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On July 07 2013 13:09 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 13:06 Plansix wrote:On July 07 2013 12:55 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 12:41 DBS wrote:On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:
[quote]
er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend. What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team? http://aligulac.com/players/57-GanZi/http://aligulac.com/players/38-TheStC/http://aligulac.com/players/82-Oz/http://aligulac.com/players/36-MC/http://aligulac.com/players/35-Ryung/http://aligulac.com/players/28-MMA/http://aligulac.com/players/126-PuMa/http://aligulac.com/players/106-aLive/ Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung? I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed. ok
You just pointed out a bunch of players that you know not to be signed to Korean teams, but didn't check to see if they fell off due to joining them. Ryung, Alive and MMA were teamless due to the Slayers non-sense. Ryung was literally sleeping on the floor with two other players and practicing on one computer. PuMa left after his own fall off due to failure to adapt to the changing game. MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
There is no Kespa in NA or EU. Going to Korea for extended periods has cause a good number of players to become worse due to culture shock and inability to have any social life beyond SC2. There are no teams of highly skilled players to practice against in NA at the same level that the Kespa players can. These teams have been cranking out great players for BW for 10 years and there is no reason they can't find and grown talent in SC2 as well.
There are foreign players that can become as good as the Kespa Koreans, like TLO and Demuslim. Or Korean players who can rise outside of Kespa, like Polt. But there will ALWAY be fewer of them than there are Kespa players. Because the Kespa teams are better at finding the best and sending the rest home. And while Kepsa is sending a ton of those players to WCS NA, they have a better chance(by simple raw number of players) of winning everything.
And until the players are required to commit more than two weeks outside of Korea in NA to win WCS, the Kesap players will always have a raw numerical advantage over the independent or foreign team players.
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United States97276 Posts
aLive wasnt on Slayers. He was on TSL and joined Fnatic. He admitted to falling off because Fnatic had such a lax practice environment so that argument could actually have merit.
although he did win IPL 4 soon after joining Fnatic so it could have been him becoming complacent with his spot in sc2 after winning.
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On July 07 2013 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote:
aLive wasnt on Slayers. He was on TSL and joined Fnatic. He admitted to falling off because Fnatic had such a lax practice environment so that argument could actually have merit.
For one player, on one team, at one specific point. It is not a catch all argument for all Korean players that switch to non-Korean teams. Its a lazy argument used by people who just want to claim foreigners are lazy, when there are some many other things at play.
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I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise."
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On July 07 2013 15:36 Micromnky wrote:
I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise."
Maybe thats a point.
In Brasil, people leave their families at 12, 13 yr old and go to a football club to try to be a new Pele/Ronaldo/Neymar.
Its sad, but in some profissional areas, this is almost required.
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On July 07 2013 11:25 StreetWise wrote:
I think at least speaking for America, the reason that we suck in comparison is the culture. Gaming is not accepted as a healthy hobby. More so computer gaming. Playing Xbox is even more respectable. Sitting on the couch watching Glee is more acceptable. Its sad but true. The next thing is that Americans care a lot about money. Most of our smart people will not play games but follow the path their parents lay out for them. Our most potential players probably never even played the game. Same thing as soccer. Our best athletes are playing Football, Basketball, and Baseball.
I agreed with your saying, and i can tell clearly since i lived in US and i live in seoul korea now
i can see the difference between foreign and Korea Culture is way way way sooooooooooooo big
korean culture is accustomed to communal life it is the key of difference so koreans has no significant difficulty or worry
about life of environment in korean team house and they has competitive society in every fields
this culture makes to koreans get more efforts
and i have to say about the success of team house envirionment in foreign(western) culture.
Personally, I see the negative side in foreigners team house.
In comparison with korean culture, foreigners team house could have a lot of difficult control peoples and develop training
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On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams.
On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American  As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then 
I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame?
You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age.
I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers.
It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
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On July 07 2013 15:46 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 15:36 Micromnky wrote:
I think it's laughable that so many people completely write-off 'foreign' players as having no drive to work hard, commit or put any effort into practicing and winning, when the sacrifice for them to go to korea and play and practice is so, so much more than any korean player.
s.korea is a tiny country. its not a big deal for some kid fresh out of high school, who's been playing and practicing with a pro team for years, to move into a teamhouse, and make almost nothing, just enough for housing and food, and dedicate themselves to playing professionally, when they can fall back on just, moving back home (maybe a few hours away). Especially when progaming in s.korea has been much more accepted and proven as a profession. Dont even kid yourself that gaming is accepted or as widely known in the rest of the world as a legit professional career. Its not,...its just a fact we have to deal with. Overall, taking a shot at progaming isnt a huge deal in s.korea because of this. Its just a different culture there.
I think mouzIllusion's response in this thread is a really great insight. I think many just brush off how truly difficult it is for non-koreans to travel there and play in their training environment for long enough that it -might- pay off. Its usually super scary, and intimidating for many people to simply move a few hours away for college. Let alone for (in mouzIllusion's case) a 16-17yr old to fly half-way across the world, to a country with a vastly different culture and language, to play....a video game. It's a huge gamble. Financially, emotionally, and just all-around. It's really rough to move to a completely foreign country, in which you dont speak the language, even, and train at a professional level (whether its pro sport, industry, whatever). Its definatly not a matter of "Herp derp, dey dun want teh win enuff gaise." Maybe thats a point. In Brasil, people leave their families at 12, 13 yr old and go to a football club to try to be a new Pele/Ronaldo/Neymar. Its sad, but in some profissional areas, this is almost required.
If you want SC2 pros to take risks like that you will need to make them earn the same money football stars do.
Which you can't because the audience is nowhere close in numbers.
The whole 'foreigner level' discussion is entirely circular.
Foreigners will never catch up because the scene lacks training infrastructure.
Foreign scene lacks infrastructure because Brood War was never big outside Korea.
In the end it's fools dream that pro players will drop their entire lives and leverage their future carrier on a video game that may be dead 2 years from now.
The rewards just don't match the risks.
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On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school.
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
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On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
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On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself.
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
And yes, Japan has superior fighting game infrastructure due to arcades, smaller country which = more concentrated competition, etc. etc. and yet U.S. FG players are still able to hang and easily go toe to toe with Japan SF players in the more recent times.
So no, it doesn't take a superior infrastructure; it takes hardwork and dedication, and just learning to actually play the game rather than rely on some gimmicky ass play like hellbat dropships, or some other nonsensical gimmick that alot of non-Korean players tend to heavily rely on.
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On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2.
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Or is the infrastructure for both Japan, the US and EU equal in fighting games, because none of things I talked about above exist for that game.
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On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV.
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. So no, my analogy still holds. If the rest of the world can catch up to Japan who has held a literal 99.9% chokehold on SF for literally decades, then there's 0 reason why the rest of the world can't catch up to Korea in SC2. It's just that most of the world just relies on unreliable bullshit that doesn't stand toe to toe with someone that plays the game and learns all the ins and outs of said game.
I've said this over and over again. The rest of the world just comes up with excuses as to why they can't compete with Koreans, rather than coming up with solutions as to how they can improve their game to at the very least match against the Koreans and don't get stomped into a shit stain come big tournaments. It's almost sickening and a completely defeatist attitude, and a big reason why I stopped watching SC2 tournaments, because non-Korean players mostly go in with the attitude that they are already at a disadvantage if they are facing a 'Korean Godlike LOL E-Sport Professional Trained Employee'
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On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored.
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
The endless argument that non-korean SC2 players just need to "try harder" and "be willing to give up everything to be the best" are just old. Now that Kespa is in the mix, it is just going to be a numbers game. They are going to have a larger number of more talented players because they are better at find and training them.
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On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced.
Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. The advantage the Japanese had was akin to a professional advantage, as they had various 'fighting houses' that people could go train at and improve their game, against the best competition possible. This is on top of the already ridiculously huge arcade culture that they have had over there. America and the rest of the world had nothing like that, and yet they caught up.
And you wanna know why I call it whining? Because the rest of the world hasn't been able to produce one single player without Korean help that is able to consistently compete vs the best Koreans. Not one. Not a single player. Even during the height of Japanese dominance and Chinese dominance in their respective games (Street Fighter, DotA, WC3 etc.), the rest of the world has been able to produce some teams/players that are able to compete vs them and beat them. The closest the world ever has been was with Stephano, and he still can't do it on any consistent basis.
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On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:[quote] I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. [quote] What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. [quote] You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. [quote] I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on... I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't. I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities. Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game. I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as 1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment 2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods) 3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it. 4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard. 5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally 6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level. I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices. Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions.
I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge.
What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO?
What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
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On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:On July 07 2013 13:31 Plansix wrote:
MC is still MC and has NEVER been on a foreign team.
umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. On July 07 2013 10:47 Xercen wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities.
Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years.
Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done.
If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
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On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:[quote] umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. [quote] Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
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On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:On July 07 2013 17:07 mikkmagro wrote:[quote] umm...MC plays for SK Gaming, one of the most prominent German teams. [quote] Well I guess we just disagree then I very much doubt that Kane earns some lucrative salary, IF he even has one; he doesn't even play fulltime as far as I know. Yes, he earned some cash playing Shoutcraft America, but that's not all that makes a pro gamer. You actually have to be really good to be competitive, and who has the opportunity to be a really good player, Kane, or some 15-year old B-teamer on SKT1? Who has the opportunity to develop, win big international championships? Life was a frikkin world champion at what, 15, 16? Maru is one of the best eSF players in Korea at 14 years of age. Do you expect Americans to fly off to Korea at the age of 12 so they can begin grinding and be as competitive as the Koreans at 15/16? Stop putting ridiculous expectations on people, who can't even get on a plane on their own, let alone take such a huge life decision. Do you seriously expect a teenager to move to a foreign country, without financial backing, without friends or family and dedicate his life to a videogame? You cannot compare eSports in the West, with eSports in Korea. America's eSport infrastructure is extremely poor, even Europe, China and Taiwan are better off. The fact that in Korea you have certifying examinations for pro gamers is a great thing, not something that makes it harder for players. There's a structure. In America, an SC2 pro looks more like a flailing fish out of the water, while in Korea, you have a structure that helps you develop playing videogames into a full-time career from a very young age. I'm not going to argue on historical (and present) facts about immigration to the US. You're from the UK, you should know why so many Indians, Pakistanis, Polish and Romanians travel to your country for a better quality of life. I know why so many people migrated from my country to find a job in the US, UK, Canada or Australia in the 1960s...it just made economic sense for them to do so, even though they might have been unskilled workers. It's one thing to make sacrifices to pursue a viable career, it's another thing to jeopardise your entire future because you thought playing a video-game was more important than finishing high school. Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually. It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16. In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries. Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english. Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world.
Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players.
If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers.
On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
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On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at.
That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
Btw im only talking about young men who aspire to be progamers. People like whitera/dimaga are married and thus it's much harder for them to contemplate a move abroad which is fair enough. But a young man of 16 to 23 shouldn't have any problems going to other countries.
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams. Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical.
You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Like, I'm talking about DK, iG, and LGD having tons of disposable income at their hands, especially iG which is owned by a multi-millionare.
And yes, foreign players are lazy in general. Are you serious? Most of them think playing 14 hours a day in high level competitive matches is a waste of time when they could be going out and doing better things. Well guess fucking what, I guess you shouldn't have chosen competitive gaming for an occupation.
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