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This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
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On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level.
All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season.
On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner.
Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
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On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak 
I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons.
you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless.
We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly.
In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense.
Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried.
If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love.
Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children.
yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen.
Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa.
Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!)
That's the point i'm making.
People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative.
The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill.
You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then.
Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary.
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On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over?
That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?).
All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete.
Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world.
There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
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On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing.
But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
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On July 08 2013 10:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing. But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
"And remember, rather than arguing the main point I'll just bring up a completely unrelated strawman argument because I suck at arguing the main argument"
Because homegrown NBA allstar teams are invincible no matter what right? I've never seen an NBA allstar team ever lose to a ragtag foreign group of amateurs. That's never happened since the existence of basketball. Gtfo.
Don't have to cook their own food? This just shows how fucking ignorant you are. Do you even understand what a B-Teamer has to do on a Kespa team? Goes to fucking show you know absolutely nothing. You act like the B-Teamers have it all made, private rooms, there own fucking maid or some shit. Holy shit. I can't even believe what I just read.
I will refrain from the amount of ignorance you just displayed about Korean proteams in general, especially what a lower ranked player has to do in a Korean progaming house, because it is 100% evident that you are completely ignorant as to the situation a player enters when he joins a progaming house as a second string player.
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On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching.
Good post.
I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues
a NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true.
Same story as Tom Brady.
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On July 08 2013 10:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing. But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there.
Actually MLS has done a lot to expand american viewership of football (real football not handegg ^_^ i do love san fran 49ers though ^_-)
You got top former European star players such as beckham, thierry henry, Robbie Keane who went to play for MLS.
yes it's not at the same level as NFL but at least they are trying and they are expanding. Having a lot of former top stars attracts a lot of attention.
But that doesn't mean people won't try to make mls even bigger in the states. Considering a lot of latinos are from south america who are huge on football, i can see MLS numbers swelling in the future due to increasing latino birth rates.
Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't expect NFL equivalent salaries but those progamers who try now will be the artosis and tasteless of the future. I.e guys who love sc2 and get paid to commentate on a sport they love. Even if they don't have tournament success, they can be the sc3 commentators of the future. You might say oh but they will forgo their college education etc. But if you love something you take that risk.
Look at artosis, tasteless...day9. They all took a risk with sc2 and made it a huge part of their lives and now they are community pillars. And they aren't winos living on the streets either.
Greg also took a risk with esports and he isn't a pauper either.
Of course there are others who didn't make it like lastshadow but we do salute him for his efforts and he is an esports pioneer like naniwa as far as i'm concerned. Making esports into sporting mainstream.
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On July 08 2013 10:41 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing. But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there. "And remember, rather than arguing the main point I'll just bring up a completely unrelated strawman argument because I suck at arguing the main argument" Because homegrown NBA allstar teams are invincible no matter what right? I've never seen an NBA allstar team ever lose to a ragtag foreign group of amateurs. That's never happened since the existence of basketball. Gtfo. Don't have to cook their own food? This just shows how fucking ignorant you are. Do you even understand what a B-Teamer has to do on a Kespa team? Goes to fucking show you know absolutely nothing. You act like the B-Teamers have it all made, private rooms, there own fucking maid or some shit. Holy shit. I can't even believe what I just read. I will refrain from the amount of ignorance you just displayed about Korean proteams in general, especially what a lower ranked player has to do in a Korean progaming house, because it is 100% evident that you are completely ignorant as to the situation a player enters when he joins a progaming house as a second string player.
If you are going to tell me that an amateur football team could beat the Patriots or amateur soccer team could beat Manchester United, I am going to say you are very silly. I don't care how much they practice.
You mean that they are called dishwashers and they do the dishes? That is why the Kespa players called the GSL the dishwasher league forever? You mean they do chores around the house. If there are 7 B-teamers, one of them would only have to do dishes 3-5 times a week at max. In real life, I have to do dishes like 10 times a week or more if I cook for more than one meal a day and a few on the weekend. The same goes with food. And rent, which they don't have to have a job to earn, since the teams deals with that too. When you share the chores between a lot of people, its less chores for everyone as a whole.
But your right, young, unsigned NA players should just try harder. They should live in shitty apartments and work minimum wage jobs for the hopes of making it big. They should have no social life or health insurance or any ability to save money. They should risk it all on the dream of being as good as those Kespa players and hitchhike to the next MLG. And if they get tired of living like that, its because they are a quitter. And if they ever complain that they don't know how to compete against the Kespa players, its clear they are a whiner.
On July 08 2013 11:14 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
[quote]
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. And remember that if any other country in the world started their own America football league with their own local players, there is no way NFL teams would ever compete in against them. Because it wouldn't even be a contest. And if at the end of the season the winners of this new league went to take on the Superbowl champions, it would be such a joke game we wouldn't even talk about it. It would be so much of a joke that it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing. Just like an NA soccer league wouldn't even compete against the EU and SA titans for years, because it would be embarrassing. But you are right, the Kespa players do practice more. And they are busy knocking out every NA player for WCS NA. And they also don't have to cook their own food or do laundry. Or even worry about rent. They might not even have to cook their own food. They don't even need to look for practice partners, because they are right there. Actually MLS has done a lot to expand american viewership of football (real football not handegg ^_^ i do love san fran 49ers though ^_-) You got top former European star players such as beckham, thierry henry, Robbie Keane who went to play for MLS. yes it's not at the same level as NFL but at least they are trying and they are expanding. Having a lot of former top stars attracts a lot of attention. But that doesn't mean people won't try to make mls even bigger in the states. Considering a lot of latinos are from south america who are huge on football, i can see MLS numbers swelling in the future due to increasing latino birth rates. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't expect NFL equivalent salaries but those progamers who try now will be the artosis and tasteless of the future. I.e guys who love sc2 and get paid to commentate on a sport they love. Even if they don't have tournament success, they can be the sc3 commentators of the future. You might say oh but they will forgo their college education etc. But if you love something you take that risk. Look at artosis, tasteless...day9. They all took a risk with sc2 and made it a huge part of their lives and now they are community pillars. And they aren't winos living on the streets either. Greg also took a risk with esports and he isn't a pauper either. Of course there are others who didn't make it like lastshadow but we do salute him for his efforts and he is an esports pioneer like naniwa as far as i'm concerned. Making esports into sporting mainstream.
I'm not saying people can't do it. The pros signed to teams should be able to practice enough. I just saying it is fucking hard as hell for any unsigned player and having the entire B-team of Kesap competing in WCS NA makes it even more difficult. I am sure some will make it, but shitting on the players how hang up their mouse and say "I don't know how to beat these Kespa players, no matter how hard I try," is terrible. There are whiners, but there are also guys who gave it their all and didn't make it. And as long as WCS NA is filled with Korean pros, there are going to be more and more NA players who try, give it their all, and fail. And shitting on those players for quitting or saying "I don't know how to beat those Kespa players without moving to Korea and being on one of their teams" is a terrible habit the community has.
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lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
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On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote:
lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways.
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On July 08 2013 11:51 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote:
lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable. BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways.
You just made your argument against yourself in that last sentence. The lack of underage foreign pros is a symptom of the overall problem. If a 22 year old Korean pro has 7 years of progaming experience under his belt, how is a 22 year old foreigner going to even begin to bridge that gap?
However, that's a false question to address because the answer will always be that it's impossible for the foreigner to bridge that gap. The better question is how can a 22 year old foreigner even get considered for a professional team when the professional teams can just sign underage Korean players? There's far more upside to signing underage Koreans compared to adult foreigners (will be less expensive, more potential years playing the game, more potential for coaching to pay off over the years, etc.)
EDIT: Another question to answer would be "how can we encourage more underage foreigners to play full time?" That's going to be much harder to answer.
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Like everything in life, genes, culture, and formative experience (all of which often form a positive feedback loop)
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On July 08 2013 12:02 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 11:51 iamho wrote:On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote:
lmfao @ how many times this has already been discussed on TL.
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable. BS. They are allowed to enter and leave the scene whenever they want. This is an argument concocted by lazy foreigners who don't want to admit that Koreans are better simply because they work harder. There are few underage foreign pros anyways. You just made your argument against yourself in that last sentence. The lack of underage foreign pros is a symptom of the overall problem. If a 22 year old Korean pro has 7 years of progaming experience under his belt, how is a 22 year old foreigner going to even begin to bridge that gap? However, that's a false question to address because the answer will always be that it's impossible for the foreigner to bridge that gap. The better question is how can a 22 year old foreigner even get considered for a professional team when the professional teams can just sign underage Korean players? There's far more upside to signing underage Koreans compared to adult foreigners (will be less expensive, more potential years playing the game, more potential for coaching to pay off over the years, etc.) EDIT: Another question to answer would be "how can we encourage more underage foreigners to play full time?" That's going to be much harder to answer.
Make more high school and colleges leagues with real reasons to play and good competition? Trick their parents? Its a good discussion to have about how to we get more players to take SC2 seriously at the amateur level. MLG isn't a reasonable entry level for those high school players. Its a good experience, but lower level events where they could cut their teeth would be better.
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The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
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On July 08 2013 11:43 Doodsmack wrote:
The Korean practice model basically amounts to child slave labor. It's a radical cultural difference that allows such a thing to be acceptable.
It's not slave labour if it's voluntary. Back in the day young challenger players would kill to be a b-teamer on a Kespa team. If the kids want to commit to working hard at what they love and can leave at any time I don't see an issue.
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On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous.
As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food.
I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
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On July 08 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous. As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food. I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough.
That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
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On July 08 2013 13:19 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 12:54 superstartran wrote:
The fact that Plansix thinks that all they do is wash dishes is unbelievably hilarious. Fucking hilarious. You get paid shit, you have to do work for the people that start on the team, etc. etc.
You live in a fucking bunk bed and grind your fingers out 12 hours a day ontop of chores, etc. blah blah blah. Welcome to the glorious life of a professional gamer. Seriously, you are fucking beyond ridiculous. As opposed to an NA aspiring player, who doesn't even have the option to do that. S/he gets to practice 4-6 hours a day, because they need to work the other 8 hours to pay their rent in their shitty apartment. 12 hours on their days off, or maybe 10 because they need to do stuff around the house, like clean and buy food. I never said it was awesome or not hard work. I'm just saying that its an option that an NA player doesn't even have, even if they are good enough. That's not even true. Various players have the opportunity to live in a gaming house or have a sponsor that helps keep them afloat, and yet they don't take advantage of it. Instead they sit there and stream for hours on end of ladder play against inferior competition.
We are not talking about the same set of players. I am talking about new players, not established pros on EG or other teams. I am talking about the players we both have never heard of who tried out for the WCS today and got crushed by Kespa B teamers.
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On July 08 2013 10:59 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:
[quote]
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. Good post. I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Boguesa NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true. Same story as Tom Brady.
I went to a basketball camp ran by Muggsy Bogues many years ago. Guy was a true athletic beast... could dunk the ball at 5'3'.
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EPT
