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On September 13 2010 08:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:51 TLOBrian wrote:On September 13 2010 04:01 Proto-n wrote:
this was my standard build against protoss/terran (well, almost the same), until they started 2gate-ing and bunker rushing me (back in beta phase 1)
how do you defend vs a bunker rush? (the bunker being in range of your natural) I'm in PrinceXizor's livestream right now asking him questions. HE ALWAYS SCOUTS ON 9! Against 2gate there are roaches and spine crawlers involved to fend off the 2 gate. Your lair hatch gets up SUPER fast to have creep there. Once you fend off the two gate you hit them with a timing push while they're transitioning. You'll have a 6 roach 4 hydralisk push and you'll....decimate him basically. Also once you transition into the mid game...If he goes storm you can just run up and fungal growth his high templar, neural parasite a couple of them and blanket his own army with storm because he can't get out because hes fungaled : P Scout early on 9 against terran because you can learn the timings from gas for reapers etc. From bunker rushes if you see an scv running down from the base with your overlord You just pull a worker or two and kill the scv. You always want to be wary once you see an SCV going towards your base. 1. This thread is awesome. 2. The 2gate reference above is not a part of my ZvT build. it was a random question i got. i'm not the best vs Protoss (worst matchup by far), and so i'm still experimenting i do a different openning vs protoss. and for fungal growthing + NP templar it's very hard to do, and i don't bother to pull it off against micro-players. it works vs the macro style protoss that just want alot of stuff and don't micro as well. and it's good as a surprise with burrow but thats it. 3. I scout on 9 specifically for reaper or banshee timing. also i get an overseer (if i'm playing well) as soon as my lair finishes to keep scouting throughout the game. 4. My build was originally developed in beta to play vs mech (during all the mech imba cries), and as such it works wonderfully vs the reactor'd hellion harrassment. you do have infestors out in time. it takes practice to beat reapers w/ this build though i was failing miserably for a long while trying it. even hatching in base at times ect. but now I can do pretty well against it and typically don't lose more than a drone or two. and some lings. 5. my mechanics are the worst part of my play, and do not dismiss the build because my mechanics were not great. i'm working on them. my opponents were all diamond around 700-1000 at the time of the replays. 6. Vs Bunkers your early scout sees the SCV coming and you have positioned your overlord to spot anybunker and if the scv disappears you send a drone after it, if a bunker goes down pull 2 drones and kill the scv. thats what i do, there is probably a better way though. but its what i do. And thank you for making this thread O.o
I think I ninja'd you with my OP...>.> I think that's all your builds, I hope? It's really vague because I don't know the exact timings of everything. And also I don't think you can say the exact timings because it depends on your opponents play....hmm...
Basically the reocurring trends I see is:
Get a fast evo chamber for upgrades
Get Lair
Use infestors, hydras, and upgraded lings to scout and deny expansions, and deny all sorts of harass and shenanigans.
Get ultralisks, move out with your 3/3 melee army that is super effective because your opponent can't move because of fungal.
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On September 13 2010 08:55 TLOBrian wrote:
I think I ninja'd you with my OP...>.> I think that's all your builds, I hope? It's really vague because I don't know the exact timings of everything. And also I don't think you can say the exact timings because it depends on your opponents play....hmm...
Basically the reocurring trends I see is:
Get a fast evo chamber for upgrades
Get Lair
Use infestors, hydras, and upgraded lings to scout and deny expansions, and deny all sorts of harass and shenanigans.
Get ultralisks, move out with your 3/3 melee army that is super effective because your opponent can't move because of fungal.
That is generally my ZvZ. yeah. very simplified. but yeah. my Vs T is a bit different mid-late game.and my vP is still being worked on.
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Thanks Brian, Great post, and great streaming Prince. I've been watching your streams for a while now, and you're doin it up real nice. =) I'll be happy if I can pull this style off half as good.
<3
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I've been experimenting with it on ladder (opponents all ~1000, about 8 games vT, mixed results mostly I attribute to my mechanics). I would like to hear what better players think about this too.
1) I love the heavy infestor early to midgame, and I like a lot of what this build does, but I'm not sold on the early or (fast transition to) late game necessarily.
2) Blue flame hellions alone aren't scary but with tank/thor support it becomes really difficult dealing with them considering they stop your ultras from getting to things and rape your lings. I can't simply run my infestors up and fungal them because the tank range is too long. Mostly this is just me observing that the end game terran death ball is still the end game terran death ball, and I need to harass/avoid more.
3) NP becomes necessity against thors/mech in general since calldown repair after you fungal them just heals them back up and sometimes the thor deathball becomes too much to deal with when hellions stream back in.
4) I'm not sold on the early game. 14 hatch just feels too risky on most maps (I never lose to the bunker rush but they do annoying things like leave have multiple SCVs building the bunker and just take the loss on one of them so then I have to deal with marines in bunkers which means more lings than I want to make/delayed gas because I'm thrown off guard), but I love the early creep spread. I might try messing around with doing the standard 14 gas 14 pool with an early second queen either before or after the expo. The other thing I'm noticing is I feel like I have too much money too early with 14 hatch. This isn't a bad thing of course, but I just feel like earlier gas earlier lair, earlier queen and you aren't really giving much up if you're top notch and spreading creep.
5) I'm not sold on the super fast ultras/hive tech. You don't have enough gas to support all this as early as you want to also be pumping out infestors to live through whatever it is you need to live through to get to ultras.
6) I'm not sure about hydras but I do really like roaches and getting burrow for both of infestors and roaches. Roaches also don't get roasted by hellions as easily. With heavy lings and infestors I can't kill a PF. (SCVs with auto repair live through fungal pretty easily if they're repairing a PF...)
7) Close position DQ vT sucks (why are those god damn rocks at my "safe" natural). In general infestors seem to work better on longer maps but this is just me being angry at the small map pool
8) I haven't encountered ghosts or terran who just minesweep my creep but I'd imagine both would be very hard to deal with.
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I just encountered a terran who went mass ghosts vs this. I'd imagine a spine crawler/spore would be enough to keep him from sneaking in the base, i didn't do that and he sniped several infestors.
The ghosts werent that hard to deal with, he had about 8 in my base, and 2 fungals revealed all of them and stuck them in place, then about 15 speedlings cleaned them up easily.
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Since prince has started posting in thread I think he can answer some of your questions about the build now : P Head on over to his livestream, he's on periodically and has great VODs, I personally watch whatever VOD I have missed and he is full of information.
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Thanks for these builds. I'll have to give em a try.
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On September 13 2010 10:45 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
Thanks for these builds. I'll have to give em a try.
Yeah man, seeing him open up a can of awesome with those infestors made me love it : P
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Ahahah, I was totally in chat. Fun times.
On September 12 2010 06:29 StarBrift wrote:
I hate to be a partypooper but this build simply loses outright to any rax first reaper rush with a bunker. Atleast you will lose your hatchery at the natural.
When I open 9 gas 9 rax reaper I get my first reaper to the base of a player doing 14 gas 13 pool when he has just got his first few lings and queen is spawning. Usually they have 4 lings or so at this time and speed is not done. If someone were to spend 300 mins on a hatchery and try to get defenses up after that then yeah I would have like 3 reapers with speed in his base before his lings spawn. It is simply not possible to hold vs a bunker / reaper rush if you do hatch before pool. Atleast not vs a rax first reaper rush.
If anyone can prove me wrong I would love to see a replay of the game because I allways strive to play macro intese styles even in my random games.
I dunno if this was addressed already (3 pages is too much reading for one with A.D.D. as persistent as I) but they'll have speed by the time you have reaper speed. If you, as a terran player with reapers, don't have speed and they don't have speed, then the creep will give the lings the move speed advantage, and will shut down kiting until your reapers get speed.
Of course, if you outmicro the lings with cliff jumping, then you can still pull off effective harassing. But if the Zerg can pull off the relatively basic micro required to chase, flank, and surround the reapers, then he's golden, he's shut down the early reapers, etc. etc. etc.
And as for bunker rushes, if the Zerg sees early signs of a bunker rush (proxy rax, dropped scv count, a bunker being constructed in the Zerg main are all nice signs) then he simply won't place down the expansion. Or, depending on how early he scouts and how confident he's feeling, he might anyways.
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I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it.
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On September 13 2010 11:12 Dox wrote:
I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it.
the queen is delayed by about 10 seconds game time, you get it at your natural it's not really late.
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On September 13 2010 11:29 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 11:12 Dox wrote:
I can see this falling over quite helplessly against a 10 Depot 11 Gas 13 Rax fast Factory+Reactor build. Especially with the late Queen & Ling speed. Wouldn't mind taking a shot at it. the queen is delayed by about 10 seconds game time, you get it at your natural it's not really late.
Prince if there are any glaring errors in my post just quote the original post and then make your edits to it, PM me it and I'll just copy pasta it back into the OP
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I LOVE this style of play. It seems so, elegant.
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awesome thanks for this!!!
will def be giving this a try.
and thanks for updating OP, thats awesome. love thread makers like you xD
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Alrighty guys, going to bed. Zerg players bump! I think these builds are super friggin strong : P
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This build is pretty cool. I finally managed to overcome my fear of MMM by rushing to infestors. They seriously put the hurt on a clumped up bio ball. Not to mention, theres no "wall" of having to get the infestor pit before going hive. You just go hive when you see siege tanks and let ultras do the rest. Fast teching never felt so good!
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watching his stream right now...
ZvZ he's going 12gas then 12pool
do u need to switch the things in the OP or is he mixing it up?
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After running with this for a couple of days, I really like the possibilities.
I've been going Ling-Inf to Ling-Inf-Ultra, with any other tech I need to survive based on scouting. (this is basically what I picked up from watching PX's cast recording.)
Feels like a style that will, as PX said, scale with skill. I often feel like there is a great deal going on midgame that my 80-90 apm can't quite handle.
I've also found it more difficult to keep my resources down with the PX style, but sometimes this is a strength, as I can delay any push with early INF and spawn units as needed, which allows faster tech when undisturbed.
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Actually, i'm quite surprised we didn't see that sort of build before.
For several reasons, first, TLO was playing a lot with Speelings/infestor, and do amazingly well with it when he was playing Zerg.
Second, it's remind me of the 1/1/1 Terran build, where you develop all of your tech' while defending ( this is the risky part with zerg compare to Terran ofc ^^ ) so you can pretty much do whatever you want after it's built.
And finally, it's so logical and smooth, infestation pitt is always used as the "get T3" structure and everyone's saying that infestors rocks and are underused. So why not using them god dam it ! ^^
In a way, this kind of build avoid the concept of "tiers" and this is more about "where should i invest my first gas".
Could be wrong tho, i'm just a low diamand player who don't play a lot, but still, i feel it ! I want to believe. ^^
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EPT
