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TvZ All-in Marines

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moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 05:38 GMT
#1
Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!

http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2Replay

The only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.
Malminos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
August 21 2010 05:41 GMT
#2
I wouldn't quit zerg. Just dont let it eat you up what everyone's saying. Banelings/speedlings are the answer. Speedlings soak up the damage while the banelings come in, then banelings take massive chunks out of his marine army. Download the unit tester map and practice on that and get a feel for it and you'll be alright. Zerg isn't as bad as everyone says, yes they're in need of balance changes, but dont stop playing them!
"To dream of because become happiness "
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
August 21 2010 05:46 GMT
#3
Maybe this had something to do with it:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
RavenNevermore
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 06:05:20
August 21 2010 05:49 GMT
#4
Overreaction much? There is a way to beat everything... and in the case of mass marines, there are many ways to beat it. Burrowed Banelings, Infestors work wonders with fungal growth. Flank with speedlings so he can't run away from the banelings.

Zerg is on par balance-wise with the other two races at the low-medium level of play, but when you approach higher levels, you find that Terrans are very difficult for zerg... I'm watching your replay now...

EDIT: Okay, I watched your replay. I'll give you some analysis.

I liked your agressive expansion. Well played

Your scouting was awful. In the early game and right at the end, the whole problem you were dealing with, involving unexpected marine pushes could be dealt with and countered very effectively at the cost of 1 zergling at each tower. Desert Oasis is incredibly easy for Zerg players to hold these towers using only 1 zergling at each tower. This vision provides perfect vision of the entire attack path no matter which way he decides to move.

Poor army composition I'm afraid. It was mixed, and all over the place. You appeared to get Hydralisks merely for the sake of making Hydralisks. More Zerglings and Banelings would have been a far better investment, or, even better than that, infestors, or even mutas would have been a better choice. The mutas wouldn't be at all effective at fighting his army, but 4 or 5 mutas could have effectively prevented him from any forward movement simply by harass. He had barely any SCVs the whole game, killing any would DRASTICLY slow down marine production. Also, when it comes to marines, Roaches and Banelings are a pointless overlap in role. If i were you I would choose one or the other.

Pointless and Disastrous agression. You made a common low level mistake. You killed his army, and felt that it was the perfect time to make an agressive push, and when you did, you lost all your army and dealt minimal damage. That army would have been far more benificial towards defending against the next attack.

Poor Engagement. Zerg are a race that is very dependant on engagement tactics, particularly flanking. You always engages the marines in one big ball, which made it very easy for the marines to lay down a forward layer of fire. There was no need to do such things. Engage from two directions from banelings and it forces him to split his fire. Choosing where to fight and engage and flanking is best tied to scouting, which I explained earlier, you had trouble with.

Infestors, like I said earlier, would have saved that game. That gas that you spent on Hydras (which are suprisingly inneffective pount for pound on marines) would have been far better spent on 3 or 4 infestors. Fungal Growth not only immobilizes marines, but also causes chaotic damage on large chunks of them.

Baneling Mines would have been very effective. Also useful to scout to lay these traps. See him coming? See where hes going? Lay down 5 Banelings and you knock his army down to a tiny fraction of it's original size.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
August 21 2010 05:50 GMT
#5
On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:
Maybe this had something to do with it:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

exactly. you suck that's why you lost.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Anxiety
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States650 Posts
August 21 2010 05:53 GMT
#6
On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:
Maybe this had something to do with it:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


12 larva too.
RedSword
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada53 Posts
August 21 2010 05:56 GMT
#7
On August 21 2010 14:50 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:
Maybe this had something to do with it:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

exactly. you suck that's why you lost.


+1

Try spending your money...
Supa19
Profile Joined August 2010
United States32 Posts
August 21 2010 05:58 GMT
#8
See my quote :p

The reason there are Zerg players in the top 10 worldwide is, well obviously they're pro, but they don't psych themselves out during a game because they don't have the momentum.
The hardest opponent to defeat is sometimes between your ears.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
August 21 2010 06:06 GMT
#9
this is a really popular build in the 400ish level of TvZ in diamond. I played it 3x in a row vs 3 different T. First time I lost cause bad scouting, the second I just massed speedling/baneling to hold off until infestor. I wouldn't even bother with roach, just spam speedling/bling/infestor.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Muftobration
Profile Joined July 2007
United States2 Posts
August 21 2010 06:06 GMT
#10
I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.
moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 06:07 GMT
#11
I spent all my money just expanding and building an army? My army size I would say always matched his or was bigger. It was hard to even get close to him. Most units would melt before getting the surround.
RavenNevermore
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada66 Posts
August 21 2010 06:12 GMT
#12
On August 21 2010 15:07 moosh wrote:
I spent all my money just expanding and building an army? My army size I would say always matched his or was bigger. It was hard to even get close to him. Most units would melt before getting the surround.



Critical Mass with marines can be rough, I agree, but it's by no means unbeatable. I think your engagement and scouting was all very sloppy.

Oh, and more armor upgrades.
ZaaaaaM
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1828 Posts
August 21 2010 06:13 GMT
#13
On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:
Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!

http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2Replay

The only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.


lawl, I wish people used this strat against me. So many units are good against pure marines, blords, ultras, blings and roaches. You're saying "if I went x, y would happen [y=bad]" Pretty bold statements and hard to believe without you showing it. Try to play against the same tactic a few times before making a useless topic. Oh yeah, spend your minerals and larva >.<
no dude, the question
moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 06:13 GMT
#14
On August 21 2010 14:49 RavenNevermore wrote:
Overreaction much? There is a way to beat everything... and in the case of mass marines, there are many ways to beat it. Burrowed Banelings, Infestors work wonders with fungal growth. Flank with speedlings so he can't run away from the banelings.

Zerg is on par balance-wise with the other two races at the low-medium level of play, but when you approach higher levels, you find that Terrans are very difficult for zerg... I'm watching your replay now...

EDIT: Okay, I watched your replay. I'll give you some analysis.

I liked your agressive expansion. Well played

Your scouting was awful. In the early game and right at the end, the whole problem you were dealing with, involving unexpected marine pushes could be dealt with and countered very effectively at the cost of 1 zergling at each tower. Desert Oasis is incredibly easy for Zerg players to hold these towers using only 1 zergling at each tower. This vision provides perfect vision of the entire attack path no matter which way he decides to move.

Poor army composition I'm afraid. It was mixed, and all over the place. You appeared to get Hydralisks merely for the sake of making Hydralisks. More Zerglings and Banelings would have been a far better investment, or, even better than that, infestors, or even mutas would have been a better choice. The mutas wouldn't be at all effective at fighting his army, but 4 or 5 mutas could have effectively prevented him from any forward movement simply by harass. He had barely any SCVs the whole game, killing any would DRASTICLY slow down marine production. Also, when it comes to marines, Roaches and Banelings are a pointless overlap in role. If i were you I would choose one or the other.

Pointless and Disastrous agression. You made a common low level mistake. You killed his army, and felt that it was the perfect time to make an agressive push, and when you did, you lost all your army and dealt minimal damage. That army would have been far more benificial towards defending against the next attack.

Poor Engagement. Zerg are a race that is very dependant on engagement tactics, particularly flanking. You always engages the marines in one big ball, which made it very easy for the marines to lay down a forward layer of fire. There was no need to do such things. Engage from two directions from banelings and it forces him to split his fire. Choosing where to fight and engage and flanking is best tied to scouting, which I explained earlier, you had trouble with.

Infestors, like I said earlier, would have saved that game. That gas that you spent on Hydras (which are suprisingly inneffective pount for pound on marines) would have been far better spent on 3 or 4 infestors. Fungal Growth not only immobilizes marines, but also causes chaotic damage on large chunks of them.

Baneling Mines would have been very effective. Also useful to scout to lay these traps. See him coming? See where hes going? Lay down 5 Banelings and you knock his army down to a tiny fraction of it's original size.


Thanks. Good advice. I think at a certain point I was getting so frustrated with fending off the constant marines that I forgot about towers. But I did scout gold and island expansions... I guess I need to cover the WHOLE map/

I definitely debated getting mutas but I was way too hesistant because of the number of marines on the field. A few turrets at the mineral lines and the overall investment would have been wasted.

Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
August 21 2010 06:16 GMT
#15
Nice macro, you're clearly a gosu.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 06:16 GMT
#16
On August 21 2010 15:13 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:
Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!

http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2Replay

The only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.


lawl, I wish people used this strat against me. So many units are good against pure marines, blords, ultras, blings and roaches. You're saying "if I went x, y would happen [y=bad]" Pretty bold statements and hard to believe without you showing it. Try to play against the same tactic a few times before making a useless topic. Oh yeah, spend your minerals and larva >.<


Ultras? Seriously? I debated that. But I figured with a little stim micro those Ultras would melt. Brood lords? With the starports already out, i'm sure those would have just gotten eaten up by vikings. I had to fend off a lot of attacks just to tech to brood lords. By the time i'm there he can just pump some vikings and all that tech is wasted. And with the lack of cliffs to hide over, marines can just stim, run under brood lords, and boom your dead.

Honestly? I thought I WAS going the counter for marines. Speedlings, banelings, roaches. The fact that it wasn't WORKING was what made me so frustrated.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
August 21 2010 06:17 GMT
#17
i don't blame you for being frustrated. this strat is completely lame to play against. it's so easy to mass rax and pump marines with a move, meanwhile as Zerg you have to be on your shit or you get rolled over by newb shit EVEN if you scout it.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 06:18 GMT
#18
On August 21 2010 15:06 Muftobration wrote:
I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.


Yea, I don't know. I feel like I have to work twice as hard against a Terran player to get my wins. Hence why, i'm not sure I want to play as Zerg anymore.
NonFactor
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden698 Posts
August 21 2010 06:21 GMT
#19
Against pure bio with only Medivac support Mutabaneling is the best choice always. Mutas to harrass / hunt dropship play, banelings to kill his pure marines, most Terrans don't go for pure marines like this over and over mainly due to banelings, especially when Zerg gets speed banelings just roll over Marines, granted you have enough of them.

Mixing in infestors to force them to stop retreating is always a good choice too.
moosh
Profile Joined May 2009
United States118 Posts
August 21 2010 06:21 GMT
#20
By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging.
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