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On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
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Guys, when were throwing the word "lazy" around in conjunction with foreigners, can we remember that this is only "lazy" relative to the Korean's. They still practice hard... relative to many other people (in some other professions anyway)
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Something has to be said for exposure to higher levels of competition across the board as Koreans spread out. Depending on which Koreans go where, the level of play is forced to improve to match the caliber of opponents that players have to face. What I mean is, the foreign component either becomes stronger or the Koreans who stray too far from the tip top level become worse and fall behind their counterparts in Korea. We have to see how this idea plays out over some time. Can't expect it to happen overnight.
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On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
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On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
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On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
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On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
You think code b players have it easy? I don't think so. I think it's a lot easier for foreigners to get noticed rather than Koreans since the level of competition in Korea is ridiculously high and even getting out of code b is a feat in itself. To get noticed you need to get to the top of the ladder or be an entertaining streamer or get into code b a. Getting top of na is easier than kr
Champions have to make sacrifices to win in most cases. A recent exception is polt who is a one man clan who won dream hack beating kespa players while learning English and getting a degree. He might have trained in a team before but he has been solo for a while now and has irl stuff so it shows being a champ is partially having the right attitude and determination. Polt's English has improved so much. That is called determination of a champ. You can't get that from culture.
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I've always thought the foreigner/korean terminology used by casters, players and some fans to be pretty silly, and quite self defeating. In BW it made some sense since the pro scene was almost entirely in Korea, now its not so dramatically the case. When the best players fly in from Korea to say MLG, Dreamhack, w/e, and in your matches against them you're basically the 'away team' (foreigner), even if you're playing in your home country, it can deflate your confidence quite easily. The skill of the Koreans is great, but not insurmountable. It would be nice if the language would change in that regard, but of course I don't expect that to happen without nice 'foreigner' results (good luck getting that while everyone puts your opponents up on a pedestal!)
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On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion?
My opinion isn't very important over the opinion of others, which is why I didn't feel the need to be active in this thread (when it comes to writing replies) and my responses would be redundant with whats already been said. Most of the comments in here are theoretical anyway. Its the consensus that matters most. Granted that, I will weigh in on the infrastructure thing as well.
I'm enjoying the discussion since there are a lot of people who are giving well thought out replies.
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On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
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On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
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It's all for the same reason that the big school in your provice/state/area with 2000 students had a better football team than the school with 200 students. The teams have a better pool of competitive players to pull from.
The country is an environment which breeds e-sports players. If you have a whole lot of them, then clearly the teams can pick and choose the best players for their teams, and these are the players we end up seeing at tournaments.
England? Canada? USA? Europe? Not nearly as many players, not nearly the size of a player pool, so only a few people actually have the talent that can take on a Korean pro heads up.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
Mvp was in Korea when playing in WCS eu, not in germany, dont spread lies
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On July 04 2013 08:06 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote:
The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War. Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans. A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples: Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice) I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat):
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
uhhh you can stick your head in the sand deny all you want.
Koreans are that dominant and it's been getting worse. you can cherry pick some wins sure, but overall its not even close.
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On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
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It's because Koreans already knew how to become godlike at progaming since before computer games even existed due to their history with Go, another instance where they wound up consistently dominating at a game invented by another country.
Just kidding, I have no idea if there's any connection between Koreans being amazingly good at those two games. In any case, I don't think it's being too Orientalist to say that the culture is just very into being super competitive, and putting in countless grueling hours into a thing in order to really master it. They're good at Starcraft because they like it. Other countries are keeping up better in League of Legends, I believe, because it's just more popular around the world. Sirlin compared the early stage of a Starcraft game to being more similar to DDR than any kind of game where you fight your opponent directly, and that's always going to limit the number of people who really get into it.
Ultimately I think that, for Americans, focusing on Koreans is dodging the real problem, which is how awful the US scene is and if there's anything that can be possibly be done about it.
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On July 07 2013 05:04 mouzIllusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win.
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On July 07 2013 03:38 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends. If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
I get the feeling that if an e-sport would be treated in exactly the same way as football is for instance at high schools, that is training very hard in a controlled way while still maintaining a social life, talent would bloom rather similarly to Koreans. Most youths have to grind ladder games to get better, even having one general e-sports coach for the entire class would probably improve training a lot. A lot of Asian countries have insane practice regiments for a lot of sports, but they don't win everything, not even close as a matter of fact. But honestly, South Korea is at the moment the only country that really embraced e-sports as a whole with Starcraft as their crown jewel, so it makes sense that they'd dominate the game until another country embraces it the way the Koreans do.
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On July 07 2013 05:04 mouzIllusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
You're still a teen so I'll ignore the aggressiveness and pointless insults.
Anyway, are you not proving my point? You simply gave more excuses on why foreigners shouldn't practice hard. If you ask yourself "am I giving 100% effort. Am I doing everything in my power to become the best SC2 player" and the answer is no, then you have no business complaining. It's as simple as that. The fact you are typing your name into TL search and attacking someone you don't know instead of practicing simply strengthens my argument and weakens yours.
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