| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On September 15 2010 08:27 pbjsandwich wrote: When do you power drones? and is there a reason why you don't build extra hatches in your base? Power drones constantly. Drone until you think its absolutely neccessary to stop. It shouldn't be a question of when do you power drones it should be a question of when do you NOT power drones : P | ||
|
[-]Ocelot[-]
United States256 Posts
However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush. I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas. focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count. Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner? So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap. I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond. It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-149179.jpg) | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:06 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I've been practicing this build. I like it a lot and I think it's very effective vs baneling/speedling openings. However I can't get it to working vs any sort of roach rush. I am not understanding when we should expo. My economy is usually so poor (having to build lings and squeeze out a one or two drones every larva cycle) because of the early pool and very early double gas. focusing mostly on ZvZ here, expanding after the infestors is pretty late. I'm very restricted in my larva usage and building an evo chamber/baneling nest (optional)/roach warren(if they roach?), and maybe some spines (probably not), all of which eat into my drone production and my drone count. Roach, I believe, flat out beats this. I've submitted a replay of me getting beaten by the 5 roach rush. Now, the only thing I could have done is scout better and completely adapt: aka not rush for infestors and hold off this rush with some roaches of my own (basically abandoning the build). On top of that the 5RR gives him an expo long before I get mine. Considering I want my 4 gas asap due to my gas heavy build, wouldn't I need it maybe a bit sooner? So what did I do wrong? Am I getting that second gas too early? When to expand? I continuously squeeze drones in whenever I can and have a near saturated base asap. I watched the first two matches in the stream on the first post. It's what gave me the idea. One thing I couldn't help but notice is that Dice's opponents were not very good at all or went baneling/zergling which plays right into this build. My opponent this game was 1100+ diamond. It may be me being uncomfortable with 1 base play... but let me know what you think. I really like this infestor centric play but definitely has to be adjusted some.. I will take fault for playing blindly into roach. My opponents are around 1k diamond. and ling bling does play directly into your hands. vs roaches you scout the roach warren, put up a "block" (i use a roach warren) at your ramp and put down 2-3 spines around it, hold with lings early and use fungal to keep roaches away from the spines and take them out. once your hydras pop out, it's super easy for you since you can outrange them. typically all of my builds involve surviving the first push and then rapidly gaining an advantage in one/two of three ways: Tech, Upgrade, Food(econ). with ZvZ it's tech+upgrade, with ZvT it's food/tech, with ZvP it's Tech+Upgrade. though i've been modifying my ZvP a bit and will update the OP once i have some resources to look at for people The Expansion timing is all feel, when you feel safe you expand. it's almost solely up to that, and as such you expand earlier with more vision since you are safer and later with less vision because you don't know as much. and do explain the build better, you are not entirely gas heavy. you are getting 2 infestors early to fungal, and then more when you feel like you need more, but mostly pumping drones/speedlings. the mid game consists of getting hydras off 2 base with the occasional infestor and mostly speedlings, the late game consists of 3 basing with ultralisks. the mid game you power ahead so much by denying expansions with speedlings and being immune to counters with good management of energy. The early game is the toughest to master of each build. once you can survive vs reapers, bunkers, marine all ins, MM, tank rush, thor rush, speedling mass, baneling rush, roach rush, 2 gate, fast void ray. you pretty much can get some solid advantages that carry you throughout the game. | ||
|
ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
 | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:15 ZaaaaaM wrote: you talk about a timing push in ZvP strat section, yet you do not describe when this should happen, or am I missing something? I'll Pm him to fix that, you attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate, if you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push. | ||
|
[-]Ocelot[-]
United States256 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:14 PrinceXizor wrote: My opponents are around 1k diamond. and ling bling does play directly into your hands. vs roaches you scout the roach warren, put up a "block" (i use a roach warren) at your ramp and put down 2-3 spines around it, hold with lings early and use fungal to keep roaches away from the spines and take them out. once your hydras pop out, it's super easy for you since you can outrange them. typically all of my builds involve surviving the first push and then rapidly gaining an advantage in one/two of three ways: Tech, Upgrade, Food(econ). with ZvZ it's tech+upgrade, with ZvT it's food/tech, with ZvP it's Tech+Upgrade. though i've been modifying my ZvP a bit and will update the OP once i have some resources to look at for people The Expansion timing is all feel, when you feel safe you expand. it's almost solely up to that, and as such you expand earlier with more vision since you are safer and later with less vision because you don't know as much. and do explain the build better, you are not entirely gas heavy. you are getting 2 infestors early to fungal, and then more when you feel like you need more, but mostly pumping drones/speedlings. the mid game consists of getting hydras off 2 base with the occasional infestor and mostly speedlings, the late game consists of 3 basing with ultralisks. the mid game you power ahead so much by denying expansions with speedlings and being immune to counters with good management of energy. The early game is the toughest to master of each build. once you can survive vs reapers, bunkers, marine all ins, MM, tank rush, thor rush, speedling mass, baneling rush, roach rush, 2 gate, fast void ray. you pretty much can get some solid advantages that carry you throughout the game. Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't mean to discount your opponents and definitely not your play, it's just the first few opponents seemed to not be totally on the ball (maybe thrown off by this new strat). I'll take what you say into consideration as I continue testing it out. thanks again, and props for using infestors. I think they're one of the most fun units zerg has. | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:38 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't mean to discount your opponents and definitely not your play, it's just the first few opponents seemed to not be totally on the ball (maybe thrown off by this new strat). I'll take what you say into consideration as I continue testing it out. thanks again, and props for using infestors. I think they're one of the most fun units zerg has. no offense taken! :D i do seem to get alot of easy wins due to people not adjusting to my infestors. but eh free wins are wins i guess. Oh and with ZvZ feel free to delay your pool if you scout early and see him not doing somethign crazy i developed the build while peopel were still 6 pooling me in diamond. so the 12 pool is kind of a reaction to that i just haven't adjusted it for the lack of cheese now. | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:06 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: specifically watched your replay: you had 6 larva that remained unmorphed for about 30 seconds after seeing the roaches, that could have helped greatly, in addition to getting a few more lings, your best panic move in that situation would be to run back the lings, and turn them all to banes, let your lings that you would make pop and fight the roaches for a little then kill about 7 banes on them. they will live with about 20 health each, but 7 banelings deal a hell of alot more than 7 lings to roaches. and your queen + backup lings can easily handle the roaches. you also ran away from his base before seeing roach or baneling, thats pretty important, if he makes lings, extractor him and buy time to scout for that roach or banelign nest. also you went for +1 attack. which you had no basis for, you get +1 armor in case of a no scout on the roaches. but yeah +1 attack workedo ut wlel there, and making banes to fight the roaches isn't cost efficient, but sacrificing efficiency to avoid dying = good even if not ideal. and banes would help vs his ling followup as well. and especially that block by the ramp would help greatly. just the lack of sight REALLY messed w/ you as your lair finished you are at 400/400 with nothing being researched, yeah you only had like 50 seconds left in the game but an infestor pit should be going down as well as getting +1 armor for +1/+1. | ||
|
Andre112
Canada52 Posts
can't really defend that big ramp | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 04:16 Andre112 wrote: what do you do in ZvZ on scrap station? can't really defend that big ramp spines, faster creep spread making a small choke between the big ramp and your nat. its hard on scrap station. | ||
|
TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:20 PrinceXizor wrote: I'll Pm him to fix that, you attack once you get 6 roaches and 4 hydras. typically the hydras come last as you should be getting roaches to defend vs a 2 gate. the timing push only exists vs a 2 gate, vs a 4 gate you just expand earlier and pump to fight the 4 gate. make SURE you scout for an assimilator even if they go 2 gates, because it is not uncommon to fake the 2 gate into a 4 gate, if you don't scout the fake and go for an expansion you have a very hard time vs the 4 gate push. Already on it, PX. I'm going to be reformatting the OP and making it look prettier as well soon. Also, could you give me a more exact build order, perhaps up to 20-30 food, if they don't do anything funky? | ||
|
nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
| ||
|
shindigs
United States4795 Posts
| ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:17 shindigs wrote: Can you exactly clarify when to expand on ZvP? Sort of a dumb question but I've been doing so poorly against toss for some reason and anytime I see a 2gate I sort of panic and expand really late. ideally you would FE and not be harrassed. in ZvP i'm not exactly an expert. but yeah in ZvP you should definitely not get your hatch any later than when you see a cyber core go out (out of a 2 gate). pretty much if you scout cyber core, get a hatch down?. that timing might be off by a little bit (in the two soon direction) but if you can judge from about there it should be good. | ||
|
shindigs
United States4795 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:21 PrinceXizor wrote: ideally you would FE and not be harrassed. in ZvP i'm not exactly an expert. but yeah in ZvP you should definitely not get your hatch any later than when you see a cyber core go out (out of a 2 gate). pretty much if you scout cyber core, get a hatch down?. that timing might be off by a little bit (in the two soon direction) but if you can judge from about there it should be good. Alright thanks. I think I rather expand too soon then too late right now. Would you recommend just going with 14 pool 15 expand? Or maybe 14 hatch, 13 pool, 12 gas (same as terran). The main theme in all of these builds seem to just be fast upgrades and fast infestors (which has worked amazingly for me against T and Z btw). | ||
|
a176
Canada6688 Posts
Beating reapers and bunkers just takes practice. doing the right thing at the right time, knowing when it's coming and when to pull drones to kill the scv and bunker and when to attack no amount of micro or practice can save you from reaper bunker. reaper kill zerglings so god damn fast, you will never be able to produce enough zerglings to beat it. you can try to save up your zerglings but your expansion will be long gone by then. pulling off drones puts you immensely behind, especially if your enemy already has the economy to pump out 2 reapers/cycle. if you live, its because your enemy has extremely poor timing, micro, and general game ability. see past threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123249 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124694 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125947 | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:57 shindigs wrote: Alright thanks. I think I rather expand too soon then too late right now. Would you recommend just going with 14 pool 15 expand? Or maybe 14 hatch, 13 pool, 12 gas (same as terran). The main theme in all of these builds seem to just be fast upgrades and fast infestors (which has worked amazingly for me against T and Z btw). well again still working on ZvP builds, my current build is made just to punish the 2 gate and transition out to stop a 4 gate. BUT if you want to have a set food expand (instead of whenever your constant scouting sees a cyber core) i'd go 14/14/16 gas pool hatch. remember that more important than almost anything as zerg is complete sight of the map, just as much as you can manage, watch towers, overlords, spreading lings out, everything. | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 16 2010 09:13 a176 wrote: 14 hatch is not a new build. it has been discussed in depth in past threads. 14 hatch was an extremely strong opener during beta because not too many people were good at the game (read: no one ever used reapers). however, now, 14 hatch fails completely to early bunker or 2gate. believe me, i used to 14 hatch all the time, but then one day, it just stopped being useful. no amount of micro or practice can save you from reaper bunker. reaper kill zerglings so god damn fast, you will never be able to produce enough zerglings to beat it. you can try to save up your zerglings but your expansion will be long gone by then. pulling off drones puts you immensely behind, especially if your enemy already has the economy to pump out 2 reapers/cycle. if you live, its because your enemy has extremely poor timing, micro, and general game ability. see past threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123249 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124694 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125947 people used reapers in beta before they got nerfed and then vs protoss and now back to vsZ again. i played in beta since the start. the threads mean nothing when someone with actual practice against it has done it consistantly and says you just need to have alot of practice vs it. i've told my stream i've lost countless games practicing the vs reaper. now most terrans don't even get the bunker up vs me if they try. it's a hell of alot of spotting and experience that goes into to beating it. and pulling 2 drones does not put me immensely behind even if my opponent has 2 barracks. but thank you for your input, people correctly have identified the hardest thing to learn about the build (vs reaper) and i actually spent a long time dedicating myself to finding how to beat it (read about 60 hours) | ||
|
JrK
United States283 Posts
Either way thanks! | ||
|
Hammurabio
152 Posts
14 hatch fails completely to early bunker or 2gate. believe me, i used to 14 hatch all the time, but then one day, it just stopped being useful. Reapers, Bunkers, and Zealots all get build time increases in patch 1.1. How viable does this make 14-hatch vs an early rush? | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War ggaemo Stormgate 859Zeus  669Larva 574Hyuk 569Leta  327Tasteless 274sSak 225ToSsGirL 164PianO 114Pusan 93[ Show more ] Dota 2 League of Legends Counter-Strike Other Games Organizations Other Games StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
|
WardiTV Summer Champion…
Stormgate Nexus
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
The PondCast
WardiTV Summer Champion…
Replay Cast
LiuLi Cup
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
RSL Revival
RSL Revival
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
