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United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:44 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 05:10 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 05:00 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 04:56 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 04:52 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 04:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I don't actually like the concept of a "farm jungler". Jungling is intrinsically safer than laning and harder to counterpick, because the jungler is mostly PvEing out of sight of the opposing team. It feels awfully broken if a champion that has a very bad laning phase can just hide in the jungle and farm for 20 minutes (occasionally going around for a kill) yet still has similar farm to a solo lane. The jungle will still be less than a lane (though an argument can be made that the jungler can not miss CS like a laner can). Also, counterjungling is destructive, something that we have forgotten in S2 jungle. Considering the new big monster is like, 80% of a camp's farm (someone correct me on that), people like Nunu, Shy, etc, (who can kill the big monster quckly and escape) can shut down farm junglers pretty easily, even if they don't fight them directly. Plus, a farm jungler isn't helping their team, so even if they are getting "safe, free farm", the enemy jungler has made the enemy team much stronger than what that one person with jungle farm can make up for. You can't steal camps from someone who keeps them perpetually cleared. If farm jungling became a thing you'd need a concerted team strategy to catch and control them. That somewhat depends on what paths are. If we keep the same Wolves-Blue-Wraiths-Wolves-Red-Wraiths path, someone like Nunu starting blue, stealing big Wraith, and then going back to his own jungle puts the enemy way behind currently, and he can keep that up throughout the game. Warding the enemy jungle helps that, as well. First, the big Wraith is only worth 25g now. Second, "if he can keep that up the entire game" is a big if. There are huge risks involved in invading enemy territory, and one death will erase 12 successful thefts. Risks which are, in my opinion, worth stopping a Jax or Trynd from farming uninterrupted if they wish. I know I keep using Nunu as an example, but he's the quintissential counterjungler for a reason. The ability to kill a big monster (or even buff monster) slow chasers, and then sprint out will be pretty invaluable against someone who isn't ganking and just spends all their time killing jungle camps. You're risking giving the enemy team 300-475g over a Wraith worth 25-30g, every single time you try for it. Meanwhile, as theYango pointed out, your ability to do anything else suffers severely. I respect that you have an opinion, but you're crazy if you think that kind of risk is worth it. Who says it has to be the Wraith every time? Control/counterjungle champions are the primier choices for stealing buffs, and nabbing Big Golem has aways been easy, and now actually worth doing. Maybe it's just lower ELO, but warding Red/Blue on certain counterjunglers (again, Nunu being one of the best) is massive for shutting down the enemy jungle and, of course, denying mid Blue.
Buff stealing is only a one-man affair in low Elo where lanes don't respond to counterjungling. In higher levels and arranged play, contesting buffs is virtually always going to be 2-4 person affair, which means that practically speaking, those engagements are centered around the ability of small-scale teamfighters/skirmishers, and not solo counterjunglers.
On November 17 2012 05:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:49 TheYango wrote:On November 17 2012 05:41 Requizen wrote:
In my mind, it's like this. Take a one sided matchup like Jayce vs Garen (or at least this is what I hear, I haven't specifically played it). If Garen plays dumb, and gets killed trying to farm and lane like normal, he should be punished. If he plays safe, and sacrifices farm but doesn't give kills and/or allow Jayce to roam, he shouldn't be punished that badly. So basically your thought process is that Jayce should only be able to really get ahead if Garen makes a mistake, and not if Jayce plays well? I don't like that thought process because I don't think that's a practical way of approaching the way the game is played when you're looking at games between Korean top laners where not enough mistakes are made for that to happen. The inherent asymmetry of this is exactly what makes the draft, and the game in general, interesting--how teams handle their different strengths and weaknesses in matchups that are inherently bad or good in the long run--both in how they pick team compositions and how they play the game. Semantics. I say "Garen plays bad", but that also includes "Jayce playing better". I'm just saying if both are playing equally, the one who got stuck in a bad matchup shouldn't be fucked just because they picked a certain champ.
Again, I disagree with that.
The inherent lopsidedness of lane matchups is what creates the asymmetry necessary to make a game like this interesting. What you are asking for is tantamount to people always suggesting that Starcraft be balanced by making the races more similar, rather than embracing the inherent asymmetry of the game.
A team entering a game will pick some bad matchups and some good matchups (and a team that picked all bad matchups deserves to lose for having an inferior draft/lane arrangement). How they leverage the bad matchups by making use of the advantage in their good matchups is what makes the game interesting, and it's less so if you make all lane matchups inherently more even.
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On November 17 2012 05:19 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2012 15:33 Gahlo wrote:
Can't believe the anti-lol Turd Biscuit is getting an item. Grow up Do you have people that link you "flame post" against you, because I see a response from you almost everytime, or do you actually read LoL General Discussion, just curious.
I search my own username every now and then. I can't imagine others not doing this too.
So, S3 changes. Pretty big hehe.
Also that new Nida. Me-yow! Time to learn how to play Nidalee.
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You guys should bug Morello on that AMA about the jungle gold changes. He's saying on it that junglers will be getting more gold from clearing the jungle, but this appears to not be the case?
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On November 17 2012 05:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:49 TheYango wrote:On November 17 2012 05:41 Requizen wrote:
In my mind, it's like this. Take a one sided matchup like Jayce vs Garen (or at least this is what I hear, I haven't specifically played it). If Garen plays dumb, and gets killed trying to farm and lane like normal, he should be punished. If he plays safe, and sacrifices farm but doesn't give kills and/or allow Jayce to roam, he shouldn't be punished that badly. So basically your thought process is that Jayce should only be able to really get ahead if Garen makes a mistake, and not if Jayce plays well? I don't like that thought process because I don't think that's a practical way of approaching the way the game is played when you're looking at games between Korean top laners where not enough mistakes are made for that to happen. The inherent asymmetry of this is exactly what makes the draft, and the game in general, interesting--how teams handle their different strengths and weaknesses in matchups that are inherently bad or good in the long run--both in how they pick team compositions and how they play the game. Semantics. I say "Garen plays bad", but that also includes "Jayce playing better". I'm just saying if both are playing equally, the one who got stuck in a bad matchup shouldn't be fucked just because they picked a certain champ.
I think Yango is right on this one. There are going to be hard counterpicks in this game, whether you like it or not. You should be able to delay the inevitable getting combo'd/killed in lane a long time through good itemization and play, but the ultimate solution will have to be a lane swap of some sort. You're just not going to be able to balance several dozen top laners so that they all can have at most a bad matchup.
I do think that ranged bruisers like jayce that can poop on any melee without an instant gap closer are very bad though. Absolutely no reason why if you misposition you should still be able to outtrade and get away from the other guy.
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On November 17 2012 05:19 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2012 15:33 Gahlo wrote:
Can't believe the anti-lol Turd Biscuit is getting an item. Grow up Do you have people that link you "flame post" against you, because I see a response from you almost everytime, or do you actually read LoL General Discussion, just curious.
I lurk this thread. I do play LoL, most people know that, I regularly (or at least I did) produce video content for League.
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On November 17 2012 05:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:52 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 05:44 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 05:10 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 05:00 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 04:56 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 04:52 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 04:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I don't actually like the concept of a "farm jungler". Jungling is intrinsically safer than laning and harder to counterpick, because the jungler is mostly PvEing out of sight of the opposing team. It feels awfully broken if a champion that has a very bad laning phase can just hide in the jungle and farm for 20 minutes (occasionally going around for a kill) yet still has similar farm to a solo lane. The jungle will still be less than a lane (though an argument can be made that the jungler can not miss CS like a laner can). Also, counterjungling is destructive, something that we have forgotten in S2 jungle. Considering the new big monster is like, 80% of a camp's farm (someone correct me on that), people like Nunu, Shy, etc, (who can kill the big monster quckly and escape) can shut down farm junglers pretty easily, even if they don't fight them directly. Plus, a farm jungler isn't helping their team, so even if they are getting "safe, free farm", the enemy jungler has made the enemy team much stronger than what that one person with jungle farm can make up for. You can't steal camps from someone who keeps them perpetually cleared. If farm jungling became a thing you'd need a concerted team strategy to catch and control them. That somewhat depends on what paths are. If we keep the same Wolves-Blue-Wraiths-Wolves-Red-Wraiths path, someone like Nunu starting blue, stealing big Wraith, and then going back to his own jungle puts the enemy way behind currently, and he can keep that up throughout the game. Warding the enemy jungle helps that, as well. First, the big Wraith is only worth 25g now. Second, "if he can keep that up the entire game" is a big if. There are huge risks involved in invading enemy territory, and one death will erase 12 successful thefts. Risks which are, in my opinion, worth stopping a Jax or Trynd from farming uninterrupted if they wish. I know I keep using Nunu as an example, but he's the quintissential counterjungler for a reason. The ability to kill a big monster (or even buff monster) slow chasers, and then sprint out will be pretty invaluable against someone who isn't ganking and just spends all their time killing jungle camps. You're risking giving the enemy team 300-475g over a Wraith worth 25-30g, every single time you try for it. Meanwhile, as theYango pointed out, your ability to do anything else suffers severely. I respect that you have an opinion, but you're crazy if you think that kind of risk is worth it. Who says it has to be the Wraith every time? Control/counterjungle champions are the primier choices for stealing buffs, and nabbing Big Golem has aways been easy, and now actually worth doing. Maybe it's just lower ELO, but warding Red/Blue on certain counterjunglers (again, Nunu being one of the best) is massive for shutting down the enemy jungle and, of course, denying mid Blue. Buff stealing is only a one-man affair in low Elo where lanes don't respond to counterjungling. In higher levels and arranged play, contesting buffs is virtually always going to be 2-4 person affair, which means that practically speaking, those engagements are centered around the ability of small-scale teamfighters/skirmishers, and not solo counterjunglers. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:55 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 05:49 TheYango wrote:On November 17 2012 05:41 Requizen wrote:
In my mind, it's like this. Take a one sided matchup like Jayce vs Garen (or at least this is what I hear, I haven't specifically played it). If Garen plays dumb, and gets killed trying to farm and lane like normal, he should be punished. If he plays safe, and sacrifices farm but doesn't give kills and/or allow Jayce to roam, he shouldn't be punished that badly. So basically your thought process is that Jayce should only be able to really get ahead if Garen makes a mistake, and not if Jayce plays well? I don't like that thought process because I don't think that's a practical way of approaching the way the game is played when you're looking at games between Korean top laners where not enough mistakes are made for that to happen. The inherent asymmetry of this is exactly what makes the draft, and the game in general, interesting--how teams handle their different strengths and weaknesses in matchups that are inherently bad or good in the long run--both in how they pick team compositions and how they play the game. Semantics. I say "Garen plays bad", but that also includes "Jayce playing better". I'm just saying if both are playing equally, the one who got stuck in a bad matchup shouldn't be fucked just because they picked a certain champ. Again, I disagree with that. The inherent lopsidedness of lane matchups is what creates the asymmetry necessary to make a game like this interesting. What you are asking for is tantamount to people always suggesting that Starcraft be balanced by making the races more similar, rather than embracing the inherent asymmetry of the game.
I'm just not a fan of snowballing in general. I'm of the feeling that lane matchups should give you an advantage, not be "oh, I'll be half as effective as my lane opponent because he counter-picked me. Sorry team". I'm not saying it should be easy to come back from disadvantages, only possible.
As for counterjungling, as I said, it is probably just at my current ELO. But Nunu used to be a super consistent jungle pick simply for his ability to counter jungle in S1, which is one of the reasons I bought him in the first place. Since they're effectively negating some of the changes that made the S2 jungle easier than the S1 jungle, I just want it to move more towards that paradigm again.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 06:05 Requizen wrote:
I'm just not a fan of snowballing in general. I'm of the feeling that lane matchups should give you an advantage, not be "oh, I'll be half as effective as my lane opponent because he counter-picked me. Sorry team". I'm not saying it should be easy to come back from disadvantages, only possible.
You're vastly overstating the snowballing effect of lost lanes, particularly in the scenario when a player actually plays it properly.
Go back and look at the advantageous top lane matchups from World's--in the cases where the laners actually played calmly and really tried to stabilize, the situation was reasonable. Irelia vs. Jayce in Najin vs. TPA for example. Maknoon got a big early lead and Stanley even died to gank, but for the most part, Stanley's item choice and safe play more or less let him stabilize and not let it spiral out of control.
You're assuming that much more of the snowballing that happens in lane comes from lane matchups than is actually the case.
On November 17 2012 06:05 Requizen wrote:
As for counterjungling, as I said, it is probably just at my current ELO. But Nunu used to be a super consistent jungle pick simply for his ability to counter jungle in S1, which is one of the reasons I bought him in the first place. Since they're effectively negating some of the changes that made the S2 jungle easier than the S1 jungle, I just want it to move more towards that paradigm again.
The biggest point of effectiveness for counterjungling in general was the longer respawn timers, which encouraged consistent re-clearing and timing individual jungle camps. You could be much more proactive in the S1 jungle because you'd clear an enemy camp, and plan to get it on CD 100 seconds later when the enemy doesn't have the exact respawn timer of their camp, so they can't plan similarly.
The S2 jungle made this inherently responsive--60 seconds is too restrictive for you to clear the whole camp and expect to be back right when it respawns, so you take a big monster and leave--but this means that the enemy always has the respawn timer on the camp that you stole, which makes stealing that camp inherently riskier, because they know when you can be back.
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Regen garen is actually alright against jayce now that they nerfed his E and if you get really fed and get brutalizer+tabi+dolans you can kill him after long and hard struggles to get past his knock back.
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I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes.
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On November 17 2012 06:18 Kouda wrote:
I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes.
I don't get the irrational shitting on LoL all the time by TB. It goes both ways buddy.
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On November 17 2012 06:21 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 06:18 Kouda wrote:
I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes. I don't get the irrational shitting on LoL all the time by TB. It goes both ways buddy.
He just said he plays LoL in this thread...
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On November 17 2012 06:21 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 06:18 Kouda wrote:
I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes. I don't get the irrational shitting on LoL all the time by TB. It goes both ways buddy.
I don't even remember him saying anything bad about LoL apart from a joke picture of an empty audience a few weeks back.
On that note: Which item did he get in the game?
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The audience joke picture was honestly pretty crass. But so is people holding a grudge about it.
It's the internet folks. If there's any drama it's because y'all are equally responsible for making it.
Can't we just all play video games. I like this thread, I don't want it to devolve into whining about who said what.
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On November 17 2012 06:21 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 06:18 Kouda wrote:
I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes. I don't get the irrational shitting on LoL all the time by TB. It goes both ways buddy.
If you actually read what he says, he was just frustrated at the fact that he didn't get what was promised from the referrals.
If you actually looked up shit before talking, you'd realize he maybe enjoys the game for what it is. lol
edit:
He got a mastery named after himself and an item that comes from the new mastery.
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Not too surprising, I doubt the PBE can handle the player capacity that the main servers do.
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Well I'd be pissed as well at Riot if I had brought them thousands of players with my recommendation and than they go back on what they advertised as a reward for it.
I guess an item isn't too bad either,but still.
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On November 17 2012 05:48 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:19 AsnSensation wrote:On November 17 2012 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2012 15:33 Gahlo wrote:
Can't believe the anti-lol Turd Biscuit is getting an item. Grow up Do you have people that link you "flame post" against you, because I see a response from you almost everytime, or do you actually read LoL General Discussion, just curious. Maybe if I start shitting all over the game I could get an item as well!
That's not why he got an item named after him.....
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First PvP Nidalee game!
... barely outfarm (and kill twice) and Heimerdinger top, that I'd have murdered with my usual tops. T_T
Meow-lady so hard to use well.
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I think we're all missing the real issue here.
Has the Dunkmaster been nerfed or buffed with the new item and mastery changes?
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On November 17 2012 06:21 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 06:18 Kouda wrote:
I don't get the irrational hate for TB lol. TL LoL so stupid sometimes. I don't get the irrational shitting on LoL all the time by TB. It goes both ways buddy.
so many people calling each out in here lately...
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EPT
