You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years).
The whole thing becomes even more convoluted when tournaments that ARE region locked occur like Shoutcraft America and people complain that the quality of matches is poor.
It's like what? The same people that argue that Koreans should be omitted from competing then turn around and complain that an all foreigner tournament isn't fun to watch?
What it comes down to is that people want to watch Foreigners beat Koreans but they don't like watching them lose to Koreans, so we get mixed reactions that are fickle in nature to begin with. That's my observation anyway, but I agree with your overall statement.
Having Koreans compete isn't something fundamentally unfair, the best foreigners will still compete.
The only way to be on the Korean level is by spending a ton of time training hardcore in Korea, the same way the the Koreans get that good. There isn't the infrastructure in the rest of the world to compete at the highest level, the best a player can expect from only playing on NA/EU against NA/EU players is to occasionally take map or Bo3 against mid-tier Koreans and that's very bleak.
We've been playing SC2 for long enough to have the evidence to back this up too, guys like Socke and Demuslim are great players and have the potential to be world beaters imo, but they aren't going to beat Life in a Bo7 unless they practiced in a Korea for a year or two and got to that level first. Naniwa, Huk, Idra, Thorzain etc. got to their highest skill levels by extended Korean style training in Korea. The rest of the world has shown it can't create players the same quality over the past few years, even with teamhouses (though it's a start).
The rest of the world can't compete because there isn't as much high level competition forcing constant improvements, nor are there many players training 70 hours a week like the dedicated Koreans do. Anyone who gets the chance to train with the best has a shot at becoming the best, but only Koreans get to train with the best.
What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years).
But that is nothing that cannot be copied with sufficient commitment. Or how on earth could Polt have won MLG last weekend?
At the start of a new game I feel things are pretty equal, which they were, with foreigners making decent runs and even winning over Koreans, but slowly but surely the superior practice (especially now with Kespa) environments and regiments start to kick in which makes it nearly impossible for a foreigner to ever become known as "the best".
I'm pretty sure there are some people around like Stephano and viOlet who can develop amazing skill without being in that environment. They found ways to practice efficiently and improve their play by training a smart way. Stephano in 2012 or viOlet could beat pretty much anyone on a good day, but of course, they weren't invincible themselves.
But now, with players like Innovation, Soulkey, Roro, Rain and Flash running around, there's a whole bunch of people who are just going to be mechanically superior because of their incredible training regiment and environment, and who are basically just as smart as any amazing foreigner (except arguably Innovation, who says himself he mostly relies on mechanics). While of course all these players can still be beaten by a foreigner, we're talking about a foreigner actually being superior here, and I feel that you'd at least need something close to that environment AND mentality.
But you can't just build a team house and place the best foreigners in there with a coach and hope for the best. Most foreigners wouldn't be suited for such a place. All the Kespa-people mentioned above are at this point completely used to their training regiment and environment, so they can maximize their efforts. They already started around 2000 building teams and what not, and all of them have pretty much grown up in this environment. If you'd consider SC2 to be our SC:BW, it takes at least 4-5 years from the start for serious teams to be formed and for this training housing to really become a thing, and then take another 2-3 years for people to really get used to it.. and then suddenly, TBLS appeared. And now, a few years later, a different group (besides Flash) of great players appeared. All really smart players who are also completely used to their awesome training environment.
If we'd ever hope to compete with that, it's going to take a while. The main problem is most of the Korean players lived in or near Seoul, so moving was less of a big deal than for most foreigners, who maybe have to travel to another country. But disregarding that, first we'd have to get people motivated to work together in a training house and to get used to that, maybe having team leagues to stimulate that and then after many years of getting used to an environment like that, and people really dedicating to it like Koreans are (obviously ignoring the other big problem: how "weird" it is to do such a thing in most countries besides Korea), there's no reason the foreign player would be mechanically nearly even to the Korean counterparts, and then when an exceptionally talented foreigner shows up, immediately making the most out of this Korean-like environment, this person could definitely be at the level of a top Korean.
TL;DR: Right now I don't see it happening, but with the right long-term plan while learning from Korea, there could be one in the future!
I think that HuK once mentioned that he didn't have "slaves that [he] could get to play all of these games with [him]."
So I guess to deal with the question, BW in Korea (and I'm assuming that their infrastructure didn't change for SC2) had proteams with practice partners they could go to and get their BOs, their mechanics, and even specific things polished properly as well as other high-level players to play with. Most foreigners can't just call someone up and practice 10 hours straight on a specific map or set of conditions and as such would make the difference pretty profound.
The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote: The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
Koreans have proleague , so they have teams and houses and some match to look forward every f***in week.
they have teams because of the necessity to prepare for proleague and the best players of each team are picked to play one match weekly. thats COMPETITION at its finest , and it never ends weekly this players go through inhouse rankings to get picked for the lineup for the next match, rinse and repeat.
WCS its not a bad thing OFC, its something to look forward for foreigners and it will make easier to get a living out of SC for some ppl that was fighting the good fight before, the highest top of the class skill level will come ONLY from proleague or something akin to it in NA and EU if it ever happens.
Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up.
It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people.
That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise.
On July 04 2013 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote: The whole thing becomes even more convoluted when tournaments that ARE region locked occur like Shoutcraft America and people complain that the quality of matches is poor.
It's like what? The same people that argue that Koreans should be omitted from competing then turn around and complain that an all foreigner tournament isn't fun to watch?
What it comes down to is that people want to watch Foreigners beat Koreans but they don't like watching them lose to Koreans, so we get mixed reactions that are fickle in nature to begin with. That's my observation anyway, but I agree with your overall statement.
Having Koreans compete isn't something fundamentally unfair, the best foreigners will still compete.
In most cases maybe, but I personally love watching foreigners get crushed by Koreans...
On July 04 2013 07:31 Zackeva wrote: It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people.
That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise.
It's supported by hard data. There's no need to treat the issue with kid gloves. Foreigners are, in virtually every case, vastly inferior to their Korean brethren. This isn't a racist viewpoint, or being needlessly pejorative. It's a measurable phenomenon demonstrated in virtually any competitive tournament of value.
"We are all individuals" -- certainly. And the most talented individuals at SC2 reside in Korea.
On July 04 2013 07:00 IntoTheheart wrote: I think that HuK once mentioned that he didn't have "slaves that [he] could get to play all of these games with [him]."
So I guess to deal with the question, BW in Korea (and I'm assuming that their infrastructure didn't change for SC2) had proteams with practice partners they could go to and get their BOs, their mechanics, and even specific things polished properly as well as other high-level players to play with. Most foreigners can't just call someone up and practice 10 hours straight on a specific map or set of conditions and as such would make the difference pretty profound.
I think foreigners below him would love to be his practice slaves.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
On July 04 2013 07:30 PressItDown wrote: I conclude that scooby doo is the fault at hand!
Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up.
A lot of korean players faced resistance from their parents. Also, Asian parents would rather see their children completing uni and getting a job with standard working hours. Parents act this way because everyone is brought up with this mentality instilled.
Top players do get quite a bit of money and fame from the community. But, in the eyes of non esport fans, playing games for a living is nowhere a positive thing in Asia. What you've said is quite far away from the truth.
Attributing the gap between koreans and foreigners to infrastructure, team houses, etc is like blaming external factors. Like when someone does better than you at an exam and you say its because they didnt have noisy neighbours.
In reply to the OP, what people object to is that the top 16 of a big tournament like WCS America can end up with 12 Koreans. Koreans still win almost all of the tournaments and the foreigner victories you point out are the exception, not the rule.
I will agree that Korean dominance is exaggerated severely because they're lumped as a group. Foreigners can't compete with the likes of Innovation or Soulkey, but neither can Koreans. It would be like saying "Swiss men have dominated tennis for the last decade". You're not talking about "Swiss men", just Federer. He is not representative of the average Swiss player.
And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote: And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
Keep in mind that he used to play for a Kespa team, that being Air Force ACE.
On July 04 2013 06:51 Postman wrote: The rest of the world can't compete because there isn't as much high level competition forcing constant improvements, nor are there many players training 70 hours a week like the dedicated Koreans do. Anyone who gets the chance to train with the best has a shot at becoming the best, but only Koreans get to train with the best.
Perfect explanation in this post. It's just that simple.
I think the Koreans are just two or three years more "advanced" than the foreigners. It's like comparing Picard's Enterprise with Kirk's. Picard's has the better technology.
Imagine if a distortion in the space-time continuum transported some mid-GM foreigner back to the days before they had a concept of "timing attack" or "build order". I'm guessing he would win every tournament, though unfortunately I don't have a wormhole to test it.
I once read something about the speed of evolution, and roughly speaking the gist was that the harsher the environment, the faster evolution works. That's why the Krogan are such tough badasses: because they evolved on Tuchanka, a planet that's only barely capable of supporting life. (Sorry to change sci-fi franchise, but it's impossible to resist referencing the Krogan. Fuck the Salarians and their genophage.)
On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote: And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
Keep in mind that he used to play for a Kespa team, that being Air Force ACE.
EDIT: He also played two years for Samsung Khan.
But looking at his fan club, nobody even noticed he was in the tournament until he got through his group. His fan club's post count doubled in size that weekend. TL's analysis in the preview:
(P)mYi.StarDust: Beatable Stardust is another Korean who is playing out of Europe, and he is now presumably the best player in Switzerland. However his record since his arrival isn't particularly hot, as he was eliminated from the HSC 7 Europe qualifiers by Bunny. While Stardust may end up like ForGG or Daisy eventually, right now he's looking more like a Real.
On July 04 2013 08:22 GorbadTheGreat wrote: I think the Koreans are just two or three years more "advanced" than the foreigners. It's like comparing Picard's Enterprise with Kirk's. Picard's has the better technology.
Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
On July 04 2013 08:33 coverpunch wrote: Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
Well, much of the technology is inherited from Brood War.
My hypothesis : we are all a bunch of slackers, and they are good at what they do because they dedicate them fully to a single goal. No bullshit - just practice. Over time pro-korean teams develop methods to become even more efficient, but at the core lies the fact that they simply dont give in to the temptation of 'free-time'. So while creating pro-teams outside korea will help foreigners get the right practice, you also have to simply have the willpower to dedicate all your time to this single goal to even think of having a shot at the top.
Occasionally a foreigner manages to beat a korean because either they trained very hard that allowed them to become equal, or the korean has started slacking off on his practice and that has closed the gap. The latter thing will happen less as long as the korean in question is on a team that offers them a salary or forces them to stick to their rigorous training schedule, however it is still possible for him to get beaten by a foreigner that has worked hard as well (or came up with a very original build - but these will be exceptions).
On July 04 2013 08:33 coverpunch wrote: Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
Well, much of the technology is inherited from Brood War.
in lol and dota asians rip foreigners to shreads to.And lol did not have a succesfull precursor in korea
On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote: The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
damn you Scooby Doo
The Koreans would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Sidenote: I would like to hear you say that to Artosis.
On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote: And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
This isn't true at all? And even if it were, his problem wasn't that he was korean, it was that he:
1. Beat a fan favorite in Jaedong (also a korean) 2. Got an "easier" bracket than he should have, since Life lost to Sjow 3. Plays protoss (which has always been perceived as an easier race, requiring less skill blahblahblah, by a large part of the audience) 4. Used a lot of timing attacks, which the same part of this aforementioned audience has problems against).
On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote: The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
Foreigners are generally not as good as koreans at starcraft because there isnt the same supportive atmosphere in most western countries that exists in Korea to nuture the talent through the team houses. Starcraft is still seen more as a competitive hobby in western nations whilst in korea there would be a lot more people who view it as a legitimate profession and something worthwhile pursuing.
Naturally as the esports scene grows in America, Europe, etc more kids will get into and keep playing RTS games like starcraft and eventually we could end up with a more supportive atmosphere for pro-gamers, but until that happens - the available talent pool of players in korea will always vastly out-number that of foreigners and aside from the occasional out-liers will generally always produce superior players at the top end.
Of course the existence of teamhouses definitely help koreans to improve at a more efficient rate than foreigners. But there's also a mentality factor. Koreans put in more effort than most foreigners do and thats what makes the most difference.
foreign countries have less good practice partners, because it has less players compared to Korea, even though SC2 is not the most played esport in Korea, I assume its still bigger (in terms of non casual players) than other countries.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
Not everybody think it's unfair for non-koreans. I for one think that the best should compete at the highest level and that nationality should be totally disregarded. If turn out to be all korean, it changes nothing for me. WCS NA would be a pretty boring tournament if it was actually just North Americans.
Not that I don't love to see foreigners tear through koreans in some tournament... I would hate to see bad foreigners get free WCS finals spots and get demolished. If a foreigner rises, it's awesome, but if not well too bad.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
On July 04 2013 08:50 theking1 wrote: in lol and dota asians rip foreigners to shreads to.And lol did not have a succesfull precursor in korea
The technology includes such things as infrastructure, strategy, culture and mindset.
In many computer games you research military doctrines with scientists, like in Civilization when you get Chivalry, Nationalism, etc.
The same is true in e-sports generally. "Civil Service" doesn't count as technology, right? Wrong. God help the foreigners when it gets researched and out pop the Korean Macemen.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
On July 04 2013 08:57 tsango wrote: Foreigners are generally not as good as koreans at starcraft because there isnt the same supportive atmosphere in most western countries that exists in Korea to nuture the talent through the team houses. Starcraft is still seen more as a competitive hobby in western nations whilst in korea there would be a lot more people who view it as a legitimate profession and something worthwhile pursuing.
Naturally as the esports scene grows in America, Europe, etc more kids will get into and keep playing RTS games like starcraft and eventually we could end up with a more supportive atmosphere for pro-gamers, but until that happens - the available talent pool of players in korea will always vastly out-number that of foreigners and aside from the occasional out-liers will generally always produce superior players at the top end.
Nah, it's thematic among Korean pro-gamers that their parents are NOT happy with their decision to go into gaming. Foreigner parents may be able to do more about it, however, since Korean kids might play more in PC bangs while everyone else plays more at home.
I think it's more of legacy issue. Korean pro-gamers go on to coach other players and try to find and develop talents in newcomers. It doesn't seem like that happens as often with foreigners. The most prominent StarCraft gamers who have stopped playing have tended to become personalities and casters rather than coaches. It's a shame that someone like Stephano will simply quit and leave the community altogether for his own career. It's fine for him as an individual, but he could probably be a great asset as a coach, helping younger players approach the game like he did. Same goes for Idra, who is independent but seemingly uninterested in helping to develop young foreigners.
koreans dont have an unfair advantage. they are just better. why? because they train better. can foreigners beat koreans? yes. why dont they? because koreans train better. can we make up excuses why koreans are better to make ourselves feel better? i am sure you can draft a list based on the responses to OP.
we arent good enough to earn money to sustain us in order to become as good as koreans. More tournaments that koreans can play in doesn't help at all, in fact it lets them get further ahead of us.
It's not an invisible handicap, foreigners just don't work hard enough and don't practice as much. Only a handful of foreigners put in enough time to really compete with the best Koreans and even those handful of foreigners have to deal with nerves and a long history of Korean dominance whenever they play a Korean.
from what I see, the more hardworking foreigners do beat koreans or do good consistently, maybe with the exception of stephano. koreans train harder and just tend to have much better fundermentals such as mouse accuracy.
I keep seeing this question pop up and hundreds of polemicists jump in to give their own answers. A lot of it seems just made up from vague impressions. This kind of makes sense to me because first coming into eSports watching GSL I had the impression that everyone was paid bucketloads because "They're on TV!" and quite a few other silly ideas. So onto answering this thread:
No-one knows how hard foreign players play. No-one really knows if there is a different mentality or anything like this. It's all conjecture and you can argue forever in circles about it.
There is one thing that is purely objective that we can look at to make OBVIOUS this "invisible" handicap.
MONEY
There is more money for SC2 in Korea. This is undisputable fact. The key reason is:
- Over 100 sc2 pros living in teamhouses with all their costs covered --> This is a HUGE cost
That's it. They have their living costs covered. Even though there are more small Several thousand dollar tournaments here and there for foreigners which Koreans don't get, you can't possibly compare that to the massive cost of housing and feeding 100+ people.
An issue with eSports has always been that there is a lot of bullshit, scamming and lying to try and inflate people's worth and gain sponsorship or artificially grow the scene. This means that a lot of people new to the scene hear about foreign progamers and that they are "paid a salary", and that Koreans all want to join EG because "foreign teams have more money". People then assume this means foreign progamers receive more support then Korean progamers. I think this is probably accurate, but only for the top ~30 foreigners. A lot of the time these progamers also don't have a teamhouse so despite getting paid MORE, when you factor in living costs the difference is not always so huge.
Some more points:
Many teams refer to their players "salary" and yet deduct travel costs from this so it is artificially inflated Salaries are often between the $1200-2000/year mark. That's right as little as $100/month. Many pro players receive no salary and only travel support IF their team has faith they will do well.
So when you hear the words "progamer" don't just assume they are one of the select few foreign players who earn enough to pay rent and feed themselves. Many are hoping they can make a breakout performance, because despite having worked really hard for a long time and getting good at the game, being good will get you zero support in the foreign scene. There will always be a large window of time where the player needs to work the balancing act of devoting themselves to improving whilst working part-time to pay rent, or whilst being in conflict with their family who see no money coming in from the players huge amount of time put in, and hence heavily criticise playing the game.
On the other hand you have a very healthy, sporting community in Korea where young players, whilst still needing to devote a lot of time and effort with no support to get "good", are often picked up based on dedication and improvement, not just suddenly doing well at an MLG. These players instantly get a roof over their head and are allowed to focus just on the game in a house full of like-minded players, all working to the same goal. In this environment they excel. Foreign players who have shown the same improvement and dedication are often offered $100/month salary (or none) and one flight across the country to an event a year. Their team environment introduces them to practice partners, but everything is still done online and it doesn't come close to sitting side-by-side and talking about and practicing the game all day. This isn't saying the foreign scene is horrible and bad. It's just not really professional yet, until you reach that tip-top level of 30 or 50 players that are can afford their rent based on playing the game. Even there at the top, you don't get that amazing environment to live in, and so it's very hard for the foreign scene to ever have as many good players as Korea.
I hope this clears up some of the misinformation going around about the differences between the scenes, and gives a decent answer to the question in the thread. I'd say I'm qualified to answer it as a result of playing as a professional gamer, and part-time coach, for the last 2 years, supporting myself entirely through the game. In that time I've lived with the Prime team in Korea for 1 month and traveled a lot talking to a lot of other "progamers" so I know what many peoples situations are and have been shocked myself when learning how little even quite famous streamers and players are sometimes paid. It's growing, very fast, but don't get fooled by the word "progamer" guys, it just means you're pretty good at this game, not raking in the cash.
I forgot who but one progamer said that they preferred following Korean broadcasts because they're actually good and the broadcasters talk a lot about stuff that some of the progamers even don't know or think about. The saturation of Starcraft is really high for Koreans, and their entire community has a huge following of really dedicated fans and ex-players since Brood War so you can imagine that the quality of work they put out is much better, not to mention more professional than say, Day9 casting or his dailies. You can see how analytic and how much thought process Day9 puts in his dailies or casting gameplay, but imagine that amplified by progamers playing at highest level for 6-7 years, and fans following that highest level for the same amount of time. There's big knowledge and saturation difference. Either we invent a new way to compete with that existing knowledge either by being more creative, faster, micro better, or you adopt their strategy, move to Korea and try to saturate yourself with all the knowledge they have gathered, which is much more than the foreigner scene has.
On July 04 2013 10:29 ETisME wrote: from what I see, the more hardworking foreigners do beat koreans or do good consistently, maybe with the exception of stephano. koreans train harder and just tend to have much better fundermentals such as mouse accuracy.
By "consistently" it's once every tournament and still having zero shot at winning. If there were that many tournaments and a lil bit more volatility in BW, the same feat could easily be achieved Conclusion: the inferiority complex is valid
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
You're delusional. There are like twenty premier tournaments a year and you choose to pick a couple bo3 that support your argument.
MLG Spring Championship - Polt Homestory Cup - Taeja Dreamhack Open Summer - StarDust WCS Season 1 Final - INnoVation WCS Europe - MVP WCS Season 1 America - Hero Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Leenock MLG Winter Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Championship -YoDa IEM Season 7 Katowice - First Homestory Cup 6- Snute WCG 2012 - PartinG IGN ProLeague Season 5 - Leenock Iron Squid II - Life 2012 Dreamhack Open - Winter - HerO IEM Season 7 Singapore - Sting 2012 Battle.net World Championship - PartinG 2012 MLG Fall Championship - Life Electronic Sports World Cup 2012 - MaNa 2012 Dreamhack Budapest - Nerchio (against Rain, StC, Sage only) Dreamhack Open Valencia - Taeja NASL Season 4 - HerO 2012 MLG Summer Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Cologne - MVP ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - Taeja TSL 4 - Creator 2012 MLG Summer Arena - Taeja Homestory Cup V - Nerchio 2012 Dreamhack Open Summer - MaNa 2012 MLG Spring Championship - DRG 2012 Spring Arena 2 - viOLet 2012 Dreamhack Stockholm - Thorzain NASL Season 3 - Stephano IGN ProLeague Season 4 - aLive 2012 MLG Winter Championship - MKP IEM Season 6 World - MC Iron Squid 1 - MMA 2012 MLG Spring Arena - MarineKing ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - Polt IEM Season 6 Sao Paulo - viOLet IEM Season 6 Kiev - MMA Homestory Cup 4 - MC
Won by foreigners: ECG World Cup (?), Homestory Cup 5 and 6, Dreamhack Bucharest, Dreamhack Open Summer, Dreamhack Stockholm, NASL Season 3
There hasn't been a single premier tournament win for a foreigner in HotS, or even 2013.
So yes, Naniwa beat Jaedong's legendarily bad ZvP and beat Dear in a PvP. Sjow took a bo3 off Life after Life has played like 25-30 sets against foreigners without losing. MC has unfortunately been performing poorly. Definitely signs of foreigners not being dominated, right?
Koreans have better infrastructure and the discipline to stick to training regimes. Foreigners feel entitled to leisure time and 'having a life' whilst SC2 is literally all the top Korean progamers do outside of sleep, eating and a little exercise.
Another factor is that the korean diet is substantially healthier than what most foreigners would be consuming on a regular basis. It's hard enough training 10 hours a day, let alone without good nutrition.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2.
Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2.
Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish.
It is really that simple.
I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true.
Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2.
Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish.
It is really that simple.
you mean african americans dominate basketball. white people are like foreigners in basketball sorry to say man.
infrastructure is a big part of it, but so its culture. genetics has almost nothing to do with it. diet has some, but not that much.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
nah you're wrong check aligulac top 40, how many foreigner (1). check top 100, how many (maybe 10). aligulac is essentially doing something very similar to ELO rating system, except using tournie wins against players to perform statistical inference on skill, as far as i'm concerned it should be the most accurate mathematical representation of skill (although i'd be interested in seeing how much of a change to lognormal distribution vs normal distribution would change things.
tournament placings aren't necessarily indicative of skill. how can you be delusional, every pro gamer if they had zero latency to kr server, WOULD be playing on the KR server, there is much more competition there. take the top 200 of each region and put them in a ladder and look at the %'s. yes there would be foreigners, but the % would be small,
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2.
Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish.
It is really that simple.
I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true.
Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
I'm sorry but that's straight up bullshit. The entire concept of distinct "races" of people is an antiquated concept handed down from the 19th century. You are just as likely to have similar genetics to someone in Africa as you do to the white person across the street who is supposedly part of your "race".
Yes some people are born with more talent at some things than others. Although talent is very hard to measure and the more it is studied the more it seems to be explained by things such as environment, upbringing, training, etc. I think it really is as simple as he said. Koreans have an infrastructure that allows them to play more games against harder competition in a more intensive and supportive environment. If American or Swedish or Canadian players started learning Korean and training in Korea with the same dedication as Korean pros they could become just as good. Genes have nothing to do with that.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2.
Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish.
It is really that simple.
I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true.
Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games.
black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC.
ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE
On July 04 2013 07:31 Zackeva wrote: It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people.
That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise.
I do wonder if thats a small percentage of it. We get treated like aliens who are "renting" the gamespace from the Koreans for a day. We need to take the word back, if USA players play in a USA tournament lets start allowing them to be called natives and maybe that will give them some home field advantage juju.
Right now the foreigner moniker always makes us the away team and we can never feel comfortable even in our own house, if you will.
Korea had the infrastructure for teamhouse training environments, a culture where being a progamer is a respectable career path and not an oddity, and the smallness of the country. American players can't compete in a live setting every week for a teamleague because America is a much bigger country
Overall, it's pointless to debate about whether Koreans are better than foreigners because of some racial component. If you want to find the answer to this, dedicate the rest of your life toward research (you still probably won't reach a conclusion). There is, however, evidence to support thinking you're inferior to one group will make it so.
In summary, debating is pointless, so foreigners should adapt Korean-sounding IDs to remove the connotation that foreigners are inferior.
On July 04 2013 14:04 SidianTheBard wrote: Polt goes to school full time and isn't on some amazing esf or kespa team yet he still dominates. Maybe he just uses his practice time efficiently.
It has everything to do with personal motivation, practice, and the system. Polt can do what he does because he is skilled, he knows exactly how to prepare, he knows how to maximize his time, and, most importantly, he is smart. There is no huge difference between a korean kid and any foreigner kid, the difference is in the system. If America put government money into video games, it could produce talent just as great as korea, but that is what is lacking, money. Korea has the money, government money, tournaments, infrastructure, and most importantly a place among the people. While we have barcrafts in the U.S. and abroad, I would be hardpressed to find a place in America that would be good to have a teamhouse and have enough people to watch near daily lan games; LA or NY come to mind, but really those places are overcrowded and have a LOT of issues when it comes to transportation and living costs. IMO the biggest issue is the infrastructure, and to build that, foreigners would need SERIOUS money, like government amounts of money.
Certainly a large part is to do with the training methods that the Koreans employ. However, I think we would be ignorant if we also didn't acknowledge the possibility of some kind of genetic advantage here (political correctness aside). It is well known that Koreans have one the highest IQs in the world.
Thus, I would hypothesize that it is three main factors that make Korean players the best:
1. Training Methods 2. High IQ (2nd highest in the world) 3. Culture - Working hard is ingrained in Korean culture, Also, sports aren't that popular due to lack of space, but PC Rooms are everywhere
lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games.
black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC.
ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE
Edit - Thought I'd throw in some propaganda for good measure:
There are over 150 professional players and coaches in Korea training full time in team houses with 8-16 fellow professionals. Many of whom have 5+ years of professional RTS experience. Plus another 20 or so professional players in Taiwan.
I think there's a maximum of maybe 20 non-Korean, non-Taiwanese professional players in the entire world who can truly claim to be playing Starcraft full-time without being heavily dependent upon coaching or streaming revenue. And even then, those foreigners are divided by ladders, language barriers, are required to travel more often, produce content more often, and have an inferior training environment. I think the EG lair had maybe 6 SC2 players training in it full time long term at its peak, with usually only 3-4 players training there at a time.
Its 14 Korean team houses vs 1 foreigner team house at half capacity. With those numbers its no surprise that Koreans win everything.
Overall, it's pointless to debate about whether Koreans are better than foreigners because of some racial component. If you want to find the answer to this, dedicate the rest of your life toward research (you still probably won't reach a conclusion). There is, however, evidence to support thinking you're inferior to one group will make it so.
In summary, debating is pointless, so foreigners should adapt Korean-sounding IDs to remove the connotation that foreigners are inferior.
It's certainly possible. If some races have advantages in certain athletic abilities, there is no reason to not believe that some races might have advantages in certain cognitive abilitites, or faster hands.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation,infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and go on a wild goose chase and say that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. Also North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
On July 04 2013 14:22 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Certainly a large part is to do with the training methods that the Koreans employ. However, I think we would be ignorant if we also didn't acknowledge the possibility of some kind of genetic advantage here (political correctness aside). It is well known that Koreans have one the highest IQs in the world.
Thus, I would hypothesize that it is three main factors that make Korean players the best:
1. Training Methods 2. High IQ (2nd highest in the world) 3. Culture - Working hard is ingrained in Korean culture, Also, sports aren't that popular due to lack of space, but PC Rooms are everywhere
lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games.
black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC.
ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE
Edit - Thought I'd throw in some propaganda for good measure:
"Genes have nothing to do with it"
"Anybody can do anything they set their mind to."
"You can be anything you want to be!" -
koreans don't have IQ any different from any other east asians, and the work ethic is largely a confucian ideal that isn't unique to korea at all, it's pretty similar in all eastern asian countries. the average iq difference between eastern asians and whites is 5, which isn't statistically significant.
IQ also isn't linearly correlated with how well you perform on any given task. this isn't really an effort to be PC, its just like basic stats and common sense.
my original example was a pretty decent one, only african americans are really well represented in pro basketball and football, not black people as a whole lol. african immigrants are actually the highest amongst all immigrant groups for attaining a college degree, and on average whites finish college faster than asian americans despite IQ differences. in fact income level is a much stronger predictor for educational attainment than any other measure currently in the united states.
and while its obvious that a person with an IQ of 100 is highly unlikely to be to be able theoretical physicist, we have examples like feynman, who did not have an exceptionally high IQ. there are many studies that show IQ is not a strong predictor for many things that people as a whole consider 'successful'. IQ isn't even predictive of wealth, although it is predictive of income.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
No need to be obnoxious. You failed at comprehension, called me uneducated and then linked a commonly known theory from wikipedia -.- Did I discount infrastructure? No and neither did the original post. I just said genetics might be a minor factor, which they could well be. You're the one discounting theories. Saying infrastructure "fully" explains Korean domination is more unreasonable than anything I said.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
australians are unusually dominant in sports for olympics, it has nothing to do with 'aussies are genetically more endowed with better athletic genes'. give me a fuckin break, it was a british penal colony.
We can sit here and talk skill all day long. But coming from the FGC(Fighting Game Community) I am familiar with Koreans and Japanese domination. US players managed to eventually get over this struggle as they become more familiar with Korean and Japanese players. But the biggest factor of this was/is confidence.
SC2 players are overly well mannered; to a fault. Skill is important sure, but even more important is mental fortitude. Foreigners aren't as I would say cold blooded. Ice in their veins.
Only one foreigners has mentally stood out above all. And that would be of course Stephano. He isn't consumed by the pressure of the stage when challenging Koreans. He's the most mentally fortified foreigner I have observed.
Very rare have I actually watched a game where a foreigner lost to a Korean because he got outplayed. Usually, it's obvious why they lose. And it has less to do with skill, but straight up choking.
Too many mental mistakes. Desperate all in tactics and the like. Foreigners need to stop placing Koreans on this pedestal. And start acting like professional gamers. If you want to win, you give your opponent the respect he deserves in so much as not underestimating them, but your course should be to annihilate them. No mercy.
Coming from the FGC, I would say Foreigners in SC2 when it comes to facing Koreans are soft.
On July 04 2013 15:58 KingAce wrote: The biggest reason foreigners lose to Koreans.
They choke.
We can sit here and talk skill all day long. But coming from the FGC(Fighting Game Community) I am familiar with Koreans and Japanese domination. US players managed to eventually get over this struggle as they become more familiar with Korean and Japanese players. But the biggest factor of this was/is confidence.
SC2 players are overly well mannered; to a fault. Skill is important sure, but even more important is mental fortitude. Foreigners aren't as I would say cold blooded. Ice in their veins.
Only one foreigners has mentally stood out above all. And that would be of course Stephano. He isn't consumed by the pressure of the stage when challenging Koreans. He's the most mentally fortified foreigner I have observed.
Very rare have I actually watched a game where a foreigner lost to a Korean because he got outplayed. Usually, it's obvious why they lose. And it has less to do with skill, but straight up choking.
Too many mental mistakes. Desperate all in tactics and the like. Foreigners need to stop placing Koreans on this pedestal. And start acting like professional gamers.
Coming from the FGC, I would say Foreigners in SC2 when it comes to facing Koreans are soft.
Lol, never seen something so wrong in my life. 5% of the time a foreigner may choke by going full foreigner, but 95% of the time when a korean wins it's because they outplayed the foreigner and are just more skilled than them. I can't believe you actually tried to make an argument that no skill gap exists b/w foreigners and koreans, but foreigners just lose because they choke.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
A team house with a dedicated coach to improve their skills and maid to do the housework.
This communitys way to talk about players as "foreingers" and talking about them as if they are handicapped children is toxic as F'ck for getting new players.
If you read through any post about korean players vs international players, on TL.net, /r/starcraft, B.net Forum, it's gonna sound racist as hell, and some of the posters really are just racist as hell.
EDIT: Btw, we lack a very important thing: Infrastructure. Just in my country alone, Denmark, we have just ONE sc2 team thats worth anything(The one Bunny and Sonder is on).
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
A team house with a dedicated coach to improve their skills and maid to do the housework.
lag free high quality internet to the most competitive ladder, and a whole host of practice partners that can practice and willing to practice specific situations with you over and over. KESPA teams have b-teamers that will literally grind specific builds with you over and over and over again. all of those players are definitely korean grandmaster level+ as well.
NA/foreign players do very little of this, even ones on pro teams, they mostly just ladder and sponsorship (being a pro) is just money for tournaments, maybe a salary, and some gear/free things.
There is no mystery to solve here infrastructure and regime trump all.
Team A in any sport vs Team B will always win if Team A has a proper training structure and Team B doesn't.
Genetics, confidence, lucky charms all have much to do about nothing. People just like to over complicate an issue for the sake of sounding intelligent or as if they've had some miracle insight that isn't already plainly obvious.
i remember the pisa test. Korean pupils were much better in maths than western countries. But this has nothing to do with the size of the brain or genetics. Its just the mindset. If you would ask a korean about maths he/she would tell you"you need to work hard, practise, practise, practise, than you can make it", while western pupils responded "maths is just not my thing, doenst suit me, i can do better in other things".
this applies to starcraft as well. Foreigners simply dont have the mindset and do not train hard enough. Thats why they fail. There are a few exception of course.
I am convinced if foreigns would stop complaining that koreans are better and about the infrastructure etc.. and just start practice, practice, practice, they would get similar results.
Some are willing to sacrifice a lot of time to be gosu1337, some others sacrifice less time. Guess who comes on top. I wonder if Koreans are asking themselves why they're not on par with Europe or South America in football. Exactly the same deal.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
naniwa was training in the very same teamhouse as JD before the tournament
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
As someone else already said - the Koreans themselves can not even compete with the very top. Furthermore Jaedong, Life and Leenock are certainly not mid tier.
On July 04 2013 10:44 PiGStarcraft wrote: I keep seeing this question pop up and hundreds of polemicists jump in to give their own answers. A lot of it seems just made up from vague impressions. This kind of makes sense to me because first coming into eSports watching GSL I had the impression that everyone was paid bucketloads because "They're on TV!" and quite a few other silly ideas. So onto answering this thread:
No-one knows how hard foreign players play. No-one really knows if there is a different mentality or anything like this. It's all conjecture and you can argue forever in circles about it.
There is one thing that is purely objective that we can look at to make OBVIOUS this "invisible" handicap.
MONEY
There is more money for SC2 in Korea. This is undisputable fact. The key reason is:
- Over 100 sc2 pros living in teamhouses with all their costs covered --> This is a HUGE cost
That's it. They have their living costs covered. Even though there are more small Several thousand dollar tournaments here and there for foreigners which Koreans don't get, you can't possibly compare that to the massive cost of housing and feeding 100+ people.
An issue with eSports has always been that there is a lot of bullshit, scamming and lying to try and inflate people's worth and gain sponsorship or artificially grow the scene. This means that a lot of people new to the scene hear about foreign progamers and that they are "paid a salary", and that Koreans all want to join EG because "foreign teams have more money". People then assume this means foreign progamers receive more support then Korean progamers. I think this is probably accurate, but only for the top ~30 foreigners. A lot of the time these progamers also don't have a teamhouse so despite getting paid MORE, when you factor in living costs the difference is not always so huge.
Some more points:
Many teams refer to their players "salary" and yet deduct travel costs from this so it is artificially inflated Salaries are often between the $1200-2000/year mark. That's right as little as $100/month. Many pro players receive no salary and only travel support IF their team has faith they will do well.
So when you hear the words "progamer" don't just assume they are one of the select few foreign players who earn enough to pay rent and feed themselves. Many are hoping they can make a breakout performance, because despite having worked really hard for a long time and getting good at the game, being good will get you zero support in the foreign scene. There will always be a large window of time where the player needs to work the balancing act of devoting themselves to improving whilst working part-time to pay rent, or whilst being in conflict with their family who see no money coming in from the players huge amount of time put in, and hence heavily criticise playing the game.
On the other hand you have a very healthy, sporting community in Korea where young players, whilst still needing to devote a lot of time and effort with no support to get "good", are often picked up based on dedication and improvement, not just suddenly doing well at an MLG. These players instantly get a roof over their head and are allowed to focus just on the game in a house full of like-minded players, all working to the same goal. In this environment they excel. Foreign players who have shown the same improvement and dedication are often offered $100/month salary (or none) and one flight across the country to an event a year. Their team environment introduces them to practice partners, but everything is still done online and it doesn't come close to sitting side-by-side and talking about and practicing the game all day. This isn't saying the foreign scene is horrible and bad. It's just not really professional yet, until you reach that tip-top level of 30 or 50 players that are can afford their rent based on playing the game. Even there at the top, you don't get that amazing environment to live in, and so it's very hard for the foreign scene to ever have as many good players as Korea.
I hope this clears up some of the misinformation going around about the differences between the scenes, and gives a decent answer to the question in the thread. I'd say I'm qualified to answer it as a result of playing as a professional gamer, and part-time coach, for the last 2 years, supporting myself entirely through the game. In that time I've lived with the Prime team in Korea for 1 month and traveled a lot talking to a lot of other "progamers" so I know what many peoples situations are and have been shocked myself when learning how little even quite famous streamers and players are sometimes paid. It's growing, very fast, but don't get fooled by the word "progamer" guys, it just means you're pretty good at this game, not raking in the cash.
quoting, cause you all are arguing about stupidities like genes etc and it seems none of you read a post from the actual progamer, that is doing quite well recently...
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
You're delusional. There are like twenty premier tournaments a year and you choose to pick a couple bo3 that support your argument.
MLG Spring Championship - Polt Homestory Cup - Taeja Dreamhack Open Summer - StarDust WCS Season 1 Final - INnoVation WCS Europe - MVP WCS Season 1 America - Hero Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Leenock MLG Winter Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Championship -YoDa IEM Season 7 Katowice - First Homestory Cup 6- Snute WCG 2012 - PartinG IGN ProLeague Season 5 - Leenock Iron Squid II - Life 2012 Dreamhack Open - Winter - HerO IEM Season 7 Singapore - Sting 2012 Battle.net World Championship - PartinG 2012 MLG Fall Championship - Life Electronic Sports World Cup 2012 - MaNa 2012 Dreamhack Budapest - Nerchio (against Rain, StC, Sage only) Dreamhack Open Valencia - Taeja NASL Season 4 - HerO 2012 MLG Summer Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Cologne - MVP ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - Taeja TSL 4 - Creator 2012 MLG Summer Arena - Taeja Homestory Cup V - Nerchio 2012 Dreamhack Open Summer - MaNa 2012 MLG Spring Championship - DRG 2012 Spring Arena 2 - viOLet 2012 Dreamhack Stockholm - Thorzain NASL Season 3 - Stephano IGN ProLeague Season 4 - aLive 2012 MLG Winter Championship - MKP IEM Season 6 World - MC Iron Squid 1 - MMA 2012 MLG Spring Arena - MarineKing ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - Polt IEM Season 6 Sao Paulo - viOLet IEM Season 6 Kiev - MMA Homestory Cup 4 - MC
Won by foreigners: ECG World Cup (?), Homestory Cup 5 and 6, Dreamhack Bucharest, Dreamhack Open Summer, Dreamhack Stockholm, NASL Season 3
There hasn't been a single premier tournament win for a foreigner in HotS, or even 2013.
So yes, Naniwa beat Jaedong's legendarily bad ZvP and beat Dear in a PvP. Sjow took a bo3 off Life after Life has played like 25-30 sets against foreigners without losing. MC has unfortunately been performing poorly. Definitely signs of foreigners not being dominated, right?
I am not trying to argue against the fact that Koreans are indeed doing far better than foreigners in general. My point is that Foreigners are doing better than Koreans now than they used to. Especially compared to BW.
It's a good thing that we have WCS, because with global finals it is going to be easier to measure the progress of foreigners.
On July 04 2013 07:08 iyasq8 wrote: its in their genes, they cant help it.
bullshit. the thing is asians in general are very committed to what they do. take china for instance. in china children get whatever they want to have as long as they get good grades. i can be wrong but asia has always been about discipline and respect. the cultural difference is the thing. koreans commit hours of practice to sc2 a day while foreigners are more lazy. also a korean mostly has a right mindset. when they lose a laddergame they go on again. while foreigners sometimes take some time to analyze what they did wrong and talk to their viewers etc. things like this makes foreigners more populair but koreans better.
again i can be wrong but this is how i always saw it, foreigners can just be as good as koreans as long as they commit. hell stephano was playing very well until he got into EG. its not the EG curse that hit him. it was probably the money, and he got cocky that with little practice he good still be very good. but HOTS proved him wrong.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
As someone else already said - the Koreans themselves can not even compete with the very top. Furthermore Jaedong, Life and Leenock are certainly not mid tier.
Meaning what? Plenty of Koreans who aren't amongst the very best can still remain competitive with those who are. As I said in my previous post, some foreigners used to be able to compete with the very best Koreans. If your argument to foreigners being better now is Naniwa beating Jaedong in a matchup he's notoriously bad at, Naniwa almost beating Leenock and a slumping Life dropping a couple of series, then come on.
Plus please don't count Jaedong as a "top tier" korean. He had a very long break from korean training style and mates, so he's probably half the man he was (not considering the aging process). But it's still pretty damn creepy, of course.
On July 04 2013 07:30 PressItDown wrote: I conclude that scooby doo is the fault at hand!
Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up.
gaming is big in Korea, its the biggest pro-gaming scene (as compared to other areas/scenes) in the world but even there I don't think that pro-gaming is already considered as being a "legitimate" job. just go check out some interviews/trailers/movies about the daily life of Korean pro-gamers and you'll get an idea that being a pro-gamer in Korean society does not automatically mean acceptance, popularity, or financial security.
Korean gamers still take a risky life decision if they decide to pursue pro-gaming. I think this will be the case for a while until eSports gets to a more stable point. It probably won't happen with these current generation of eSports (LoL, DOTA2, SC2, WoT, etc) but maybe some day...
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
No need to be obnoxious... Did I discount infrastructure? No and neither did the original post. I just said genetics might be a minor factor, which they could well be.
My obnoxious response to your argument is because your argument is founded in racism. It is an ignorant and very dangerous thing to do. And frankly I am disgusted. Your guessing genes "might be a minor factor..."
Why are we searching for minor factors when we have something that fully explains the difference in performance?
Occam's razor is applicable here because we have a reasonable and rational explanation, infrastructure, that has been shown over and over to effect performance in all sorts of competition. China has the best diving infrastructure in the world, and thus the Chinese dominate diving in the Olympics. The United States has the best basketball infrastructure in the world, the thus the United States dominates basketball. Russia has the best infrastructure for chess (the Soviet Union used to subsidize people for play), and thus they dominate chess.
That's right Russia a nation with a "lower IQ" dominates a game that is all about thinking! Why don't the Koreans dominate?
That is because the first IQ tests were meant to determine whether or not someone is mentally retarded or has a general learning disability. They were never designed to compare the intelligence of two normal individuals. The first IQ test came with an explicit warning on it regarding this. Yet it hasn't stopped people or nations from trying to one up each other or come up with some kind of test to determine intelligence. Yet these tests are all flawed, and there is a strong correlations between performance on IQ tests and malnutrition, education, literacy, life expectancy, inequality and poverty. These issues fully explain why some "races" do better than others on IQ tests. To search for some genetic or inherent factor is to ignore the obvious: if you are poor, undernourished, and have no education you're going to score worse than someone who is wealthy, is nourished and well educated. So nations with high rates of poverty and hunger and poor education systems are going to score worse. Data from across the United States also shows this, when people compare IQ by state. It has nothing to do with genes. Remember that pigs share 98% of the genes humans have. Humans and apes are 99.4% the same genetically.
What Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen has done is dangerous, especially with their abject lack of data.
The foreign tournaments have koreans and get dominated by them or they don't have koreans and the level of play is crap if you are used to watching WCS korea, PL etc. The foreigners just don't train as well as the koreans plus they don't have the proper RTS background. Infrastructure, mentality, concentration of good players, regular broadcasted games etc. all make Korea a much better training ground for talent.
It seems like a lot of people are agreeing that the undeniable advantage the Koreans have is the environment with the pro-scene, team houses, and just the abundance of good players/practice partners. So given the same opportunity to play with high level competition, wouldn't the foreigners be able to get better as well? If what the audiences want is for foreigners to be able to play on par as Koreans, then this WCS regional format that allows Koreans to participate in NA or EU the first step to closing the gap. Anyways, personally I am enjoying most of the games, regardless of nationality.
there is a stog with artosis and catz and others that talked about this cant remember but i bet someone here has said it already or can help you find it. it was one of the last ones with artosis
Foreigners should stop worrying about an "invisible handicap" and just get over it. It is what it is, we don't need any new regulations to force change.
Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown.
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that.
Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose.
It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches.
There should be NO region locks on any tournaments. Only the very best players should be rewarded for their results. Fabricating tournaments for selfish reasons will only cause arguements, and will only hurt you at the end of the day.
On July 05 2013 17:15 Xercen wrote: Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown.
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that.
so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.
if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy
Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose.
It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches.
first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture"
to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
On July 05 2013 17:15 Xercen wrote: Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown.
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that.
so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.
if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy
Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose.
It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches.
first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture"
to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?
I said the opposite. I don't think it's cultural. Of course all my points are assumptions since i don't have any concrete data that shows with any degree of certainty why koreans are doing better than americans and europeans on the whole. Nobody as far as i know has that data. It's just assumptions vs assumptions.
1) it's not genetics because naniwa is not korean and he has shown good results in previous gsl and at recent dreamhacks. Of course this is only one example but most people are unlikely to suggest that koreans are better genetically than other humans for obvious reasons.
2) It's not culture because polt is a one man team and he won dreamhack in a field that contained a lot of great players including korean kespa trained players who have been trained in a better environment than him. Of course that again is only 1 example but korea doesn't really have a huge sc2 culture. It has gsl and that's it. America/europe has a lot more tournaments so you can argue that america/europe has a bigger sc2 culture than korea. I mean the biggest sc2 website is teamliquid which is american.
I don't understand what u r saying about committment. Americans/europeans don't want to fully commit to sc2 because the risks outweigh the rewards. Simple as that.
You said, "foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit."
"to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?"
I believe the reason koreans are more determined is because they are poorer than the us and eu on an individual basis. They don't have anything to fall back on so that's they really put everything in. Americans have cheap food. Cheap petrol. Cheap rent. Koreans generally don't have that. I don't think being poor is a culture. Maybe that is what drives the korean ambition. The ambition to do well because they are poorer than americans. Maybe a cultural factor could be family. Koreans generally have a stronger family unit than americans, so their desire to help their parents etc could be incredibly strong. But that might be cultural and also it might be just because they are poor. How can we separate the two?
I have no idea. but if you can give me concrete statistics and irrefutable proof of culture being the reason why koreans are doing better then i'll be more than happy to read it.
I mean people can list down perceived cultural influences that apparantly make koreans great such as
1) family unit 2) hardworking people 3) teamhouses and coaches
but americans also have teamhouses and coaches. I believe americans work much longer hours than europeans do and have much shorter holidays. so they are hardworking.
family unit? depends on the family. Can't say every korean family is a strong unit.
I mean i look at EG and TL and their entire roster is korean born except for snute. Now. How come you can't get a team full of foreigners who are living and training in korea for a few years?
I heard EG and i assume TL pays great salaries so surely setting up a foreigner team in the proleague with non korean players can't be so difficult?
But how come only snute has gone to korea and no other foreigners? like demuslim etc?
if you are truly committed to being the best then you need to live in korea no questions asked.
yes it's a huge step but naniwa did it and he is by far the best foreigner atm with stephano.
I do apologise for my writing guys. Now that i think about it there could be cultural reasons and other reasons i.e being poor that could be a factor but who determines which factor is the most prominent? i wish we had stats but nobody has any stats only assumptions
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
How do you feel someone asked you a question, and when/after you answer he simply walks away?
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
On July 05 2013 17:15 Xercen wrote: Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown.
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that.
so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.
if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy
Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose.
It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches.
first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture"
to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?
I said the opposite. I don't think it's cultural. Of course all my points are assumptions since i don't have any concrete data that shows with any degree of certainty why koreans are doing better than americans and europeans on the whole. Nobody as far as i know has that data. It's just assumptions vs assumptions.
1) it's not genetics because naniwa is not korean and he has shown good results in previous gsl and at recent dreamhacks. Of course this is only one example but most people are unlikely to suggest that koreans are better genetically than other humans for obvious reasons.
2) It's not culture because polt is a one man team and he won dreamhack in a field that contained a lot of great players including korean kespa trained players who have been trained in a better environment than him. Of course that again is only 1 example but korea doesn't really have a huge sc2 culture. It has gsl and that's it. America/europe has a lot more tournaments so you can argue that america/europe has a bigger sc2 culture than korea. I mean the biggest sc2 website is teamliquid which is american.
I don't understand what u r saying about committment. Americans/europeans don't want to fully commit to sc2 because the risks outweigh the rewards. Simple as that.
You said, "foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit."
"to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?"
I believe the reason koreans are more determined is because they are poorer than the us and eu on an individual basis. They don't have anything to fall back on so that's they really put everything in. Americans have cheap food. Cheap petrol. Cheap rent. Koreans generally don't have that. I don't think being poor is a culture. Maybe that is what drives the korean ambition. The ambition to do well because they are poorer than americans. Maybe a cultural factor could be family. Koreans generally have a stronger family unit than americans, so their desire to help their parents etc could be incredibly strong. But that might be cultural and also it might be just because they are poor. How can we separate the two?
I have no idea. but if you can give me concrete statistics and irrefutable proof of culture being the reason why koreans are doing better then i'll be more than happy to read it.
I mean people can list down perceived cultural influences that apparantly make koreans great such as
1) family unit 2) hardworking people 3) teamhouses and coaches
but americans also have teamhouses and coaches. I believe americans work much longer hours than europeans do and have much shorter holidays. so they are hardworking.
family unit? depends on the family. Can't say every korean family is a strong unit.
I mean i look at EG and TL and their entire roster is korean born except for snute. Now. How come you can't get a team full of foreigners who are living and training in korea for a few years?
I heard EG and i assume TL pays great salaries so surely setting up a foreigner team in the proleague with non korean players can't be so difficult?
But how come only snute has gone to korea and no other foreigners? like demuslim etc?
if you are truly committed to being the best then you need to live in korea no questions asked.
yes it's a huge step but naniwa did it and he is by far the best foreigner atm with stephano.
I do apologise for my writing guys. Now that i think about it there could be cultural reasons and other reasons i.e being poor that could be a factor but who determines which factor is the most prominent? i wish we had stats but nobody has any stats only assumptions
Polt was trained in Korea in teamhouses before he came to the U.S. He has fundamentals that he already learned in Korea. And without a professional coach, I don't know if we will see the same result from Polt in tournaments like GSL where a lot of effort goes into reading opponents. Analyzing opponent's vods must take serious time and effort!
On July 05 2013 17:15 Xercen wrote: Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown.
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that.
so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.
if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy
Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose.
It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches.
first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture"
to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?
I said the opposite. I don't think it's cultural. Of course all my points are assumptions since i don't have any concrete data that shows with any degree of certainty why koreans are doing better than americans and europeans on the whole. Nobody as far as i know has that data. It's just assumptions vs assumptions.
1) it's not genetics because naniwa is not korean and he has shown good results in previous gsl and at recent dreamhacks. Of course this is only one example but most people are unlikely to suggest that koreans are better genetically than other humans for obvious reasons.
2) It's not culture because polt is a one man team and he won dreamhack in a field that contained a lot of great players including korean kespa trained players who have been trained in a better environment than him. Of course that again is only 1 example but korea doesn't really have a huge sc2 culture. It has gsl and that's it. America/europe has a lot more tournaments so you can argue that america/europe has a bigger sc2 culture than korea. I mean the biggest sc2 website is teamliquid which is american.
I don't understand what u r saying about committment. Americans/europeans don't want to fully commit to sc2 because the risks outweigh the rewards. Simple as that.
You said, "foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit."
"to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?"
I believe the reason koreans are more determined is because they are poorer than the us and eu on an individual basis. They don't have anything to fall back on so that's they really put everything in. Americans have cheap food. Cheap petrol. Cheap rent. Koreans generally don't have that. I don't think being poor is a culture. Maybe that is what drives the korean ambition. The ambition to do well because they are poorer than americans. Maybe a cultural factor could be family. Koreans generally have a stronger family unit than americans, so their desire to help their parents etc could be incredibly strong. But that might be cultural and also it might be just because they are poor. How can we separate the two?
I have no idea. but if you can give me concrete statistics and irrefutable proof of culture being the reason why koreans are doing better then i'll be more than happy to read it.
I mean people can list down perceived cultural influences that apparantly make koreans great such as
1) family unit 2) hardworking people 3) teamhouses and coaches
but americans also have teamhouses and coaches. I believe americans work much longer hours than europeans do and have much shorter holidays. so they are hardworking.
family unit? depends on the family. Can't say every korean family is a strong unit.
I mean i look at EG and TL and their entire roster is korean born except for snute. Now. How come you can't get a team full of foreigners who are living and training in korea for a few years?
I heard EG and i assume TL pays great salaries so surely setting up a foreigner team in the proleague with non korean players can't be so difficult?
But how come only snute has gone to korea and no other foreigners? like demuslim etc?
if you are truly committed to being the best then you need to live in korea no questions asked.
yes it's a huge step but naniwa did it and he is by far the best foreigner atm with stephano.
I do apologise for my writing guys. Now that i think about it there could be cultural reasons and other reasons i.e being poor that could be a factor but who determines which factor is the most prominent? i wish we had stats but nobody has any stats only assumptions
Polt was trained in Korea in teamhouses before he came to the U.S. He has fundamentals that he already learned in Korea. And without a professional coach, I don't know if we will see the same result from Polt in tournaments like GSL where a lot of effort goes into reading opponents. Analyzing opponent's vods must take serious time and effort!
I knew somebody would bring up the question of Polt being trained in korea.
Yes that's right. But Stephano because famous by beating koreans and he didn't start by training in Korea. Stephano is well known for his creativity/impulsive play (12 min roach) and his attention to detail as well as having strong commitment to the game (until recently). Back then his goal was to make as much money as he could. He achieved that goal. But Stephano doesn't have the goal of being the best that flash and innovation have which is why he isn't performing as well as he should (i.e he doesn't practice zvz as much as he should as he so often admitted)
The reason why Stephano and Naniwa are the most famous foreigner players (and the most successful) is because they are creative and have their own build orders/style that you cannot teach.
Yes koreans might have teamhouses and coaches to provide inspiration and creativity/build orders to players but certain players are self-coaching players such as Stephano/Naniwa.
That's why i don't buy into the culture excuse 100% (there are cultural influences admittedly) as the major factor because creativity and determination is greater than any cultural influence as history has shown time and time again.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I think a lack of infrastructure (mainly, inability to play on the korean ladder where there is tougher competition) is a contributing factor to foreigners' poorer performance compared to koreans, but not underlying cause. That underlying cause is culture - if you go to most (developed) asian countries such as South Korea, or Japan, you will notice that it is normal for parent's children to remain dependent on them and live in the same house well into the twenties until they have finished university and obtained a job. Part of this involves showing continued respect to your parents, doing chores etc. It is considered quite rude to decline an invitation to do something together from someone older than you such a parent or family friend without good reason ('I don't feel like it' or 'maybe next time' doesn't cut it). Although only one example, I have witnessed this first hand when I went on exchange and stayed with a korean family who had a 25 yo daughter still living with the family.
Now, I'm not saying that this familial situation doesn't occur in Western countries, but being from Australia myself, it's not uncommon for a kid to want to move out as soon as they're 18, live in college, go partying a lot, just generally do whatever you want. Although I'm overgeneralizing and both extremes occur in both Western and Eastern cultures, considering that most progamers are of the 18-22 (young adult) range, I think it's easy to see the general difference and how it impacts the skill levels of koreans vs foreigners. Point being, and I'm being very general again, we as westerners value independence a lot more than koreans.
Consider Kespa teams' transition to sc2 for example. The Kespa teams transitioned to sc2 all at once, sometime in 2012. It can be presumed that they did not have immediate practice partners with the eSF players who were undisputedly the best at the time. So how have they caught up so quickly and surpassed most of the eSF players? The only infrastructural advantages they had over foreigners were: a) access to korean ladder; b) very disciplined training regimes, coaching, inter-team support (presumably). Now someone might argue that the kespa players, coming from many years of brood war, already had developed amazing mechanics and that facilitated their extremely fast rise to the top. And that's most likely true, but what I think is important to realize is that those mechanics came as a result of their culture emphasising qualities such as discipline, accepting advice from those older than you (coaches) etc. Artosis once said that if you join a kespa team, the first thing they do is analyze your mechanics and force you change how you do certain actions to be more efficient/fast. This is an infrastructural advantage (having someone with expertise give you concrete advice on what to change) but it wouldn't be an advantage at all unless it was actually implemented into your play.
How would a player like naniwa, stephano, demuslim, or the now retired idra respond to that kind of environment? Or more generally, would most foreign players appreciate and make good use of being told when to wake up, how many hours they have to train, when lunch time is, when they have to do exercise, when they have to practice with another player in the team for hours to prep that player for an upcoming match, and so on. I would say - probably not. Have any foreigner players expressed a desire for that kind of environment over their current one? As a person from a western culture, it certainly sounds a lot easier and tempting to live an 'EG' lifestyle - the members of EG all basically do whatever they want during the day and frequently go out to gym, dinner, etc. They have far less strict practice requirements than a korean team house, live more independently, and I would venture a guess that that's how they like it.
The reason I think culture is the underlying problem is because the difference in infrastructure is not something that can't be made up for if you have enough commitment as a progamer. Why couldn't more foreign EG or TL progamers stay in the EG-TL house for the past year or so of proleague and practice in that environment? Why were all the foreigner visits so brief? Why does Coach Park's introduction to the EG-TL team coincide with virtually an all korean EG-TL roster - is that style of coaching incompatible with the (overgeneralising) foreign mindset? Finally, why is Snute, who, if you have watched his interviews, has expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his own skill in the past, doing so against korean players? Naniwa also. What about TLO who has taken great steps to change aspects of his life to improve as a player? If you have chosen to be a progamer, and you have little obligations elsewhere (I mean, the progamer sleeping schedule you often hear of is hardly indicative of great responsibilities) there is no excuse for not adapting your lifestyle and habits to those of a champion - unless of course, you are complacent and don't really want to. I know this sounds harsh to the foreign progamers who bring viewers like myself so much pleasure watching and following, but it may just be a hard truth.
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
How do you feel someone asked you a question, and when/after you answer he simply walks away?
As long as someone else was there to listen to me answer the question and provide rebuttal idgaf who started it.
On July 06 2013 12:16 contv wrote: I think a lack of infrastructure (mainly, inability to play on the korean ladder where there is tougher competition) is a contributing factor to foreigners' poorer performance compared to koreans, but not underlying cause. That underlying cause is culture - if you go to most (developed) asian countries such as South Korea, or Japan, you will notice that it is normal for parent's children to remain dependent on them and live in the same house well into the twenties until they have finished university and obtained a job. Part of this involves showing continued respect to your parents, doing chores etc. It is considered quite rude to decline an invitation to do something together from someone older than you such a parent or family friend without good reason ('I don't feel like it' or 'maybe next time' doesn't cut it). Although only one example, I have witnessed this first hand when I went on exchange and stayed with a korean family who had a 25 yo daughter still living with the family.
Now, I'm not saying that this familial situation doesn't occur in Western countries, but being from Australia myself, it's not uncommon for a kid to want to move out as soon as they're 18, live in college, go partying a lot, just generally do whatever you want. Although I'm overgeneralizing and both extremes occur in both Western and Eastern cultures, considering that most progamers are of the 18-22 (young adult) range, I think it's easy to see the general difference and how it impacts the skill levels of koreans vs foreigners. Point being, and I'm being very general again, we as westerners value independence a lot more than koreans.
Consider Kespa teams' transition to sc2 for example. The Kespa teams transitioned to sc2 all at once, sometime in 2012. It can be presumed that they did not have immediate practice partners with the eSF players who were undisputedly the best at the time. So how have they caught up so quickly and surpassed most of the eSF players? The only infrastructural advantages they had over foreigners were: a) access to korean ladder; b) very disciplined training regimes, coaching, inter-team support (presumably). Now someone might argue that the kespa players, coming from many years of brood war, already had developed amazing mechanics and that facilitated their extremely fast rise to the top. And that's most likely true, but what I think is important to realize is that those mechanics came as a result of their culture emphasising qualities such as discipline, accepting advice from those older than you (coaches) etc. Artosis once said that if you join a kespa team, the first thing they do is analyze your mechanics and force you change how you do certain actions to be more efficient/fast. This is an infrastructural advantage (having someone with expertise give you concrete advice on what to change) but it wouldn't be an advantage at all unless it was actually implemented into your play.
How would a player like naniwa, stephano, demuslim, or the now retired idra respond to that kind of environment? Or more generally, would most foreign players appreciate and make good use of being told when to wake up, how many hours they have to train, when lunch time is, when they have to do exercise, when they have to practice with another player in the team for hours to prep that player for an upcoming match, and so on. I would say - probably not. Have any foreigner players expressed a desire for that kind of environment over their current one? As a person from a western culture, it certainly sounds a lot easier and tempting to live an 'EG' lifestyle - the members of EG all basically do whatever they want during the day and frequently go out to gym, dinner, etc. They have far less strict practice requirements than a korean team house, live more independently, and I would venture a guess that that's how they like it.
The reason I think culture is the underlying problem is because the difference in infrastructure is not something that can't be made up for if you have enough commitment as a progamer. Why couldn't more foreign EG or TL progamers stay in the EG-TL house for the past year or so of proleague and practice in that environment? Why were all the foreigner visits so brief? Why does Coach Park's introduction to the EG-TL team coincide with virtually an all korean EG-TL roster - is that style of coaching incompatible with the (overgeneralising) foreign mindset? Finally, why is Snute, who, if you have watched his interviews, has expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his own skill in the past, doing so against korean players? Naniwa also. What about TLO who has taken great steps to change aspects of his life to improve as a player? If you have chosen to be a progamer, and you have little obligations elsewhere (I mean, the progamer sleeping schedule you often hear of is hardly indicative of great responsibilities) there is no excuse for not adapting your lifestyle and habits to those of a champion - unless of course, you are complacent and don't really want to. I know this sounds harsh to the foreign progamers who bring viewers like myself so much pleasure watching and following, but it may just be a hard truth.
As far as i know, American sports teams also look up to their coaches (koreans aren't the only ones who look up to their elders!) They have coaches in the american sport leagues that dictate what they do and how they present themselves in the public domain in the form of contracts. Basically what you are saying is that the korean esports sc2 teams are adopting a mainstream sport's view of coaching i.e NFL, MLB, football NHL etc style of coaching while the american esport sc2 teams aren't doing that. They are basically letting their team members do whatever they want. Because apparantly having an lunch/exercise and playing schedule is way too difficult to follow/manage if you are a member of a professional american esports team according to your post. I don't think having a set routine is detrimental to a player's growth. Maybe if the player wasn't determined then yeah having a easymode schedule would be great.
Basically your point is...oh the koreans esport teams are acting like professional sporting teams and the american esport teams are acting like amateur teams so working too hard is the reason why koreans > americans. Working hard isn't a culture. Plenty of americans work hard
On July 06 2013 12:16 contv wrote: I think a lack of infrastructure (mainly, inability to play on the korean ladder where there is tougher competition) is a contributing factor to foreigners' poorer performance compared to koreans, but not underlying cause. That underlying cause is culture - if you go to most (developed) asian countries such as South Korea, or Japan, you will notice that it is normal for parent's children to remain dependent on them and live in the same house well into the twenties until they have finished university and obtained a job. Part of this involves showing continued respect to your parents, doing chores etc. It is considered quite rude to decline an invitation to do something together from someone older than you such a parent or family friend without good reason ('I don't feel like it' or 'maybe next time' doesn't cut it). Although only one example, I have witnessed this first hand when I went on exchange and stayed with a korean family who had a 25 yo daughter still living with the family.
Now, I'm not saying that this familial situation doesn't occur in Western countries, but being from Australia myself, it's not uncommon for a kid to want to move out as soon as they're 18, live in college, go partying a lot, just generally do whatever you want. Although I'm overgeneralizing and both extremes occur in both Western and Eastern cultures, considering that most progamers are of the 18-22 (young adult) range, I think it's easy to see the general difference and how it impacts the skill levels of koreans vs foreigners. Point being, and I'm being very general again, we as westerners value independence a lot more than koreans.
Consider Kespa teams' transition to sc2 for example. The Kespa teams transitioned to sc2 all at once, sometime in 2012. It can be presumed that they did not have immediate practice partners with the eSF players who were undisputedly the best at the time. So how have they caught up so quickly and surpassed most of the eSF players? The only infrastructural advantages they had over foreigners were: a) access to korean ladder; b) very disciplined training regimes, coaching, inter-team support (presumably). Now someone might argue that the kespa players, coming from many years of brood war, already had developed amazing mechanics and that facilitated their extremely fast rise to the top. And that's most likely true, but what I think is important to realize is that those mechanics came as a result of their culture emphasising qualities such as discipline, accepting advice from those older than you (coaches) etc. Artosis once said that if you join a kespa team, the first thing they do is analyze your mechanics and force you change how you do certain actions to be more efficient/fast. This is an infrastructural advantage (having someone with expertise give you concrete advice on what to change) but it wouldn't be an advantage at all unless it was actually implemented into your play.
How would a player like naniwa, stephano, demuslim, or the now retired idra respond to that kind of environment? Or more generally, would most foreign players appreciate and make good use of being told when to wake up, how many hours they have to train, when lunch time is, when they have to do exercise, when they have to practice with another player in the team for hours to prep that player for an upcoming match, and so on. I would say - probably not. Have any foreigner players expressed a desire for that kind of environment over their current one? As a person from a western culture, it certainly sounds a lot easier and tempting to live an 'EG' lifestyle - the members of EG all basically do whatever they want during the day and frequently go out to gym, dinner, etc. They have far less strict practice requirements than a korean team house, live more independently, and I would venture a guess that that's how they like it.
The reason I think culture is the underlying problem is because the difference in infrastructure is not something that can't be made up for if you have enough commitment as a progamer. Why couldn't more foreign EG or TL progamers stay in the EG-TL house for the past year or so of proleague and practice in that environment? Why were all the foreigner visits so brief? Why does Coach Park's introduction to the EG-TL team coincide with virtually an all korean EG-TL roster - is that style of coaching incompatible with the (overgeneralising) foreign mindset? Finally, why is Snute, who, if you have watched his interviews, has expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his own skill in the past, doing so against korean players? Naniwa also. What about TLO who has taken great steps to change aspects of his life to improve as a player? If you have chosen to be a progamer, and you have little obligations elsewhere (I mean, the progamer sleeping schedule you often hear of is hardly indicative of great responsibilities) there is no excuse for not adapting your lifestyle and habits to those of a champion - unless of course, you are complacent and don't really want to. I know this sounds harsh to the foreign progamers who bring viewers like myself so much pleasure watching and following, but it may just be a hard truth.
As far as i know, American sports teams also look up to their coaches (koreans aren't the only ones who look up to their elders!) They have coaches in the american sport leagues that dictate what they do and how they present themselves in the public domain in the form of contracts. Basically what you are saying is that the korean esports sc2 teams are adopting a mainstream sport's view of coaching i.e NFL, MLB, football NHL etc style of coaching while the american esport sc2 teams aren't doing that. They are basically letting their team members do whatever they want. Because apparantly having an lunch/exercise and playing schedule is way too difficult to follow/manage if you are a member of a professional american esports team according to your post. I don't think having a set routine is detrimental to a player's growth. Maybe if the player wasn't determined then yeah having a easymode schedule would be great.
Basically your point is...oh the koreans esport teams are acting like professional sporting teams and the american esport teams are acting like amateur teams so working too hard is the reason why koreans > americans. Working hard isn't a culture. Plenty of americans work hard
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
I'm gonna play the asian card here I live in the city that has the biggest japanese colony outside japan I grew up on a neighborhood where 30% of my friends were asian, my mom's sister married a nissei, i have half asian cousins and all that I went to high school where you needed a high score on the tests to get in, and guess what? a ton of asians I'm an engineer, and guess what? lot of asians just to point that I like to think I know how they operate lol
my point is, asians are awesome on grinding, stuborness (like, when they put their minds on it, they'll fucking do it) and optimizing stuff. and that translates so well into games! specially when sc2 rewards the repetition and the smallest of mistakes can be your ruin.
OTOH, I guess you'll never see a korean player planting a hatchery on their terran enemy's natural after spotting a CC first.
I remember the age of empires scene... the best players were the most adaptative ones, coz the maps were random, there were a lot of ways to win, etc
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
I Don't mean to derail the thread, bust I just wanna point out, as an exaple of other sports since you mentioned it, that Spain and England have a much better infrastructure in Football than Brasil and argentina, and still cannot compare in results. Spain had a lot of money, but this generation is the only one to win something and they've not been able to keep up the work coz their strategy have already been figured out and they'll probably fade back to a secondary tier in the football elite.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Guys, when were throwing the word "lazy" around in conjunction with foreigners, can we remember that this is only "lazy" relative to the Korean's. They still practice hard... relative to many other people (in some other professions anyway)
Something has to be said for exposure to higher levels of competition across the board as Koreans spread out. Depending on which Koreans go where, the level of play is forced to improve to match the caliber of opponents that players have to face. What I mean is, the foreign component either becomes stronger or the Koreans who stray too far from the tip top level become worse and fall behind their counterparts in Korea. We have to see how this idea plays out over some time. Can't expect it to happen overnight.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
You think code b players have it easy? I don't think so. I think it's a lot easier for foreigners to get noticed rather than Koreans since the level of competition in Korea is ridiculously high and even getting out of code b is a feat in itself. To get noticed you need to get to the top of the ladder or be an entertaining streamer or get into code b a. Getting top of na is easier than kr
Champions have to make sacrifices to win in most cases. A recent exception is polt who is a one man clan who won dream hack beating kespa players while learning English and getting a degree. He might have trained in a team before but he has been solo for a while now and has irl stuff so it shows being a champ is partially having the right attitude and determination. Polt's English has improved so much. That is called determination of a champ. You can't get that from culture.
I've always thought the foreigner/korean terminology used by casters, players and some fans to be pretty silly, and quite self defeating. In BW it made some sense since the pro scene was almost entirely in Korea, now its not so dramatically the case. When the best players fly in from Korea to say MLG, Dreamhack, w/e, and in your matches against them you're basically the 'away team' (foreigner), even if you're playing in your home country, it can deflate your confidence quite easily. The skill of the Koreans is great, but not insurmountable. It would be nice if the language would change in that regard, but of course I don't expect that to happen without nice 'foreigner' results (good luck getting that while everyone puts your opponents up on a pedestal!)
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
My opinion isn't very important over the opinion of others, which is why I didn't feel the need to be active in this thread (when it comes to writing replies) and my responses would be redundant with whats already been said. Most of the comments in here are theoretical anyway. Its the consensus that matters most. Granted that, I will weigh in on the infrastructure thing as well.
I'm enjoying the discussion since there are a lot of people who are giving well thought out replies.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
It's all for the same reason that the big school in your provice/state/area with 2000 students had a better football team than the school with 200 students. The teams have a better pool of competitive players to pull from.
The country is an environment which breeds e-sports players. If you have a whole lot of them, then clearly the teams can pick and choose the best players for their teams, and these are the players we end up seeing at tournaments.
England? Canada? USA? Europe? Not nearly as many players, not nearly the size of a player pool, so only a few people actually have the talent that can take on a Korean pro heads up.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
Mvp was in Korea when playing in WCS eu, not in germany, dont spread lies
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
uhhh you can stick your head in the sand deny all you want.
Koreans are that dominant and it's been getting worse. you can cherry pick some wins sure, but overall its not even close.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
It's because Koreans already knew how to become godlike at progaming since before computer games even existed due to their history with Go, another instance where they wound up consistently dominating at a game invented by another country.
Just kidding, I have no idea if there's any connection between Koreans being amazingly good at those two games. In any case, I don't think it's being too Orientalist to say that the culture is just very into being super competitive, and putting in countless grueling hours into a thing in order to really master it. They're good at Starcraft because they like it. Other countries are keeping up better in League of Legends, I believe, because it's just more popular around the world. Sirlin compared the early stage of a Starcraft game to being more similar to DDR than any kind of game where you fight your opponent directly, and that's always going to limit the number of people who really get into it.
Ultimately I think that, for Americans, focusing on Koreans is dodging the real problem, which is how awful the US scene is and if there's anything that can be possibly be done about it.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
I get the feeling that if an e-sport would be treated in exactly the same way as football is for instance at high schools, that is training very hard in a controlled way while still maintaining a social life, talent would bloom rather similarly to Koreans. Most youths have to grind ladder games to get better, even having one general e-sports coach for the entire class would probably improve training a lot. A lot of Asian countries have insane practice regiments for a lot of sports, but they don't win everything, not even close as a matter of fact. But honestly, South Korea is at the moment the only country that really embraced e-sports as a whole with Starcraft as their crown jewel, so it makes sense that they'd dominate the game until another country embraces it the way the Koreans do.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
You're still a teen so I'll ignore the aggressiveness and pointless insults.
Anyway, are you not proving my point? You simply gave more excuses on why foreigners shouldn't practice hard. If you ask yourself "am I giving 100% effort. Am I doing everything in my power to become the best SC2 player" and the answer is no, then you have no business complaining. It's as simple as that. The fact you are typing your name into TL search and attacking someone you don't know instead of practicing simply strengthens my argument and weakens yours.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win.
What is your point that noone has force anyone to play the game? Thats not really relevant. Also where do you get that non-korean pro's dont want to win? They practise alot and invest much in their gaming career. Yes less than their Korean counter parts, however:
What some people apparantly think they should do is not only invest their current life completely into it, but also invest their future. And quite frankly if that is what it takes for non-Koreans to compete with the best Koreans, then I hope they never do it. Sure it can be nice for viewers, but it is simply not worth it to throw away your education for your 1-2 years of fame.
Next is the question, can you really say so easily the difference is because Koreans practise more? Spending more hours playing games doesn't mean you improve your skill faster. As a related example, I see Chinese PhD students make more hours than their European counterparts. Even after we substract the time they sleep on their keyboard. But I wouldn't say their output is higher. I also am not saying it is lower, just that spending more hours doing something isn't always the solution.
I think it is mainly a combination of culture and infrastructure, where culture is the most important one. Yeah there are some team houses outside of Korea, but Korea itself is completely centered around Seoul. The European ladder is slightly larger than the Korean ladder, but those players are way more dispersed. But the main thing I think is the cultural thing, where non-koreans are less likely to see pro-gaming as a valid career path. And I cannot blame them for it.
@Rhaegal, what exactly is your goal with that comment? If it was mindlessly insulting someone without contributing anything, you succeeded.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard
Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win.
What is your point that noone has force anyone to play the game? Thats not really relevant. Also where do you get that non-korean pro's dont want to win? They practise alot and invest much in their gaming career. Yes less than their Korean counter parts, however:
What some people apparantly think they should do is not only invest their current life completely into it, but also invest their future. And quite frankly if that is what it takes for non-Koreans to compete with the best Koreans, then I hope they never do it. Sure it can be nice for viewers, but it is simply not worth it to throw away your education for your 1-2 years of fame.
Next is the question, can you really say so easily the difference is because Koreans practise more? Spending more hours playing games doesn't mean you improve your skill faster. As a related example, I see Chinese PhD students make more hours than their European counterparts. Even after we substract the time they sleep on their keyboard. But I wouldn't say their output is higher. I also am not saying it is lower, just that spending more hours doing something isn't always the solution.
I think it is mainly a combination of culture and infrastructure, where culture is the most important one. Yeah there are some team houses outside of Korea, but Korea itself is completely centered around Seoul. The European ladder is slightly larger than the Korean ladder, but those players are way more dispersed. But the main thing I think is the cultural thing, where non-koreans are less likely to see pro-gaming as a valid career path. And I cannot blame them for it.
@Rhaegal, what exactly is your goal with that comment? If it was mindlessly insulting someone without contributing anything, you succeeded.
Because I think people that put forth less effort deserve less, I'm insulting?
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education.
But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro.
I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game.
I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education.
But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro.
I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game.
I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education.
But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro.
I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game.
I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
I would also be careful about labelling Koreans as grinders.
I'd like to address some stereotypes that i don't believe are true
1) Koreans are used to living in small rooms with 10+ people. Yes, Koreans do live in generally smaller rooms but that's because some cities are popular and rent expensive (like london, England where i'm from) but they aren't used to living with 10 other people. Koreans also want and need privacy like every other human being. Koreans have a low birth rate and very small families. You are more likely to find groups/families of 10 or more people living under one roof in america than in korea imo. The reason why koreans have to live together is the issue of cost. I suppose some teams aren't as rich as EG and rent in soeul and other cities are much more expensive than rent in some parts of america. Koreans are more dedicated than foreigners so that's why they tolerate living under one roof. Of course any korean if given the choice would prefer his own apartment.
2) Koreans are so hard working they have no lives no g/f. Everything is dedicated to the game. Answer = no. MC has a girlfriend. Boxer has a fiance (i suppose due to him being an older gamer). A lot of other koreans progamers also have girlfriends just like western and american people (wow i know!)
3) Korean parents are understanding of their kid's desire to be a progamer. Wrong. Korean parents are just the same as any other human parents. Some are liberal and some are strict as hell. Not all parents want their kids to play games for a living.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
You think code b players have it easy? I don't think so. I think it's a lot easier for foreigners to get noticed rather than Koreans since the level of competition in Korea is ridiculously high and even getting out of code b is a feat in itself. To get noticed you need to get to the top of the ladder or be an entertaining streamer or get into code b a. Getting top of na is easier than kr
Champions have to make sacrifices to win in most cases. A recent exception is polt who is a one man clan who won dream hack beating kespa players while learning English and getting a degree. He might have trained in a team before but he has been solo for a while now and has irl stuff so it shows being a champ is partially having the right attitude and determination. Polt's English has improved so much. That is called determination of a champ. You can't get that from culture.
I didn't say Korean Code B players have it easy, I said it is easier for Korean players to become pro gamers, because of the infrastructure in Korea, talented players get drafted into B-teams, and subsequently get the opportunity to develop by playing with more experienced people. Aspiring pros in the West have no such opportunity. When I said ladder, I didn't mean the Battle.net ladder, I meant the hierarchy in eSports..amateur -> semi-pro -> fulltime professional gamer. I doubt there are more than 10/15 proper full-time SC2 professionals in North America who actually have career potential in eSports. As I said before, a streamer who earns a few hundred dollars a month from streaming and some gear from his semi-pro team is not an eSports professional.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions.
Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
As I said, I didn't mean the SC2 ladder on battle.net, I meant the eSports hierarchy, and the way an aspiring eSports professional can develop. They don't get a free ticket into a B-team, but there are drafts, tournaments for amateurs, and often Korean amateurs get picked up after being scouted by coaches or on recommendation of players who might meet them on ladder or whom they use as practice partners...it's a whole ecosystem. There is no such thing in the west, not even a hint of it.Yes, some foreigners do get rewarded very well despite not being as good or as dedicated as their Korean counterparts, but this is a really tiny fraction of them. Outside of EG players, and people like Grubby/White-Ra, Western pros do not really get salaries which they can live comfortably on (check the blogs/interviews with PiG, Darkforce, even viOlet - who has a lot of western progaming experience since the Warcraft 3 days - constantly tells people not to choose a career in esports), and this is why rightly so, western pros do not forego their education.
Giving up schooling and social lives is not something good, and it's a pretty stupid life decision. Yes, it's dedication, but it's neither a healthy one, nor a socially productive one. Doing it in the west is also a lot riskier for the simple reason, that you cannot really be truly successful in SC2 unless you move to Korea (with a few exceptions). Ditching your entire life, education, and moving to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to try and become good in a videogame which won't remain relevant in 5-10 years time...wow..would you do it? No one with half a brain would.
On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote: I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.
If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players.
Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.)
Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind.
I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...)
That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene.
On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Answer in one word: Infrastructure
except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc.
only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve.
It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house.
Mvp was in Korea when playing in WCS eu, not in germany, dont spread lies
I'm pretty sure he was in Germany, living with MC in Reis' apartment during the RO16 (when he faced SaSe), I would appreciate not being called a liar, mighty mature of you.
As I said, I didn't mean the SC2 ladder on battle.net, I meant the eSports hierarchy, and the way an aspiring eSports professional can develop. They don't get a free ticket into a B-team, but there are drafts, tournaments for amateurs, and often Korean amateurs get picked up after being scouted by coaches or on recommendation of players who might meet them on ladder or whom they use as practice partners...it's a whole ecosystem. There is no such thing in the west, not even a hint of it.Yes, some foreigners do get rewarded very well despite not being as good or as dedicated as their Korean counterparts, but this is a really tiny fraction of them. Outside of EG players, and people like Grubby/White-Ra, Western pros do not really get salaries which they can live comfortably on (check the blogs/interviews with PiG, Darkforce, even viOlet - who has a lot of western progaming experience since the Warcraft 3 days - constantly tells people not to choose a career in esports), and this is why rightly so, western pros do not forego their education.
Giving up schooling and social lives is not something good, and it's a pretty stupid life decision. Yes, it's dedication, but it's neither a healthy one, nor a socially productive one. Doing it in the west is also a lot riskier for the simple reason, that you cannot really be truly successful in SC2 unless you move to Korea (with a few exceptions). Ditching your entire life, education, and moving to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to try and become good in a videogame which won't remain relevant in 5-10 years time...wow..would you do it? No one with half a brain would.
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
In poker terms, Some koreans put all their chips and bet big in sc2. Americans are more cautious and bet less and take less risks. How exactly can you be the best or even compete with the best if you aren't giving 100% and doing everything in your power to improve as a player?
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language. Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I always compare SC2 to pro bodybuilding. In bodybuilding, unless you're a top star with tons of sponsorship or winning competitions, you are not going to be making much money, many won't make a dime. There is a very low chance of becoming a successful bodybuilder, and it is not a very popular sport.
Yet, thousands upon thousands of people are trying to get their pro card. So much hard work and effort, moreso than any SC2 player would ever know, for such little hope of reward.
Why do it then? It's because they have a drive for excellence, for greatness. If the fear of failure is something that plagues your mind, slows you down, or makes you second guess, then you have no business trying to become pro at anything. Go work a 9-5 with the rest of the sheep.
In western societies the dignity of man is important, thats why western pros usually dont sacrifice their entire life for this game. (And if they try to it fails because you cannot train a tiger to run if he is trapped in a cage)
Koreans are used to working as linear as the computer chips they make and thus have no problem to play a game for 14 hours a day from age 15 to 23. But lets be honest, that is a fucking painful life. 1% succeeds, 99% have wasted their youth in a terrible way, gratz!
Its a different topic but we as spectators carry responsibility for the players and I dont think we should reward the Korean system. We are providing young people incentives to throw away their lives, that has to stop!
What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years).
But that is nothing that cannot be copied with sufficient commitment. Or how on earth could Polt have won MLG last weekend?
And how do you go about copying it?
How do you build a non-existent teamhouse infrastructure that allows players to focus on nothing but their game while also keeping them decently healthy? Westerners are spread so far apart, and on top of that who would make such a massive investment? What team do you think can put in the resources and effort to make it happen? And not just a "frat house", or indeed merely teammates living together, but a legitimate training facility of sorts?
What about the competitive environment? Korea thrives because there are so many hardcore competitive players. Blizzard are trying to do something similar with WCS, more specifically WCS AM, by bringing in these highly skilled players to up the ante. And yet, if you ask most people in the community, it does nothing but harm. You are putting players in a much more competitive environment than they were before, without giving them the necessary support to remain competitive in said environment.
How do you expect these pros to remain motivated when they're pitted against much tougher opponents without really having the same means of preparing themselves? How do you expect them to keep trying hard when most of them are aware that they won't improve at the same rate regardless? And if someone does have the fiery passion to be the best, well, tough shit. Again, the means to practice to reach the same level are simply not there.
And sure, people love to bring up Polt and Stephano etc, but you must not forget that there will always be outliers, there will always be people who have the talent to require less practice and still succeed. They're not the rule, they're the exception. If you're going to bring up Polt and Stephano as examples of people who don't need Korean training facilities, why not also bring up NesTea and DongRaeGu, two of the most iconic Zergs of Wings of Liberty, both of which admitted multiple times that they don't like practicing and don't practice very much? Why not also bring up Stork, widely considered one of the best BW players of all time (and rightfully so), who has also stated that he practices very little and also plays other games? They're just outliers, not remotely representative of the average player.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
I think at least speaking for America, the reason that we suck in comparison is the culture. Gaming is not accepted as a healthy hobby. More so computer gaming. Playing Xbox is even more respectable. Sitting on the couch watching Glee is more acceptable. Its sad but true. The next thing is that Americans care a lot about money. Most of our smart people will not play games but follow the path their parents lay out for them. Our most potential players probably never even played the game. Same thing as soccer. Our best athletes are playing Football, Basketball, and Baseball.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
EG.Puma, took a while though. But yeah, I think he retired didnt he? I dunno if he just lost motivation and stuff but that can probably be argued
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung?
I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote: is op even active in this discussion?
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung?
I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed.
On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote: Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.
all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak
as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?
i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses
On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:
On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote: [quote] er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...
it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.
ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion
When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?
When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.
forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.
Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".
Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.
Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.
Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.
The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung?
I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed.
ok
You just pointed out a bunch of players that you know not to be signed to Korean teams, but didn't check to see if they fell off due to joining them. Ryung, Alive and MMA were teamless due to the Slayers non-sense. Ryung was literally sleeping on the floor with two other players and practicing on one computer. PuMa left after his own fall off due to failure to adapt to the changing game. MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
There is no Kespa in NA or EU. Going to Korea for extended periods has cause a good number of players to become worse due to culture shock and inability to have any social life beyond SC2. There are no teams of highly skilled players to practice against in NA at the same level that the Kespa players can. These teams have been cranking out great players for BW for 10 years and there is no reason they can't find and grown talent in SC2 as well.
There are foreign players that can become as good as the Kespa Koreans, like TLO and Demuslim. Or Korean players who can rise outside of Kespa, like Polt. But there will ALWAY be fewer of them than there are Kespa players. Because the Kespa teams are better at finding the best and sending the rest home. And while Kepsa is sending a ton of those players to WCS NA, they have a better chance(by simple raw number of players) of winning everything.
And until the players are required to commit more than two weeks outside of Korea in NA to win WCS, the Kesap players will always have a raw numerical advantage over the independent or foreign team players.
aLive wasnt on Slayers. He was on TSL and joined Fnatic. He admitted to falling off because Fnatic had such a lax practice environment so that argument could actually have merit.
although he did win IPL 4 soon after joining Fnatic so it could have been him becoming complacent with his spot in sc2 after winning.
On July 07 2013 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: aLive wasnt on Slayers. He was on TSL and joined Fnatic. He admitted to falling off because Fnatic had such a lax practice environment so that argument could actually have merit.
For one player, on one team, at one specific point. It is not a catch all argument for all Korean players that switch to non-Korean teams. Its a lazy argument used by people who just want to claim foreigners are lazy, when there are some many other things at play.
I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise."
On July 07 2013 15:36 Micromnky wrote: I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise."
Maybe thats a point. In Brasil, people leave their families at 12, 13 yr old and go to a football club to try to be a new Pele/Ronaldo/Neymar. Its sad, but in some profissional areas, this is almost required.
On July 07 2013 11:25 StreetWise wrote: I think at least speaking for America, the reason that we suck in comparison is the culture. Gaming is not accepted as a healthy hobby. More so computer gaming. Playing Xbox is even more respectable. Sitting on the couch watching Glee is more acceptable. Its sad but true. The next thing is that Americans care a lot about money. Most of our smart people will not play games but follow the path their parents lay out for them. Our most potential players probably never even played the game. Same thing as soccer. Our best athletes are playing Football, Basketball, and Baseball.
I agreed with your saying, and i can tell clearly since i lived in US and i live in seoul korea now i can see the difference between foreign and Korea Culture is way way way sooooooooooooo big korean culture is accustomed to communal life it is the key of difference so koreans has no significant difficulty or worry about life of environment in korean team house and they has competitive society in every fields this culture makes to koreans get more efforts and i have to say about the success of team house envirionment in foreign(western) culture. Personally, I see the negative side in foreigners team house. In comparison with korean culture, foreigners team house could have a lot of difficult control peoples and develop training
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
On July 07 2013 15:36 Micromnky wrote: I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise."
Maybe thats a point. In Brasil, people leave their families at 12, 13 yr old and go to a football club to try to be a new Pele/Ronaldo/Neymar. Its sad, but in some profissional areas, this is almost required.
If you want SC2 pros to take risks like that you will need to make them earn the same money football stars do. Which you can't because the audience is nowhere close in numbers.
The whole 'foreigner level' discussion is entirely circular. Foreigners will never catch up because the scene lacks training infrastructure. Foreign scene lacks infrastructure because Brood War was never big outside Korea. In the end it's fools dream that pro players will drop their entire lives and leverage their future carrier on a video game that may be dead 2 years from now. The rewards just don't match the risks.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
And yes, Japan has superior fighting game infrastructure due to arcades, smaller country which = more concentrated competition, etc. etc. and yet U.S. FG players are still able to hang and easily go toe to toe with Japan SF players in the more recent times.
So no, it doesn't take a superior infrastructure; it takes hardwork and dedication, and just learning to actually play the game rather than rely on some gimmicky ass play like hellbat dropships, or some other nonsensical gimmick that alot of non-Korean players tend to heavily rely on.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Or is the infrastructure for both Japan, the US and EU equal in fighting games, because none of things I talked about above exist for that game.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. So no, my analogy still holds. If the rest of the world can catch up to Japan who has held a literal 99.9% chokehold on SF for literally decades, then there's 0 reason why the rest of the world can't catch up to Korea in SC2. It's just that most of the world just relies on unreliable bullshit that doesn't stand toe to toe with someone that plays the game and learns all the ins and outs of said game.
I've said this over and over again. The rest of the world just comes up with excuses as to why they can't compete with Koreans, rather than coming up with solutions as to how they can improve their game to at the very least match against the Koreans and don't get stomped into a shit stain come big tournaments. It's almost sickening and a completely defeatist attitude, and a big reason why I stopped watching SC2 tournaments, because non-Korean players mostly go in with the attitude that they are already at a disadvantage if they are facing a 'Korean Godlike LOL E-Sport Professional Trained Employee'
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
The endless argument that non-korean SC2 players just need to "try harder" and "be willing to give up everything to be the best" are just old. Now that Kespa is in the mix, it is just going to be a numbers game. They are going to have a larger number of more talented players because they are better at find and training them.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested. In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote: Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. The advantage the Japanese had was akin to a professional advantage, as they had various 'fighting houses' that people could go train at and improve their game, against the best competition possible. This is on top of the already ridiculously huge arcade culture that they have had over there. America and the rest of the world had nothing like that, and yet they caught up.
And you wanna know why I call it whining? Because the rest of the world hasn't been able to produce one single player without Korean help that is able to consistently compete vs the best Koreans. Not one. Not a single player. Even during the height of Japanese dominance and Chinese dominance in their respective games (Street Fighter, DotA, WC3 etc.), the rest of the world has been able to produce some teams/players that are able to compete vs them and beat them. The closest the world ever has been was with Stephano, and he still can't do it on any consistent basis.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote: [quote]
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
[quote]
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
[quote] You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
[quote] I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote: MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote: [quote]
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
[quote]
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
[quote]
Well I guess we just disagree then
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Like, I'm talking about DK, iG, and LGD having tons of disposable income at their hands, especially iG which is owned by a multi-millionare.
And yes, foreign players are lazy in general. Are you serious? Most of them think playing 14 hours a day in high level competitive matches is a waste of time when they could be going out and doing better things. Well guess fucking what, I guess you shouldn't have chosen competitive gaming for an occupation.
On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
im sure it may be more indepth scouts and people lookin at games to better prepare them i cant see it beingt totally down to mechanical skills the game has a finite limit to when things can be done essentially, they just get the very most optimised run of it
not sure though but i know what you are trying to say
On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote: do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.).
These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture.
On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote: do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.).
These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture.
But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA.
yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote: [quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote: [quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote: [quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote: [quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote: [quote] Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote: do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.).
These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture.
But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA.
yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
Try a response that isn't a strawman argument, because I'm not generalizing to all activities, and I explained why nurture makes far more sense than nature for this game, specifically.
On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote: do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.).
These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture.
But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA.
yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
I challenge any nation to put together at an America Foot ball team that could even compete in the NFL and qualify for the play offs. I will even give you 5 years to do it and it still won't happen.
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote: [quote] Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote: [quote] Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote: [quote] Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
Arguing that infrastructure means nothing is batshit insane. If the examples of players falling off after joining foreign teams doesn't do it for you, how about the opposite? EG-TL was failing miserably in Proleague despite having a strong roster. Lo and behold, they hire a new head coach and he manages to get the team to pull around and start taking wins.
To equate StarCraft to boxing, up-and-coming NA players basically have a lumpy punching bag to practice against. Half the time it falls apart when you hit it. The Korean side on the other hand has shiny new equipment, an assortment of the best sparring partners in the world, a coach telling them what to practice, etc.. Does this mean the guy with his lumpy punching bag can never win? Hell no, but it's an uphill battle.
Effort and motivation and all that are certainly large chunks of it too, but telling the guy with his lumpy punching bag that he should just shut up and try harder isn't too helpful because it ignores the crux of the problem: there are multiple issues bogging down the NA scene in particular that all somewhat rely on each other. Foreigners -do- need to try harder, but they -do- also need better infrastructure. That infrastructure is hard to justify when they lack the opportunities to turn that into profit. Those opportunities are hard to come by when , they lack the skill/dedicationetc. etc.
It's a much more complicated scenario than just "try harder!" or "more infrastructure!"
On July 08 2013 04:36 shelfofjustice wrote: Arguing that infrastructure means nothing is batshit insane. If the examples of players falling off after joining foreign teams doesn't do it for you, how about the opposite? EG-TL was failing miserably in Proleague despite having a strong roster. Lo and behold, they hire a new head coach and he manages to get the team to pull around and start taking wins.
To equate StarCraft to boxing, up-and-coming NA players basically have a lumpy punching bag to practice against. Half the time it falls apart when you hit it. The Korean side on the other hand has shiny new equipment, an assortment of the best sparring partners in the world, a coach telling them what to practice, etc.. Does this mean the guy with his lumpy punching bag can never win? Hell no, but it's an uphill battle.
Effort and motivation and all that are certainly large chunks of it too, but telling the guy with his lumpy punching bag that he should just shut up and try harder isn't too helpful because it ignores the crux of the problem: there are multiple issues bogging down the NA scene in particular that all somewhat rely on each other. Foreigners -do- need to try harder, but they -do- also need better infrastructure. That infrastructure is hard to justify when they lack the opportunities to turn that into profit. Those opportunities are hard to come by when , they lack the skill/dedicationetc. etc.
It's a much more complicated scenario than just "try harder!" or "more infrastructure!"
It is weird that it could be a little of both. I would like to see more small scale, local tournaments that focused on the NA scene. Dota 2 seems to have all the cups all the time and it made all their teams better.
On July 08 2013 04:33 Monsen wrote: Their eyes are slits so their vision is more focused and more effective. Stupid and racist, really.
Fixed.
No idea how that's supposed to be funny.
get a sense of humor and you might find out.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
well, eh, i guess if you make a tournament for europeans only the winner must be... european.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
well, eh, i guess if you make a tournament for europeans only the winner must be... european.
And the teams get better because they play a lot in a competitive environment and were able to get to the level of the Chinese teams.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote: [quote] Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
I'd love to see an honest chart of the hours the different players practise. Not all koreans are the beasts that we think of as korean pro gamers.
The other day DeMuslim was saying that to be a competitive pro gamer you need to practise for a minimum of 5 hours per day. I compared it in my head to what I think was an interview with a famous Korean woman who talked about flash or someone practising 14 hours a day in BW. Add that to the structured practise it's possible to get in a team with dedicated practise partners and the knowledge that can be passed around in a concentrated community and top Korean pro gamers have a lot of advantages.
On Inside the Game suppy was talking about his mlg 6-pool vs demuslim that major had told him to try. Juan/major said Demuslim wouldn't know that you had to drop an engi bay to stop it and that proved to be true. That was probably a months old strategy from korea that Demu was encountering for the first time.
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote: [quote] Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote: [quote] Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote: [quote] Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
"And remember, rather than arguing the main point I'll just bring up a completely unrelated strawman argument because I suck at arguing the main argument"
Because homegrown NBA allstar teams are invincible no matter what right? I've never seen an NBA allstar team ever lose to a ragtag foreign group of amateurs. That's never happened since the existence of basketball. Gtfo.
Don't have to cook their own food? This just shows how fucking ignorant you are. Do you even understand what a B-Teamer has to do on a Kespa team? Goes to fucking show you know absolutely nothing. You act like the B-Teamers have it all made, private rooms, there own fucking maid or some shit. Holy shit. I can't even believe what I just read.
I will refrain from the amount of ignorance you just displayed about Korean proteams in general, especially what a lower ranked player has to do in a Korean progaming house, because it is 100% evident that you are completely ignorant as to the situation a player enters when he joins a progaming house as a second string player.
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: [quote] I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
Actually MLS has done a lot to expand american viewership of football (real football not handegg ^_^ i do love san fran 49ers though ^_-)
You got top former European star players such as beckham, thierry henry, Robbie Keane who went to play for MLS.
yes it's not at the same level as NFL but at least they are trying and they are expanding. Having a lot of former top stars attracts a lot of attention.
But that doesn't mean people won't try to make mls even bigger in the states. Considering a lot of latinos are from south america who are huge on football, i can see MLS numbers swelling in the future due to increasing latino birth rates.
Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't expect NFL equivalent salaries but those progamers who try now will be the artosis and tasteless of the future. I.e guys who love sc2 and get paid to commentate on a sport they love. Even if they don't have tournament success, they can be the sc3 commentators of the future. You might say oh but they will forgo their college education etc. But if you love something you take that risk.
Look at artosis, tasteless...day9. They all took a risk with sc2 and made it a huge part of their lives and now they are community pillars. And they aren't winos living on the streets either. Greg also took a risk with esports and he isn't a pauper either. Of course there are others who didn't make it like lastshadow but we do salute him for his efforts and he is an esports pioneer like naniwa as far as i'm concerned. Making esports into sporting mainstream.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
"And remember, rather than arguing the main point I'll just bring up a completely unrelated strawman argument because I suck at arguing the main argument"
Because homegrown NBA allstar teams are invincible no matter what right? I've never seen an NBA allstar team ever lose to a ragtag foreign group of amateurs. That's never happened since the existence of basketball. Gtfo.
Don't have to cook their own food? This just shows how fucking ignorant you are. Do you even understand what a B-Teamer has to do on a Kespa team? Goes to fucking show you know absolutely nothing. You act like the B-Teamers have it all made, private rooms, there own fucking maid or some shit. Holy shit. I can't even believe what I just read.
I will refrain from the amount of ignorance you just displayed about Korean proteams in general, especially what a lower ranked player has to do in a Korean progaming house, because it is 100% evident that you are completely ignorant as to the situation a player enters when he joins a progaming house as a second string player.
If you are going to tell me that an amateur football team could beat the Patriots or amateur soccer team could beat Manchester United, I am going to say you are very silly. I don't care how much they practice.
You mean that they are called dishwashers and they do the dishes? That is why the Kespa players called the GSL the dishwasher league forever? You mean they do chores around the house. If there are 7 B-teamers, one of them would only have to do dishes 3-5 times a week at max. In real life, I have to do dishes like 10 times a week or more if I cook for more than one meal a day and a few on the weekend. The same goes with food. And rent, which they don't have to have a job to earn, since the teams deals with that too. When you share the chores between a lot of people, its less chores for everyone as a whole.
But your right, young, unsigned NA players should just try harder. They should live in shitty apartments and work minimum wage jobs for the hopes of making it big. They should have no social life or health insurance or any ability to save money. They should risk it all on the dream of being as good as those Kespa players and hitchhike to the next MLG. And if they get tired of living like that, its because they are a quitter. And if they ever complain that they don't know how to compete against the Kespa players, its clear they are a whiner.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
Actually MLS has done a lot to expand american viewership of football (real football not handegg ^_^ i do love san fran 49ers though ^_-)
You got top former European star players such as beckham, thierry henry, Robbie Keane who went to play for MLS.
yes it's not at the same level as NFL but at least they are trying and they are expanding. Having a lot of former top stars attracts a lot of attention.
But that doesn't mean people won't try to make mls even bigger in the states. Considering a lot of latinos are from south america who are huge on football, i can see MLS numbers swelling in the future due to increasing latino birth rates.
Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't expect NFL equivalent salaries but those progamers who try now will be the artosis and tasteless of the future. I.e guys who love sc2 and get paid to commentate on a sport they love. Even if they don't have tournament success, they can be the sc3 commentators of the future. You might say oh but they will forgo their college education etc. But if you love something you take that risk.
Look at artosis, tasteless...day9. They all took a risk with sc2 and made it a huge part of their lives and now they are community pillars. And they aren't winos living on the streets either. Greg also took a risk with esports and he isn't a pauper either. Of course there are others who didn't make it like lastshadow but we do salute him for his efforts and he is an esports pioneer like naniwa as far as i'm concerned. Making esports into sporting mainstream.
I'm not saying people can't do it. The pros signed to teams should be able to practice enough. I just saying it is fucking hard as hell for any unsigned player and having the entire B-team of Kesap competing in WCS NA makes it even more difficult. I am sure some will make it, but shitting on the players how hang up their mouse and say "I don't know how to beat these Kespa players, no matter how hard I try," is terrible. There are whiners, but there are also guys who gave it their all and didn't make it. And as long as WCS NA is filled with Korean pros, there are going to be more and more NA players who try, give it their all, and fail. And shitting on those players for quitting or saying "I don't know how to beat those Kespa players without moving to Korea and being on one of their teams" is a terrible habit the community has.
On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote: lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways.
On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote: lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways.
You just made your argument against yourself in that last sentence. The lack of underage foreign pros is a symptom of the overall problem. If a 22 year old Korean pro has 7 years of progaming experience under his belt, how is a 22 year old foreigner going to even begin to bridge that gap?
However, that's a false question to address because the answer will always be that it's impossible for the foreigner to bridge that gap. The better question is how can a 22 year old foreigner even get considered for a professional team when the professional teams can just sign underage Korean players? There's far more upside to signing underage Koreans compared to adult foreigners (will be less expensive, more potential years playing the game, more potential for coaching to pay off over the years, etc.)
EDIT: Another question to answer would be "how can we encourage more underage foreigners to play full time?" That's going to be much harder to answer.
On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote: lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways.
You just made your argument against yourself in that last sentence. The lack of underage foreign pros is a symptom of the overall problem. If a 22 year old Korean pro has 7 years of progaming experience under his belt, how is a 22 year old foreigner going to even begin to bridge that gap?
However, that's a false question to address because the answer will always be that it's impossible for the foreigner to bridge that gap. The better question is how can a 22 year old foreigner even get considered for a professional team when the professional teams can just sign underage Korean players? There's far more upside to signing underage Koreans compared to adult foreigners (will be less expensive, more potential years playing the game, more potential for coaching to pay off over the years, etc.)
EDIT: Another question to answer would be "how can we encourage more underage foreigners to play full time?" That's going to be much harder to answer.
Make more high school and colleges leagues with real reasons to play and good competition? Trick their parents? Its a good discussion to have about how to we get more players to take SC2 seriously at the amateur level. MLG isn't a reasonable entry level for those high school players. Its a good experience, but lower level events where they could cut their teeth would be better.
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote: The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
It's not slave labour if it's voluntary. Back in the day young challenger players would kill to be a b-teamer on a Kespa team. If the kids want to commit to working hard at what they love and can leave at any time I don't see an issue.
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining.
You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example).
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining.
You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example).
All right this is pointless now, your opinion is clear, Koreans players of all skill levels are perfect professionals that never whine and everyone else is a whiney bitch. If a player can't find a way to play 8-10 hours a day and pay for rent, he doesn't care enough and deserves to lose. And if they can't go to Korea to train, that's all their fault too.
On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote: The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining.
You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example).
All right this is pointless now, your opinion is clear, Koreans players of all skill levels are perfect professionals that never whine and everyone else is a whiney bitch. If a player can't find a way to play 8-10 hours a day and pay for rent, he doesn't care enough and deserves to lose. And if they can't go to Korea to train, that's all their fault too.
No, the point is that if you truly love the game (which any true 'professional' would) then you'd make it work. You do realize that half of the SC2 gaming houses at the beginning of the game were broke and occasionally had to ask from their own players to help fund the house? The amount of bitching that I see/hear from Western PROS that have a legitimate gaming house or have a real salary so that they don't have to worry about rent is unbelievable. All I ever hear is that they can't compete because of the fact that Koreans have a professional infrastructure blah blah blah.
You think that Korean pros move to Western gaming organizations just for shits and giggles? Lol. Fucking unbelievable. All I see is you wiping the asses of the Western SC2 scene. I don't mean to shit all over it, but it's so easy to do so because of how much whine comes from it, more than any other competitive community that I have ever been a part of.
Want a real world professional sports example of the dedication it takes?
If you are in the top 30 or so in professional tennis, you are pretty set. If you are a big name, you make millions of dollars of year. If you are below this line, you barely make more than I do at a government job, except you have no benefits, no retirement pension, expenses out of the wazoo, pretty much live out of your car etc.
Mind you, the only way to become a professional tennis player is literally to start at the age of like 5. You have to show promise, your parents have to support you the whole way, and pay for all the expenses that come with it. Then, you at a very young age have to decide instead of going to a regular school, you are basically going to drop out, go to an academy and then proceed to the minor leagues of professional tennis in the hopes that out of the literal thousands of aspiring players out there, you will make it to the top 30 in order to have a pretty good life style (that still isn't as good as lots of white collar jobs like computer engineers, doctors, top notch lawyers, etc.)
Oh, and mind you that you are at a severe disadvantage if you don't grow above 6 feet tall, if you don't have flexibility, etc. etc. And yet some short dude from Spain that is barely above 5'6 is top 5 in the world currently? You know how he got there? Certainly not on his physical talent.
So yeah, it's not just 'Starcraft' where you have to make big sacrifices and huge gambles. It's every fucking sport. If you are good enough and determined enough you will make it. If you don't, you are a bumb. Welcome to high risk high reward jobs. You think guys like Kobe, Lebron, the Manning Brothers, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Nadal, and virtually every other big name in sports didn't sacrifice a ton to get to where they are at? They lost their childhood/early adult years in order to get to where they are at because they had to bust their ass. So stop the bitching. Seriously. It's fucking annoying. If they can't handle it then just don't call yourself a professional gamer and go work a real job.
The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL.
Neither CatZ nor Drewbie are really professional players..CatZ has often said that his main aim is the running of Root, playing competitively is secondary to the well-being of his team, and does Drewbie even play competitively? I don't see real professional gamers such as Snute, Thorzain, SaSe, Grubby etc be lazy...
Yes, DeMusliM streams ALOT, but hey, he can still hold his own against mid-tier Koreans, and is probably better than some B-teamers, so he must be doing something right...
They don't want to 'ban' players from WCS America, they want a level playing field with WCS Korea. If you need to be physically present in Korea to play even the qualifiers for WCS Korea, why can you play WCS America from across the world?
WCS America is called Korean Code B for a reason, because weaker Koreans are getting as much prize money and recognition as top Koreans. It is basically rewarding those Koreans who took the easy way out. So a player like HerO, no offence, can earn 5 times as much as an arguably better player like PartinG or Life, for example. What CatZ wanted was a residency requirement or something of the sort, whereby players would actually have to commit and sacrifice something. It doesn't bar anyone from playing in America, it just needs them to move there or something. His dream was to have an 'eSports city' in North America, a place where you would have 2 or 3 actual team houses (not like the EG Lair which has two players and no coach)...Koreans, Americans, whoever they are. What's so wrong about wanting to at least TRY to emulate what there is in Korea, in America, and start building a culture of eSports outside of Korea?
Riot are actually doing it best, because there is a healthy eSports structure in every continent, from NA, SA, EU, Taiwan, China, Korea, SEA....
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL.
Neither CatZ nor Drewbie are really professional players..CatZ has often said that his main aim is the running of Root, playing competitively is secondary to the well-being of his team, and does Drewbie even play competitively? I don't see real professional gamers such as Snute, Thorzain, SaSe, Grubby etc be lazy...
Yes, DeMusliM streams ALOT, but hey, he can still hold his own against mid-tier Koreans, and is probably better than some B-teamers, so he must be doing something right...
They don't want to 'ban' players from WCS America, they want a level playing field with WCS Korea. If you need to be physically present in Korea to play even the qualifiers for WCS Korea, why can you play WCS America from across the world?
WCS America is called Korean Code B for a reason, because weaker Koreans are getting as much prize money and recognition as top Koreans. It is basically rewarding those Koreans who took the easy way out. So a player like HerO, no offence, can earn 5 times as much as an arguably better player like PartinG or Life, for example. What CatZ wanted was a residency requirement or something of the sort, whereby players would actually have to commit and sacrifice something. It doesn't bar anyone from playing in America, it just needs them to move there or something. His dream was to have an 'eSports city' in North America, a place where you would have 2 or 3 actual team houses (not like the EG Lair which has two players and no coach)...Koreans, Americans, whoever they are. What's so wrong about wanting to at least TRY to emulate what there is in Korea, in America, and start building a culture of eSports outside of Korea?
Riot are actually doing it best, because there is a healthy eSports structure in every continent, from NA, SA, EU, Taiwan, China, Korea, SEA....
Adressing a few points here. The infrastructure does work in Korea (being offline) because Korea is relatively small and every player can participate in the offline qualifiers. Blizzard wants to move towards that, but it will increase costs for players and teams as America is a large.
Koreans take the 'easy way out' because somehow people believe that Europe or North America do deserve the same price pool as Korea which is stupid, because the competition there is worlds ahead of EU and NA. I dare to say, higher pricepool in Korea would not change as much, because if you have 0% chance of winning money there now, you will have 0% chance of winning money there if there's more price money, yet I feel like calling them out for choosing NA is stupid and lacks respect. If it were to be that KR>NA>EU I dare to say, every NA player would choose EU. Its just a smart choice for a competitive professional to choose the server in which he most likely wins most money.
Other than that, I can only say that I feel that NA players need to step up their game. SeleCt came back from inactivity and made deep runs, how is that possible without a lot of training? Polt lives in america, is no full-time pro because he studies and still manages to win an MLG against the best? You can stay and c an be good even with practice in NA and you even have the chance to get the good practice on the KR server (at least for some regions of NA)
On July 08 2013 13:54 Hikari wrote: The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there.
Correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't Polt already close to the top in the first place? But yeah, not going to argue against the merits of hard work.
was watching proleague today and sometimes when they talk in Korean its so fast I can't keep up reading subtitles. I had an idea maybe Koreans think faster because their language consists of fewer and shorter words lol?
On July 08 2013 19:46 Cheerio wrote: was watching proleague today and sometimes when they talk in Korean its so fast I can't keep up reading subtitles. I had an idea maybe Koreans think faster because their language consists of fewer and shorter words lol?
On July 08 2013 13:54 Hikari wrote: The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there.
Correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't Polt already close to the top in the first place? But yeah, not going to argue against the merits of hard work.
You are correct that Polt was very good before MLG and had previously won a GSL. It doesn't make his win less impressive, but he was very good already due to playing in Korea prior to his time in the US.
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
a NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true.
Same story as Tom Brady.
If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . .
Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have."
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote: [quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote: [quote] Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
a NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true.
Same story as Tom Brady.
If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . .
Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have."
What do you know about the mindset of pro athletes?
In fact a recent study from 2012 showed that the pressure to succeed among pro athletes leads to every second one frequently feeling burned out, every third one having sleep disorders and every fifth one having recurrent depressions. There was no relation to the amount of training or the sport practiced. Athletes with a liability to perfectionism were more likely to suffer psychologically.
And two of the main reasons identified were: - short career spans - insecure job situation
So, yes, it´s not about some kiddy-commercial-ideology of "striving to be the best" or "not working hard enough", it´s about the infrastructure. And that´s why Koreans in financially sound teams have a significant advantage over players who aren´t. But lets ignore harsh reality and dream of greatness against all odds...
On July 08 2013 21:18 Otolia wrote: Are we conveniently dismissing the fact that a talented EU player won major tournaments ? And I doubt he made a lot of sacrifices ...
Yes, we're dismissing it because it's irrelevant.
On July 07 2013 09:26 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[snip]
And sure, people love to bring up Polt and Stephano etc, but you must not forget that there will always be outliers, there will always be people who have the talent to require less practice and still succeed. They're not the rule, they're the exception. If you're going to bring up Polt and Stephano as examples of people who don't need Korean training facilities, why not also bring up NesTea and DongRaeGu, two of the most iconic Zergs of Wings of Liberty, both of which admitted multiple times that they don't like practicing and don't practice very much? Why not also bring up Stork, widely considered one of the best BW players of all time (and rightfully so), who has also stated that he practices very little and also plays other games? They're just outliers, not remotely representative of the average player.
Such players are maybe a handful, at most a dozen in a game's lifespan...
Look at the best players, not just top players but the very best in the world. Not only are they talented, but they also work their fucking ass off. Look at Mvp and TaeJa, and how they trained to the point of developing wrist injuries. Hell, look at FlaSh, Jaedong and Bisu, the three of them practiced like none other which is why each of them was able to enjoy a period of dominance and why they're considered some of the best players to have ever touched Brood War. Look at Moon, widely considered to be the best WC3 player of all time, who at one point would only sleep in between games...
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote: Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote: Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote: Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless.
On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote: Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless.
That IS the point of the story. He was doomed to fail, he couldn't even throw the ring into the fireplace at the Shire, but he still tried. The central message of Lord of the Rings is walking the right path, even if you don't know if you'll succeed.
When the army attacked the Black Gate, they did it just to give Frodo a chance of success. If you only do things you know you can 100% achieve, what's even the point of living? You might as well be a chicken in a pen.
On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote: Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless.
That IS the point of the story. He was doomed to fail, he couldn't even throw the ring into the fireplace at the Shire, but he still tried. The central message of Lord of the Rings is walking the right path, even if you don't know if you'll succeed.
When the army attacked the Black Gate, they did it just to give Frodo a chance of success. If you only do things you know you can 100% achieve, what's even the point of living? You might as well be a chicken in a pen.
All right, this whole discussion has gone a special kind of weird now that we are using the Lord of the Rings as reference. But I’ll bite. Frodo didn’t do it alone and would have failed alone. There is this whole other character, Sam, that becomes the real hero of the story. Also, there are all those other characters that help along the way as well.
And that is the point of this thread, that the practice on your own isn’t enough. Having a group of players around you that can help you practice, focus and keep at it is a critical part of winning. Right now, it is really challenging to create that environment in NA(though Root is making a stab at it). The Kespa players have a leg up when it comes to their ability to practice with great players, because the system is already in place for them. It wouldn’t a problem if WCS NA wasn’t also filled with those same Kepsa players.
That is the point of all of this, that Root is making a stab at it, but what if it takes longer to get to the level of the Kespa players and qualify for WCS NA? What if they can’t find a sponsor fast enough to justify the house? These are big risks and while they are that big, we are only going to see a small group of people take them.
P.S. Clearly I am not talking about established players on NA teams that are already very good and qualified for WCS, like Demuslim. Those players are more that capable of taking on the Kespa B-teamers. It is new players trying to make their name that are likely to be stifled by the influx of Kespa pros. Random GM player on the NA ladder that is trying to make it may not have the ability practice on that level or for the amount of time necessary.
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
The rhetoric of "hard work always pay" is strongly implanted nowadays. I would attribute that to the hollywood-like stories where the hero always prevails in a manicheist way.
Truth is, this whole argument looks funny if you just see it from a sociological point of view. Socio-economical vectors are vastly superior to hard work and dedication in the macro scale. And right now we are talking about trans-national socio-economical situations. That's how void this argument has become.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
It's a nicely created "utopian idea" for the masses and way to many seem to actually believe in it.
No, just because you drop out of school and begin to play 14h a day you may still won't become a progamer, you need talent... Just look at the people in your divisions especially in the a bit lower (Master) ones... Most have kinda similar amount of games but then there are some with only 20 to 40% of the average games played than all the others hanging in there with massive bonus pools because they just don't play enough... "Hard work and dedication?", Nah, they are just smarter/faster/whatever than your average dude and maybe could become truely good but aren't willing to commit/they don't like the game that much/they got better things to do/whatever..
It's the same in Dota 2... While in general the skill-levels of people with about ~1000 games are rather close, sometimes you get guys with even more games that don't even understand basic concepts while others after 500 games have no issues to play with guys with 3-4 times their experience. Yeah, they will lack some experience in certain situations or on certain heroes, but they make up for it by just having learnt extremly fast which stuff is actually really important.
"Hard work" + "Talent" lets people become pros, "hard work" + "more hard work" is a waste of time. At least if the sport/field you try to get "pro" in actually has many people that try to climb to the top.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote: Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky.
If i was consistently top gm on the EU ladder and i could beat top EU players consistently in customs game and i was a lot younger then usually you would get noticed. For example, Mouzmarine is a 15/16 year old german kid who was noticed because of his age and skill. He got sponsorship that way.
You seem to be referring to anybody who wants to be a progamer should go and move to korea. There are certain minimum levels of skill that you should be at before you move to korea. For example, you should be top GM at NA or EU because if you aren't even top GM there and beating other top players you don't want to move to korea. That's pretty much an obvious point.
Normally the route for wannabe foreigner progamers would be.
Get noticed on the scene while practicing hard...owning the NA or EU ladder. Do interviews that will come due to being good on ladder. Then if you are showing promise then sponsorships will appear. But if you are talking about some guy who is rank mid masters thinking about going to korea then that's not going to happen. You need minimum levels of skill before you think of being a progamer. A bronze leaguer should never move to korea.
There is a difference between sports though. In tennis, pushy parents will bankroll their kids and try to push them towards their dream whether they show talent or not. In sc2, your parents most likely wont bankroll you because sc2 is a game and esports is just an emerging sport. So you really have to show your worth by doing ladder. Luckily starcraft 2 is much more accessible than many real sports because all you need is a computer (which most people have nowadays) and a copy of sc2 and a lot of time to spend on playing and analysing games.
Also, a lot of top foreigner players such as stephano, naniwa, demuslim etc started young..like 15 etc by playing warcraft 3 (i used to play that game also) and they got noticed that way. Then they transitioned to starcraft 2 and it turned out that stephano really was creative and was our first top performing foreigner. But all of them worked hard to get where they are from a young age.
Also you are right about koreans not being perfect. Yes it makes sense that when koreans say they practice 14 hours a day that they also include the time spent doing other stuff like watching tv shows etc. So what you are saying is that koreans aren't as hardworking as we think they are and actually their determination rather than their hard work is what makes them better than foreigners. I mean if koreans are bragging about 12 hour days in which several hours of that is just messing around and watching tv shows then it's most likely just a ploy to show off to other people or to appear hardworking to their sponsoring team. I mean if i was in a korean teamhouse then yes i would also say i play 14 hours a day because if you don't say that you will look like a lazy person. So yeah there could be huge bias there and maybe they are doing it to put the fear into foreigners.
I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly?
Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
[quote]
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote: This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
a NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true.
Same story as Tom Brady.
If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . .
Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have."
What do you know about the mindset of pro athletes?
In fact a recent study from 2012 showed that the pressure to succeed among pro athletes leads to every second one frequently feeling burned out, every third one having sleep disorders and every fifth one having recurrent depressions. There was no relation to the amount of training or the sport practiced. Athletes with a liability to perfectionism were more likely to suffer psychologically.
And two of the main reasons identified were: - short career spans - insecure job situation
So, yes, it´s not about some kiddy-commercial-ideology of "striving to be the best" or "not working hard enough", it´s about the infrastructure. And that´s why Koreans in financially sound teams have a significant advantage over players who aren´t. But lets ignore harsh reality and dream of greatness against all odds...
Then how is it some people despite a poor or meager upbringing are able to get to the top of their sport? What? I thought all it took was a great infrastructure and coaching! That's all it takes right? No; once you reach a certain point, everyone is talented. The only real difference is the amount of determination and work you put in. If you look at the top athletes vs other elite athletes in their respective sport, the difference is absolutely minuscule. The only difference at that level is mentality.
And you want to know something about sports psychology? Elite athletes have confidence that borders on arrogance. If you walk in with the defeatist attitude that so many non-Korean pros do, you're gonna lose, period.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser.
If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it.
In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser.
If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it.
In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
Well I would say that you don't have to read it if you don't want to. I would also point out that few people in this thread are professional players and the few that are have said that calling them whiners is a bit harsh, including MouzIllusion. A lot of the players who "whine", like MiniGun, are mostly expressing frustration that they can't train as hard as they would like because they have to pay the bills too. That is just reality.
Well the discussion moved beyond that and talked about setting up gaming houses and training in NA, the recruiting differences between the two countries and legal issues with signing underage players and how to get players to play full time. The discussion doesn't have to be about how it is impossible, but how players could do it and still pay the rent.
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky.
cArn was quite good..Coach Lee asked him to join TSL but back then he was on eSahara (who had a deal to host their players at the Project Supreme house), so he couldn't join. The problem was that even though he was as good as the B-teamers on ESF teams, they wouldn't recruit him...why would they recruit someone who didn't speak fluent Korean, when they just could go for a Korean amateur from one of the clans which feed directly into the teams? Unless Korean teams are paid to host foreigners, as was the case with all foreigners (with the exception of LastShadow, MajOr and Fenix), they won't have them.
Also most foreigners in team houses said that social interaction was rare because of the communication problem...they just laddered, and did not benefit from coaching; Sometimes other players would help through replays or some tips but you obviously cannot discuss the way Koreans do with each other.
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly?
Discipline (coaches!), and the fact that it is more of a career opportunity in Korea than in the West (explains the hundreds of pro gamers in Korea as opposed to the few real pro gamers in the West)
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment.
Some pro gamers are good because they are talented, some are good because they practice a lot. Some are godlike because they are both. Koreans are more in a position to practice harder, and to get better practice.
superstartran, I suppose you don´t realize the radicality and ruthlessness of your "arguments". I assume that is because you want to make an impression, while you have never actually dealt with life´s hardships yourself. If that is too much assuming on my side, I´m sorry. But you have to realize, if all people who actually make decisions and carry responsibility used your "arguments", there would have never been an Englightenment, never been a constitutional democracy, never been reform towards equality and protection of the weak. Because as long as one guy manages, the rest has to keep working harder. It is a short-sighted, naive, and if put into practice, a disastrous view that thankfully has been overcome by great and compassionate minds. Sadly it is still promoted.
I think that there is the possibility a foreigner can have the same potential/raw skill as a Korean, but the difference comes in the ability to harness that and improve to a truly world-class level from the strong base. This doesn't just mean mechanically, but mentally as well. Mindset, and strategy are what make the very best players, in my opinion, and that extra edge is what I think is so often lacking.
On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote: All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser.
If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it.
In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
We're discussing what makes Korean players better. You've voiced your opinion, often insulting those in this thread, that it's because foreigners have a 'loser mentality'. Fair enough, some people agreed with you, some people disagreed with you. Everyone is now aware of your opinion, because you've repeated it in a dozen posts with nothing new to add. We're sick of seeing it.
Also, no one in this thread is crying or whining, no one here is a professional gamer; we're just expressing opinions. So chill out.
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky.
cArn was quite good..Coach Lee asked him to join TSL but back then he was on eSahara (who had a deal to host their players at the Project Supreme house), so he couldn't join. The problem was that even though he was as good as the B-teamers on ESF teams, they wouldn't recruit him...why would they recruit someone who didn't speak fluent Korean, when they just could go for a Korean amateur from one of the clans which feed directly into the teams? Unless Korean teams are paid to host foreigners, as was the case with all foreigners (with the exception of LastShadow, MajOr and Fenix), they won't have them.
Also most foreigners in team houses said that social interaction was rare because of the communication problem...they just laddered, and did not benefit from coaching; Sometimes other players would help through replays or some tips but you obviously cannot discuss the way Koreans do with each other.
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly?
Discipline (coaches!), and the fact that it is more of a career opportunity in Korea than in the West (explains the hundreds of pro gamers in Korea as opposed to the few real pro gamers in the West)
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote: Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment.
Some pro gamers are good because they are talented, some are good because they practice a lot. Some are godlike because they are both. Koreans are more in a position to practice harder, and to get better practice.
I don't understand what your point is in the first paragraph. Why would a korean team recruit a foreigner who isn't as good as koreans players who are teamless?
"cArn was announced to have been dropped from eSahara on 11 January 2012 due to 'lack of motivation' in regards to his refusal to attend the GSL qualifiers, believing that his skill level was not sufficient to participate.[6]"
So basically cArn was kicked out of esahara because he refused to get real life experience at sc2 tournament qualifiers. Is that really the mindset of a determined progamer? I don't think anybody would believe for a minute this to be the case.
If you are going to Korea then learn Korean. Eastern europeans don't go to america to play tennis and assume everybody in America has to speak polish/russian/serbian to accomodate their needs. They realise they are going to America for a while and they need to start learning english. If you are a dedicated individual then you need to learn the lingo. I've been to other countries and learnt their lingo because it helps you to communicate. If you want to go to Korea to improve as a player then learn Korean. I wanted to go to France so i studied french and learnt the language because i wanted to communicate with the french in their native tongue. Don't expect to go to Korea and speak english. I won't call it laziness but it's a lack of planning and perhap naivety. I was based in hong kong for a while and i learnt cantonese. After a while i could communicate well with the natives.
i'll quote superstartran
"In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up. "
There are top sporting superstars who are from very very poor backgrounds (see brazilian footballers etc) yet they were determined and worked hard and got noticed.
Also i'll leave a nice quote for you guys that really sums up what i'm saying. "It's not always a matter of how smart or talented you are (although it helps ^_^), sometimes it's a matter of how badly you're willing to fight for it."
btw dunno if you noticed but in the west there are plenty of progamers for example.
Fatality/thresh and other fps progamers that were esports pioneers.
I think there are hundreds of progamers playing fps and other games like wow/lol etc in the western world.
Nobody is arguing about korea being the best place to improve.
But the thing is if you willing to fight for a cause then you need to show determination. Take Naniwa for example. He uprooted and moved to korea because he loves sc2.
Take artosis and tasteless. They played sc2 and decided to move to korea and be sc2 commentators and work for gomtv. They didn't know any korean but now they do and yes they are both americans. It goes to show how a large dose or determination and hard work can do wonders. They both realise they can't live in Korea and expect others to know English. They learn korean and love it. Of course it's not for everybody. Some americans can't travel to another state let alone another country due to culture shock so if they are talented and want to come to korea and then realise it's not for them then it's fine. At least they tried.
If another american wants to improve and stays in the states that's fine as well. But as long as you stop making dumb excuses about why you aren't as good as koreans.
Also i'd like to add that WCS america isn't just for american residents. They just named it poorly. It should've been called WCS tournament qualifier 1 rather than wcs america. Countries such as china, taiwan, austrailia etc don't have any WCS qualifiers so they need to go to WCS america.
^ Those examples do nothing but undermine your point. If anything Fatal1ty was the guy who whenever the competition got too hot, he would just retire from that game and go play another one that had fewer pro players, winning the money that was being pumped into that respective game. He was good, and at some point he was the best, but people who don't know the actual story always seem to grossly overrate his merit.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: I don't understand what your point is in the first paragraph. Why would a korean team recruit a foreigner who isn't as good as koreans players who are teamless?
I said he was as good as the Korean B-teamers on the team, that often means that he was better than the amateur players not on a team, yet 9 times out of 10 they'd still go for Koreans.
"cArn was announced to have been dropped from eSahara on 11 January 2012 due to 'lack of motivation' in regards to his refusal to attend the GSL qualifiers, believing that his skill level was not sufficient to participate.[6]"
So basically cArn was kicked out of esahara because he refused to get real life experience at sc2 tournament qualifiers. Is that really the mindset of a determined progamer? I don't think anybody would believe for a minute this to be the case.
Read the wording...it's the reason eSahara said they dropped him, there's two sides to a story. He participated in a large number of GSL qualifiers, but by that time, he had been kicked out from the GOM House because there was no space and the American FXO team was making its way to play in the GSTL so they were a priority over him and he was asked to leave...he had just been travelling to loads of tournaments in France and apparently the Philippines so for once he decided to skip the qualifiers because he felt he wasn't ready...many pro gamers do this...
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: If you are going to Korea then learn Korean. Eastern europeans don't go to america to play tennis and assume everybody in America has to speak polish/russian/serbian to accomodate their needs. They realise they are going to America for a while and they need to start learning english. If you are a dedicated individual then you need to learn the lingo. I've been to other countries and learnt their lingo because it helps you to communicate. If you want to go to Korea to improve as a player then learn Korean. I wanted to go to France so i studied french and learnt the language because i wanted to communicate with the french in their native tongue. Don't expect to go to Korea and speak english. I won't call it laziness but it's a lack of planning and perhap naivety. I was based in hong kong for a while and i learnt cantonese. After a while i could communicate well with the natives.
He tried hard to learn Korean, he just wasn't fluent enough to communicate, maybe he couldn't afford classes? Some people are better than others in languages. Koreans seem to find it hard to learn English, it's not unreasonable to guess that French-Moroccans find it hard to become fluent in Korean. I'm guessing you need at least a few years to get fluent in a language and speaking it is even harder than understanding it. Perhaps you're just better than most at languages, other people find it harder. I spent five years studying French, and I was really good at it in school, both written, and in orals, but I was a mumbling mess when I went to Paris on holiday, not to mention that it's hard to understand a French guy speaking French haha they talk so fast.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: i'll quote superstartran
"In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up. "
There are top sporting superstars who are from very very poor backgrounds (see brazilian footballers etc) yet they were determined and worked hard and got noticed.
I'm sorry but again I think the comparison is very short-sighted. For one, Brazil has a massive football culture. Secondly, professional football teams scout poorer areas because good players from Brazil are much, much cheaper (and more common), than good players from England, or Italy, for example. Not only do they ask for less salaries, but they also tend to be more physically fit. I don't come from a rich country, at all, our best football teams are a mixture of semi-pro and pro...yet there are SO many players from Brazil, Nigeria, Eastern Europe, Africa etc in the league...for the players, they still get better opportunities than in their country of origin, and can use it as a stepping stone into other European teams, and the local teams love getting players from poorer regions because it's a lot of skill for your buck lol.
The risk is completely different from eSports to Tennis/football etc. Until eSports is more stable (and that includes the length of the lifetime of eSport titles) it's ridiculously hard. eSports culture needs to be strengthened in the West, and that is what people like TB, CatZ and the entire panel at the Valencia eSports Congress have identified as being the goal we should be working towards.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: btw dunno if you noticed but in the west there are plenty of progamers for example.
Fatality/thresh and other fps progamers that were esports pioneers.
I think there are hundreds of progamers playing fps and other games like wow/lol etc in the western world.
WoW doesn't have progamers, WoW just has people making videos on Youtube and making money off them (now that competitive WoW as it was a couple of years back died off at least)
LoL has pro gamers everywhere because of the structure employed by Riot. They have leagues EVERYWHERE, from Brazil to frikkin Vietnam. 'Amateur' Chinese and Koreans teams are better than most pro American teams in LoL, but Riot wanted it to be viable everywhere, and thus LoL is the most successful eSport ever.
Most FPS 'pro gamers', aren't full time, their salaries are very low if they have any, with notable exceptions like NiP or Na'Vi maybe.
Console FPS players in America are sometimes very well paid because of how big games like CoD and Halo are, but there isn't much of an eSport structure around Console FPS games, especially outside the US.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: I don't understand what your point is in the first paragraph. Why would a korean team recruit a foreigner who isn't as good as koreans players who are teamless?
I said he was as good as the Korean B-teamers on the team, that often means that he was better than the amateur players not on a team, yet 9 times out of 10 they'd still go for Koreans.
"cArn was announced to have been dropped from eSahara on 11 January 2012 due to 'lack of motivation' in regards to his refusal to attend the GSL qualifiers, believing that his skill level was not sufficient to participate.[6]"
So basically cArn was kicked out of esahara because he refused to get real life experience at sc2 tournament qualifiers. Is that really the mindset of a determined progamer? I don't think anybody would believe for a minute this to be the case.
Read the wording...it's the reason eSahara said they dropped him, there's two sides to a story. He participated in a large number of GSL qualifiers, but by that time, he had been kicked out from the GOM House because there was no space and the American FXO team was making its way to play in the GSTL so they were a priority over him and he was asked to leave...he had just been travelling to loads of tournaments in France and apparently the Philippines so for once he decided to skip the qualifiers because he felt he wasn't ready...many pro gamers do this...
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: If you are going to Korea then learn Korean. Eastern europeans don't go to america to play tennis and assume everybody in America has to speak polish/russian/serbian to accomodate their needs. They realise they are going to America for a while and they need to start learning english. If you are a dedicated individual then you need to learn the lingo. I've been to other countries and learnt their lingo because it helps you to communicate. If you want to go to Korea to improve as a player then learn Korean. I wanted to go to France so i studied french and learnt the language because i wanted to communicate with the french in their native tongue. Don't expect to go to Korea and speak english. I won't call it laziness but it's a lack of planning and perhap naivety. I was based in hong kong for a while and i learnt cantonese. After a while i could communicate well with the natives.
He tried hard to learn Korean, he just wasn't fluent enough to communicate, maybe he couldn't afford classes? Some people are better than others in languages. Koreans seem to find it hard to learn English, it's not unreasonable to guess that French-Moroccans find it hard to become fluent in Korean. I'm guessing you need at least a few years to get fluent in a language and speaking it is even harder than understanding it. Perhaps you're just better than most at languages, other people find it harder. I spent five years studying French, and I was really good at it in school, both written, and in orals, but I was a mumbling mess when I went to Paris on holiday, not to mention that it's hard to understand a French guy speaking French haha they talk so fast.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: i'll quote superstartran
"In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up. "
There are top sporting superstars who are from very very poor backgrounds (see brazilian footballers etc) yet they were determined and worked hard and got noticed.
I'm sorry but again I think the comparison is very short-sighted. For one, Brazil has a massive football culture. Secondly, professional football teams scout poorer areas because good players from Brazil are much, much cheaper (and more common), than good players from England, or Italy, for example. Not only do they ask for less salaries, but they also tend to be more physically fit. I don't come from a rich country, at all, our best football teams are a mixture of semi-pro and pro...yet there are SO many players from Brazil, Nigeria, Eastern Europe, Africa etc in the league...for the players, they still get better opportunities than in their country of origin, and can use it as a stepping stone into other European teams, and the local teams love getting players from poorer regions because it's a lot of skill for your buck lol.
The risk is completely different from eSports to Tennis/football etc. Until eSports is more stable (and that includes the length of the lifetime of eSport titles) it's ridiculously hard. eSports culture needs to be strengthened in the West, and that is what people like TB, CatZ and the entire panel at the Valencia eSports Congress have identified as being the goal we should be working towards.
On July 09 2013 04:56 Xercen wrote: btw dunno if you noticed but in the west there are plenty of progamers for example.
Fatality/thresh and other fps progamers that were esports pioneers.
I think there are hundreds of progamers playing fps and other games like wow/lol etc in the western world.
WoW doesn't have progamers, WoW just has people making videos on Youtube and making money off them (now that competitive WoW as it was a couple of years back died off at least)
LoL has pro gamers everywhere because of the structure employed by Riot. They have leagues EVERYWHERE, from Brazil to frikkin Vietnam. 'Amateur' Chinese and Koreans teams are better than most pro American teams in LoL, but Riot wanted it to be viable everywhere, and thus LoL is the most successful eSport ever.
Most FPS 'pro gamers', aren't full time, their salaries are very low if they have any, with notable exceptions like NiP or Na'Vi maybe.
Console FPS players in America are sometimes very well paid because of how big games like CoD and Halo are, but there isn't much of an eSport structure around Console FPS games, especially outside the US.
I think we r missing the point it seems cArn was dropped by gom because they would have preferred another native player ahead of him. Unlucky for him. Life is not fair. Sure you have great natural talented players like stephano on one hand who can thrive without a team environment and without a coach and you have cArn who played better with it but unfortunately gom screwed him over.
I respect cArn for making a go of things. But shit happens in sports.
You can use a smartphone translator to talk to people in korea if a person wasn't fluent. Or use google translator to convert english to korean and show them on yr phone. It shouldn't take that long to learn the words for starcraft 2 units and build orders etc. If he still isn't confident at languages then you can't blame korea and koreans. It's just unfortunately that learning a language is a barrier and he was unable to do it well.
Also, i don't know why americans/europeans think korean is a hard language to learn. yes there are differences in tone etc but it's just a language. Even if the progamer failed to learn the language at least that person tried. It's better to learn the language but not a requirement.
I don't know what you know about football but scouts in brazil try to find good talent because there are good players there.
you said "Secondly, professional football teams scout poorer areas because good players from Brazil are much, much cheaper (and more common), than good players from England, or Italy, for example."
If somebody found another pele from brazil he would be very expensive. Look at neymar. He was recently sold to barcalona for 49 million pounds. Football clubs don't scout in brazil to save pennies. They scout there to find top players they will pay big money for to bring to their clubs. Football is the biggest sport globally worth billions of pounds. Money is no object. The fifa world cup is watched by billions worldwide....no other sport comes close to football.
I think your view is shortsighted. You are saying that esports has to have as much money as a real sport for people to bother taking risks and invest their lives into it. Sorry but people need to take that risk because they love the sport. For example, Catz, could have gotten a normal 9-5 job but instead he made a teamhouse and does fundraisers to raise the profile of sc2 and esports. If people like catz weren't around because they wanted more money and no risk then esports would be dead in the water.
That's why we need people to step up their game and put in maximum effort and determination and if they really want to be a progamer then go for it. If you have the skill and the right mindset you will go far. If you always make excuses about koreans having better this and that then you better forget about being a progamer and just go to university. But even university in america is way more expensive than in europe. So even going to university is a risk since most students are in debt due to student loans.
You keep on comparing the risk of esports to tennis and NFL etc. You can't wait for esports to have that same level of infrastructure before having american sc2 progamers because by that time esports would be dead. That's why we need pioneers like stephano and naniwa to do the dirty work and take those risks and get esports on the way to becoming a sport even if it takes years after they have retired.
yeah i agree with what u said about lol. blizzard are trying to give the same structure to sc2 by having these wcs tournaments.
btw a good cheap way to improve as a player would be to watch proleague..,..buy the cheap subscription and you will have access to the top sc2 player's build orders etc.
You are the definition of precocious. Please stop.
Claiming people are doing it wrong in a field you have no experience in is bad form at best, but doing so with such a sense of entitlement, boasting uninformed opinions and platitudes is insolent. I know there is a urge to incite in the youth, but following foolishness through does not make one right, nor distinguished and definitely not a great debater. So please, stop.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I think we r missing the point it seems cArn was dropped by gom because they would have preferred another native player ahead of him. Unlucky for him. Life is not fair. Sure you have great natural talented players like stephano on one hand who can thrive without a team environment and without a coach and you have cArn who played better with it but unfortunately gom screwed him over.
GOM dropped him because FXO (the American team with qxc, slog etc) was moving in the GOM House, and since they were going to participate in GSTL, whilst he was just a Code B player, they were the priority.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: You can use a smartphone translator to talk to people in korea if a person wasn't fluent. Or use google translator to convert english to korean and show them on yr phone. It shouldn't take that long to learn the words for starcraft 2 units and build orders etc. If he still isn't confident at languages then you can't blame korea and koreans. It's just unfortunately that learning a language is a barrier and he was unable to do it well.
Also, i don't know why americans/europeans think korean is a hard language to learn. yes there are differences in tone etc but it's just a language. Even if the progamer failed to learn the language at least that person tried. It's better to learn the language but not a requirement.
Out of all the Western eSport personalities in Korea, the only two people I know who are fluent in Korean are Wolf and LastShadow. As far as I know, Khaldor, Tasteless and Artosis have been going to classes, but are not fluent. As I said, unless you're a super smart genius with a sponge for a brain (or unless you're really young), becoming fluent in a language takes a long time, at least a few years. Fluent means being able to talk and write in a language with ease, almost as good as you are with your native tongue. It is not that easy to achieve unless you start learning it from when you're young. I'm not blaming Korea or Koreans, I'm saying that the language barrier is a problem which is not easily circumvented. I applaud you if you managed to become fluent in French and Chinese in a matter of weeks, but normal people are not that lucky or smart.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I don't know what you know about football but scouts in brazil try to find good talent because there are good players there.
Of course, as I said, Brazil has a massive football culture, obviously there will be better football players in Brazil, compared to the US, or even other European countries where kids tend to prefer watching it than playing it. As you know, Brazil has some very poor areas, where amateur football is still extremely popular. I know for a fact that Maltese football clubs buy Brazilian and Nigerian amateurs, pay very little in terms of salary like 300-500 euros a month or even less, but that tiny salary is still much better than anything they'd ever get in Brazil/Nigeria. On the other hand, breeding a local player to be as good as them would be much more expensive. So you can't really compare Americans moving to Korea to play a video-game, with players from Eastern Europe/Africa/South America moving to much richer countries simply because they always have a better opportunity to make money when they move to a richer country, even if they don't become a professional tennis player or whatever, they can cook tacos and still make more money than they'd get in their hometown.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: you said "Secondly, professional football teams scout poorer areas because good players from Brazil are much, much cheaper (and more common), than good players from England, or Italy, for example."
If somebody found another pele from brazil he would be very expensive. Look at neymar. He was recently sold to barcalona for 49 million pounds. Football clubs don't scout in brazil to save pennies. They scout there to find top players they will pay big money for to bring to their clubs. Football is the biggest sport globally worth billions of pounds. Money is no object. The fifa world cup is watched by billions worldwide....no other sport comes close to football.
You're talking about massively famous super-stars -.- I thought we were talking about skilled players who need to be trained/developed -.- Before they get famous, they're cheap. I'm not talking about players who get picked up by the top Brazilian clubs, and then get bought by European teams...
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I think your view is shortsighted. You are saying that esports has to have as much money as a real sport for people to bother taking risks and invest their lives into it. Sorry but people need to take that risk because they love the sport. For example, Catz, could have gotten a normal 9-5 job but instead he made a teamhouse and does fundraisers to raise the profile of sc2 and esports. If people like catz weren't around because they wanted more money and no risk then esports would be dead in the water.
No, it doesn't have to have as much money, but there has to be a prospect to be able to have a livelihood. For the vast majority of people who don't have the support of a top organisation, it is not possible to move to Korea when they're young, pay for rent etc whilst practicing SC2 full time...
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: That's why we need people to step up their game and put in maximum effort and determination and if they really want to be a progamer then go for it. If you have the skill and the right mindset you will go far. If you always make excuses about koreans having better this and that then you better forget about being a progamer and just go to university. But even university in america is way more expensive than in europe. So even going to university is a risk since most students are in debt due to student loans.
That's exactly what most pro gamers in the West do...they do their best, and some are definitely better than mid-tier Koreans...but no one can deny that the Korean practice environment is better. The argument here is why can't people work at making such an environment available also in other regions of the world...that's how you grow eSports, not by sending youngsters to Korea.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: You keep on comparing the risk of esports to tennis and NFL etc. You can't wait for esports to have that same level of infrastructure before having american sc2 progamers because by that time esports would be dead. That's why we need pioneers like stephano and naniwa to do the dirty work and take those risks and get esports on the way to becoming a sport even if it takes years after they have retired.
You brought up the comparison with sports, I was just rebutting your arguments, because I don't they're applicable in this instance. What dirty work would Stephano and NaNiwa do? Sending foreigners to Korea does not make eSport more globally recognised. You mentioned GRRRR and ElkY yourself, that was a decade ago...how did their stay in Korea improve eSports in the West? It improved the recognition of the existence of the Brood War community in the West, but it did not improve eSports at all. You need to think long term, and even if HuK won a GSL, you think that suddenly Canada will rise and become a second Korea? No, not at all. You start by having domestic leagues, and clans, then perhaps you get a semi-professional team with the best Canadian players, so on and so forth.
On July 04 2013 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote: The whole thing becomes even more convoluted when tournaments that ARE region locked occur like Shoutcraft America and people complain that the quality of matches is poor.
It's like what? The same people that argue that Koreans should be omitted from competing then turn around and complain that an all foreigner tournament isn't fun to watch?
What it comes down to is that people want to watch Foreigners beat Koreans but they don't like watching them lose to Koreans, so we get mixed reactions that are fickle in nature to begin with. That's my observation anyway, but I agree with your overall statement.
Having Koreans compete isn't something fundamentally unfair, the best foreigners will still compete.
The irony being that the vast majority of viewers and observers couldn't tell the difference between Life and Goswer if they were viewing a barcode vs barcode replay.
I really want to make a point about the amount of practice. You can talk about infrastructure all you want but the number of time I have seen a top Korean vs top foreigner where the Korean was much much better at spending their resources and had much higher apm. There is nothing else behind those numbers than pure mechanics and you don't get those from having "slave practice partners" and "great infrastructure". These will give you a tactical advantage, and while this might just be the most important factors, the numbers we have prove that the Koreans simply practice harder. Until top foreigners can prove that they are practicing as hard as the top Koreans I'm not even gonna bother talking how the infrastructure influences as that is much more abstract and harder to measure.
You could say that the team house facilitate players to work harder, but if you livelihood depends on it and you have decided that this is the path you have taken, plus with the massive size of the nonkorean player base vs the Korean, it blows my mind that so few nonkoreans are willing to put in the effort. Also mentioning that we see a lot of foreigner team houses lately.
Just look at the ladders as well. The top players on the Korean ladder have many more games played than the top foreigner players and judging from interviews, it does definitely not seem that it’s because foreigners just practice all the time in custom games compared to the Koreans.
Somewhat a cultural thing. Stephano always used to brag about how he never practiced and won anyway. That's the way to be "cool" in the west. Just like it's not "cool" to overdo your homework.
In Korea some schools don't let you go before more than 12 hours workday. Basically I feel like Koreans are raised to much harder practice and dedication. I remember someone winning a star league and didn't even celebrate for the night, but went home and continued practice for proleague. That would NEVER be the case for any foreign player.
I don't think it's about the genes. I'm certain Stephano would have been top 5, if he actually practiced 10-14 hours a day. Not sure if he would be better off doing that amount of practice, though.
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Actually losing is okay. If you believe losing makes you an inferior human being you´re bound for serious psychological problems in your life. Because in competition, everybody loses at some point.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Don't speak for Asians. I am sick and tired of hearing someone say as a "put in ethnicity or race" and speak for the rest of that group.
What in the world are you talking about? Way to stereotype your own people. I have met PLENTY of asians that are incredibly lazy, and just as relaxed with games as many other people.
I have met all types of personalities from all different types of ethnicities and races.
As I understand your question (poorly written by the way) you want to know if we, viewers of SC II, think a foreigner will every win something big when we have koreans in it.
I guess for myself I do. Naniwa is the guy I point too who can do it. Nearly beating leenock, and getting top 4 at mlg. Losing to a polt who naniwa claims vs Terran is his worst match up. I think as long as Naniwa is in it he gives hope. Stephano also has that affect, he gives hope. Huk and idra both use to play that role for fans. I think koreans are beatable, I think we are just waiting for someone to do it, and not fear them.
On July 09 2013 21:01 Cereb wrote: I really want to make a point about the amount of practice. You can talk about infrastructure all you want but the number of time I have seen a top Korean vs top foreigner where the Korean was much much better at spending their resources and had much higher apm. There is nothing else behind those numbers than pure mechanics and you don't get those from having "slave practice partners" and "great infrastructure". These will give you a tactical advantage, and while this might just be the most important factors, the numbers we have prove that the Koreans simply practice harder. Until top foreigners can prove that they are practicing as hard as the top Koreans I'm not even gonna bother talking how the infrastructure influences as that is much more abstract and harder to measure.
You could say that the team house facilitate players to work harder, but if you livelihood depends on it and you have decided that this is the path you have taken, plus with the massive size of the nonkorean player base vs the Korean, it blows my mind that so few nonkoreans are willing to put in the effort. Also mentioning that we see a lot of foreigner team houses lately.
Just look at the ladders as well. The top players on the Korean ladder have many more games played than the top foreigner players and judging from interviews, it does definitely not seem that it’s because foreigners just practice all the time in custom games compared to the Koreans.
Part of 'Infrastructure' includes the possibility of spending more time training instead of worrying about making rent at the end of the month.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Just to use your own silly stereotype against you, thankfully a good portion of NA pros are Asians or of Asian descent...Suppy, Hendralisk, Hellokitty ...
This topic has been discussed to death in TL. Even if the game is new, Koreans have an advantage due to the infrastructure and training discipline among progamers. The Koreans just have the right attitude and opportunity to succeed. Wake me up once Incontrol or Idra start shutting up and put in some actual good old fashioned hardwork instead of being busy pretending to be esports personalities.
On July 09 2013 22:51 HeeroFX wrote: As I understand your question (poorly written by the way) you want to know if we, viewers of SC II, think a foreigner will every win something big when we have koreans in it.
I guess for myself I do. Naniwa is the guy I point too who can do it. Nearly beating leenock, and getting top 4 at mlg. Losing to a polt who naniwa claims vs Terran is his worst match up. I think as long as Naniwa is in it he gives hope. Stephano also has that affect, he gives hope. Huk and idra both use to play that role for fans. I think koreans are beatable, I think we are just waiting for someone to do it, and not fear them.
The only possible way for foreigners to something big is luck in the brackets and many top koreans not coming/eliminating themselves in ultra hard qualifiers. The problem is that GSL/SPL players are so far ahead, foreigners winning something wont make this huge gap disappear or give people with sc2 knowledge the wrong idea of an even field. Foreign sc2 = marketing, GSL/SPL = skill; no way this gonna change in the near future. edit: Now that the first steps are set, TL needs to add a downvote button.
On July 09 2013 21:01 Cereb wrote: I really want to make a point about the amount of practice. You can talk about infrastructure all you want but the number of time I have seen a top Korean vs top foreigner where the Korean was much much better at spending their resources and had much higher apm. There is nothing else behind those numbers than pure mechanics and you don't get those from having "slave practice partners" and "great infrastructure". These will give you a tactical advantage, and while this might just be the most important factors, the numbers we have prove that the Koreans simply practice harder. Until top foreigners can prove that they are practicing as hard as the top Koreans I'm not even gonna bother talking how the infrastructure influences as that is much more abstract and harder to measure.
You could say that the team house facilitate players to work harder, but if you livelihood depends on it and you have decided that this is the path you have taken, plus with the massive size of the nonkorean player base vs the Korean, it blows my mind that so few nonkoreans are willing to put in the effort. Also mentioning that we see a lot of foreigner team houses lately.
Just look at the ladders as well. The top players on the Korean ladder have many more games played than the top foreigner players and judging from interviews, it does definitely not seem that it’s because foreigners just practice all the time in custom games compared to the Koreans.
Part of 'Infrastructure' includes the possibility of spending more time training instead of worrying about making rent at the end of the month.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Just to use your own silly stereotype against you, thankfully a good portion of NA pros are Asians or of Asian descent...Suppy, Hendralisk, Hellokitty ...
That's not an excuse for alot of established pros, especially the ones on EG.
On July 09 2013 21:01 Cereb wrote: I really want to make a point about the amount of practice. You can talk about infrastructure all you want but the number of time I have seen a top Korean vs top foreigner where the Korean was much much better at spending their resources and had much higher apm. There is nothing else behind those numbers than pure mechanics and you don't get those from having "slave practice partners" and "great infrastructure". These will give you a tactical advantage, and while this might just be the most important factors, the numbers we have prove that the Koreans simply practice harder. Until top foreigners can prove that they are practicing as hard as the top Koreans I'm not even gonna bother talking how the infrastructure influences as that is much more abstract and harder to measure.
You could say that the team house facilitate players to work harder, but if you livelihood depends on it and you have decided that this is the path you have taken, plus with the massive size of the nonkorean player base vs the Korean, it blows my mind that so few nonkoreans are willing to put in the effort. Also mentioning that we see a lot of foreigner team houses lately.
Just look at the ladders as well. The top players on the Korean ladder have many more games played than the top foreigner players and judging from interviews, it does definitely not seem that it’s because foreigners just practice all the time in custom games compared to the Koreans.
Part of 'Infrastructure' includes the possibility of spending more time training instead of worrying about making rent at the end of the month.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Just to use your own silly stereotype against you, thankfully a good portion of NA pros are Asians or of Asian descent...Suppy, Hendralisk, Hellokitty ...
That's not an excuse for alot of established pros, especially the ones on EG.
Good thing that's not who the discussion is about. EG isn't really have a hard time qualifying for things and not worrying about rent is likely one of the the reasons. Maybe now that Root had a house, they might be able to double down on training as well.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I think we r missing the point it seems cArn was dropped by gom because they would have preferred another native player ahead of him. Unlucky for him. Life is not fair. Sure you have great natural talented players like stephano on one hand who can thrive without a team environment and without a coach and you have cArn who played better with it but unfortunately gom screwed him over.
GOM dropped him because FXO (the American team with qxc, slog etc) was moving in the GOM House, and since they were going to participate in GSTL, whilst he was just a Code B player, they were the priority.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: You can use a smartphone translator to talk to people in korea if a person wasn't fluent. Or use google translator to convert english to korean and show them on yr phone. It shouldn't take that long to learn the words for starcraft 2 units and build orders etc. If he still isn't confident at languages then you can't blame korea and koreans. It's just unfortunately that learning a language is a barrier and he was unable to do it well.
Also, i don't know why americans/europeans think korean is a hard language to learn. yes there are differences in tone etc but it's just a language. Even if the progamer failed to learn the language at least that person tried. It's better to learn the language but not a requirement.
Out of all the Western eSport personalities in Korea, the only two people I know who are fluent in Korean are Wolf and LastShadow. As far as I know, Khaldor, Tasteless and Artosis have been going to classes, but are not fluent. As I said, unless you're a super smart genius with a sponge for a brain (or unless you're really young), becoming fluent in a language takes a long time, at least a few years. Fluent means being able to talk and write in a language with ease, almost as good as you are with your native tongue. It is not that easy to achieve unless you start learning it from when you're young. I'm not blaming Korea or Koreans, I'm saying that the language barrier is a problem which is not easily circumvented. I applaud you if you managed to become fluent in French and Chinese in a matter of weeks, but normal people are not that lucky or smart.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I don't know what you know about football but scouts in brazil try to find good talent because there are good players there.
Of course, as I said, Brazil has a massive football culture, obviously there will be better football players in Brazil, compared to the US, or even other European countries where kids tend to prefer watching it than playing it. As you know, Brazil has some very poor areas, where amateur football is still extremely popular. I know for a fact that Maltese football clubs buy Brazilian and Nigerian amateurs, pay very little in terms of salary like 300-500 euros a month or even less, but that tiny salary is still much better than anything they'd ever get in Brazil/Nigeria. On the other hand, breeding a local player to be as good as them would be much more expensive. So you can't really compare Americans moving to Korea to play a video-game, with players from Eastern Europe/Africa/South America moving to much richer countries simply because they always have a better opportunity to make money when they move to a richer country, even if they don't become a professional tennis player or whatever, they can cook tacos and still make more money than they'd get in their hometown.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: you said "Secondly, professional football teams scout poorer areas because good players from Brazil are much, much cheaper (and more common), than good players from England, or Italy, for example."
If somebody found another pele from brazil he would be very expensive. Look at neymar. He was recently sold to barcalona for 49 million pounds. Football clubs don't scout in brazil to save pennies. They scout there to find top players they will pay big money for to bring to their clubs. Football is the biggest sport globally worth billions of pounds. Money is no object. The fifa world cup is watched by billions worldwide....no other sport comes close to football.
You're talking about massively famous super-stars -.- I thought we were talking about skilled players who need to be trained/developed -.- Before they get famous, they're cheap. I'm not talking about players who get picked up by the top Brazilian clubs, and then get bought by European teams...
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: I think your view is shortsighted. You are saying that esports has to have as much money as a real sport for people to bother taking risks and invest their lives into it. Sorry but people need to take that risk because they love the sport. For example, Catz, could have gotten a normal 9-5 job but instead he made a teamhouse and does fundraisers to raise the profile of sc2 and esports. If people like catz weren't around because they wanted more money and no risk then esports would be dead in the water.
No, it doesn't have to have as much money, but there has to be a prospect to be able to have a livelihood. For the vast majority of people who don't have the support of a top organisation, it is not possible to move to Korea when they're young, pay for rent etc whilst practicing SC2 full time...
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: That's why we need people to step up their game and put in maximum effort and determination and if they really want to be a progamer then go for it. If you have the skill and the right mindset you will go far. If you always make excuses about koreans having better this and that then you better forget about being a progamer and just go to university. But even university in america is way more expensive than in europe. So even going to university is a risk since most students are in debt due to student loans.
That's exactly what most pro gamers in the West do...they do their best, and some are definitely better than mid-tier Koreans...but no one can deny that the Korean practice environment is better. The argument here is why can't people work at making such an environment available also in other regions of the world...that's how you grow eSports, not by sending youngsters to Korea.
On July 09 2013 07:39 Xercen wrote: You keep on comparing the risk of esports to tennis and NFL etc. You can't wait for esports to have that same level of infrastructure before having american sc2 progamers because by that time esports would be dead. That's why we need pioneers like stephano and naniwa to do the dirty work and take those risks and get esports on the way to becoming a sport even if it takes years after they have retired.
You brought up the comparison with sports, I was just rebutting your arguments, because I don't they're applicable in this instance. What dirty work would Stephano and NaNiwa do? Sending foreigners to Korea does not make eSport more globally recognised. You mentioned GRRRR and ElkY yourself, that was a decade ago...how did their stay in Korea improve eSports in the West? It improved the recognition of the existence of the Brood War community in the West, but it did not improve eSports at all. You need to think long term, and even if HuK won a GSL, you think that suddenly Canada will rise and become a second Korea? No, not at all. You start by having domestic leagues, and clans, then perhaps you get a semi-professional team with the best Canadian players, so on and so forth.
Nobody said you have to be fluent to live in korea. But it certainly does help. But if you want to live in another country then it's best to learn the lingo to at least a conversant level.
So you can't really compare Americans moving to Korea to play a video-game, with players from Eastern Europe/Africa/South America moving to much richer countries simply because they always have a better opportunity to make money when they move to a richer country, even if they don't become a professional tennis player or whatever, they can cook tacos and still make more money than they'd get in their hometown.
Korea is a first world country. Every first world country has decently paid jobs for people if you look hard enough. When i was a teenager i went to a foreign country and got a job at an airport even though i didnt speak their language. English and Chinese are the main languages in the world so if you know either one of them or both then you can find a job in ANY country. It's nonsense if you say you can't find a job. But let's go back to my original point see next section
No, it doesn't have to have as much money, but there has to be a prospect to be able to have a livelihood. For the vast majority of people who don't have the support of a top organisation, it is not possible to move to Korea when they're young, pay for rent etc whilst practicing SC2 full time...
I already stated the steps he would need to take. I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal?
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
That's exactly what most pro gamers in the West do...they do their best, and some are definitely better than mid-tier Koreans...but no one can deny that the Korean practice environment is better. The argument here is why can't people work at making such an environment available also in other regions of the world...that's how you grow eSports, not by sending youngsters to Korea.
Yes practice environment is better but the main factor is player skill and creativity and determination. That is the main factor. Naniwa and Stephano have all 3 in abundance and that's why they won many tournaments and are levels above other foreigners.
Also, i'd like to know what is the difference between US players and EU players since EU players don't live under korean teamhouse conditions yet they are doing miles better than US players. Hence this is another reason why the korean environment is not the main factor. I think the reason is that EU and Koreans are just hungrier than americans. Americans do train but EU and koreans analyse games in detail much moreso than Americans imo.
I've been thinking about things and if there is a cultural influence it's most likely American culture in which they think winning is everything and also the American blame culture. Where it's not your fault but rather somebody else when you lose. That's why a lot of Americans find it difficult to accept that somebody better than them beat them fair and square. Not all Americans but some. Maybe they don't analyse replays as much.
I mean you like to blame korean culture and infrastructure for making Koreans invincible but imo it's moreso American culture because Eu players are better than NA and as well as Koreans so there is something no right with the US players.
Also, one of the best NA players is suppy who is a part timer and is also asian. Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
Also, i'd like to note that European skill level is very close to Korean skill level. Sjow beating Life and MANY other results have reflected that.
Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make.
You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Nobody said you have to be fluent to live in korea. But it certainly does help. But if you want to live in another country then it's best to learn the lingo to at least a conversant level.
Well yes, that's fine, but that doesn't mean there is no communication problem; there always will be. No one is expecting the Koreans to know English, but even with the player's efforts to learn 'Korean lingo', there is always a barrier to some degree. This has been expressed by all the foreigners who tried the team house approach in Korea.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Korea is a first world country. Every first world country has decently paid jobs for people if you look hard enough. When i was a teenager i went to a foreign country and got a job at an airport even though i didnt speak their language. English and Chinese are the main languages in the world so if you know either one of them or both then you can find a job in ANY country. It's nonsense if you say you can't find a job. But let's go back to my original point see next section
Wait, how are you going to practice 10 hours a day, learn Korean, AND find a job and work enough to pay rent, travel, food etc? I thought we were talking about young, talented teenagers, not Jesus. Most Koreans are hopeless in English, and most people in America and Europe don't speak Chinese or Korean...we're talking about teenagers, who have no job experience, and probably no qualifications either except relatively good at starcraft...some people have trouble finding jobs in their hometown, let alone in Korea.
In what foreign country did you find the job? France or Hong Kong (I think you mentioned it earlier)...English is an official language in Hong Kong...and French is the most common second language for British people...so you really cannot compare the two.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: I already stated the steps he would need to take. I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal?
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
It's what most people who went to Korea did, like for example desRow, but then again a lot of people hate on him despite what he tried to do and the huge amount of time and money he spent in Korea. But it's very, very different to being drafted at some 14 or 15 years of age to a team house like most Korean pros lol...and that's the whole point of it.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Also, i'd like to know what is the difference between US players and EU players since EU players don't live under korean teamhouse conditions yet they are doing miles better than US players. Hence this is another reason why the korean environment is not the main factor. I think the reason is that EU and Koreans are just hungrier than americans. Americans do train but EU and koreans analyse games in detail much moreso than Americans imo.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
EU also has much better infrastructure than NA. There are basically domestic leagues in every country. There are entry level amateur teams, semi-pro teams, and a good number of fully professional teams (stable companies which have been in eSports for a decade, as opposed to the couple (literally) that there are in NA.) There is also a much deeper and more skilled player pool on ladder in EU.
Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make.
You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make.
You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match.
Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make.
You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match.
Then I think you're even more sorely mistaken, seeing how precocious denotes something that is much better than its lack of maturity would suggest. To be more precise, when a person is precocious, they are much more mature, reasonable and/or realistic in spite of being otherwise fairly young, and certainly much more so than the average in the respective age group.
Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans.
I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make.
You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match.
Then I think you're even more sorely mistaken, seeing how precocious denotes something that is much better than its lack of maturity would suggest. To be more precise, when a person is precocious, they are much more mature, reasonable and/or realistic in spite of being otherwise fairly young, and certainly much more so than the average in the respective age group.
Haha, dictionary screwed me over. It says it means both being ahead in development as well as pretending to be. English derp. So what would the latter be? Because in German there´s a word for that, so I figured in English there should be as well having a gazillion words.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Nobody said you have to be fluent to live in korea. But it certainly does help. But if you want to live in another country then it's best to learn the lingo to at least a conversant level.
Well yes, that's fine, but that doesn't mean there is no communication problem; there always will be. No one is expecting the Koreans to know English, but even with the player's efforts to learn 'Korean lingo', there is always a barrier to some degree. This has been expressed by all the foreigners who tried the team house approach in Korea.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Korea is a first world country. Every first world country has decently paid jobs for people if you look hard enough. When i was a teenager i went to a foreign country and got a job at an airport even though i didnt speak their language. English and Chinese are the main languages in the world so if you know either one of them or both then you can find a job in ANY country. It's nonsense if you say you can't find a job. But let's go back to my original point see next section
Wait, how are you going to practice 10 hours a day, learn Korean, AND find a job and work enough to pay rent, travel, food etc? I thought we were talking about young, talented teenagers, not Jesus. Most Koreans are hopeless in English, and most people in America and Europe don't speak Chinese or Korean...we're talking about teenagers, who have no job experience, and probably no qualifications either except relatively good at starcraft...some people have trouble finding jobs in their hometown, let alone in Korea.
In what foreign country did you find the job? France or Hong Kong (I think you mentioned it earlier)...English is an official language in Hong Kong...and French is the most common second language for British people...so you really cannot compare the two.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: I already stated the steps he would need to take. I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal?
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
It's what most people who went to Korea did, like for example desRow, but then again a lot of people hate on him despite what he tried to do and the huge amount of time and money he spent in Korea. But it's very, very different to being drafted at some 14 or 15 years of age to a team house like most Korean pros lol...and that's the whole point of it.
On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote: Also, i'd like to know what is the difference between US players and EU players since EU players don't live under korean teamhouse conditions yet they are doing miles better than US players. Hence this is another reason why the korean environment is not the main factor. I think the reason is that EU and Koreans are just hungrier than americans. Americans do train but EU and koreans analyse games in detail much moreso than Americans imo.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
EU also has much better infrastructure than NA. There are basically domestic leagues in every country. There are entry level amateur teams, semi-pro teams, and a good number of fully professional teams (stable companies which have been in eSports for a decade, as opposed to the couple (literally) that there are in NA.) There is also a much deeper and more skilled player pool on ladder in EU.
I think we are going over the same ground.
Throughout history foreigners with no grasp of english have travelled to distance lands and gotten jobs there and founded communities. For example, indians in UK, muslims in many countries, Irish/italians/hispanics in america
Yes it's harder to get a job in a country in which you don't speak the common language fluently but it seems you are trying to make it sound like a mountain that is impossible for anybody to climb which isn't true.
I already posted about the steps a young progamer should take.
I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal? excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money
If the foreigner is really determined they can find a job in their native country (maybe even streaming) and save up money while doing practice. Of course practice will be less but something has got to give when you are trying to becoming a sc2 progamer at it's current state. Ideally, teamliquid should have a amateur progamer of the week list in which a wannabe sc2 amatuer streamer is highlighted in some way.
You keep on making excuses for foreigners but i know many determined people in my life. There are people who have come from extremely poor backgrounds and gone on to become pillars of the community.
1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in. whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false.
Yes it's very very difficult but that's why we need really determined americans/foreigners to take up the challenge.
This will be my final post to you since i think we are just going over the same ground.
But i do appreciate your side of the debate mikki. Also, with this debate both of us are assuming a lot of things such koreans working 14 hours a day and americans being less than determined. Both of which we have no factual evidence of. It's hard to get any evidence at all since you will need a huge sample size etc etc which we don't have.
Because usually if somebody is working 14 hours a day unsupervised (coach can't always be around) then it won't be 14 hours of work...most likely a lot coupled with a lot of slacking inbetween just like in real life.
So whenever people say koreans work 14 hours a day i take it with a pinch of salt and definitely is unbelievable.
Seeing your profound knowledge of how the world works, and how every obstacle can be overcome if you only put your mind to it, why not write a blog, for all those aspiring pro-gamers? So they know how to become successful, no matter what they struggle with. I´m sure it would be appreciated, greatly. And it would be a pity, if all that deep e-sports knowledge would go unnoticed in this thread, when it could benefit so many.
On July 11 2013 15:38 Daswollvieh wrote: Xercen, you should be counselor.
Seeing your profound knowledge of how the world works, and how every obstacle can be overcome if you only put your mind to it, why not write a blog, for all those aspiring pro-gamers? So they know how to become successful, no matter what they struggle with. I´m sure it would be appreciated, greatly. And it would be a pity, if all that deep e-sports knowledge would go unnoticed in this thread, when it could benefit so many.
I can only assume your post is sarcastic based on what you have previously said.
But a lot positivity goes a long way. Imo, it's much better than being negative and making excuses but hey, that's just me.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
Am I the only one who is confused by the OP? You first state that this is not intended to argue about the WCS structure, and yet you go on and talk about regions in tournaments.
There are many factors, all of them probably already discussed in this thread, that come into play when discussing korean/foreign skill levels and why there is such an obvoius gap. The BW training infrastructure is probably the biggest advantage the Koreas have, it is also the reason why KeSPA players now almost dominate the power ranks. The training environment in Korea is just a little bit ahead of the rest of the world, because they've had the time to practice practicing during the BW days. Not so many things change when you switch from BW to SC2 I'd imagine in terms of practice routine. There really wasn't any team houses outside Korea before the launch of SC2 from what I've understood (could be totally wrong though), and it takes years to learn what things are needed for a team house to run as "efficiently" as possible.
The SC scene in total has a lot more exposure in Korea than in the rest of the world, although the gap is a lot smaller than it was before. Even this has an impact on skill-level: the more exposure, the more people want to play the game competitively. Stiff competition on the ladder is probably another great advantage that the Koreans have compared to us Europeans or Americans.
my take on this on how foreigners be able to achieve korean level of supremacy:
1st they need to gather motivated people willing to be the very best. People with the attitude to do EVERYTHING to be the best, with only SC2 in mind. Nearly no life people. (this is really hard for foreigners as priorities can be different or culture)
I want to think that the "Japanese work ethic" can be the best description of what is happening to korea, it sounds cliche but they work around respect, honour and discipline (like samurai's do). training there is rigourous, plus there is this inner competition inside the team house as well(choosing the superstar). Where if you are the best you need to prove it and also if your the best bet, the coach will identify that and make you the alpha male player which others will be used only for polishing your initial skill (this would not work in an all foreigner team probably because everyone wants to dominate) there are key players in korean teams that only do one thing, like practice with the star player just scenarios over and over for like 8hrs until the coach is satisfied(again hard to have foreigners do this) Coaches in korea(kespa especially) dont give a fuck about you, they care for the greater good of the team, its like military training and if you show attitude they would just say: get out of the house. This works well because koreans are very respectfull of their mentors and elders and will do as instructed.
Foreign teams then will need to copy these kinds of training regimen, start with these korean-foreigner match up to get the trainings and regimens. They need to fund the right people with already innert talent and the motivation to just have Starcraft in mind. No school, no other priorities. Just SC2 and to win.
I guess this would be possible but can we get this kinds of foreigners? The nearest were HUK and Naniwa and they put out results but they need to be putting doubled effort to attain "korean level".
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
I don't think it's necessarily culture, it's more about upbringing i think...there are many driven individuals who go to great lengths to achieve what they want to in the West...you get very pushy parents in the West, and in a competitive environment like professional careers and business you do need a lot of discipline etc Perhaps being 'care free' is more common in the West, but its not a culture thing restricted to Asia only imo.
On July 11 2013 10:54 Xercen wrote: 1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in. whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false.
THANK YOU! If you look at my first post, you'll realise that this was my entire argument. It is much harder for foreigners than Koreans!
many had say it it before, and i agree, but i would like to strong the point:
The cultural environment helps a lot!!!, i bet there are lots of kids (6-7 years old), in korea already practicing and dreaming of becoming a pro gammer, growing in a family, school, group of friends that are really supporting that... of course 99.9% of them won't succeed, but the 0.1% that does... end up being stupidly good.
i live in argentina, we had many of the best football players in the history of the sport (so does brazil, but they are even better because they actually win world cups! lol), for example Messi (we had others). And why thats happens? same as SC for korea... here everyone, i mean EVERYONE know how to play soccer, if you don't know how to play, all your friends start to think you are gay, or just plain stupid... so, even if you are not really into it, you end up learning how to play, and the competition here is at a very high point, there are football fields everywhere, always full of people playing... so is to be expected that lets say a 0,01% of them end up being good enough for the pro scene, and therefore... "Messi" who earn millions of euros kicking a ball xD
i never traveled to korea, but i bet is the same in SC for them
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
I don't think it's necessarily culture, it's more about upbringing i think...there are many driven individuals who go to great lengths to achieve what they want to in the West...you get very pushy parents in the West, and in a competitive environment like professional careers and business you do need a lot of discipline etc Perhaps being 'care free' is more common in the West, but its not a culture thing restricted to Asia only imo.
On July 11 2013 10:54 Xercen wrote: 1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in. whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false.
THANK YOU! If you look at my first post, you'll realise that this was my entire argument. It is much harder for foreigners than Koreans!
Yeah I in a degree I agree, but asian parents hate gaming and think of them as waste of time so.. I can say culture because it most asian parents are pushy and in this case most coaches as we are talking about the game
I agree with that "care free attitude" and korean even if they win now they wont stop, they are too humble and they keep on practicing hard, it is like they live it.
The invisible handicap... A lot of posts claimed it is a cultural phenomenon and I agree… well sort of. I would not say it’s “cultural” I would say it’s about the environment, the general conditions, the surroundings (political, cultural, financial etc.). For example I wonder about how the differences between Korea and the rest of the world are regarding the following questions (I really have no idea):
How long is the average SC2 Pro Gaming Career?
How much money does an average pro player make in that time?
Which social status is attributed to the profession pro gamer? Is it even taken seriously as a profession? And in connection with that:
what career opportunities does a retired pro have after his gaming career is over (assuming he/she sacrificed his/her education for it, which is kind of required if you really want to be good)
My point is if being a professional gamer isn’t even seen as legitimate profession and maybe is even smiled at in some regions, if you have no real career opportunities after you stop gaming why would you put all your dedication in it, sacrifice your education and social life for it? I really think though, that the “traditional” view of gamers is changing (in the world outside Korea) and if “Pro Gamer” is becoming a legit profession maybe with a fraction of the prestige that for example football has in Europe the “skill gap” between Korea and the rest of the world will disappear.
I would like to pose a question and would like you guys to provide hypothetical answers.
Firstly, Polt has been teamless since dec 2012 when he left TSL. Recently he has been sponsored by CSstorm as a 'one man clan'
Polt has also been pursuing full time education in America (reason why he left tsl)
If the Korean infrastructure in which teamhouses/coaches and training as well as access to the Korean GM ladder were overwhelming factors in determining the skill level of players then why is polt perfoming so well after 6 months away from the korean scene as well as playing part time?
You could say he had trained in a teamhouse/had coaches/had access to the korean ladder before which would be 100% true but does that mean that what he gained from the aforementioned is
1) determination to succeed and the right mindset 2) the ability to self analyse replays and contruct builds solo 3) creativity and the ability to be unpredictable
If that's true then as i have said countless times before, to become really good at sc2 then you need the 3 points above but once you have gained those 3 points (skills) then you should be self sufficient like polt. Some players might gain those 3 points via teamhouses/coaches/krladder-infrastructure or by just playing solo and working hard but once you have gained them you are self sufficient.
Because how else can you explain how a part time gamer, polt, who is a one man clan do so well vs kespa and esf code s players while studying full time and being away from teamhouses/coaches/kr ladder for 6 months.
Because people like Polt, Stephano and Naniwa exist, It kinda throws a spanner in the works saying infrastructure and working 14 hours a day is the only way to succeed. Because if that was true, those 3 would never have won as many tournaments as they have done.
Also, i remember a recent tournament. I believe homestory cup in which the commentators were making jokes about America because gosuwer didn't even spread creep. It shows there is a huge difference between NA and EU/KR. I think the korean and european mindset is very similar and that's why we see players like lucifron who don't play full time yet are very analytical and plays like a korean even without having korean infrastructure. I can only see europeans and koreans close the gap while NA lags behind because of that mindset and the difference in determination.
Another analogy. America has the best tennis infrastructure yet they failed to produce any male tennis stars. Why is that the case? Tennis players earn millions so it's not because of a lack of prize money.
If you guys could post about the polt anomaly and also the tennis/america anomaly that would be great.
btw there is a khaldor thread with pig which talks about the foreigner/korean phenomenon
Gonna watch it.
Watching the video.
1) Pig says that foreigner teams are buying established players rather than buying no names who show the right amount of determination to succeed which is the wrong approach.
2) Khaldor says american players are not willing and have issues training with other players.
3) quite funny. Pig speaks about dedicated motivated players and pig mentions snute and naniwa then khaldor casually mentions that pig picked out those players that are in korea atm. I.e incredibly dedicated.
Actually, thinking about NA EU players that have achieved notable success in the past and present, those that have done and are the most motivated/dedicated have all gone to korea.
1) IDRA 2) HUK 3) STEPHANO 4) NANIWA 5) SNUTE
it's quite funny that the best and most dedicated top tier players that won tournaments are also the ones most willing to travel to korea and train.
Good video. I thought it was well presented. Good questions and no obvious bias.
Basically they went over the stuff we already said in this thread but they also mentioned that americans were cherry picking tournaments because they felt they couldn't perform in them. Fair enough but surely gaining valuable tournament experience is useful even if you can't post your best performance? Fine if they want to skip tournaments but there aren't a huge amount of tournaments such as mlg/dreamhack going on so why cherrypick if you can attend every single one.
It seems to me that the foreigner esports teams/scene are shooting themselves in the foot rather than doing all they can to improve the scene.
For example, MLG and us esports teams might be too focused on making money and hitting streaming targets rather than trying to scout for talent they can develop. Atm they are just mainly buying big names that are already well known and established although the recent purchase of xenocider by EG is a good step in the right direction.
Also they mentioned that american/foreigner players aren't willing to practice with others and develop. Could be an ego issue/extreme competitiveness etc.
Seems to me if there are any cultural issues that are holding foreigners back it's in their home base rather than korean infrastructure being 'too good'
Naniwa basically said foreigners are lazy and scared of korean players
You heard it from the mouth of the best foreigner.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
Sorry but where i live. There are hardworking, ambitious, determined people from all walks of life and all races. That stereotype of asians being the best and hardworking is just a stereotype with no basis. There are plenty of asians with low paid crappy jobs who are lazy in china/korea and japan.
Btw im english and asian so i know these things from both sides.
Also people always post about asians liking their kids to be gamers. Sorry, but most parents of all races want their kids to have jobs which don't involve playing a game everyday. I'm pretty certain this is the case in EVERY single country.
They also post about koreans having to have no life to play sc2. Sorry plenty of korean progamers have girlfriends.MC and many others. It's just a biased foreigner perception of koreans which i find troubling.
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote: As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
Sorry but where i live. There are hardworking, ambitious, determined people from all walks of life and all races. That stereotype of asians being the best and hardworking is just a stereotype with no basis. There are plenty of asians with low paid crappy jobs who are lazy in china/korea and japan.
Btw im english and asian so i know these things from both sides.
Also people always post about asians liking their kids to be gamers. Sorry, but most parents of all races want their kids to have jobs which don't involve playing a game everyday. I'm pretty certain this is the case in EVERY single country.
They also post about koreans having to have no life to play sc2. Sorry plenty of korean progamers have girlfriends.MC and many others. It's just a biased foreigner perception of koreans which i find troubling.
Yes, but what I am talking about here is most asians are brought up to be like this. Forced to strive and disciplined. Asians, would mostly smack their children when they talk back or not follow, in the western countries how common do you see that? Children in the US even threaten their parents of child services.
Of course there would always be exeptions and lazy people, whatever race or walks of life.
Yes, no parent in the world would like to have their children be progamers. It is logical that they wanted to have "real" jobs for their children and that I agree with every single country. And yes, korean pro gamers have lives since they have social lives, have girl friends no question about that (also I did say that they dont have lives ) Korean progamers even bang them fan girls, ask Huk.
As a chinese person who's spent a significant time in both the U.S. and China, I think the reason comes down to culture. Asians are just super competitive and value hard work and thinking outside of the box. That's not to say it's not this way in Western culture, but it's certainly not enforced nearly as much as it is over here. In places like Korea China and Japan, where the population and available jobs ratio is very high, people are taught from an early age that if you're not going to break your neck when it comes to getting an education and working towards a future, you're gonna be left in the dirt. This philosophy pretty much becomes part of many people's very being.
But like some have already said, this doesn't mean all asians are like this. In fact still slackers regardless. If you look at how korean pro's get to where they are, you'll see that they were the few among the many who participated in off-line qualifiers determining if they were good enough to be a pro-gamer. So a combination of a huge pool to draw from plus different values placed upon people by the culture, and you see why Koreans end up dominating.
EPT
