similar thing is for HTs, but is the extra energy worth delaying the first infestor? You also get Adrenal Glands very often and quickly, even when you're not really using huge amounts of Zerglings. It strikes me as an perfect example of how Terran inexplicably have easier/cheaper upgrades, we get a 200m200g tier 3 upgrade for a relatively small dps increase for our most basic unit, which isn't as useful in lategame with surrounds being impossible, while Terran gets much stronger stuff like Stimpacks and Marine Shields as early as Tech Lab (tier 1 I'd say) for 100m100g, which is also far ahead of protoss Charge/Blink for 200m200g/150m150g tier 2.
Also, attacking turtles with this seems impossible. Good players notice Nydus Worms, and 2-3 Siege Tanks/equivalents behind a walled-off choke pretty much deters any ling/ultra/hydra attack. How do you actually end games? Starve them?
On September 12 2010 06:29 StarBrift wrote: I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
I dunno if this was addressed already (3 pages is too much reading for one with A.D.D. as persistent as I) but they'll have speed by the time you have reaper speed. If you, as a terran player with reapers, don't have speed and they don't have speed, then the creep will give the lings the move speed advantage, and will shut down kiting until your reapers get speed.
Of course, if you outmicro the lings with cliff jumping, then you can still pull off effective harassing. But if the Zerg can pull off the relatively basic micro required to chase, flank, and surround the reapers, then he's golden, he's shut down the early reapers, etc. etc. etc.
And as for bunker rushes, if the Zerg sees early signs of a bunker rush (proxy rax, dropped scv count, a bunker being constructed in the Zerg main are all nice signs) then he simply won't place down the expansion. Or, depending on how early he scouts and how confident he's feeling, he might anyways.
I'm sorry but that is simply not true. A 9 gas 9 rax reaper will start speed at the same time as the first reaper. There is no chance in hell that you have lingspeed anywhere close to finished when reaper speed is finished. Not when going 14 hatch. as I said the firest reaper will arrive before your first lings spawn, so what are you going to do vs a bunker then?
On September 19 2010 08:08 Drome wrote: Thank you very much for the streams and this thread, I'm just a casual Gold player (= I suck), but I've had more success with this vs Terrans than with muta/b/ling, except versus the few who are just plain abusive (Tanks on certain maps, chokes and turtling makes ultras useless, mass banshee with vikings sniping Overseers.) Not doing so hot against high Platinum/occasional low Diamond protoss though, if they play solid, big balls make Zerglings and Ultras weak on almost all maps, and Infestors plain seem bad against Protoss, as FG isn't that strong vs shielded and NP is a joke, especially vs blink stalkers.
Anyhow, my questions are about your choices regarding upgrades, and on how to actually attack a turtle with this. It seems, even in matches where you mostly rely on hydra+infestor micro, you pump mostly melee attacks. Granted upgraded Lings and Banelings own, and if/when you eventually get Ultras they'll be significantly better, but isn't Carapace a better option for Zerg when fighting air/going Hydra?
Also, if I recall right, you often get the Infestor +energy upgrade before even getting an infestor in some matches, even when you really need early infestors vs early aggression. Why? I understand it's good, like the similar thing is for HTs, but is the extra energy worth delaying the first infestor? You also get Adrenal Glands very often and quickly, even when you're not really using huge amounts of Zerglings. It strikes me as an perfect example of how Terran inexplicably have easier/cheaper upgrades, we get a 200m200g tier 3 upgrade for a relatively small dps increase for our most basic unit, which isn't as useful in lategame with surrounds being impossible, while Terran gets much stronger stuff like Stimpacks and Marine Shields as early as Tech Lab (tier 1 I'd say) for 100m100g, which is also far ahead of protoss Charge/Blink for 200m200g/150m150g tier 2.
Also, attacking turtles with this seems impossible. Good players notice Nydus Worms, and 2-3 Siege Tanks/equivalents behind a walled-off choke pretty much deters any ling/ultra/hydra attack. How do you actually end games? Starve them?
Sorry if this has been answered before.
I win most my games by containing them keeping them on 1 or 2 bases at most and then keep killing them whenever they leave their base. starve them out and make them end up with nothing. if i feel like i NEED to siege them i get broodlords.
I get the energy upgrade because infestors regenerate energy slower than .83 per second meaning the energy upgrade gets you fungal faster than making the infestor earlier and waiting. it also makes infestors relavant the moment they produce allowing me to defend with them quickly in emergencies.
vs Protoss infestors are pretty much there to stop zealots from hurting your lings and to force them into giving larger surface areas to attack them with. also you can use it to keep stalkers in separte groups to take out individually and to minimalize the effect of blink vs zerglings. it takes very good sense of positioning to use infestors to their fullest vs protoss and so if you haven't worked them out too well yet, don't bother with them except to practice.
I get the Melee/Armor upgrades because i need to use lings to protect early on, and rely on ultras to defeat lategame armies. I get missile last because they are the least critical aspect of my army, i do get both melee and armor but +2 melee is pretty big for lings which is why i rush for that sometimes also +2 banelings 1 shotting workers and things +2 is just a big upgrade.
On September 13 2010 10:58 Thoro wrote: Ahahah, I was totally in chat. Fun times.
On September 12 2010 06:29 StarBrift wrote: I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
I dunno if this was addressed already (3 pages is too much reading for one with A.D.D. as persistent as I) but they'll have speed by the time you have reaper speed. If you, as a terran player with reapers, don't have speed and they don't have speed, then the creep will give the lings the move speed advantage, and will shut down kiting until your reapers get speed.
Of course, if you outmicro the lings with cliff jumping, then you can still pull off effective harassing. But if the Zerg can pull off the relatively basic micro required to chase, flank, and surround the reapers, then he's golden, he's shut down the early reapers, etc. etc. etc.
And as for bunker rushes, if the Zerg sees early signs of a bunker rush (proxy rax, dropped scv count, a bunker being constructed in the Zerg main are all nice signs) then he simply won't place down the expansion. Or, depending on how early he scouts and how confident he's feeling, he might anyways.
I'm sorry but that is simply not true. A 9 gas 9 rax reaper will start speed at the same time as the first reaper. There is no chance in hell that you have lingspeed anywhere close to finished when reaper speed is finished. Not when going 14 hatch. as I said the firest reaper will arrive before your first lings spawn, so what are you going to do vs a bunker then?
considering i scout on 9 i'll see that 9 gas 9 rax reaper easily and be able to respond as I want to whether that is pool before hatch or whatever. vs the bunker there i do the exact same thing i always do and kill the building scv. and stall out the bunker. it's really not difficult to defend vs reapers when you have alot of experience vs it. and a cheesy reaper rush should be dealt with the same way all cheese is, deal with when it happens and not sacrifice a very effective build because it might have issue vs a cheese.
After playing more games using this vs T and P, I lost so many. I'm so not used to doing this. There's one game I lost to mass hellions. I couldn't keep up with infestors. Yeah I got to FG a few times but they don't die and keep on coming. Lost a lot of drones cuz I can't micro well.
Another game when the Terran just mass Ravens. I had no idea how to deal with auto turrets.
I went back to my old style, but I did learn a lot from you play.
Really enjoyed the replays and the concept; I've been trying to incorporate the infestor use more into my play. Prince, I was just curious if you'd ever teched to broodlords rather than ultralisks, and if and what made you decide they weren't worth it? Is it the relative lack of anti-air in the build, or maybe the extraordinary amount of time required to get to them that makes it not feasible? The combination of FG and broodlord range just seems so tempting.
I've gotten decent at repelling reapers, but now it's the rine/tank timing push. If I don't catch them out in the middle (while getting out an insanely fast infester) it's gg.
I tried this strategy a couple of times yesterday vs terran, and I've got to say it really works. I'm a ~700 Diamond and I had great success with this build. I think terrans have come to expect mutas/lings out of zerg so much that they tend to over turtle which this strat really punishes. By the time the terran usually pushes I have enough vision to know when he starts his march. I can usually meet him a ways out with infestor and fungal and run back. The first push is almost always easily defended and after that I have ultras and cracklings on the way.
My main concern with this build is that I don't think you can punish early expansion play at all. If the terran chooses to fast(ish) expand I would have nothing to stop it.
I'm very impressed with how well you play Xizor, considering how relatively weak your mechanics are. Keep up the good work, I'm learning lots from you.
On September 21 2010 04:38 JrK wrote: I've gotten decent at repelling reapers, but now it's the rine/tank timing push. If I don't catch them out in the middle (while getting out an insanely fast infester) it's gg.
My experience is that marine tank comes out fairly late. (and also you DO scout it with an overseer), and by that i mean late enough for an infestor, another way to slow it down is to attempt some ling runbys which forces them to delay themselves a little bit. if you see it's a fast marine tank push (those typically have 1 tank and 8-10 marines) that can be handled with speedlings and a spine crawler alone. if it's slow (2-3 tanks and 20ish marines) then you have infestors. keep practicing. once you master defending the early stuff the build pretty much falls into place itself and it becomes pretty much a win for you if you play correctly.
On September 21 2010 04:34 BadassHamster wrote: Really enjoyed the replays and the concept; I've been trying to incorporate the infestor use more into my play. Prince, I was just curious if you'd ever teched to broodlords rather than ultralisks, and if and what made you decide they weren't worth it? Is it the relative lack of anti-air in the build, or maybe the extraordinary amount of time required to get to them that makes it not feasible? The combination of FG and broodlord range just seems so tempting.
Brood lords are good, very good. but ultralisk just decimate any ground that they are hard to look away from, i get broods if i have to break the enemy base and ultralisks won't work (they are making alot of blocker buildings ect) it's mostly preference and the fact that i get the + melee upgrades which help ultralisks alot more thanbroods. (if i chose to have my mid game be mutalisk harrass then i would go broods. it's really another option, but one i haven't explored fully and so i'm staying with what i know works.
On September 21 2010 05:19 spraynard wrote: I tried this strategy a couple of times yesterday vs terran, and I've got to say it really works. I'm a ~700 Diamond and I had great success with this build. I think terrans have come to expect mutas/lings out of zerg so much that they tend to over turtle which this strat really punishes. By the time the terran usually pushes I have enough vision to know when he starts his march. I can usually meet him a ways out with infestor and fungal and run back. The first push is almost always easily defended and after that I have ultras and cracklings on the way.
My main concern with this build is that I don't think you can punish early expansion play at all. If the terran chooses to fast(ish) expand I would have nothing to stop it.
I'm very impressed with how well you play Xizor, considering how relatively weak your mechanics are. Keep up the good work, I'm learning lots from you.
if T fast expands, they will have done it slower than you. and you get to infestors for free. pretty much you just pump drones and saturate both expos before they even get their 2nd up. and then you can win a macro game (with an easy third on certain maps) or you can go infestor to mutalisk to brood lord to punish them expanding in the mid game. though you could skip a drone pump and get about 20 lings to go punish the expo. if you scout it. i'm not sure which would be the better, but mutalisk play probably would be.
On September 21 2010 04:34 BadassHamster wrote: Really enjoyed the replays and the concept; I've been trying to incorporate the infestor use more into my play. Prince, I was just curious if you'd ever teched to broodlords rather than ultralisks, and if and what made you decide they weren't worth it? Is it the relative lack of anti-air in the build, or maybe the extraordinary amount of time required to get to them that makes it not feasible? The combination of FG and broodlord range just seems so tempting.
the fact that i get the + melee upgrades which help ultralisks alot more thanbroods.
Not disagreeing here, just pointing out that melee upgrades significantly help Broodlords, because of the Broodlings. I still like Ultras better, just saying.
On September 21 2010 05:36 daywiss wrote: when are you going to upload some vods again xizor? also what time do you normally stream?
I stream generally around 5 PM my time and around 11 Pm my time. though typically i will put the next time i am streaming (if i know) above the stream on ustream for people. I'll be uploading as I play and stream and also for replay review, lately i've been busy with school and travel so i haven't played as much sorry!
EDIT: yeah +1 melee helps broodlings alot i agree but not as much as ultras. but i wouldn't get + armor if i was getting brood lords like i would if i was getting ultralisks. this is why sometimes you'll see me just get +melee and then scout heavy mech and decide for ultras and start +armor.
Well I decided I needed to learn infestors. So, after reading this thread and watching your stream. I decided to give it a shot. And teched to infestors EVERY game.
Unfortunately, I lost a lot of games. lol
I went from mid diamond to gold! I swear I lost about 15 games in a row at one stage. And I'm pretty sure my hidden rating was lower haha. I was playing some bronze and silver. They were mostly protoss.
Finally I started winning after a long learning period and I'm back to where I was, but a lot better player. I like using infestors against Terran, it is good to punish mech. And am still improving and can see a lot or potential versuz zerg. But protoss, fast teching with any sort of timing push just owns me. Unless they were to slow to attack and I could get ultras.
Thanks a lot, infestors are a lot of fun and I still have a ways to go.
Do you think its possible hold the first mm rush with just lings a couple of spines and the one infestor thats gonna be out by the time the push occurs? Or do you need banes? I am only asking cause i am really trying to cut back on gas for my fast infestor, but wanna be safe to begin with. I really like your BO and i am trying it out on very hard AI since the computer will always push with a mm ball quite soon into the game, so it really helps me practice it.
On September 26 2010 02:40 DamVii wrote: Do you think its possible hold the first mm rush with just lings a couple of spines and the one infestor thats gonna be out by the time the push occurs? Or do you need banes? I am only asking cause i am really trying to cut back on gas for my fast infestor, but wanna be safe to begin with. I really like your BO and i am trying it out on very hard AI since the computer will always push with a mm ball quite soon into the game, so it really helps me practice it.
i definitely think you can, you may need a second pump of lings and you definitely will need to learn the best spine+ ling placement on each map on each base. but it can definitely be done.
On September 26 2010 07:53 PrinceXizor wrote: i definitely think you can, you may need a second pump of lings and you definitely will need to learn the best spine+ ling placement on each map on each base. but it can definitely be done.
Ah ye, i just went back and watched your archives and found exactly what i was looking for, thanks.
vs Protoss, the build focuses on a timing push against s 2-gate. In light of patch 1.1, is 2-gate an issue any more? Should the build be more FE, like vs Terran? With two crawlers at the nat, I'm able to hold back zealots. Early stalker balls is the only thing I have trouble with.
On September 28 2010 02:42 Hammurabio wrote: vs Protoss, the build focuses on a timing push against s 2-gate. In light of patch 1.1, is 2-gate an issue any more? Should the build be more FE, like vs Terran? With two crawlers at the nat, I'm able to hold back zealots. Early stalker balls is the only thing I have trouble with.
still working on a vP build. i don't have many/reliable Practice partners that can play protoss and so i'm a bit lacking on practice. when i get something i'll try to make sure it's here
Prince I'm wanting to update the OP but I have no clue where to begin, just copy paste the responses you want to be included under each category, vT, vZ, vP and I'll get right on it, thanks!
On October 12 2010 01:52 Invol2ver wrote: Prince are you planning on streaming again soon? You disappeared =[
Posts like this should go into my stream thread. and not a thread explaining my BOs. but i'm still around i have some new vod sand stuff its midterm week, give me a break. EDIT: stream thread is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146843.
Also i have 3 replay packs now (total of 34 replays between the three) so you guys can watch alot more games.
Thought you guys might find this interesting. I was watching an Idra replay and he seems to be rocking this exact same playstyle against T. Early expand into Infestors into early Hive with Cracklings.
On October 13 2010 00:49 twofold wrote: Thought you guys might find this interesting. I was watching an Idra replay and he seems to be rocking this exact same playstyle against T. Early expand into Infestors into early Hive with Cracklings.
Also - thanks to TLOBrian and PrinceXizor for keeping this thread updated and informative.
and artosis is using a very similar style in ZvZ. It's not difficult to come up with this style, you just list zergs weaknesses:
Requires a larger economy Unable to effectively scout in tier 1 Units are generally not as useful until lair tech. A need for efficient units in order to not die. Vulnerable to fast moving harrassment.
And then find ways to beat them:
Fast expand to get a better economy quickly tech to tier 2 to be able to see whats coming have lair upgrades and units available infestors are one of the most efficient units for zerg infestors also can completely end fast movement bases harrassment.