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On July 07 2013 05:40 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 05:04 mouzIllusion wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win.
What is your point that noone has force anyone to play the game? Thats not really relevant. Also where do you get that non-korean pro's dont want to win? They practise alot and invest much in their gaming career. Yes less than their Korean counter parts, however:
What some people apparantly think they should do is not only invest their current life completely into it, but also invest their future. And quite frankly if that is what it takes for non-Koreans to compete with the best Koreans, then I hope they never do it. Sure it can be nice for viewers, but it is simply not worth it to throw away your education for your 1-2 years of fame.
Next is the question, can you really say so easily the difference is because Koreans practise more? Spending more hours playing games doesn't mean you improve your skill faster. As a related example, I see Chinese PhD students make more hours than their European counterparts. Even after we substract the time they sleep on their keyboard. But I wouldn't say their output is higher. I also am not saying it is lower, just that spending more hours doing something isn't always the solution.
I think it is mainly a combination of culture and infrastructure, where culture is the most important one. Yeah there are some team houses outside of Korea, but Korea itself is completely centered around Seoul. The European ladder is slightly larger than the Korean ladder, but those players are way more dispersed.
But the main thing I think is the cultural thing, where non-koreans are less likely to see pro-gaming as a valid career path. And I cannot blame them for it.
@Rhaegal, what exactly is your goal with that comment? If it was mindlessly insulting someone without contributing anything, you succeeded.
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On July 07 2013 07:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 05:40 neptunusfisk wrote:On July 07 2013 05:04 mouzIllusion wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. I guess the internet makes it easy to talk out of your ass. You basically said a person should sacrifice everything in their life, family, friends, girlfriends, other relationships to try and be the best. Okay it makes sense somehow, you are suggesting every foreigner be like this but guess what, there is only one "champion" in the end and all the people that gamble their whole life on this will be left in the dust. Also please don't talk about players unless you've walked a mile in their shoes, you are so blind and think every player is just a player, everyone has a life too. 30% in practice? 30% on ladder for a week while maintaining 50%+ w/l with startale players. I'm sure demuslim wanted to go but he has other duties in his life and other ways to make more money than just practicing in Korea where it's very crowded with no privacy, unable to speak with the mainland people as well as maybe not being able to adapt to the environment + food? How much thought did you put into this before you smashed your face on your keyboard Let me translate it for you: Noone has forced anyone to play the game. Foreign pros just don't seem to want to win. What is your point that noone has force anyone to play the game? Thats not really relevant. Also where do you get that non-korean pro's dont want to win? They practise alot and invest much in their gaming career. Yes less than their Korean counter parts, however: What some people apparantly think they should do is not only invest their current life completely into it, but also invest their future. And quite frankly if that is what it takes for non-Koreans to compete with the best Koreans, then I hope they never do it. Sure it can be nice for viewers, but it is simply not worth it to throw away your education for your 1-2 years of fame. Next is the question, can you really say so easily the difference is because Koreans practise more? Spending more hours playing games doesn't mean you improve your skill faster. As a related example, I see Chinese PhD students make more hours than their European counterparts. Even after we substract the time they sleep on their keyboard. But I wouldn't say their output is higher. I also am not saying it is lower, just that spending more hours doing something isn't always the solution. I think it is mainly a combination of culture and infrastructure, where culture is the most important one. Yeah there are some team houses outside of Korea, but Korea itself is completely centered around Seoul. The European ladder is slightly larger than the Korean ladder, but those players are way more dispersed. But the main thing I think is the cultural thing, where non-koreans are less likely to see pro-gaming as a valid career path. And I cannot blame them for it. @Rhaegal, what exactly is your goal with that comment? If it was mindlessly insulting someone without contributing anything, you succeeded.
Because I think people that put forth less effort deserve less, I'm insulting?
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On July 07 2013 03:38 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends. If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't.
This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education.
But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro.
I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game.
I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 07 2013 07:52 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 03:38 imareaver3 wrote:On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends. If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't. This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education. But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro. I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game. I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
Don't forget QXC.
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On July 07 2013 07:52 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 03:38 imareaver3 wrote:On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends. If anything, that's the problem. The reason foreigners do so "poorly" is because the standard set by Koreans is too damn high. SC2 pros should not be expected to "give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends." That's ridiculous and exploitative. Compare it to American sports. We don't force high schoolers to drop out of school to be good at high school football (And since many Korean pros are high school-aged, this comparison applies). We even make them meet minimum GPA/etc standards. Sure, high school football players have to train very hard, and sure, the minimum standards are often a farce that lets students graduate as dumb as rocks, but at least protections exist. A high school football player has to attend school. If he's motivated at all, he can graduate with a full high school education. And American pro teams aren't allowed to recruit people straight from high school. I'm not saying the American system doesn't have a long list of issues of its own, but it recognizes that over-training young people for sports of any kind can be exploitative, and it does make some attempts to remedy that. The Korean scene is deeply flawed in that it doesn't. This is not really true. StarCraft and football are not equivalent parallels because football is a man's game. That's why we don't let boys from high school play in the NFL. We're more afraid of some 18 year old kid being crippled by the power of one of the strongest 28 year old men on the planet tackling him hard into the ground. It's not some overwhelming love of education. But the age at which StarCraft pros leave high school is not different from, say, the Williams sisters, who became full-time tennis pros at 14. Tennis enacted age restrictions but in response to too many scandals of abuse by parents and too many kids being burned out by the pressures of being a pro. I will also say that this isn't a Korean thing. Idra gave up college to be a full-time pro. Artosis and Tasteless also both dropped out of college for a shot at professional StarCraft. In fact, Suppy might be the only prominent foreign pro who has prioritized his education with or above StarCraft. I know people will say Stephano, but he isn't getting an education while he's playing the game. I'll agree that Koreans grind out harder than foreigners and that's part of the reason for their better results. But as other posters have noted, I think we need to be more careful before labeling foreigners lazy or saying they don't sacrifice anything for the game.
I would also be careful about labelling Koreans as grinders.
I'd like to address some stereotypes that i don't believe are true
1) Koreans are used to living in small rooms with 10+ people. Yes, Koreans do live in generally smaller rooms but that's because some cities are popular and rent expensive (like london, England where i'm from) but they aren't used to living with 10 other people. Koreans also want and need privacy like every other human being. Koreans have a low birth rate and very small families. You are more likely to find groups/families of 10 or more people living under one roof in america than in korea imo. The reason why koreans have to live together is the issue of cost. I suppose some teams aren't as rich as EG and rent in soeul and other cities are much more expensive than rent in some parts of america. Koreans are more dedicated than foreigners so that's why they tolerate living under one roof. Of course any korean if given the choice would prefer his own apartment.
2) Koreans are so hard working they have no lives no g/f. Everything is dedicated to the game. Answer = no. MC has a girlfriend. Boxer has a fiance (i suppose due to him being an older gamer). A lot of other koreans progamers also have girlfriends just like western and american people (wow i know!)
3) Korean parents are understanding of their kid's desire to be a progamer. Wrong. Korean parents are just the same as any other human parents. Some are liberal and some are strict as hell. Not all parents want their kids to play games for a living.
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On July 06 2013 22:47 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. You think code b players have it easy? I don't think so. I think it's a lot easier for foreigners to get noticed rather than Koreans since the level of competition in Korea is ridiculously high and even getting out of code b is a feat in itself. To get noticed you need to get to the top of the ladder or be an entertaining streamer or get into code b a. Getting top of na is easier than kr Champions have to make sacrifices to win in most cases. A recent exception is polt who is a one man clan who won dream hack beating kespa players while learning English and getting a degree. He might have trained in a team before but he has been solo for a while now and has irl stuff so it shows being a champ is partially having the right attitude and determination. Polt's English has improved so much. That is called determination of a champ. You can't get that from culture.
I didn't say Korean Code B players have it easy, I said it is easier for Korean players to become pro gamers, because of the infrastructure in Korea, talented players get drafted into B-teams, and subsequently get the opportunity to develop by playing with more experienced people. Aspiring pros in the West have no such opportunity. When I said ladder, I didn't mean the Battle.net ladder, I meant the hierarchy in eSports..amateur -> semi-pro -> fulltime professional gamer. I doubt there are more than 10/15 proper full-time SC2 professionals in North America who actually have career potential in eSports. As I said before, a streamer who earns a few hundred dollars a month from streaming and some gear from his semi-pro team is not an eSports professional.
On July 07 2013 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. It's not just about what practice method works for each individual. Top Korean pros don't stream for more reasons than just hindrance to their practice regime. You run the risk of showcasing your builds, play style and tendencies to your opponents. I'm pretty sure Korean pros don't really care enough to study foreigners but they easily could if they wanted. And look to any other sport... do professional athletes video tape or stream their practice sessions? No... because no matter what SaSe says it's not an ideal practice environment. I guarantee most SC2 pros will agree that streaming is not synonymous with rigorous practice sessions. Your reasoning for Koreans having it easier is completely backwards and makes no sense. Climbing the ladder on KR is so much harder than doing it on NA or EU. There's no instant success once you reach a certain rank on the ladder for Koreans. They don't get a free ticket onto a B-team, they earn the respect of other great players by working their asses off and grinding. And you don't think Koreans ditch their lives to make it in SC2? Are you completely oblivious? Korean pros give up schooling and social lives to grind ladder 8-10 hours a day with very little opportunity to visit family and friends.
As I said, I didn't mean the SC2 ladder on battle.net, I meant the eSports hierarchy, and the way an aspiring eSports professional can develop. They don't get a free ticket into a B-team, but there are drafts, tournaments for amateurs, and often Korean amateurs get picked up after being scouted by coaches or on recommendation of players who might meet them on ladder or whom they use as practice partners...it's a whole ecosystem. There is no such thing in the west, not even a hint of it.Yes, some foreigners do get rewarded very well despite not being as good or as dedicated as their Korean counterparts, but this is a really tiny fraction of them. Outside of EG players, and people like Grubby/White-Ra, Western pros do not really get salaries which they can live comfortably on (check the blogs/interviews with PiG, Darkforce, even viOlet - who has a lot of western progaming experience since the Warcraft 3 days - constantly tells people not to choose a career in esports), and this is why rightly so, western pros do not forego their education.
Giving up schooling and social lives is not something good, and it's a pretty stupid life decision. Yes, it's dedication, but it's neither a healthy one, nor a socially productive one. Doing it in the west is also a lot riskier for the simple reason, that you cannot really be truly successful in SC2 unless you move to Korea (with a few exceptions). Ditching your entire life, education, and moving to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to try and become good in a videogame which won't remain relevant in 5-10 years time...wow..would you do it? No one with half a brain would.
On July 07 2013 04:00 habeck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 20:14 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 18:22 mikkmagro wrote:On July 06 2013 18:03 SupLilSon wrote:On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.
The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.
In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn. If they are streaming hundreds of hours a month then you know they aren't practicing that hard. If they play on NA/EU primarily then you know they aren't practicing that hard. Stream and be an entertainer or practice seriously and get tournament results. It's really not a hard concept and I really don't think Koreans have many more opportunities than foreigners. In fact, I'd argue that foreigners actually have a much easier time/more opportunities, and many pros actually seem really lazy/unmotivated compared to their Korean peers. The Koreans don't have any exclusive secrets or resources... they just dedicate more time to training in a harder environment. Obviously this creates better players. Actually, SaSe, undeniably one of the most dedicated foreigner pros, recently said that streaming helps him practice more and for longer because the fact that people are watching him and cheering him on increases his motivation to continue practicing. Also, please note that without streaming, the foreigner SC2 pro community would be doing much worse money-wise. Probably one of the reasons why EG makes their players stream so much. Also, there are fewer foreigner pros than most people think. Just read PiG's post, and tell me whether $100 a month from which travel costs are deductible make for a possible life style choice. Foreigners may have more opportunities, but they're really unstable; on the other hand, the Korean infrastructure allows for a pro-gaming career (to a certain extent - it is not very stable, but much more viable than for someone in Europe/NA, which is why most EU pros try to get their degree at the same time.) Whatever SaSe says and despite his dedication, results speak the loudest. What has he won recently to justify streaming practice as being a preferred method? Lots of Korean pros practice just as long and probably longer without the added distraction of streaming/viewer interaction because they are motivated by results. And no offense to PiG but there are lots of more skilled Korean pros who never get to travel or attend foreign events at all. Most of these foreign pros traveling around to multiple events a year have no realistic shot at winning or even placing. Maybe they need to focus less on how much they get to travel and more on getting in shape to actually win games at these events... It sounds really fucking harsh and obviously most guys just don't have the resources or opportunities to up and go to Korea. However, we've seen time and time again the foreigners who come close to matching the top Koreans are the ones who dedicate uninterrupted (no streaming) time to practice on the KR ladder (Naniwa being the prime example). Unless you're one of the rare latent talents like Stephano, either get your ass to Korea someway or somehow or accept being a step behind. I don't think most of us are in a position to say what practice method works best for someone. SaSe has done very well recently (yes he did lose badly in WCS EU but that's because he was playing from Taiwan on the EU server against Mvp who was in Germany), but he performed well in both the last DreamHack and MLG, placing above quite a few Koreans (defeating Jaedong, ForGG and YuGiOh...) That's what I'm saying though, for foreigners to actually get good, unless you're Stephano, you have to ditch your entire life, get very good backing from your team, and go to Korea - which is a risk in itself, because you still won't get as good a training as a Korean because of the communication problem...On the other hand, Koreans work their way up the ladder, get into B-teams, get all the practice and coaching they need, and voila, they have access to the best training in the world. So yes, it is actually way easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer in SC2, and that's why there are A LOT more pro gamers in Korea than anywhere else combined. Yes, for foreigners its easier to get noticed (by the foreigner community), and they do have more opportunities, but getting a $100 dollars a month from twitch from streaming and a Razer mouse from your team does not make you a pro gamer. Also we're talking from a foreigner perspective here, it's not like we have all the information on what's going on in the Korean amateur/b-teamer scene. Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 19:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 06 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Answer in one word: Infrastructure except we know thats not true anymore. there are at least 6 teams who have or who had set up team houses, and set up some form of coaching etc. only the EGTL house with korean players and a korean coach have actually seen the system work. it says to me its purely on the players shoulders, lack of commitment, lack of shits to give, whatever. but its still down to them to actually want to improve. It's radically different and far from being on the same scale as a Korean house. Also, Koreans have Proleague and GSTL to practice for, so there's much more of a team atmosphere. Foreigners/Koreans in Western team houses just play on ladder, and most of the time, there's just a couple of players from the team, whilst in Korean houses you get 10+ players together with coaches and support staff...I don't think any western team actually has coaches in the team house. Mvp was in Korea when playing in WCS eu, not in germany, dont spread lies
I'm pretty sure he was in Germany, living with MC in Reis' apartment during the RO16 (when he faced SaSe), I would appreciate not being called a liar, mighty mature of you.
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On July 07 2013 08:30 mikkmagro wrote:
As I said, I didn't mean the SC2 ladder on battle.net, I meant the eSports hierarchy, and the way an aspiring eSports professional can develop. They don't get a free ticket into a B-team, but there are drafts, tournaments for amateurs, and often Korean amateurs get picked up after being scouted by coaches or on recommendation of players who might meet them on ladder or whom they use as practice partners...it's a whole ecosystem. There is no such thing in the west, not even a hint of it.Yes, some foreigners do get rewarded very well despite not being as good or as dedicated as their Korean counterparts, but this is a really tiny fraction of them. Outside of EG players, and people like Grubby/White-Ra, Western pros do not really get salaries which they can live comfortably on (check the blogs/interviews with PiG, Darkforce, even viOlet - who has a lot of western progaming experience since the Warcraft 3 days - constantly tells people not to choose a career in esports), and this is why rightly so, western pros do not forego their education.
Giving up schooling and social lives is not something good, and it's a pretty stupid life decision. Yes, it's dedication, but it's neither a healthy one, nor a socially productive one. Doing it in the west is also a lot riskier for the simple reason, that you cannot really be truly successful in SC2 unless you move to Korea (with a few exceptions). Ditching your entire life, education, and moving to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to try and become good in a videogame which won't remain relevant in 5-10 years time...wow..would you do it? No one with half a brain would.
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
In poker terms, Some koreans put all their chips and bet big in sc2. Americans are more cautious and bet less and take less risks.
How exactly can you be the best or even compete with the best if you aren't giving 100% and doing everything in your power to improve as a player?
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language. Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
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I always compare SC2 to pro bodybuilding. In bodybuilding, unless you're a top star with tons of sponsorship or winning competitions, you are not going to be making much money, many won't make a dime. There is a very low chance of becoming a successful bodybuilder, and it is not a very popular sport.
Yet, thousands upon thousands of people are trying to get their pro card. So much hard work and effort, moreso than any SC2 player would ever know, for such little hope of reward.
Why do it then? It's because they have a drive for excellence, for greatness. If the fear of failure is something that plagues your mind, slows you down, or makes you second guess, then you have no business trying to become pro at anything. Go work a 9-5 with the rest of the sheep.
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Its a problem of culture.
In western societies the dignity of man is important, thats why western pros usually dont sacrifice their entire life for this game.
(And if they try to it fails because you cannot train a tiger to run if he is trapped in a cage)
Koreans are used to working as linear as the computer chips they make and thus have no problem to play a game for 14 hours a day from age 15 to 23. But lets be honest, that is a fucking painful life. 1% succeeds, 99% have wasted their youth in a terrible way, gratz!
Its a different topic but we as spectators carry responsibility for the players and I dont think we should reward the Korean system.
We are providing young people incentives to throw away their lives, that has to stop!
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On July 04 2013 06:54 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 06:45 RiSkysc2 wrote:What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions? Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years). But that is nothing that cannot be copied with sufficient commitment. Or how on earth could Polt have won MLG last weekend?
And how do you go about copying it?
How do you build a non-existent teamhouse infrastructure that allows players to focus on nothing but their game while also keeping them decently healthy? Westerners are spread so far apart, and on top of that who would make such a massive investment? What team do you think can put in the resources and effort to make it happen? And not just a "frat house", or indeed merely teammates living together, but a legitimate training facility of sorts?
What about the competitive environment? Korea thrives because there are so many hardcore competitive players. Blizzard are trying to do something similar with WCS, more specifically WCS AM, by bringing in these highly skilled players to up the ante. And yet, if you ask most people in the community, it does nothing but harm. You are putting players in a much more competitive environment than they were before, without giving them the necessary support to remain competitive in said environment.
How do you expect these pros to remain motivated when they're pitted against much tougher opponents without really having the same means of preparing themselves? How do you expect them to keep trying hard when most of them are aware that they won't improve at the same rate regardless? And if someone does have the fiery passion to be the best, well, tough shit. Again, the means to practice to reach the same level are simply not there.
And sure, people love to bring up Polt and Stephano etc, but you must not forget that there will always be outliers, there will always be people who have the talent to require less practice and still succeed. They're not the rule, they're the exception. If you're going to bring up Polt and Stephano as examples of people who don't need Korean training facilities, why not also bring up NesTea and DongRaeGu, two of the most iconic Zergs of Wings of Liberty, both of which admitted multiple times that they don't like practicing and don't practice very much? Why not also bring up Stork, widely considered one of the best BW players of all time (and rightfully so), who has also stated that he practices very little and also plays other games? They're just outliers, not remotely representative of the average player.
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On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one.
I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along.
What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily.
Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't.
NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't.
On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand.
I get the feeling you think I'm American  As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
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On July 07 2013 09:45 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Koreans don't give up their social lives to be progamers. Some do and some don't Some also have g/f like MC for one. I was replying to the person who said that Koreans also ditch their lives to become pros. Take what I say in context x) Also, MC is not on a Korean team. Neither is viOlet really. Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Basically you are saying that esports is not even close to real sports in terms of money you can make so therefore americans don't want to take many risks because the reward isn't worth the risk invested.
In other words, they aren't as determined as koreans. Which is what i've been saying all along. What I'm also saying, is that in general, it is more viable for Koreans than for foreigners, because of the infrastructure in Korea. It's really not that hard to understand my argument: The risk for Koreans is much more acceptable, because the eSports infrastructure in Korea is way superior than anywhere else - no one can deny this, and everyone knows it. Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
America is the place to be for certain sports such as basketball, american football, tennis and you had many Eastern europeans go to live in america who didn't speak english because they wanted to take that huge risk and take that huge gamble in the hopes that one day it will payoff. Yes, the chances are low. Maybe 1 in thousands make it to become a huge tennis star but players who want to be good at the aforementioned sports have to go to America or Spain (tennis) to make it big usually.
Many sports stars present and former made that sacrifice to go to America without speaking 1 iota of english. You just have to accept that for sc2, Korea is the place to be and the best foreigners and the most dedicated like naniwa are willing to go that step further and take that big risk and play to be the best in korea and to also learn the language.
You can't compare someone moving to the US, to someone moving to Korea. Invariably of the quality of the sporting facilities in the US, millions of non-English speakers move to the US simply because it always makes economic sense to do so. It is called (or used to be called) the land of opportunity for a reason. If someone moves to Korea aspiring to develop as an SC2 pro gamer, but for some reason or another, fails to do so, I very much doubt he'll find as easily. Secondly, SC2 is still a far cry from being a solid career choice as tennis or american football or basketball (even though they're not really a solid career choice in themselves)...the game will be outdated and die within a few years time. Tennis won't. NaNiwa can do it because he has financial backing, the vast majority can't. Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 08:49 Xercen wrote:
Btw if you find learning a second language hard then i'd like to mention that most people in europe speak 2 languages. I myself speak 3.
You just stated what everybody knew all along. Foreigners just aren't as determined as Koreans are. You do have the occassional outlier like Naniwa but on the whole American players want it easy. They want home comforts and people to speak english where they live(please go on holiday/vacation if you are one of those people....see other cultures is a great experience) Unfortunately having that and competing with the best in sc2 don't really go hand in hand. I get the feeling you think I'm American As you might notice from my location next to my username, I'm European, and I actually speak 4 languages. I'm also not particularly fond of Americans, but in this case, I think some people here expect way too much. I doubt anyone calling them lazy could do better than them. "Unless you make a horrible 'all-in' life decision with odds stacked massively against you, you're a waste of space." Come on...
I wouldn't call koreans more viable than americans. Winning code B which is incredibly difficult to do nets you a miserly sum of money. Do you really think it's easier becoming a korean progamer with the amount of competition and the level of play there? I think it's much easier to become a progamer on the NA server. You just play ladder until you are recognised..an example of this would be Kane. In korea you need to take progaming certification exams. In America you don't.
I wouldn't call US the land of opportunity. If you don't succeed you have terrible healthcare and you have much less holiday/vacation days than europe etc. Also it is well known that if you are poor in the US you are kinda screwed over. You think moving to the US is cheap? Sorry but not every aspiring sportstar can make it to the US. Their parents prolly had to work 2-3 jobs each working long hours just to even pay the rent. The reason why those sportstars move to the US is because they have better training facilities.
Korea in the sc2 world has better training facilities according to most people. I don't see why progamers have issues moving to korea. It's basically the same predicament eastern europeans have when moving to the us. Language barrier etc. But you need to make a sacrifice in this game.
I'm fine with americans i don't dislike them. And people who have the similar mindset as me in this argument do not expect too much from foreigner progamers. What we want is transparancy and honesty. Not nonsense and excuses such as
1) can't move to korea because i can't speak korean and i need my own apartment
2) I don't like korean food (korea does have other foods)
3) Koreans have better training facilities and coaches therefore we can never beat them they are too good. Tell that to stephano and naniwa. They did well without it.
4) Koreans have no life but westerners are busy 24/7 going to parties and dating 5 girls at a time while doing amazingly fun stuff so anything that changes that means it is a big risk and sacrifice therefore forget about it. America is perfect and the best country and going to any other country and learning any language other than english is too hard.
5) Koreans have better genes than us. They have 500 apm naturally
6) Everytime i lose a game i lose internet and hope for mankind. Therefore everytime an american loses to a korean he loses the will to success and slowly after several losses becomes a zombified human devoid of hope. This is why we need our own american only tournaments so we can play vs similar skill people and have an overrated mental picture of our skill level.
I don't expect much from foreigners. American and European. I just want no more excuses and nonsense. If some players don't want to make certain sacrifices then that's totally fine. Just don't complain about koreans being better if they are willing to make sacrifices while foreigner progamers aren't willing to make sacrifices.
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I think at least speaking for America, the reason that we suck in comparison is the culture. Gaming is not accepted as a healthy hobby. More so computer gaming. Playing Xbox is even more respectable. Sitting on the couch watching Glee is more acceptable. Its sad but true. The next thing is that Americans care a lot about money. Most of our smart people will not play games but follow the path their parents lay out for them. Our most potential players probably never even played the game. Same thing as soccer. Our best athletes are playing Football, Basketball, and Baseball.
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On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.
The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good.
Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
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On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)?
exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
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On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
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On July 07 2013 12:41 DBS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend. What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
EG.Puma, took a while though. But yeah, I think he retired didnt he? I dunno if he just lost motivation and stuff but that can probably be argued
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On July 07 2013 12:41 DBS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend. What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team?
http://aligulac.com/players/57-GanZi/
http://aligulac.com/players/38-TheStC/
http://aligulac.com/players/82-Oz/
http://aligulac.com/players/36-MC/
http://aligulac.com/players/35-Ryung/
http://aligulac.com/players/28-MMA/
http://aligulac.com/players/126-PuMa/
http://aligulac.com/players/106-aLive/
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On July 07 2013 12:55 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 12:41 DBS wrote:On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend. What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team? http://aligulac.com/players/57-GanZi/http://aligulac.com/players/38-TheStC/http://aligulac.com/players/82-Oz/http://aligulac.com/players/36-MC/http://aligulac.com/players/35-Ryung/http://aligulac.com/players/28-MMA/http://aligulac.com/players/126-PuMa/http://aligulac.com/players/106-aLive/
Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung?
I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed.
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On July 07 2013 13:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 12:55 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 12:41 DBS wrote:On July 07 2013 12:38 Rhaegal wrote:On July 07 2013 11:32 DBS wrote:On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers. all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough? i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion? er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today... it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed. ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion? When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice. forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS. Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water". Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server. Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion. Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain. The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing. The only foreigner who could consistently beat koreans in the later years of WoL, Stephano, has admitted to only being in SCII for the money, and is retiring because he's saved up enough to go to med school. Clearly you can be trying to make money and still be very very good. Also, when you say that koreans who go to foriegn teams perform worse, what about taeja (who performed so much better on Liquid than he did on slayers) Hero (who has been a top korean for a very long time while on liquid) violet (who actually became less successful since AZUBU became a team) or polt (who is still in tip top form while being teamless)? exceptions that prove the rule, my friend. What koreans have fallen off massively since moving to a foreign team? http://aligulac.com/players/57-GanZi/http://aligulac.com/players/38-TheStC/http://aligulac.com/players/82-Oz/http://aligulac.com/players/36-MC/http://aligulac.com/players/35-Ryung/http://aligulac.com/players/28-MMA/http://aligulac.com/players/126-PuMa/http://aligulac.com/players/106-aLive/ Wait, OZ was on a Korean team? Is FXO a Korean team? Also, where is the fall off? Is MC on a a foreign team? Didn't Puma win a few events on EG and then start losing? Wasn't MMA team-less due to the Slayers non-sense for a while and didn't win anything? Same with Alive and Ryung? I am not feeling any of these examples as compelling evidence of anything except that its hard to win forever. And it's even harder to win when your kicked out of your team house and living on your own until TB picks you up and buys you a bed.
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