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On September 13 2010 16:26 FFitchMode wrote:
After running with this for a couple of days, I really like the possibilities.
I've been going Ling-Inf to Ling-Inf-Ultra, with any other tech I need to survive based on scouting. (this is basically what I picked up from watching PX's cast recording.)
Feels like a style that will, as PX said, scale with skill. I often feel like there is a great deal going on midgame that my 80-90 apm can't quite handle.
I've also found it more difficult to keep my resources down with the PX style, but sometimes this is a strength, as I can delay any push with early INF and spawn units as needed, which allows faster tech when undisturbed.
I love that you love this : P
I personally believe an extra hatch is needed because:
1.This build gets tech out in waves.
2.Zerglings are a larva expensive unit. (and good in emergencies...)
3.You'll have a ton of extra minerals at any given point of time, and who doesn't like droning harder?
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I would like to see some replays from others using this style. If anyone has some I would appreciate it. Everyone has their own touch, and I'm more afraid of not being able to counter early rushes. The more variable openings I can see the better.
Thank you for your effort guys. I'm glad us zerg have ya!
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I will definitely try these builds...
I am only Gold atm
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I'm all over this build. One thing that's important to know, map control with lings is key. Eventually you replace them with creep/overlords. But it's key to place your infestors in the defensive spots against faster units (reapers/medivacs/hellions).
If your infestors are in the right spot, I really can't see you suffering any damage from the harrass.
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On September 13 2010 22:53 Mastadon6900 wrote:
I will definitely try these builds...
I am only Gold atm
I'm not sure if this build is for you. You have to have really really good micro at the beginning to hold off reapers, and use infestors efficiently.
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I'm quite interested in doing multiple test runs of this build against a terran player. If there's anyone here from the EU servers who is able to play terran on a diamond league level (900ish) and wants to help me test this build then please PM me.
If I can find anyone who will play several games with me to practice and test this build then I'll post the replays here.
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hmm. I would like to see more of this. I will start trying this out. D9D on this ?
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On September 14 2010 03:53 JoeCrow wrote:
hmm. I would like to see more of this. I will start trying this out. D9D on this ?
I wish he would do a daily on it! hahaha that'd be kickass. Maybe bug him till he does? : P
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I LOVE early infestors.
Been using that latest matches vs T.
Incredible how cost effective they are vs most T units.
I held off a MM attack and later MMM attack with 2 infestors and a handful of lings. 2nd attack killed my nat with the last marauder. But I had enough money then to ultra and just feel safe from there. However I failed scout and got mass bansheed :D forgot hydra den  think 2 infestors + 5 hydras would have saved the day
Extremely effective vs Ts that position their units badly I must say. Very much the unit that allows a better Z player to own a worse T player. Managing to kill like 10 helions with 3 infestors, NP a thor and move in with lings + ultras is awesome. Its at least a very fun build =)
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I'm surprised there aren't more posts in this thread, this is an awesome build. Thanks to PX (and to TLObrian for making the thread!).
On September 14 2010 02:45 TLOBrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 22:53 Mastadon6900 wrote:
I will definitely try these builds...
I am only Gold atm I'm not sure if this build is for you. You have to have really really good micro at the beginning to hold off reapers, and use infestors efficiently.
I disagree actually, I'm high gold, and after the first few games I am starting to feel pretty solid early game. (Although I was mid/high plat untill I switched to protoss for a few days on ladder without ever having played them before, lol) Anyway, after getting used to using my initial lings correctly, and spending my first 300-400 gas in the right order, things are settling down. Won 8 straight this morning like this.
I have had some trouble dealing with fast banshees that seem to be coming out around 30-35 food, but I feel like this will get better too if i start scouting for starports a little before then and throw down spores and get my inf down asap.
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Another cool thing about the fast infestors, which I think PX mentioned in one of his streams, is that they force full commitment from any push. A lot of times this means I can pull drones back into my main, lose my nat while I fungal his army and pump lings, and throw it down again right away and get back to mining. Not that you would want to be doing this, but since you can trade a cheaper ling army for his whole force you can sometimes afford the economic hit and survive.
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On September 14 2010 05:58 FFitchMode wrote:
Another cool thing about the fast infestors, which I think PX mentioned in one of his streams, is that they force full commitment from any push. A lot of times this means I can pull drones back into my main, lose my nat while I fungal his army and pump lings, and throw it down again right away and get back to mining. Not that you would want to be doing this, but since you can trade a cheaper ling army for his whole force you can sometimes afford the economic hit and survive.
you can do the same thing fungalling them outside of your base. do that instead.
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Hi there,
PrinceXizor, first of all I'm enjoying your stream and your commentating. I love the way you explain your strategies and way of think of the game and analyze it. You are awesome and well mannered and I hope you woun't get this one wrong.
I saw this strategy a lot and played it myself, the thing, or better problem, I have with it that this is "just" a strategy for dumb opponents. You beat your opponents because they play blindly the same. I saw you killing like 8 mutas with 3 hydras and 2 infestors, which is awesome but people in your game are doing this not one time, they lose like 20 mutas everytime to the same thing and this is why I think you are getting controle of the game. It's okay for low\mid diamond but honestly I dont think that this delayed and safe playing expansion works well in upper tier, too.
In no game I saw streamed you took advantage of those attacks, you just used it to secure more expansions and win those harass battles over and over. At some point you were even and started to snipe expos with lings.
The simple question for ZvZ is, what do you do when a player realizes the tech and just overwhelm you with Eco? I'm not sure if you can defend a 3 base push when you are at one. Would be awesome to hear an answer from you.
Best and kind regards,
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On September 14 2010 06:48 CallmeMuppet wrote:
Hi there,
PrinceXizor, first of all I'm enjoying your stream and your commentating. I love the way you explain your strategies and way of think of the game and analyze it. You are awesome and well mannered and I hope you woun't get this one wrong.
I saw this strategy a lot and played it myself, the thing, or better problem, I have with it that this is "just" a strategy for dumb opponents. You beat your opponents because they play blindly the same. I saw you killing like 8 mutas with 3 hydras and 2 infestors, which is awesome but people in your game are doing this not one time, they lose like 20 mutas everytime to the same thing and this is why I think you are getting controle of the game. It's okay for low\mid diamond but honestly I dont think that this delayed and safe playing expansion works well in upper tier, too.
In no game I saw streamed you took advantage of those attacks, you just used it to secure more expansions and win those harass battles over and over. At some point you were even and started to snipe expos with lings.
The simple question for ZvZ is, what do you do when a player realizes the tech and just overwhelm you with Eco? I'm not sure if you can defend a 3 base push when you are at one. Would be awesome to hear an answer from you.
Best and kind regards,
Well. A Fast Expand against me in ZvZ is the hardest to break with my ZvZ strategy, if they go just mass roach hydra however lings are no threat at all, and neither are baneling or mutalisks. FE is not common in ZvZ and i could delay my tech to punish the expo with speedlings if i chose to do that.
they tend not to get to 3 base while i am on 1 because I expand moderately quickly since i expand dependant on situation. that is, when i have 2 infestors, and they are going air, or when i have 2 infestors and 2-4 hydras, and they are going ground. my expansion is roughly 8 food behind a typical player, and i make up for that by being (unlike my opponent) typically immune to the harrassment.
with the safety of my small force i can tend to pump drones more often than another player, spiking my economy up to their level in a short period of time.
after you get 10-12 hydras you can start picking off units of the enemy as you can get creep pretty far with ovvies and stuff. you run in with lings (if roaches) and kill the expo if you feel you can, OR harrass with the hydras against roaches forcing them to engage or pull back, and fungal them as they are coming, keeping them out of range and picking off as many units as you can safely, then fungalling and running back. you can be agressive and keep forcing the enemy to avoid drone production and high numbers of units.
they typically will never get more than 2 bases for very long as I snipe them easily unless his army is there. and I expand as i can, there are actually points in time i can expand beyond what i do in the vods and in the replays. But due to lack of vision by myself (a mistake easily rectified by using your overlords and overseers more) i felt unsafe. So yeah I agree that the resources shown do not reflect the full ability of the build, and As i continue to get better about vision and spotting and macro my build will get stronger and stronger.
Note, my macro in my replays is not very good. That is my main focus in my current practicing.
I will also grant you that my opponents seem to be pretty terrible. But this is in part due greatly to the confusion that is caused by a ZvZ going to late game, something I am entirely used to and planning on, and something the general public does not expect. So i have a severe advantage in that part. MY opponents are not terrible players typically, always tend to be between 51-80% win rate in diamond. I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game.
If you DO get stuck on 1 base when they are on 3+ bases, you have to use infestors and terrain to your advantage as MUCH as possible. putting crawlers on high ground and fungalling them on the bottom of the ramp so they cannot see up top and just keep using ranged units to kill their army without them seeing you, using some units to target any overlord ect they have to keep them in the dark. Thats how i've held off much larger armies, it's not really that good, but it's enough to defend if you get stuck in a bad situation. Though normally, yeah you can keep them on 1-2 bases and expand off of 1 fairly soon.
In short, if they do not throw away any advantage they have, you just go take it. i felt no need to be aggressive when my opponents were content to throw away 2000/2000 in units at me repeatedly.
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All I have to say is that I'm really enjoying the 14 hatch/gas/pool. It feels like a lot less APM work for a much larger return.
It seems counterintuitive, but having the hatch before the pool that early makes defending a lot easier vs terran. I do have to warn you though, don't do this against a toss
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First of all thank you very much for the effort putting in this answer!
It all does make sense when I'm reading this though I know its everytime diffrent when I am playing this. I have those 3 Infestors, get my upgrades, trying to tech to ultra and then I get crushed from tons of units which my infestors can not use.
Lack of scouting? think so. Wrong Infestor usage? could be. Wrong techtiming? possible.
I will watch your stream more to point the mistakes in my play, maybe I'm able to write something more detailed then.
Thanks.
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I tried a 15 hatch after a Sen's build against Terran and got rolled over by reaper bunker.
14 hatch is less riskier maybe. I will try it, going fast lair tech seems pretty cool.
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I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game.
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I think you're pretty much right on with that. Whenever i've tried infestor play similar to yours, it definitely seems a bit like it throws them through an unexpected loop.
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On September 14 2010 08:59 Malminos wrote:Show nested quote + I think it's a combination of infestors making them look silly and them being unsure how to continue on with the game.
. I think you're pretty much right on with that. Whenever i've tried infestor play similar to yours, it definitely seems a bit like it throws them through an unexpected loop.
Yeah, when a terran is like, "Where the hell did my army go, did it just die?" That's always a good change of pace : P Upgraded lings and fungal growths give me a nerdboner.
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Any advice for Reaper/Bunker rushing? I might attach a replay when I get home, but this seems to just walk all over me. By the time I'm getting harassed (Shut down the bunker) there are enough reapers to take my lings, and sunkens.
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EPT
