Foreigners and their invisible handicap. - Page 7

On July 06 2013 09:01 i zig zag around you wrote:
is op even active in this discussion?

On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:

er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...

On July 06 2013 09:07 Rhaegal wrote:
Excuses piled on top of excuses. If you aren't prepared to make sacrifices you deserve nothing. Until foreigners learn this, they will never be more than walkovers.

On July 06 2013 09:14 i zig zag around you wrote:


it should matter. "diddywhop" claims that foreigners have "an invisible handicap", it should be mandatory for him to contribute to the discussion he started. it seems to me that "diddywhop" didn't think this through before he made a thread about it, and now he's bailed.

how you expect to run with the wolves come night if you spend all day sparring with the puppies?

On July 06 2013 08:57 Waise wrote:
so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.

if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy


first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture"

to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?

You said, "foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit."

"to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture?"

On July 06 2013 09:04 Waise wrote:

er, does that matter? i'm relatively new here, so if there's some rule against posting in a thread where the OP isn't posting, sorry. but i was replying to a post someone else just made today...

On July 06 2013 09:17 Waise wrote:

all that's being said is that foreigners sacrifice more than koreans do in order to make it in progaming because there is less cultural support for progaming and fewer resources available to them. no one is trying to say "demuslim is just as good as innovation because his culture screwed him over," but saying that people from one area have different conditions from the people in another area is a useful observation to make, especially if there is an interest in "expanding" the scene, so to speak

as a thought experiment: most people who follow baseball agree that there is a huge amount of talent coming from latin america, especially the dominican republic and cuba. but an overwhelming majority of the top players and the all-time greats are still homegrown americans. this is a situation which appears to be changing recently and rapidly (albert pujols, for example), but it's changing explicitly because americans have invested money in improving baseball infrastructure and scouting in those areas, which seems like a pretty good analogue for what's being said here about foreign infrastructure for starcraft. would you discount the issue of infrastructure in baseball and say that prior to recent developments, caribbean players simply weren't trying hard or sacrificing enough?

i think an important thing to remember is that quantity is a factor here as well, not just quality. let's say 1 in 1,000,000 human beings has the potential to be code S level at starcraft if they play it. OK, that's great, but they have to become serious, competitive players in order to realize that potential (which means practicing and studying the game as well as having talent). if you take a sample of a million koreans, more of them would be willing or interested in trying to become starcraft progamers than a million americans, and plain and simple that's because of cultural conditions. it's a numbers game, it's sociology, not excuses


ah ok i wasn't sure if you were chiding the OP or chiding people for carrying on the discussion

On July 06 2013 09:37 Xercen wrote:



I said the opposite. I don't think it's cultural. Of course all my points are assumptions since i don't have any concrete data that shows with any degree of certainty why koreans are doing better than americans and europeans on the whole. Nobody as far as i know has that data. It's just assumptions vs assumptions.

1) it's not genetics because naniwa is not korean and he has shown good results in previous gsl and at recent dreamhacks. Of course this is only one example but most people are unlikely to suggest that koreans are better genetically than other humans for obvious reasons.

2) It's not culture because polt is a one man team and he won dreamhack in a field that contained a lot of great players including korean kespa trained players who have been trained in a better environment than him. Of course that again is only 1 example but korea doesn't really have a huge sc2 culture. It has gsl and that's it. America/europe has a lot more tournaments so you can argue that america/europe has a bigger sc2 culture than korea. I mean the biggest sc2 website is teamliquid which is american.

I don't understand what u r saying about committment. Americans/europeans don't want to fully commit to sc2 because the risks outweigh the rewards. Simple as that.



I believe the reason koreans are more determined is because they are poorer than the us and eu on an individual basis. They don't have anything to fall back on so that's they really put everything in. Americans have cheap food. Cheap petrol. Cheap rent. Koreans generally don't have that.
I don't think being poor is a culture.
Maybe that is what drives the korean ambition. The ambition to do well because they are poorer than americans. Maybe a cultural factor could be family. Koreans generally have a stronger family unit than americans, so their desire to help their parents etc could be incredibly strong. But that might be cultural and also it might be just because they are poor. How can we separate the two?

I have no idea. but if you can give me concrete statistics and irrefutable proof of culture being the reason why koreans are doing better then i'll be more than happy to read it.

I mean people can list down perceived cultural influences that apparantly make koreans great such as

1) family unit
2) hardworking people
3) teamhouses and coaches

but americans also have teamhouses and coaches. I believe americans work much longer hours than europeans do and have much shorter holidays. so they are hardworking.

family unit? depends on the family. Can't say every korean family is a strong unit.

I mean i look at EG and TL and their entire roster is korean born except for snute. Now. How come you can't get a team full of foreigners who are living and training in korea for a few years?

I heard EG and i assume TL pays great salaries so surely setting up a foreigner team in the proleague with non korean players can't be so difficult?

But how come only snute has gone to korea and no other foreigners? like demuslim etc?

if you are truly committed to being the best then you need to live in korea no questions asked.

yes it's a huge step but naniwa did it and he is by far the best foreigner atm with stephano.

I do apologise for my writing guys. Now that i think about it there could be cultural reasons and other reasons i.e being poor that could be a factor but who determines which factor is the most prominent? i wish we had stats but nobody has any stats only assumptions

On July 06 2013 10:21 plogamer wrote:


Polt was trained in Korea in teamhouses before he came to the U.S. He has fundamentals that he already learned in Korea. And without a professional coach, I don't know if we will see the same result from Polt in tournaments like GSL where a lot of effort goes into reading opponents. Analyzing opponent's vods must take serious time and effort!

On July 06 2013 10:20 Rhaegal wrote:



When EG-TL house in Korea was announced, Demuslim said he "wasn't sure" if he was going to Korea. Then he decided against it. Is that the mindset of a champion?

When Illusion went to Korea he almost quit SC2 because he was winning less than 30% in practice.

forGG said his foreign team was much more relaxed and less demanding than on oGS.

Foreigners don't sacrifice more. They are lazy. They practice less and are less willing to commit 100% effort into becoming a champion. Watch when Koreans stream and compare it to foreigners. Koreans instantly que up for the next game, while foreigners check their twitter and facebook, and the tried and true "brb getting a glass of water".

Any time a foreign pro is on here or reddit crying about what's holding foreigners back, it's less time they are spending training. Aww, there's a language barrier in Korea and you'll miss your wittle famiwy? Fine. Be content with mediocrity. Look at the foreigners who put in the effort. Naniwa, TLO, Sen. Compare that to the players that are content with twiddling their thumbs and laddering away on NA server.

Look at the Koreans that went to foreign teams. Did they get rewarded for less effort? Nope. They earned more money, sure, but if money is your primary focus for pro gaming then don't expect to do well. No one who pursues something purely for financial reasons become the best. They pursue it because they have a passion for it. Because they want to rise to the top and be crowned champion.

Why aren't more foreigners trying to get into Korean team houses? Why do foreigners practice less than Koreans? Go to SC2ranks and look at the number of ladder games of NA GM's and KR GM's. It's a hilarious comparison. Until foreigners practice as much as Koreans they have no room to complain.

The "no motivation" argument is utter rubbish. If you don't have the willpower to train and force the best out of yourself then you deserve nothing.

On July 06 2013 12:16 contv wrote:
I think a lack of infrastructure (mainly, inability to play on the korean ladder where there is tougher competition) is a contributing factor to foreigners' poorer performance compared to koreans, but not underlying cause. That underlying cause is culture - if you go to most (developed) asian countries such as South Korea, or Japan, you will notice that it is normal for parent's children to remain dependent on them and live in the same house well into the twenties until they have finished university and obtained a job. Part of this involves showing continued respect to your parents, doing chores etc. It is considered quite rude to decline an invitation to do something together from someone older than you such a parent or family friend without good reason ('I don't feel like it' or 'maybe next time' doesn't cut it). Although only one example, I have witnessed this first hand when I went on exchange and stayed with a korean family who had a 25 yo daughter still living with the family.

Now, I'm not saying that this familial situation doesn't occur in Western countries, but being from Australia myself, it's not uncommon for a kid to want to move out as soon as they're 18, live in college, go partying a lot, just generally do whatever you want. Although I'm overgeneralizing and both extremes occur in both Western and Eastern cultures, considering that most progamers are of the 18-22 (young adult) range, I think it's easy to see the general difference and how it impacts the skill levels of koreans vs foreigners. Point being, and I'm being very general again, we as westerners value independence a lot more than koreans.

Consider Kespa teams' transition to sc2 for example. The Kespa teams transitioned to sc2 all at once, sometime in 2012. It can be presumed that they did not have immediate practice partners with the eSF players who were undisputedly the best at the time. So how have they caught up so quickly and surpassed most of the eSF players? The only infrastructural advantages they had over foreigners were: a) access to korean ladder; b) very disciplined training regimes, coaching, inter-team support (presumably). Now someone might argue that the kespa players, coming from many years of brood war, already had developed amazing mechanics and that facilitated their extremely fast rise to the top. And that's most likely true, but what I think is important to realize is that those mechanics came as a result of their culture emphasising qualities such as discipline, accepting advice from those older than you (coaches) etc. Artosis once said that if you join a kespa team, the first thing they do is analyze your mechanics and force you change how you do certain actions to be more efficient/fast. This is an infrastructural advantage (having someone with expertise give you concrete advice on what to change) but it wouldn't be an advantage at all unless it was actually implemented into your play.

How would a player like naniwa, stephano, demuslim, or the now retired idra respond to that kind of environment? Or more generally, would most foreign players appreciate and make good use of being told when to wake up, how many hours they have to train, when lunch time is, when they have to do exercise, when they have to practice with another player in the team for hours to prep that player for an upcoming match, and so on. I would say - probably not. Have any foreigner players expressed a desire for that kind of environment over their current one? As a person from a western culture, it certainly sounds a lot easier and tempting to live an 'EG' lifestyle - the members of EG all basically do whatever they want during the day and frequently go out to gym, dinner, etc. They have far less strict practice requirements than a korean team house, live more independently, and I would venture a guess that that's how they like it.

The reason I think culture is the underlying problem is because the difference in infrastructure is not something that can't be made up for if you have enough commitment as a progamer. Why couldn't more foreign EG or TL progamers stay in the EG-TL house for the past year or so of proleague and practice in that environment? Why were all the foreigner visits so brief? Why does Coach Park's introduction to the EG-TL team coincide with virtually an all korean EG-TL roster - is that style of coaching incompatible with the (overgeneralising) foreign mindset? Finally, why is Snute, who, if you have watched his interviews, has expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his own skill in the past, doing so against korean players? Naniwa also. What about TLO who has taken great steps to change aspects of his life to improve as a player? If you have chosen to be a progamer, and you have little obligations elsewhere (I mean, the progamer sleeping schedule you often hear of is hardly indicative of great responsibilities) there is no excuse for not adapting your lifestyle and habits to those of a champion - unless of course, you are complacent and don't really want to. I know this sounds harsh to the foreign progamers who bring viewers like myself so much pleasure watching and following, but it may just be a hard truth.

On July 06 2013 13:10 Xercen wrote:


As far as i know, American sports teams also look up to their coaches (koreans aren't the only ones who look up to their elders!) They have coaches in the american sport leagues that dictate what they do and how they present themselves in the public domain in the form of contracts. Basically what you are saying is that the korean esports sc2 teams are adopting a mainstream sport's view of coaching i.e NFL, MLB, football NHL etc style of coaching while the american esport sc2 teams aren't doing that. They are basically letting their team members do whatever they want. Because apparantly having an lunch/exercise and playing schedule is way too difficult to follow/manage if you are a member of a professional american esports team according to your post. I don't think having a set routine is detrimental to a player's growth. Maybe if the player wasn't determined then yeah having a easymode schedule would be great.

Basically your point is...oh the koreans esport teams are acting like professional sporting teams and the american esport teams are acting like amateur teams so working too hard is the reason why koreans > americans. Working hard isn't a culture. Plenty of americans work hard

On July 06 2013 17:44 mikkmagro wrote:
I think it's quite offensive for people in here to go on about how lazy foreign professionals are. For one, you have no clue how hard they practice, or how much they sacrifice to get to where they are now, and secondly, the Korean infrastructure, ie, teamhouses and coaches dramatically increases Korean pros' discipline, foreigners obviously don't have this.

The argument that they should move to Korea to practice is ridiculous...why don't you move to a foreign country where no one speaks your language to compete with hundreds of others which have a massive headstart on you (as well as the ability to communicate)...yes, some people such as HuK, Snute, Scarlett or NaNiwa have the will and resources to do it, but very few foreigners actually do, and pretty much none of them are given the resources to do so before they show extraordinary talent.

In my opinion, it is much easier for Koreans to 'get into the pro gaming scene' and actually get good...yes, it is easier for foreigners to get noticed and get 'famous' but people vastly overrate most players' salaries and the money they earn.

On July 04 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:


Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...

Sounds reasonable to... no one with an education. Occam's razor definitely wants a word with you... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.