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LooseMoose
United States184 Posts
When do you guys typically go for your 2nd queen? I guess I'm getting my too early because I run into larva build up problems and have 8+ sitting around and not enough resources to use them... anyone else have a set time they decide to get their queen? Another thing... if i'm sitting on extra resources is it best to just dump them into a few spine crawlers? | ||
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AdahnSC
United States376 Posts
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Spiffeh
United States830 Posts
I've gone for the initial larva since I go 14 pool 16 hatch and need those extra units for protection most of the time. | ||
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Raneth
England527 Posts
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IKenshinI
United States132 Posts
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EnderW
United States170 Posts
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LooseMoose
United States184 Posts
On May 18 2010 14:09 EnderW wrote: I usually don't do this build, but when I do i also do my second queen right after the first and spawn a creep tumor w/ my first queen. Just curious.. why not do this build? If there's no threat of an all-in cheese why avoid this build if it will clearly give you an advantage? And thanks for all the feedback guys. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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EnderW
United States170 Posts
On May 18 2010 14:19 LooseMoose wrote: Just curious.. why not do this build? If there's no threat of an all-in cheese why avoid this build if it will clearly give you an advantage? And thanks for all the feedback guys. I don't do this build because, there is never no threat of all-in cheese. I feel if I can survive I can outplay my opponent, so therefore I go for survival first and foremost. I also find that I have more control over the flow of the game w/ a 13 pool, and I enjoy being the one in control. Edit: just for the record, i have 1700+ plat accounts on US, Asia, and EU, and I still get 7 pooled, proxy gated, proxy 7 rax w/ bunker at the bottom of my cliff, and all sorts of other cheese done all the time | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On May 18 2010 14:19 LooseMoose wrote: Just curious.. why not do this build? If there's no threat of an all-in cheese why avoid this build if it will clearly give you an advantage? And thanks for all the feedback guys. This build is unsafe on Steppes of War (except debatably against Terran), close (ground) positions on Metalopolis, and probably close (ground) positions on Lost Temple as well. Additionally, a lot of people are uncomfortable taking the risk of doing Hatch first and getting cheesed. Hatch first is "economic cheese" in the sense that it will almost certainly die against non-standard early play. Doing a 15 Pool or 14 Pool into 14/15/16 Hatch is almost always very safe. But I feel like doing 14 Hatch, especially against Terran, on Lost Temple or non-close Metalopolis is perfectly fine if you're willing to accept very difficult games against cheese. Doing Hatch first against Protoss is tricky business. The difference between 1 gate, 1 chronoed gate, 2 gate, 2 chronoed gates is huge, and the map positions come into it heavily. ------------------------- As far as when to get your second Queen: it depends on what you scout. But if it's just standard play, you should get your second Queen the instant you have 150 minerals AND can keep building drones. Get it out fast and use its initial energy for creep tumor. Keep in mind that you will be getting at least one gas, if not two, before this point. It's important to: a) Get gas quickly. b) Pump as many drones as you possibly can with the early larva. c) Not get supply blocked in the process ( part a) helps with this!). to take full advantage of this build. This means you will be getting at least 1 gas before your second Queen so keep that in mind. -------------------------- When doing this build against Terran, the timing is super-critical. Terran will go for Hellions or Reapers early on (almost 100% chance). Both of these units are fast and can get to your base very quickly. It's important to have 2-4 lings running up and down the ramp to scout what he's doing/the timing. This way you can pump as many drones as possible and use the extra income to plop down a spinecrawler (or two in intense situations). You will definitely 100% get use out of your spinecrawler (only 90% if you're on Blistering Sands) so don't worry too much over building it. You're gonna want to get ling speed against Terran since it shuts down early harassment nicely without getting a Roach Warren. The speed of your gas is very important here - get that first 100 gas quick and buy ling speed. Against Terran, I use my earlier mineral income to build a third Queen in case of a quick Banshee. The third queen can spread creep tumors soooooo fast if you pay attention to it. If you keep it at your natural, it will also be pretty decent defense and it will likely have a Transfusion saved up. ----------------------------- Against Protoss, you can relax a bit more. Protoss' early attacking units will dribble in slowly, giving you plenty of opportunity to scout the timing and build the correct number of lings. It's also helpful to build a spinecrawler or two as soon as that hatchery is completed. Even on 1 unchronoed gate, a Protoss can do some damage to you, but getting 4-6 lings out can take care of it super-easy. A chronoed gate is a bit harder and faster and you'll have to scout it and save larva for when your Pool completes. 2 gates is very strong against Hatchery first, depending upon ground distance, but you have the perfect scouting advantage with your overlord in his base. With good multitasking, you'll be able to tell when to stop making lings. 2 chronoed gates vs. Hatchery first is very tough, but it's pretty rare now. If you defend against 2 chronoed gates, you basically have the game in the bag - so it's very dangerous for the Protoss to try this. Against Protoss, you have the choice of getting later gas. There is no intense harassment coming from Protoss and the Zerglings are effective on the early creep to deal with Zealots. I still like getting earlier gas to have my lair tech up quicker so I always get 1 geyser quite early while I'm still pumping drones. Ling speed is good early on to threaten backstabs, exploit bad simcity, and scout. Getting a third Queen against Protoss is also very beneficial for surviving the occasional Void Ray attack and spreading your tumors. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 18 2010 14:33 EnderW wrote: I also find that I have more control over the flow of the game w/ a 13 pool, and I enjoy being the one in control. Agreed. I dont understand how people go hatch first every game. What do they do when they get cheesed? Rage at the opponent and quit hoping cheesers will one day disappear? | ||
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Klamity
United States994 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
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IKenshinI
United States132 Posts
On May 18 2010 17:08 Cheerio wrote: Agreed. I dont understand how people go hatch first every game. What do they do when they get cheesed? Rage at the opponent and quit hoping cheesers will one day disappear? Hatch first is cheese in its own way if you can defend it. Once you have defended it from early aggression, it is gg unless you make mistakes (like not scouting). By the time you're at ~30 food, you have complete economic domination | ||
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TrogdorBurninate
United States104 Posts
Basically I had a friend play me over and over again doing bunker rushes and proxy gates. I knew they were coming, but I still just went out my business like I normal, then got used to pulling workers off to defend when I saw the cheese. | ||
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