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Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!
http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2Replay
The only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.
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I wouldn't quit zerg. Just dont let it eat you up what everyone's saying. Banelings/speedlings are the answer. Speedlings soak up the damage while the banelings come in, then banelings take massive chunks out of his marine army. Download the unit tester map and practice on that and get a feel for it and you'll be alright. Zerg isn't as bad as everyone says, yes they're in need of balance changes, but dont stop playing them!
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Overreaction much? There is a way to beat everything... and in the case of mass marines, there are many ways to beat it. Burrowed Banelings, Infestors work wonders with fungal growth. Flank with speedlings so he can't run away from the banelings.
Zerg is on par balance-wise with the other two races at the low-medium level of play, but when you approach higher levels, you find that Terrans are very difficult for zerg... I'm watching your replay now...
EDIT: Okay, I watched your replay. I'll give you some analysis.
I liked your agressive expansion. Well played
Your scouting was awful. In the early game and right at the end, the whole problem you were dealing with, involving unexpected marine pushes could be dealt with and countered very effectively at the cost of 1 zergling at each tower. Desert Oasis is incredibly easy for Zerg players to hold these towers using only 1 zergling at each tower. This vision provides perfect vision of the entire attack path no matter which way he decides to move.
Poor army composition I'm afraid. It was mixed, and all over the place. You appeared to get Hydralisks merely for the sake of making Hydralisks. More Zerglings and Banelings would have been a far better investment, or, even better than that, infestors, or even mutas would have been a better choice. The mutas wouldn't be at all effective at fighting his army, but 4 or 5 mutas could have effectively prevented him from any forward movement simply by harass. He had barely any SCVs the whole game, killing any would DRASTICLY slow down marine production. Also, when it comes to marines, Roaches and Banelings are a pointless overlap in role. If i were you I would choose one or the other.
Pointless and Disastrous agression. You made a common low level mistake. You killed his army, and felt that it was the perfect time to make an agressive push, and when you did, you lost all your army and dealt minimal damage. That army would have been far more benificial towards defending against the next attack.
Poor Engagement. Zerg are a race that is very dependant on engagement tactics, particularly flanking. You always engages the marines in one big ball, which made it very easy for the marines to lay down a forward layer of fire. There was no need to do such things. Engage from two directions from banelings and it forces him to split his fire. Choosing where to fight and engage and flanking is best tied to scouting, which I explained earlier, you had trouble with.
Infestors, like I said earlier, would have saved that game. That gas that you spent on Hydras (which are suprisingly inneffective pount for pound on marines) would have been far better spent on 3 or 4 infestors. Fungal Growth not only immobilizes marines, but also causes chaotic damage on large chunks of them.
Baneling Mines would have been very effective. Also useful to scout to lay these traps. See him coming? See where hes going? Lay down 5 Banelings and you knock his army down to a tiny fraction of it's original size.
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On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler + exactly. you suck that's why you lost.
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On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler +
12 larva too.
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On August 21 2010 14:50 mahnini wrote:exactly. you suck that's why you lost.
+1
Try spending your money...
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See my quote :p
The reason there are Zerg players in the top 10 worldwide is, well obviously they're pro, but they don't psych themselves out during a game because they don't have the momentum.
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this is a really popular build in the 400ish level of TvZ in diamond. I played it 3x in a row vs 3 different T. First time I lost cause bad scouting, the second I just massed speedling/baneling to hold off until infestor. I wouldn't even bother with roach, just spam speedling/bling/infestor.
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I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.
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I spent all my money just expanding and building an army? My army size I would say always matched his or was bigger. It was hard to even get close to him. Most units would melt before getting the surround.
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On August 21 2010 15:07 moosh wrote: I spent all my money just expanding and building an army? My army size I would say always matched his or was bigger. It was hard to even get close to him. Most units would melt before getting the surround.
Critical Mass with marines can be rough, I agree, but it's by no means unbeatable. I think your engagement and scouting was all very sloppy.
Oh, and more armor upgrades.
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On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2ReplayThe only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.
lawl, I wish people used this strat against me. So many units are good against pure marines, blords, ultras, blings and roaches. You're saying "if I went x, y would happen [y=bad]" Pretty bold statements and hard to believe without you showing it. Try to play against the same tactic a few times before making a useless topic. Oh yeah, spend your minerals and larva >.<
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On August 21 2010 14:49 RavenNevermore wrote: Overreaction much? There is a way to beat everything... and in the case of mass marines, there are many ways to beat it. Burrowed Banelings, Infestors work wonders with fungal growth. Flank with speedlings so he can't run away from the banelings.
Zerg is on par balance-wise with the other two races at the low-medium level of play, but when you approach higher levels, you find that Terrans are very difficult for zerg... I'm watching your replay now...
EDIT: Okay, I watched your replay. I'll give you some analysis.
I liked your agressive expansion. Well played
Your scouting was awful. In the early game and right at the end, the whole problem you were dealing with, involving unexpected marine pushes could be dealt with and countered very effectively at the cost of 1 zergling at each tower. Desert Oasis is incredibly easy for Zerg players to hold these towers using only 1 zergling at each tower. This vision provides perfect vision of the entire attack path no matter which way he decides to move.
Poor army composition I'm afraid. It was mixed, and all over the place. You appeared to get Hydralisks merely for the sake of making Hydralisks. More Zerglings and Banelings would have been a far better investment, or, even better than that, infestors, or even mutas would have been a better choice. The mutas wouldn't be at all effective at fighting his army, but 4 or 5 mutas could have effectively prevented him from any forward movement simply by harass. He had barely any SCVs the whole game, killing any would DRASTICLY slow down marine production. Also, when it comes to marines, Roaches and Banelings are a pointless overlap in role. If i were you I would choose one or the other.
Pointless and Disastrous agression. You made a common low level mistake. You killed his army, and felt that it was the perfect time to make an agressive push, and when you did, you lost all your army and dealt minimal damage. That army would have been far more benificial towards defending against the next attack.
Poor Engagement. Zerg are a race that is very dependant on engagement tactics, particularly flanking. You always engages the marines in one big ball, which made it very easy for the marines to lay down a forward layer of fire. There was no need to do such things. Engage from two directions from banelings and it forces him to split his fire. Choosing where to fight and engage and flanking is best tied to scouting, which I explained earlier, you had trouble with.
Infestors, like I said earlier, would have saved that game. That gas that you spent on Hydras (which are suprisingly inneffective pount for pound on marines) would have been far better spent on 3 or 4 infestors. Fungal Growth not only immobilizes marines, but also causes chaotic damage on large chunks of them.
Baneling Mines would have been very effective. Also useful to scout to lay these traps. See him coming? See where hes going? Lay down 5 Banelings and you knock his army down to a tiny fraction of it's original size.
Thanks. Good advice. I think at a certain point I was getting so frustrated with fending off the constant marines that I forgot about towers. But I did scout gold and island expansions... I guess I need to cover the WHOLE map/
I definitely debated getting mutas but I was way too hesistant because of the number of marines on the field. A few turrets at the mineral lines and the overall investment would have been wasted.
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Nice macro, you're clearly a gosu.
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On August 21 2010 15:13 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2ReplayThe only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit. lawl, I wish people used this strat against me. So many units are good against pure marines, blords, ultras, blings and roaches. You're saying "if I went x, y would happen [y=bad]" Pretty bold statements and hard to believe without you showing it. Try to play against the same tactic a few times before making a useless topic. Oh yeah, spend your minerals and larva >.<
Ultras? Seriously? I debated that. But I figured with a little stim micro those Ultras would melt. Brood lords? With the starports already out, i'm sure those would have just gotten eaten up by vikings. I had to fend off a lot of attacks just to tech to brood lords. By the time i'm there he can just pump some vikings and all that tech is wasted. And with the lack of cliffs to hide over, marines can just stim, run under brood lords, and boom your dead.
Honestly? I thought I WAS going the counter for marines. Speedlings, banelings, roaches. The fact that it wasn't WORKING was what made me so frustrated.
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i don't blame you for being frustrated. this strat is completely lame to play against. it's so easy to mass rax and pump marines with a move, meanwhile as Zerg you have to be on your shit or you get rolled over by newb shit EVEN if you scout it.
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On August 21 2010 15:06 Muftobration wrote: I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.
Yea, I don't know. I feel like I have to work twice as hard against a Terran player to get my wins. Hence why, i'm not sure I want to play as Zerg anymore.
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Against pure bio with only Medivac support Mutabaneling is the best choice always. Mutas to harrass / hunt dropship play, banelings to kill his pure marines, most Terrans don't go for pure marines like this over and over mainly due to banelings, especially when Zerg gets speed banelings just roll over Marines, granted you have enough of them.
Mixing in infestors to force them to stop retreating is always a good choice too.
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By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging.
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i don't know what you mean regarding "twice as hard".
This isn't a physical sport. You don't have to run faster and jump higher. You just have to do the right things. The right thing is to not have 2k+ minerals and gas. you could went pretty much anything but mass ling and won if you macro'd.
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I can't believe some of you are suggesting Ultras and Broodlords... I have to tech to my very top tier units to beat marines? That was my mistake?
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On August 21 2010 15:24 mprs wrote: i don't know what you mean regarding "twice as hard".
This isn't a physical sport. You don't have to run faster and jump higher. You just have to do the right things. The right thing is to not have 2k+ minerals and gas. you could went pretty much anything but mass ling and won if you macro'd.
Did you watch the replay or did you just look at the screen shot that guy took? I macro'd way harder than T. Three base, one gold, always pumping units. I get supply blocked sometimes. I could spend FASTER. But that income comes in so fast and those larva get used so quickly... you'd be surprised. For a zerg player... that money is never enough.
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Infestors are your answer.
Two or three good fungal growths are exactly what you needed.
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On August 21 2010 15:28 nayumi wrote: Infestors are your answer.
Two or three good fungal growths are exactly what you needed.
Ok, i'll try that next time.
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On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler +
This and /thread right there. That's just ridiculous and why there was even need for any debate after was pretty pointless. Get your macro down first, then worry about everything else.
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On August 21 2010 15:25 moosh wrote: I can't believe some of you are suggesting Ultras and Broodlords... I have to tech to my very top tier units to beat marines? That was my mistake?
I'm so sick of reading this. The only thing that matters in a game is winning condition; what wins you the game. Who cares how it's done or how rediculous you PERCEIVE it is to do. "Man I have to make these big cool monsters to beat those stupid small basic humans! BS MAN!"
Who cares, if you win. If all units were just animated as little dots, I think the psychological effect would be enough that people would stop complaining over weird things like which tier should beat which tier. This isn't warcraft where "wtf he's level 20, I'm 80 he can't beat me haha."
All units at all tiers are effective.
Of course Zerglings could use an attack speed buff or something, but still .
Also lol'd hard at the QQ in the first 5 seconds of the game.
Sorry, OP, but get better. =/.
Baneling mine fields would have wrecked that as well as muta harass or halfway decent infestor play
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Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him.
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So you guys REALLY think muta harass would have been good? I mean. I could try it next time... but it doesn't sound cost effective. With that many marines -- all he has to do is bring them... then once I move the mutas to attack elsewhere. Put turrets down. Those mutas cost me precious muta and money that I should just be spending on banelings and zerglings.
Even overlord drop... is so risky. If he catched them coming in. 1a towards the overlords. Then its GG for me.
You guys can close the thread though. The best advice I got was from Nevermoore. If i'm really as bad at Macro as everyone who WATCHED the video says... then I guess i'll play as Terran. I wont have to pay attention to as many bases this way and wont also have to worry about as much micro other than tank positions.
Thanks to some of you.
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On August 21 2010 16:06 Melt wrote: Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him.
Watch the video. Banelings is pretty much all I went early on. And here's what happens... in the early game? You destroy the M ball, but you don't quite have as much money to go in and finish them off. But the second time around? The M ball is so big that they melt the zerglings and banelings before they get close enough to do damage.
Look, the other day if you had said "omg I just lost only to marines". I would have laughed and said, "what? just go banelings!"
But after the game today? I'm joining the ZvT imba movement.
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I wish people actually did just MMM in zvt. The one strat that actually feels like relatively easily counterable with blings alone. But yeah as noted by others, you can't really call yourself "not a bad player" if you are @60pop with 8k/2k resources. It's easier to say what you do wrong than right then.
And no I didn't watch replay, since it can't be dloaded from either one of the links. Upload it elsewhere, there'll be much more than 10 or 20 ppl downloading reps from this kind of threads.
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banelings
once you get centrifugal hooks with speedling and/or infestor you have no excuse other than your a bad player
seriously loosing to "1a marines" when you have thats shit just means your terrible
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A few things from the replay. The first thing you need to do is remove the assumption that you outmacroed or outplayed the Terran player, because you did not. Reasons are below.
1. Yes you had more bases, but macro is more than just the number of bases, but also includes how well you are able to spend those resources. There's no use in having a ton of bases if you can't spend your money fast enough, which leads to...
2. A huge excess of larva. What's the point in injecting extra larva if you aren't going to use them. All you are doing is losing out on your naturally occuring larva. If you are short on resources, spend the energy on creep tumors instead. If you have a ton of money, USE UP YOUR LARVA.
3. Your creep spreading was extremely poor. NONE of your 4 bases were connected to each other. Given the length of the game that is inexcusable. Even on that map, you should have at least connected to your natural and probably your 3rd at the gold.
4. Getting supply blocked. You certainly had enough resources to make a ton of Overlords. All you did was limit the size of your army to roughly the same food count as his, and eventually lower than his. And you stayed at that food capacity (~80-90) for pretty much the whole game. I should add that since half of your food was Drones, your actual fighting units was substantially lower than his in nearly EVERY major encounter. So no, its not a surprise you got owned even by "just marines".
For example: A. Battle at his natural ~18:45. Food count is his 68 vs your 78. However you have 39 Drones to his 28 SCV's. So its actually your 39 food army vs his 40, which is dead even. However he had a Bunker, and for some reason you sent all your Banelings to take out his Bunker instead of the mass of marines. Probably would have been better to blow up his marines ball and let the roaches kill the bunker. Poor control on your part because this was certainly a winnable fight.
B. That battle at his natural ~21:46. His food count is 101 vs your 87. However he only has 29 SCV's to your 37 Drones so his actual fighting force is 72 food vs your 50. Advantage him big time. Afterwards you complain about how this was so dumb, but your fate was sealed when you decided to attack an army nearly 50% larger than yours.
C. The final battle. Your 129 food vs. his 134 food; you have 34 Drones to his 19 SCV's, so its actually your 95 food army vs his 115 which is about a 20% advantage for him. Also, your control here was awful as it was a pretty obvious 1A into a larger army. Your units arrived in a line directly into his concave. Nearly all of his marines were firing on you immediately, while your units in the back were still filing up the ramp. If you had balled up first and then moved in, you probably could have won even with his numbers advantage due to your Banelings. But the poor control here cost you.
4. You had HUGE excess resources but had 0/0/0 on upgrades until near the end, while the Terran had +1 attack for most of the game. With the amount of excess you money you had, why not throw down another evo chamber and double upgrade. You probably could have gotten to level 2 upgrades across the board given the length of that game.
In conclusion, you did NOT outmacro or even outplay the Terran player. You just had more bases than him which is only one part of "macro". You didn't even saturate the bases, as I don't think you ever went over 40 Drones. 40 Drones cannot even fully saturate 2 bases, let alone 3 or 4. In essence, you had wasted bases, even more so since you never managed to use the extra larva effectively. He did a better job of spending his money while you let huge reserves build up. He did a better job with upgrades for the majority of the game as you were 0/0/0 for most of the game. He did a better job picking his fights as you constantly attacked into larger armies for the entire game. He did a better job controlling his units and making sure his marines could get a decent concave while you were letting things line up like a firing squad. He did a better job with supply, as you were constantly supply blocked despite the capacity to easily produce to 200 supply worth of overlords. Your creep expansion was non-existant. In other words, your play was worse than his in everything other than making new bases. Bases which you could not take advantage of due to supply block, resource glutting, and no creep.
Bottomline: The right person won that game.
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I am guessing you are somewhere in gold or low plat. Most players in those are bad and will not react correctly as you describe and will not shut down your harass easily. Or will overreact and make like 15 turrets in their base and camp marines in base so you can expand twice easily.
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Infestors really is the only answer you needed. Armor Upgrades make Marines cry also. Which is the same reason Ultras can be an answer to mass Marines; they have 6 armor fully upgraded vs 6-9 damage Marines, depending on the T's upgrades.
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On August 21 2010 14:56 RedSword wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 14:50 mahnini wrote:On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler + exactly. you suck that's why you lost. +1 Try spending your money...
+2
Jesus your terribad. Why would u not even consider blings? infestors? This is the sterotypical "qq ZvT is imba" thread.
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On August 21 2010 15:21 moosh wrote: By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging.
No. You just have to spend your money and scout a little...
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This is exactly what protoss threads in sc1 sound like.
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On August 21 2010 16:16 moosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:06 Melt wrote: Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him. Watch the video. Banelings is pretty much all I went early on. And here's what happens... in the early game? You destroy the M ball, but you don't quite have as much money to go in and finish them off. But the second time around? The M ball is so big that they melt the zerglings and banelings before they get close enough to do damage. Look, the other day if you had said "omg I just lost only to marines". I would have laughed and said, "what? just go banelings!" But after the game today? I'm joining the ZvT imba movement.
The OP and all your responses are so terrible I can't tell if you just have a lower understanding of the game, trolling, or just that immature. I really hope its the first of the 3.
Instead of being a martyr and looking for some sort of sympathy for zergs, how about you just admit your entire game isn't up to par for you to have an opinion on balance. Then maybe these threads wont pop up.
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On August 21 2010 17:24 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:16 moosh wrote:On August 21 2010 16:06 Melt wrote: Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him. Watch the video. Banelings is pretty much all I went early on. And here's what happens... in the early game? You destroy the M ball, but you don't quite have as much money to go in and finish them off. But the second time around? The M ball is so big that they melt the zerglings and banelings before they get close enough to do damage. Look, the other day if you had said "omg I just lost only to marines". I would have laughed and said, "what? just go banelings!" But after the game today? I'm joining the ZvT imba movement. The OP and all your responses are so terrible I can't tell if you just have a lower understanding of the game, trolling, or just that immature. I really hope its the first of the 3. Instead of being a martyr and looking for some sort of sympathy for zergs, how about you just admit your entire game isn't up to par for you to have an opinion on balance. Then maybe these threads wont pop up.
Agreed.
Even if there was some sort of glaring imbalance in ZvT (and I don't think there is), your play just isn't at a level where you'd be able to tell the difference...
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The screenshot earlier explained it perfectly. To much Minerals \ gas stored. You could have such a huge army with that. Baneling + zling mix and 2-3 infestors would rape his all marine play.
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3 ultras, 1 takes the first hits, the other two MURDER ALL THE MARINES.
Also, roach burrow is nice!
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On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler +
this guys right, are you avoiding his comment?
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On August 21 2010 17:10 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 14:56 RedSword wrote:On August 21 2010 14:50 mahnini wrote:On August 21 2010 14:46 Sadistx wrote:Maybe this had something to do with it: + Show Spoiler + exactly. you suck that's why you lost. +1 Try spending your money... +2 Jesus your terribad. Why would u not even consider blings? infestors? This is the sterotypical "qq ZvT is imba" thread.
What the crap are you talking about. I was going blings basically all game.
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On August 21 2010 17:27 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 17:24 zomgtossrush wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 moosh wrote:On August 21 2010 16:06 Melt wrote: Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him. Watch the video. Banelings is pretty much all I went early on. And here's what happens... in the early game? You destroy the M ball, but you don't quite have as much money to go in and finish them off. But the second time around? The M ball is so big that they melt the zerglings and banelings before they get close enough to do damage. Look, the other day if you had said "omg I just lost only to marines". I would have laughed and said, "what? just go banelings!" But after the game today? I'm joining the ZvT imba movement. The OP and all your responses are so terrible I can't tell if you just have a lower understanding of the game, trolling, or just that immature. I really hope its the first of the 3. Instead of being a martyr and looking for some sort of sympathy for zergs, how about you just admit your entire game isn't up to par for you to have an opinion on balance. Then maybe these threads wont pop up. Agreed. Even if there was some sort of glaring imbalance in ZvT (and I don't think there is), your play just isn't at a level where you'd be able to tell the difference...
your right. i'll switch to playing an easier race.
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no really, youre macro needs serious work. what league are you btw? just wondering
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On August 21 2010 19:16 Cynthedic wrote:this guys right, are you avoiding his comment?
all that money went into banelings and roaches... which all died
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On August 21 2010 19:24 moosh wrote:
all that money went into banelings and roaches... which all died
Resource glutting was just one of your problems that game. I outlined the others on the previous page.
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On August 21 2010 19:22 Cynthedic wrote: no really, youre macro needs serious work. what league are you btw? just wondering
I was in plat during beta and im in gold now... won all my placement except two which were against t
I may not be gosu... but was this guy really that good?? it really didn't seem like he did much more than just spam a at rax and attack move them
I think 85% of my losses so far are to T
Everything everyone has said so far has just lead me to believe that I shouldn't be playing the macro heavy and supposedly aggressive Zerg. So I will play Terran. Thanks.
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The solution is very simple, I didn't bother to read all the comments or watch the video, but scouting properly and using zerglings and banelings is the key here. And don't just group them all upp and a-move the terran player, flank him and maybe even play around with burrow. Also, again pure marines (high atk-speed, low dmg) make sure that you get upgrades for your units asap.
Oh, and also: 1. Out-expand him and contain him on 1-2 bases. 2. ??? 3. Profit!
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Hi. I'm a noob zerg and I just played a match that was pretty much the same thing. Turtle Terran on one base going mass marine and 1 thor. I'm expanding and what not. Granted, I should have teched up to Ultras sooner and my macro is pretty bad. This is an epic (noob) battle but seriously entertaining.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60948-1v1-terran-zerg-novice-metalopolis
Let me know what you think.
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On August 21 2010 14:50 mahnini wrote:exactly. you suck that's why you lost.
maybe thats a little bit too harsh to put it? arent there rules against these posts?.....
instead: you need to improve your macro, its good to grab several expos, saturate them and work on injecting larvae constantly so you can use all resources you pool up to pump units.
Also-- scouting is vital, if need to be have an OL near his base ready to be sac'd to gain vision and see what he is doing.
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skip roaches tbh, baneling/ling/muta and maybe an infestor or 2 and you are set. If he only builds medivacs, (no tech lab on starport) it is time to have some fun with burrowed banelings. Also remember to harass well. If he has towers in the nat, kill them with mutas and then go to his main to distract him. Then you can drop banelings in his nat or sneak in some burrowed infestors and kill workers/disrupt mining.
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fungal growth + banelings/speedling
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LOl goddamn... I have to tech to every unit (banelings, speedlings, infestors, and ultras) and use all their abilities (burrow, fungal growth)... spawn lots of creep... control all the watch towers... out-expand and defend all the expands.... harass... never get supply blocked... get all the upgrades I can for all my units... tech to tier 3 units as quickly as possible
to deal with 1a marines... lulz all day
User was warned for this post
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On August 21 2010 15:06 Muftobration wrote: I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.
100% on top of everything? By the looks of it, he hasn't built a goddamn unit in the last month. Of course proper macro, no matter unit, should win the game.
Seriously.
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On August 21 2010 19:21 moosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 17:27 MrBitter wrote:On August 21 2010 17:24 zomgtossrush wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 moosh wrote:On August 21 2010 16:06 Melt wrote: Finding a counter against Marines only shouldn't really be that hard. Banelings are so freakin awesome against marines and if you don't win, build more Banelings.
If he managed to beat you, than (i'm sorry to say that) you were extremely less skilled than him. Watch the video. Banelings is pretty much all I went early on. And here's what happens... in the early game? You destroy the M ball, but you don't quite have as much money to go in and finish them off. But the second time around? The M ball is so big that they melt the zerglings and banelings before they get close enough to do damage. Look, the other day if you had said "omg I just lost only to marines". I would have laughed and said, "what? just go banelings!" But after the game today? I'm joining the ZvT imba movement. The OP and all your responses are so terrible I can't tell if you just have a lower understanding of the game, trolling, or just that immature. I really hope its the first of the 3. Instead of being a martyr and looking for some sort of sympathy for zergs, how about you just admit your entire game isn't up to par for you to have an opinion on balance. Then maybe these threads wont pop up. Agreed. Even if there was some sort of glaring imbalance in ZvT (and I don't think there is), your play just isn't at a level where you'd be able to tell the difference... your right. i'll switch to playing an easier race.
Doesn't matter, if you can't spend resources you'll keep on losing. Because you're horrible.
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I'm pretty sure you're destined to stay in gold indefinitely if you stick with your current mindset. You don't seem to be getting the point everyone is shoving down your throat.
Your macro is bad, you need to spend your resources and larvae instead of just letting them sit there. Not some fancy strategy. This is why you are in gold. Half decent macro will get you to diamond.
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On August 21 2010 19:52 moosh wrote: LOl goddamn... I have to tech to every unit (banelings, speedlings, infestors, and ultras) and use all their abilities (burrow, fungal growth)... spawn lots of creep... control all the watch towers... out-expand and defend all the expands.... harass... never get supply blocked... get all the upgrades I can for all my units... tech to tier 3 units as quickly as possible
to deal with 1a marines... lulz all day
Now you are just trolling. Doing a select few of those recommendations would let you easily roll over mass marines. Your problem is that you did none of them. I highly suspect if you posted more of your losses against Terran we'd see more of the same macro/micro problems. From what you say, you certainly would have a lot of those to show us?
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I couldn´t download the replay, but I still guess, that he had more than 2 Baracks. Given the screenshot I also guess he was 2 basing.
Marines only isn´t really a strong playstyle, but an easy one. You also can counter it with something easy. Simply Speedlings with Banelings in big masses. Everything else is bonus to utterly destroy him. Especially if he doesn´t have a single Marauder, Marines die like paper planes.
If he doesn´t build anything else, youre fine with just having more lings than him, for which you clearly had the resources. If you accidentally get over 1k Minerals, just build Overlords till you hit 200 Supply, so you don´t have to worry about it later.
It´s not as complicated as people write here to just beat 1a Marines.
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How many of you are actually zerg players? I feel like my rage isn't just from this game (though this was the worst) but a collection of frustrations over this whole period of laddering since release.
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On August 21 2010 20:04 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 19:52 moosh wrote: LOl goddamn... I have to tech to every unit (banelings, speedlings, infestors, and ultras) and use all their abilities (burrow, fungal growth)... spawn lots of creep... control all the watch towers... out-expand and defend all the expands.... harass... never get supply blocked... get all the upgrades I can for all my units... tech to tier 3 units as quickly as possible
to deal with 1a marines... lulz all day Now you are just trolling. Doing a select few of those recommendations would let you easily roll over mass marines. Your problem is that you did none of them. I highly suspect if you posted more of your losses against Terran we'd see more of the same macro/micro problems. From what you say, you certainly would have a lot of those to show us?
No, I tend to play like this. But if you'd play Z you'd understand that we have to play kind of defensively against Terran and that each of their pushes are incredibly difficult to hold off. All my ZvT matches end up with me having to tech to either broodlords or ultras. Our tier two units just... SUCK. Everything melts like butter.
http://rapidshare.com/files/414227981/ZvT_Epic_Ultras.SC2Replay
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On August 21 2010 20:07 Mataza wrote: I couldn´t download the replay, but I still guess, that he had more than 2 Baracks. Given the screenshot I also guess he was 2 basing.
Marines only isn´t really a strong playstyle, but an easy one. You also can counter it with something easy. Simply Speedlings with Banelings in big masses. Everything else is bonus to utterly destroy him. Especially if he doesn´t have a single Marauder, Marines die like paper planes.
If he doesn´t build anything else, youre fine with just having more lings than him, for which you clearly had the resources. If you accidentally get over 1k Minerals, just build Overlords till you hit 200 Supply, so you don´t have to worry about it later.
It´s not as complicated as people write here to just beat 1a Marines.
http://rapidshare.com/files/414228096/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2Replay
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On August 21 2010 15:21 moosh wrote: By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging.
Unfortunately that's kind of the case. If you post a replay as a zerg you will get critized for not using every mineral and gas you got but really it's exactly like you say you should not have to be check to beat a guy who 1-a marines.
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Seriously... That Zerg in the replay was just beyond awful with his unit control. Keep your units in a ball and attack move, it's not hard. The problem with the Zerg in that game is that every fight he streamed his units in in a big conga line.
Embarrassing.
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"omg marines are T1 ololol" ... medivac support is not. Bling/Sling is 1.5 and is all you need. You can both A-move and you will win. If you add 10% extra control (burrow or take a smaller amount and attack from another direction) you'll win even bigger.
Threads like this make the other ZvT threads look bad. Or good, depending on which ones you've read.
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On August 21 2010 15:06 Muftobration wrote: I just watched the replay. While what everyone says here is true about being able to counter using speedlings and banelings, it's still a bit absurd that marines + a-move is all that the Terran needs to defeat a Zerg who's not 100% on top of everything.
Top of everything? Buddy this guy is floating 2k+ 2k+ on three bases with unnder 80 food. He probably isn't top of bronze.
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When you were complaining in chat you had the spare minerals and gas for 50(fifty!) banelings. Just attack moving those 50 extra banelings would've been more than enough to win the game.
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On August 21 2010 20:10 moosh wrote:No, I tend to play like this. But if you'd play Z you'd understand that we have to play kind of defensively against Terran and that each of their pushes are incredibly difficult to hold off. All my ZvT matches end up with me having to tech to either broodlords or ultras. Our tier two units just... SUCK. Everything melts like butter. http://rapidshare.com/files/414227981/ZvT_Epic_Ultras.SC2Replay
This replay shows many of the same problems as your OP: resource glutting, supply blocks, lack of creep spreading, throwing units into larger enemy forces, and poor scouting. You managed to win because the Terran player in this case was just as bad in this regard that game. Whereas in the OP replay, the Terran player was better in that regard.
No one here is saying you need to be pro, but most of those things are basic to ALL races. You don't need to be a Zerg to understand you should spend your money. You don't need to be Zerg to understand not to get supply blocked. And so on.
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On August 21 2010 20:20 Jaug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 15:21 moosh wrote: By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging. Unfortunately that's kind of the case. If you post a replay as a zerg you will get critized for not using every mineral and gas you got but really it's exactly like you say you should not have to be check to beat a guy who 1-a marines. Seriously, don't reinforce this guy's belief that it's because of ZvT that he lost.
Sevenofnines perfectly explained why he lost earlier in the thread and reinforcing his belief that the matchup is imbalanced will help no one, least of all the OP since it will mean instead of trying to improve, he will just become frustrated by playing.
To the OP: As a diamond zerg that regularly gets past the first 3-4 rounds in 512-1024 player tourneys(and with a few wins against sponsored players) I can with confidence tell you that the matchup is faaaar from as unbalanced as you seem to believe.
You are simply playing ZvT the wrong way as you usually don't even need to attack before you have ultras/broods(except for a little harassment). All you have to do is scout the map, kill his push(es) when he tries to attack, and outexpand until you simply walk over him. Trying to go for the throat just because you won a fight in the field is one of the biggest mistakes you can make, not to mention all the other criticism already presented in the thread so far.
Edit: Oh and yea, the picture Dead9 posted also perfectly illustrates what should happen if you had actually produced enough banelings and engaged in the proper situations.
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On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS! http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2ReplayThe only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit.
A better way to look at it is: I should have won this match. What did I do that made me lose? What can I do better next time. We all fail in execution sometimes. Just play better next game. Its not a balance issue. Losing sucks, but there's another game to play...
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On August 21 2010 15:21 moosh wrote: By the way, the guy messaged me afterwards and exclaimed he probably didn't deserve that win. I definitely see where I made mistakes but... so I have to play as good as Check to beat a guy who 1a's marines? That's pretty discouraging.
You're so far off the mark it's rediculous
Banelings > marines.
End of story.
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On August 21 2010 15:16 moosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 15:13 ZaaaaaM wrote:On August 21 2010 14:38 moosh wrote:Hey guys, so i'm not a bad zerg player. I find I have the most trouble with Terran as do most Z players. But you have to check this out. This guy goes flat out ONLY goes marines and medivac. NOTHING ELSE! I'm on three base, I have the gold, he is just barley expanding, and he keeps wiping out my units. I had the money to tech to ultras, brood lords, whatever. But I thought my baneling, roach, hydra would do best. I mean if I went brood lords, his marines would melt the broodlings, and he could quickly pump vikings. If I went ultras they would just melt to a little stim micro. You HAVE to check this out. It is RIDICULOUS!http://rapidshare.com/files/414191018/Worst_Game_Ever.SC2ReplayThe only thing I thought I could maybe do was some burrow micro with banelings. But there are so many fronts for him to attack from on Oasis. Really, I quit zerg until patch. This is complete and utter bullshit. lawl, I wish people used this strat against me. So many units are good against pure marines, blords, ultras, blings and roaches. You're saying "if I went x, y would happen [y=bad]" Pretty bold statements and hard to believe without you showing it. Try to play against the same tactic a few times before making a useless topic. Oh yeah, spend your minerals and larva >.< Ultras? Seriously? I debated that. But I figured with a little stim micro those Ultras would melt. Brood lords? With the starports already out, i'm sure those would have just gotten eaten up by vikings. I had to fend off a lot of attacks just to tech to brood lords. By the time i'm there he can just pump some vikings and all that tech is wasted. And with the lack of cliffs to hide over, marines can just stim, run under brood lords, and boom your dead. Honestly? I thought I WAS going the counter for marines. Speedlings, banelings, roaches. The fact that it wasn't WORKING was what made me so frustrated. You're probably right about the blords, they're just a bit too fragile and 6 vikings tear em apart. I think ultraling with infestors is your best bet, you can either run in with cracklings from 1 side and ultra's from the other side or use the infestors to keep em in place while the ultras are having a nice meal.
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You begun the game with saying you will probably loose. During the game you say you are loosing. At some point you accused the opponent of using maphacks. Throughout the game you foolishly engaged the opponent with like half your army at a time. 24 minutes into the game the opponent has 9 workers to your 37 and you proceed to proclaim that you'll post this the game on teamliquid like you've lost the game and then you throw the game away.
It reminds me of poker players that blame their losses on bad luck and that the poker site is rigged - a couple of bad beats and they go all-in with a loosing hand. Similarly you say that T is OP and that the opponent is cheating. Its a looser mentality. You like bad poker players, play in a way that will reaffirm your beliefs that you can't win. You need to work on taking responsibility for your results and getting rid of those unhelpful beliefs.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 21 2010 20:19 Dead9 wrote:![[image loading]](http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3695/87724531.png) There you go.
Switching to Terran won't help you if your play is at this level. Interestingly enough, I think you'd actually be *worse* off because Terran doesn't let you pool larvae and spend them all after you missed a production round.
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If you can't spend 2500 minerals and gas with Zerg, I think your macro problems are going to be much, much worse with Terran. You really need to buckle down and work on macro instead of thinking that a race change will fix a fundamental weakness in your play.
LOl goddamn... I have to tech to every unit (banelings, speedlings, infestors, and ultras) and use all their abilities (burrow, fungal growth)... spawn lots of creep... control all the watch towers... out-expand and defend all the expands.... harass... never get supply blocked... get all the upgrades I can for all my units... tech to tier 3 units as quickly as possible
to deal with 1a marines... lulz all day
No, you do not have to do all that to win against 1A marines. Any one or two of those would probably have been enough. However, those are all things that you failed to do, and you should work on all of them.
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Having played against some 800-900 diamond zergs in my time as terran, They can abuse the shit out of you in some games and make you feel like a red headed step child with harassment and sniping your scv's constant air raids and nydus canals keep you on your toes and your mech army spread all over your base trying to keep up. Zerg versus terran isnt broken it. you lost your game for alot of the previously mentioned reasons that and as soon as you saw you were playing a terran your mind fliped a switch that said "Oh Geez Terrans as "overpowered" and this match up sucks so im not even gunna try. Given how shotty your mechanics looked on the replay im guessing your gold level maybe low plat?
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use your resources properly before you complain about anything. You have no right to whine when you have built up so much resources and you haven't maxed out.
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Why dont you just do what every other zerg player does, Mass 50 banelings, and A move. If you upgrade their speed you will crush marine/marauder nearly every time.
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1) apparently you are awful. people have no right to complain about imbalance when you aren't even close to a top tier player really.
2) fungal growth banelings, or broodlords, or just banelings. ultralisks actually sound like a bad idea, since you were behind on upgrades.
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If you actually upgraded and then got the Ultra upgrade, Ultra/Baneling/Ling woulda tore through that army. And by upgraded, I mean the Ultra's have 5 armor and at least 2 attack.
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It's just simply that he was a better player than you. And I'm not saying that to flame you. I am saying that so you don't smash your face into the rocks of "that race is overpowered and unfair against my race" mentality. Everyone has those games with the frustration and confusion. I play terran and I have played matches vs zerg and felt exactly how you did in this game. Same for TvP and TvT. The races are balanced. Each one is just better suited to certain styles of play. Sometimes you just get outplayed, it happens to all of us. So you get up, dust yourself off, and learn from WHY it happened instead of complaining about it.
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yep i quit zerg and played terran. now i have become the dick that goes all in marines on zerg, when i used to lose to it
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146114 I mean look at this. There are people that have problems as terran against zerg. It's all subjective. I notice a few people here posted great advice for you. Instead of worrying so much about your complaining being justifiable, take what they have said and use it to better your playstyle. They are trying to help.
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You really need to work on your macro, I was wincing your gas was stacking so high. The only time you should save up money is if you're taking a huge tech leap to a high tier unit, such as going into ultra's out of nowhere and need to afford the +2 armor upgrade and like 6 ultras.
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On August 22 2010 00:02 Darpa wrote: Why dont you just do what every other zerg player does, Mass 50 banelings, and A move. If you upgrade their speed you will crush marine/marauder nearly every time.
pretty much what i did... awful idea
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On August 22 2010 00:19 aznhockeyboy16 wrote: 1) apparently you are awful. people have no right to complain about imbalance when you aren't even close to a top tier player really.
2) fungal growth banelings, or broodlords, or just banelings. ultralisks actually sound like a bad idea, since you were behind on upgrades.
funny cuz top tier players are also complaining about zvt... and you have to be a to tier player to complain? wow thats super great thinking...
broodlords against mass stimmed marines? do you even play this game?
your advice, like most others are whack... teching to tier 3.5 shouldnt be your only answer to mass marines
fungal growth plus banelings is probably the best bet... but believe i went LOTS of banelings
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On August 22 2010 00:59 Mayerling wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146114I mean look at this. There are people that have problems as terran against zerg. It's all subjective. I notice a few people here posted great advice for you. Instead of worrying so much about your complaining being justifiable, take what they have said and use it to better your playstyle. They are trying to help.
oh i have, from the people who had real advice... most didn't thoug
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On August 22 2010 01:47 Fruscainte wrote: You really need to work on your macro, I was wincing your gas was stacking so high. The only time you should save up money is if you're taking a huge tech leap to a high tier unit, such as going into ultra's out of nowhere and need to afford the +2 armor upgrade and like 6 ultras.
i really really debated going ultra when i saw my money go up... but you've seen how marauder just make butter out of ultras right? i didnt think they'd be affective against the marines either
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On August 21 2010 20:19 Dead9 wrote:![[image loading]](http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3695/87724531.png)
Your using the unit editer in which the marines have nowhere to run. Totally out of context.
But I too expected it turn out this way. It was frustrating when I found it wasn't.
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It didn't because he micro'd whereas you didn't.
Banelings are a fine counter to marines - when you flank them.
If you can't flank them because it's too hard, then just make infestors.
Also, if you had spent your minerals/gas on roaches + hydras and upgrades, and fought on creep, I doubt you would've lost.
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On August 21 2010 20:26 Cade)Flayer wrote:Seriously... That Zerg in the replay was just beyond awful with his unit control. Keep your units in a ball and attack move, it's not hard. The problem with the Zerg in that game is that every fight he streamed his units in in a big conga line. Embarrassing.
Keep your units in a ball and attack move? You don't play Zerg do you...
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On August 22 2010 05:06 Azarkon wrote: It didn't because he micro'd whereas you didn't.
Banelings are a fine counter to marines - when you flank them.
If you can't flank them because it's too hard, then just make infestors.
Also, if you had spent your minerals/gas on roaches + hydras and upgrades, and fought on creep, I doubt you would've lost.
Yea, I should have gone infestors and roaches. I mean honestly once I had banelings out. I thought, oh this is over, the banelings will kill and my left over roaches and hydras will end game. Hence why, I may have gotten lazy with my tech. But the mariens come out SO fast to refortify. Especially with all the minerals you get with mules. I was NOT expecting that. Terran is the new swarm.
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uhh how come i get a warning from tl.bot when one of the mods came on here with the single most unconstructive and insulting posts... is this just how it's done in this community?
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On August 22 2010 05:31 moosh wrote: uhh how come i get a warning from tl.bot when one of the mods came on here with the single most unconstructive and insulting posts... is this just how it's done in this community?
Because you keep ignoring the posts explaining why you lost, which is just that you are plain bad and have terrible macro. Instead of acknowledging this, you continue to selectively respond to posts that discuss balance and unit compositions, as if you were actually at a level of play where that matters. You have bad macro. He could of massed ghosts and 1a'd into you for an easy win. Stop talking about balance and units when you don't even understand how to create units properly.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 22 2010 05:01 moosh wrote: funny cuz top tier players are also complaining about zvt... and you have to be a to tier player to complain? wow thats super great thinking... Top tier players also never complain about bio. As far as I'm aware, any diamond zerg would jump for joy if they saw a Terran stupid enough to go pure bio in TvZ.
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On August 22 2010 05:09 moosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 20:26 Cade)Flayer wrote:Seriously... That Zerg in the replay was just beyond awful with his unit control. Keep your units in a ball and attack move, it's not hard. The problem with the Zerg in that game is that every fight he streamed his units in in a big conga line. Embarrassing. Keep your units in a ball and attack move? You don't play Zerg do you...
Dude stop trolling and take some of the advice given to you... The only reason this thread is still going is because people keep coming back to see your retarded responses so what good players are telling youo to do.
I'm 800+ Diamond as Zerg.
Banelings would have worked just fine had you just macrod effectively.
I'm going to say the important part again:
Macro. Effectively.
This means produce units BEFORE you have 2k minerals/ 2k gas at 60 supply.
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look, there are some issues with ZvT. but saying this is bad for the imba movement. It just makes all us zergs seem like whiners, its gotten to the point where all the talk just needs to stop. the point has been made, hopefully it gets fixed, if not...i understand your frustration but i think T is not the reason for the loss
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On August 22 2010 06:08 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 05:09 moosh wrote:On August 21 2010 20:26 Cade)Flayer wrote:Seriously... That Zerg in the replay was just beyond awful with his unit control. Keep your units in a ball and attack move, it's not hard. The problem with the Zerg in that game is that every fight he streamed his units in in a big conga line. Embarrassing. Keep your units in a ball and attack move? You don't play Zerg do you... Dude stop trolling and take some of the advice given to you... The only reason this thread is still going is because people keep coming back to see your retarded responses so what good players are telling youo to do. I'm 800+ Diamond as Zerg. Banelings would have worked just fine had you just macrod effectively. I'm going to say the important part again: Macro. Effectively. This means produce units BEFORE you have 2k minerals/ 2k gas at 60 supply. I don't intend to troll but in-game it seems you've underestimated your opponent while overestimating yourself.
Something you could've exploited was the fact that he had no raven, so burrowed banelings could have done terrible terrible damage.
But I think Mr.Bitter has discussed everything else there is to discuss.
EDIT: Also this
On August 22 2010 06:09 hEndO wrote: look, there are some issues with ZvT. but saying this is bad for the imba movement. It just makes all us zergs seem like whiners, its gotten to the point where all the talk just needs to stop. the point has been made, hopefully it gets fixed, if not...i understand your frustration but i think T is not the reason for the loss
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Moosh You have got to be the single most thick skulled person to ASK for advice ever. ALOT of these people are 10x the sc2 player as you and are exactly who you want to listen too. But your arrogance and ignorance won't let you see past your own ego and accept that you sucked in that game you didnt do half of the right things you could have done to turn the game around and you choose losing battle after losing battle instead of picking the right unit comp and striking at the right time. Your a mess and your battle with the rest of the posters on your Thread isnt going to end well for you but make you look as I have described you earlier in this paragraph. Please either A) Stop posting for help your immune to OR B) start accepting facts and people's idea's on how to improve and counter something as SILLY as Marine all in which should have NO CHANCE IN HELL OF WORKING on a half decent zerg.
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Get a few infestors, Fungal Growth and then RAM your banelings in.
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This thread:
OP: I just lost to this strat, how do I beat it? TL Posters: Using X, Y, Z tactics OP: OMFG TERRAN IMBALANCE
On August 22 2010 06:13 Meldrath wrote:Marine all in which should have NO CHANCE IN HELL OF WORKING on a half decent zerg.
Just saying, Morrow did just win 3/5 from Dimaga using mostly Marines. So its not like it can never work, but it does require you to actually micro and use other supporting units rather than just 1A with mono-rines.
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On August 22 2010 05:09 moosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 20:26 Cade)Flayer wrote:Seriously... That Zerg in the replay was just beyond awful with his unit control. Keep your units in a ball and attack move, it's not hard. The problem with the Zerg in that game is that every fight he streamed his units in in a big conga line. Embarrassing. Keep your units in a ball and attack move? You don't play Zerg do you...
Sorry to point this out, but at your level, if you just macroed more and 1a moved drones as your only army agst marines you probably could have won. I dont think you need to be discussing balance at your level because your basics are so horrid.
You really don't have an excuse for that screenshot. 52/78 with all that resource at 19+ min? you gotta be kidding me.
edit: And I watched your 2nd replay, and it was just as bad. at 1 point you had 4x the drones as your opponent, but far less army and struggling.... despite him not even harassing you. WTF.
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i wish people would stop using rapidshare and use another site that is actually meant for sc2 replays.
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On August 22 2010 06:22 SoFFacet wrote:This thread: OP: I just lost to this strat, how do I beat it? TL Posters: Using X, Y, Z tactics OP: OMFG TERRAN IMBALANCE Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 06:13 Meldrath wrote:Marine all in which should have NO CHANCE IN HELL OF WORKING on a half decent zerg.
Just saying, Morrow did just win 3/5 from Dimaga using mostly Marines. So its not like it can never work, but it does require you to actually micro and use other supporting units rather than just 1A with mono-rines. I have yet to see those games so I cannot rebuke your argument as this time. I will say Support and micro allways makes units better and more viable if you noticed in my thread as did others. Point out 100 other things he did poorly or not at all to lose this game. I would like to see what "support" units the marines had as well as how the game unfolded alot of that would have to do with why he would lose to such a strat as well as why Morrow would choose to stay on such low tech units.
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Someone has already mentioned this and its just so simple and effective--- INFESTERS. Thats the problem with most Zerg players I think, they rarely use infesters in their army composition. (even me but don't worry about that I'm no pro.) Fungal growth- stops the bio ball in its tracks. Neural parasite- steals those medivacs away from the bioball, also making them heal your completely biological army (for a short time.)
Infesters are WAY more cost effective then ultras. For one, its at least a thousand less gas. (cost for upgrading to hive, gas for the ultralisk den, 200 gas per ultra, gas for the armor upgrade, gas for evo chambers, gas for regular army upgrades...) The weird thing? you're going to have an infestation pit anyways if you're teching to ultras. If you have the pit, then why not use it? Oh and having some banelings in the mix too would be good. Can't go wrong with either of these units.
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Horrible macro, that's all
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Infestor+baneling really does a number on pure marines. I assume a dozen people already said this but I know that one from experience.
Banelings don't do too much against marines if they can stim and kite but if you get a FG on them it is generally game over.
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I did take everyones advice? If my macro is bad then I wouldn't play a macro heavy race anymore. So i'm trying Terran. I really think it'd be much easier for me to pick up. Thanks.
User was warned for this post
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On August 22 2010 06:44 moosh wrote: I did take everyones advice? If my macro is bad then I wouldn't play a macro heavy race anymore. So i'm trying Terran. I really think it'd be much easier for me to pick up. Thanks.
So... in summary... I won't try to improve I'll just do something differnt
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On August 21 2010 16:38 Sevenofnines wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A few things from the replay. The first thing you need to do is remove the assumption that you outmacroed or outplayed the Terran player, because you did not. Reasons are below.
1. Yes you had more bases, but macro is more than just the number of bases, but also includes how well you are able to spend those resources. There's no use in having a ton of bases if you can't spend your money fast enough, which leads to...
2. A huge excess of larva. What's the point in injecting extra larva if you aren't going to use them. All you are doing is losing out on your naturally occuring larva. If you are short on resources, spend the energy on creep tumors instead. If you have a ton of money, USE UP YOUR LARVA.
3. Your creep spreading was extremely poor. NONE of your 4 bases were connected to each other. Given the length of the game that is inexcusable. Even on that map, you should have at least connected to your natural and probably your 3rd at the gold.
4. Getting supply blocked. You certainly had enough resources to make a ton of Overlords. All you did was limit the size of your army to roughly the same food count as his, and eventually lower than his. And you stayed at that food capacity (~80-90) for pretty much the whole game. I should add that since half of your food was Drones, your actual fighting units was substantially lower than his in nearly EVERY major encounter. So no, its not a surprise you got owned even by "just marines".
For example: A. Battle at his natural ~18:45. Food count is his 68 vs your 78. However you have 39 Drones to his 28 SCV's. So its actually your 39 food army vs his 40, which is dead even. However he had a Bunker, and for some reason you sent all your Banelings to take out his Bunker instead of the mass of marines. Probably would have been better to blow up his marines ball and let the roaches kill the bunker. Poor control on your part because this was certainly a winnable fight.
B. That battle at his natural ~21:46. His food count is 101 vs your 87. However he only has 29 SCV's to your 37 Drones so his actual fighting force is 72 food vs your 50. Advantage him big time. Afterwards you complain about how this was so dumb, but your fate was sealed when you decided to attack an army nearly 50% larger than yours.
C. The final battle. Your 129 food vs. his 134 food; you have 34 Drones to his 19 SCV's, so its actually your 95 food army vs his 115 which is about a 20% advantage for him. Also, your control here was awful as it was a pretty obvious 1A into a larger army. Your units arrived in a line directly into his concave. Nearly all of his marines were firing on you immediately, while your units in the back were still filing up the ramp. If you had balled up first and then moved in, you probably could have won even with his numbers advantage due to your Banelings. But the poor control here cost you.
4. You had HUGE excess resources but had 0/0/0 on upgrades until near the end, while the Terran had +1 attack for most of the game. With the amount of excess you money you had, why not throw down another evo chamber and double upgrade. You probably could have gotten to level 2 upgrades across the board given the length of that game.
In conclusion, you did NOT outmacro or even outplay the Terran player. You just had more bases than him which is only one part of "macro". You didn't even saturate the bases, as I don't think you ever went over 40 Drones. 40 Drones cannot even fully saturate 2 bases, let alone 3 or 4. In essence, you had wasted bases, even more so since you never managed to use the extra larva effectively. He did a better job of spending his money while you let huge reserves build up. He did a better job with upgrades for the majority of the game as you were 0/0/0 for most of the game. He did a better job picking his fights as you constantly attacked into larger armies for the entire game. He did a better job controlling his units and making sure his marines could get a decent concave while you were letting things line up like a firing squad. He did a better job with supply, as you were constantly supply blocked despite the capacity to easily produce to 200 supply worth of overlords. Your creep expansion was non-existant. In other words, your play was worse than his in everything other than making new bases. Bases which you could not take advantage of due to supply block, resource glutting, and no creep.
Bottomline: The right person won that game .
Didn't see you respond to this message. It's pretty much the best answer you got. Not only does it explain why you lost, it also brings out all your false assumptions about your macro and the need for zerg to have multiple tech.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On August 22 2010 06:44 moosh wrote: I did take everyones advice? If my macro is bad then I wouldn't play a macro heavy race anymore. So i'm trying Terran. I really think it'd be much easier for me to pick up. Thanks.
How stubborn can you be?
What's the difference between pressing 1s zzzzzzzrrrrrrrrrr and pressing 1 aaaaaaaadddddddddd
Hint: NONE. Your macro won't be better because you play Terran, you won't win more games. You are just looking for excuses for your loses.
You avoid every good piece of advice spoon-fed to you by way better players and just aim for the balance comments to cry more? That's both stupid and unrespectful for the people wasting their time typing responses for you.
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