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On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
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im sure it may be more indepth scouts and people lookin at games to better prepare them i cant see it beingt totally down to mechanical skills the game has a finite limit to when things can be done essentially, they just get the very most optimised run of it
not sure though but i know what you are trying to say
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On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote:
do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.).
These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture.
But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA.
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On July 08 2013 04:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote:
do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l. I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.). These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture. But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA.
yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
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On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but there will always be fewer foreign players willing to move over seas than there will be Korean hopefuls trying out for Kespa teams. As MouzIllusion said, living in Korea can be hard for a lot of players and some players simply may not be able to due to any number of reasons. And even to get the practice they would need, the players would somehow need to work with or get onto one of the Kespa or ESF teams.
Its a tall order for a 15-16 year old kid and if that is the barrier of entry, there are just going to be fewer foreign players of that level. Now if the WCS required all players to be there live for the challenger and premier league, the problem almost solves itself. This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right?
Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
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On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW.
I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player.
On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:44 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
This argument that Koreans still have some superior advantage due to better infrastructure is bullshit.
No; what makes you better is your mindset. The U.S. and the rest of the world used to get completely dominated by Japan in pretty much every Capcom fighting game for years on end (with the exception of Todo Ohira/Jeff Schaeffer Era pre-ST). That changed when the world finally changed their mindset and stopped going for cheesy/goofy/blatantly overpowered bullshit in said fighting games, and actually learned how to properly play. Results at the recent Evos has shown that the U.S., Korea, and the rest of the world are easily on par with Japan despite not having the supposed 'high level competition' that everyone seemingly glorifies in SC2. Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better.
That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
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On July 08 2013 04:26 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote:
do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l. I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.). These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture. But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA. yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
Try a response that isn't a strawman argument, because I'm not generalizing to all activities, and I explained why nurture makes far more sense than nature for this game, specifically.
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On July 08 2013 04:26 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2013 08:54 i zig zag around you wrote:
do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l. I think more people think that it's because of the Korean culture and attitude towards e-sports and pro-gaming, along with the fact that the atmosphere there seems to be more conducive towards the things needed to increase the chances of success (team houses, ex-pros and coaches, sponsors, easier living conditions, etc.). These things are found in far greater quantity and quality in Korea than in other countries, and it certainly helps that e-sports and pro-gaming is more normalized there and ingrained in their culture. But no, it's obviously not because of their DNA. yea, it's impossible for a group of people to have advantages at any sport or activity, right?
I challenge any nation to put together at an America Foot ball team that could even compete in the NFL and qualify for the play offs. I will even give you 5 years to do it and it still won't happen.
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Their eyes are slits so their vision is more focused and more effective. Simple really.
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On July 08 2013 04:33 Monsen wrote:
Their eyes are slits so their vision is more focused and more effective. Stupid and racist, really.
Fixed.
No idea how that's supposed to be funny.
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On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are there professional teams for the fighting game players, that provide housing, food, laundry service, practice partners and coaching? Do they have these in Japan and not in the US or EU? I wasn't aware that there were teams of Japanese fighting game players sponsored by the biggest companies in Japan who are several times a week on national TV. Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
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Arguing that infrastructure means nothing is batshit insane. If the examples of players falling off after joining foreign teams doesn't do it for you, how about the opposite? EG-TL was failing miserably in Proleague despite having a strong roster. Lo and behold, they hire a new head coach and he manages to get the team to pull around and start taking wins.
To equate StarCraft to boxing, up-and-coming NA players basically have a lumpy punching bag to practice against. Half the time it falls apart when you hit it. The Korean side on the other hand has shiny new equipment, an assortment of the best sparring partners in the world, a coach telling them what to practice, etc.. Does this mean the guy with his lumpy punching bag can never win? Hell no, but it's an uphill battle.
Effort and motivation and all that are certainly large chunks of it too, but telling the guy with his lumpy punching bag that he should just shut up and try harder isn't too helpful because it ignores the crux of the problem: there are multiple issues bogging down the NA scene in particular that all somewhat rely on each other. Foreigners -do- need to try harder, but they -do- also need better infrastructure. That infrastructure is hard to justify when they lack the opportunities to turn that into profit. Those opportunities are hard to come by when , they lack the skill/dedicationetc. etc.
It's a much more complicated scenario than just "try harder!" or "more infrastructure!"
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On July 08 2013 04:36 shelfofjustice wrote:
Arguing that infrastructure means nothing is batshit insane. If the examples of players falling off after joining foreign teams doesn't do it for you, how about the opposite? EG-TL was failing miserably in Proleague despite having a strong roster. Lo and behold, they hire a new head coach and he manages to get the team to pull around and start taking wins.
To equate StarCraft to boxing, up-and-coming NA players basically have a lumpy punching bag to practice against. Half the time it falls apart when you hit it. The Korean side on the other hand has shiny new equipment, an assortment of the best sparring partners in the world, a coach telling them what to practice, etc.. Does this mean the guy with his lumpy punching bag can never win? Hell no, but it's an uphill battle.
Effort and motivation and all that are certainly large chunks of it too, but telling the guy with his lumpy punching bag that he should just shut up and try harder isn't too helpful because it ignores the crux of the problem: there are multiple issues bogging down the NA scene in particular that all somewhat rely on each other. Foreigners -do- need to try harder, but they -do- also need better infrastructure. That infrastructure is hard to justify when they lack the opportunities to turn that into profit. Those opportunities are hard to come by when , they lack the skill/dedicationetc. etc.
It's a much more complicated scenario than just "try harder!" or "more infrastructure!"
It is weird that it could be a little of both. I would like to see more small scale, local tournaments that focused on the NA scene. Dota 2 seems to have all the cups all the time and it made all their teams better.
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On July 08 2013 04:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:33 Monsen wrote:
Their eyes are slits so their vision is more focused and more effective. Stupid and racist, really. Fixed. No idea how that's supposed to be funny.
get a sense of humor and you might find out.
You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
well, eh, i guess if you make a tournament for europeans only the winner must be... european.
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Work ethics, dedication, envirionment and iirc they've lighter bones (for that sick apm)
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On July 08 2013 04:58 i zig zag around you wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 08 2013 04:33 Monsen wrote:
Their eyes are slits so their vision is more focused and more effective. Stupid and racist, really. Fixed. No idea how that's supposed to be funny. get a sense of humor and you might find out. Show nested quote +You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. well, eh, i guess if you make a tournament for europeans only the winner must be... european.
And the teams get better because they play a lot in a competitive environment and were able to get to the level of the Chinese teams.
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On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big.
It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them.
I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening?
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both.
I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo.
I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young.
Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone.
I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice.
Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results.
NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners.
On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak 
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On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak
Maltese? Hmm,, i've always wanted to go to Malta..
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On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp. So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc. And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve. On July 08 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 03:49 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Japan has numerous vast advantages over the rest of the world in FGs. And yet in recent times the rest of the world has caught up despite said advantages through predominantly amateurs who up until literally a year ago were not sponsored. Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. Yeah, you are done. You didn't prove your point and just called foreign players lazy. The FG community is an armature scene that didn't have professional, cooperate sponsored teams for 10 years. Dota 2's non-chinese teams are becoming must better because they have a huge number of tournaments to play in on their own and the scene is super competitive. There will always be players like Demuslim and Nani'wa, but there will be fewer of them than Kespa players. If there is a more home grown scene that gives space for NA talent to grow, then things might change. But while every Kespa B teamers is trying out for WCS NA, all we get is the few players that are in WCS right now and maybe a couple new comers. On July 08 2013 04:12 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:10 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:02 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Detail these advantages then, rather than just claiming they are equivalent so the advantages provided by a Kespa team. I don't believe they are equivalent at all, as the FGC is not at all comparable to the SC2 community. If you tell me the 5 larges companies in Japan sponsored 10-20 fighting game players and provided them with housing, food and travel, I might be convinced. Stop arguing over such a stupid detail. The point is that if it can happen in other games where a country has a superior advantage (and mind you, Japan had a massive advantage, anyone who plays FGs knows about this) to other countries, and yet it can be overcomed, that means that all this whining about 'Korean professionalism' is bullshit. Stop complaining, and start looking for solutions. I would argue they are nothing alike. There are no professional teams of players, trainers and weekly televised matches for Japanese fighting game players. Claiming its a stupid detail is just a dodge. What was the advantage? As far as I knew, everyone was human and had the same abilities to play the game. What was the magic that made the Japanese better as FG than the rest of the world? Was is something in the water? Did they have boot camps where all the players would meet in Tokyo and play for months at a time before EVO? What made them better? Or was it they had a more robust community around the game that NA and EU didn't? Because that is nothing like having 8 professional teams sponsored by the largest companies in the country who have been creating champions for 10 years. Nice job blowing up your whole argument. I'm done. If you knew anything about the FG community in Japan you would understand why they had a gigantic advantage over the rest of the world. I'd imagine it's because the entire scene is in such a small space, and there are great arcades to train at. I am sure the NA scene for SC2 would be much better if the country were a lot smaller. Also if the government supported the game like the Korean government does, but that isn't really practical. You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams.
You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans.
Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up.
So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo.
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I'd love to see an honest chart of the hours the different players practise. Not all koreans are the beasts that we think of as korean pro gamers.
The other day DeMuslim was saying that to be a competitive pro gamer you need to practise for a minimum of 5 hours per day. I compared it in my head to what I think was an interview with a famous Korean woman who talked about flash or someone practising 14 hours a day in BW. Add that to the structured practise it's possible to get in a team with dedicated practise partners and the knowledge that can be passed around in a concentrated community and top Korean pro gamers have a lot of advantages.
On Inside the Game suppy was talking about his mlg 6-pool vs demuslim that major had told him to try. Juan/major said Demuslim wouldn't know that you had to drop an engi bay to stop it and that proved to be true. That was probably a months old strategy from korea that Demu was encountering for the first time.
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EPT
