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On July 08 2013 13:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:19 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous. As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food. I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough. That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition. We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining.
You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example).
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On July 08 2013 13:28 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:24 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 13:19 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous. As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food. I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough. That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition. We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers. You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining. You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example).
All right this is pointless now, your opinion is clear, Koreans players of all skill levels are perfect professionals that never whine and everyone else is a whiney bitch. If a player can't find a way to play 8-10 hours a day and pay for rent, he doesn't care enough and deserves to lose. And if they can't go to Korea to train, that's all their fault too.
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On July 08 2013 13:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:28 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 13:24 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 13:19 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous. As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food. I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough. That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition. We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers. You wouldn't be participating in WCS unless you were serious about SC2. Hence, argument still stands. Man up and stop complaining. You see the Koreans really bitch when they lose to non-Koreans due to unorthodox timings/strats/jetlag/etc.? No. It's never an excuse for them. They stake the fact that they are professionals and that they will not lose because of that professional title. There are ZERO excuses for them. So why the fuck would anyone who is serious about SC2 bitch about losing to anyone unless there is a clear and distinct imbalance in the game (i.e. Infestors vs Terrans late in WoL as an example). All right this is pointless now, your opinion is clear, Koreans players of all skill levels are perfect professionals that never whine and everyone else is a whiney bitch. If a player can't find a way to play 8-10 hours a day and pay for rent, he doesn't care enough and deserves to lose. And if they can't go to Korea to train, that's all their fault too.
No, the point is that if you truly love the game (which any true 'professional' would) then you'd make it work. You do realize that half of the SC2 gaming houses at the beginning of the game were broke and occasionally had to ask from their own players to help fund the house? The amount of bitching that I see/hear from Western PROS that have a legitimate gaming house or have a real salary so that they don't have to worry about rent is unbelievable. All I ever hear is that they can't compete because of the fact that Koreans have a professional infrastructure blah blah blah.
You think that Korean pros move to Western gaming organizations just for shits and giggles? Lol. Fucking unbelievable. All I see is you wiping the asses of the Western SC2 scene. I don't mean to shit all over it, but it's so easy to do so because of how much whine comes from it, more than any other competitive community that I have ever been a part of.
Want a real world professional sports example of the dedication it takes?
If you are in the top 30 or so in professional tennis, you are pretty set. If you are a big name, you make millions of dollars of year. If you are below this line, you barely make more than I do at a government job, except you have no benefits, no retirement pension, expenses out of the wazoo, pretty much live out of your car etc.
Mind you, the only way to become a professional tennis player is literally to start at the age of like 5. You have to show promise, your parents have to support you the whole way, and pay for all the expenses that come with it. Then, you at a very young age have to decide instead of going to a regular school, you are basically going to drop out, go to an academy and then proceed to the minor leagues of professional tennis in the hopes that out of the literal thousands of aspiring players out there, you will make it to the top 30 in order to have a pretty good life style (that still isn't as good as lots of white collar jobs like computer engineers, doctors, top notch lawyers, etc.)
Oh, and mind you that you are at a severe disadvantage if you don't grow above 6 feet tall, if you don't have flexibility, etc. etc. And yet some short dude from Spain that is barely above 5'6 is top 5 in the world currently? You know how he got there? Certainly not on his physical talent.
So yeah, it's not just 'Starcraft' where you have to make big sacrifices and huge gambles. It's every fucking sport. If you are good enough and determined enough you will make it. If you don't, you are a bumb. Welcome to high risk high reward jobs. You think guys like Kobe, Lebron, the Manning Brothers, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Nadal, and virtually every other big name in sports didn't sacrifice a ton to get to where they are at? They lost their childhood/early adult years in order to get to where they are at because they had to bust their ass. So stop the bitching. Seriously. It's fucking annoying. If they can't handle it then just don't call yourself a professional gamer and go work a real job.
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The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there.
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I like how everyone keeps on using the "we don't have the infrastructure" excuse.
What a dumb rationalization, when there's proof that nullifies it everywhere.
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On July 08 2013 09:08 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak  I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons. you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless. We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love. Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children. yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa. Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then. Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it?
Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you?
I see your point but my original argument was:
- Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example.
- Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact.
Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series.
Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
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On July 08 2013 15:22 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:08 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons. you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless. We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love. Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children. yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa. Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then. Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary. Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it? Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you? I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example. - Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact. Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series. Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist. Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL.
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On July 08 2013 15:55 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 15:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 09:08 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons. you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless. We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love. Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children. yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa. Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then. Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary. Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it? Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you? I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example. - Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact. Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series. Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist. Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not) Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL.
Neither CatZ nor Drewbie are really professional players..CatZ has often said that his main aim is the running of Root, playing competitively is secondary to the well-being of his team, and does Drewbie even play competitively? I don't see real professional gamers such as Snute, Thorzain, SaSe, Grubby etc be lazy...
Yes, DeMusliM streams ALOT, but hey, he can still hold his own against mid-tier Koreans, and is probably better than some B-teamers, so he must be doing something right...
They don't want to 'ban' players from WCS America, they want a level playing field with WCS Korea. If you need to be physically present in Korea to play even the qualifiers for WCS Korea, why can you play WCS America from across the world?
WCS America is called Korean Code B for a reason, because weaker Koreans are getting as much prize money and recognition as top Koreans. It is basically rewarding those Koreans who took the easy way out. So a player like HerO, no offence, can earn 5 times as much as an arguably better player like PartinG or Life, for example. What CatZ wanted was a residency requirement or something of the sort, whereby players would actually have to commit and sacrifice something. It doesn't bar anyone from playing in America, it just needs them to move there or something. His dream was to have an 'eSports city' in North America, a place where you would have 2 or 3 actual team houses (not like the EG Lair which has two players and no coach)...Koreans, Americans, whoever they are. What's so wrong about wanting to at least TRY to emulate what there is in Korea, in America, and start building a culture of eSports outside of Korea?
Riot are actually doing it best, because there is a healthy eSports structure in every continent, from NA, SA, EU, Taiwan, China, Korea, SEA....
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On July 08 2013 18:11 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 15:55 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 15:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 09:08 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons. you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless. We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love. Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children. yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa. Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then. Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary. Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it? Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you? I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example. - Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact. Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series. Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist. Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not) Because you have on record players like Catz that want to ban players from North American tournaments or Drewbie that is complaining about his own job. There's actually not much speculation at all about the work ethic; it's pretty easy to see on streams or based on what the pros have said themselves here on TL. Neither CatZ nor Drewbie are really professional players..CatZ has often said that his main aim is the running of Root, playing competitively is secondary to the well-being of his team, and does Drewbie even play competitively? I don't see real professional gamers such as Snute, Thorzain, SaSe, Grubby etc be lazy... Yes, DeMusliM streams ALOT, but hey, he can still hold his own against mid-tier Koreans, and is probably better than some B-teamers, so he must be doing something right... They don't want to 'ban' players from WCS America, they want a level playing field with WCS Korea. If you need to be physically present in Korea to play even the qualifiers for WCS Korea, why can you play WCS America from across the world? WCS America is called Korean Code B for a reason, because weaker Koreans are getting as much prize money and recognition as top Koreans. It is basically rewarding those Koreans who took the easy way out. So a player like HerO, no offence, can earn 5 times as much as an arguably better player like PartinG or Life, for example. What CatZ wanted was a residency requirement or something of the sort, whereby players would actually have to commit and sacrifice something. It doesn't bar anyone from playing in America, it just needs them to move there or something. His dream was to have an 'eSports city' in North America, a place where you would have 2 or 3 actual team houses (not like the EG Lair which has two players and no coach)...Koreans, Americans, whoever they are. What's so wrong about wanting to at least TRY to emulate what there is in Korea, in America, and start building a culture of eSports outside of Korea? Riot are actually doing it best, because there is a healthy eSports structure in every continent, from NA, SA, EU, Taiwan, China, Korea, SEA....
Adressing a few points here. The infrastructure does work in Korea (being offline) because Korea is relatively small and every player can participate in the offline qualifiers. Blizzard wants to move towards that, but it will increase costs for players and teams as America is a large.
Koreans take the 'easy way out' because somehow people believe that Europe or North America do deserve the same price pool as Korea which is stupid, because the competition there is worlds ahead of EU and NA. I dare to say, higher pricepool in Korea would not change as much, because if you have 0% chance of winning money there now, you will have 0% chance of winning money there if there's more price money, yet I feel like calling them out for choosing NA is stupid and lacks respect. If it were to be that KR>NA>EU I dare to say, every NA player would choose EU. Its just a smart choice for a competitive professional to choose the server in which he most likely wins most money.
Other than that, I can only say that I feel that NA players need to step up their game. SeleCt came back from inactivity and made deep runs, how is that possible without a lot of training? Polt lives in america, is no full-time pro because he studies and still manages to win an MLG against the best? You can stay and c an be good even with practice in NA and you even have the chance to get the good practice on the KR server (at least for some regions of NA)
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On July 08 2013 13:54 Hikari wrote:
The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there.
Correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't Polt already close to the top in the first place? But yeah, not going to argue against the merits of hard work.
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was watching proleague today and sometimes when they talk in Korean its so fast I can't keep up reading subtitles. I had an idea maybe Koreans think faster because their language consists of fewer and shorter words lol?
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On July 08 2013 19:46 Cheerio wrote:
was watching proleague today and sometimes when they talk in Korean its so fast I can't keep up reading subtitles. I had an idea maybe Koreans think faster because their language consists of fewer and shorter words lol?
lol indeed.
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On July 08 2013 18:50 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:54 Hikari wrote:
The new "american" hero Polt proved that it has nothing to do with infrastructure or anything like that, just plain hard work gets you to the top.
I am tired of seeing people think the kr teams are very well off (they are not) and the kr progamers, including "b teamers and practice partners who somehow mysteriously get food and shelter from the bank of progaming" have nothing to worry about.
Got to admit to the fact how you probably need to live with parents while you are breaking into the scene. Don't stick to the comforts of the NA ladder: go play full time in the KR ladder and keep working at it. Once you are queuing against high ranked GM barcodes on the kr ladder and beating them you know you are getting there. Correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't Polt already close to the top in the first place? But yeah, not going to argue against the merits of hard work.
You are correct that Polt was very good before MLG and had previously won a GSL. It doesn't make his win less impressive, but he was very good already due to playing in Korea prior to his time in the US.
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On July 08 2013 10:59 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. Good post. I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Boguesa NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true. Same story as Tom Brady.
If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . .
Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have."
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On July 08 2013 20:31 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:59 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. Good post. I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Boguesa NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true. Same story as Tom Brady. If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . . Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have."
What do you know about the mindset of pro athletes?
In fact a recent study from 2012 showed that the pressure to succeed among pro athletes leads to every second one frequently feeling burned out, every third one having sleep disorders and every fifth one having recurrent depressions. There was no relation to the amount of training or the sport practiced. Athletes with a liability to perfectionism were more likely to suffer psychologically.
And two of the main reasons identified were:
- short career spans
- insecure job situation
So, yes, it´s not about some kiddy-commercial-ideology of "striving to be the best" or "not working hard enough", it´s about the infrastructure. And that´s why Koreans in financially sound teams have a significant advantage over players who aren´t. But lets ignore harsh reality and dream of greatness against all odds...
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Are we conveniently dismissing the fact that a talented EU player won major tournaments ? And I doubt he made a lot of sacrifices ...
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On July 08 2013 21:18 Otolia wrote:
Are we conveniently dismissing the fact that a talented EU player won major tournaments ? And I doubt he made a lot of sacrifices ...
Yes, we're dismissing it because it's irrelevant.
On July 07 2013 09:26 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[snip]
And sure, people love to bring up Polt and Stephano etc, but you must not forget that there will always be outliers, there will always be people who have the talent to require less practice and still succeed. They're not the rule, they're the exception. If you're going to bring up Polt and Stephano as examples of people who don't need Korean training facilities, why not also bring up NesTea and DongRaeGu, two of the most iconic Zergs of Wings of Liberty, both of which admitted multiple times that they don't like practicing and don't practice very much? Why not also bring up Stork, widely considered one of the best BW players of all time (and rightfully so), who has also stated that he practices very little and also plays other games? They're just outliers, not remotely representative of the average player.
Such players are maybe a handful, at most a dozen in a game's lifespan...
Look at the best players, not just top players but the very best in the world. Not only are they talented, but they also work their fucking ass off. Look at Mvp and TaeJa, and how they trained to the point of developing wrist injuries. Hell, look at FlaSh, Jaedong and Bisu, the three of them practiced like none other which is why each of them was able to enjoy a period of dominance and why they're considered some of the best players to have ever touched Brood War. Look at Moon, widely considered to be the best WC3 player of all time, who at one point would only sleep in between games...
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This trap never gets old. :D
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Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
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On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote:
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Fitting username haha. ^^
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EPT
