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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 04 2013 20:42 SsDrKosS wrote: WT# did I just read... Why people start talking about culture and even genes... genes are just right out, but culture can have a big effect. Of course, infrastructure is the biggest thing here, but denying player ethic/culture isn't the best way to go about this. | ||
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
On July 04 2013 20:42 SsDrKosS wrote: WT# did I just read... Why people start talking about culture and even genes... Gotta blame their favourite foreigner not winning against Koreans on something, ya know. | ||
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gosublade
632 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On July 04 2013 19:19 Prog455 wrote: As someone else already said - the Koreans themselves can not even compete with the very top. Furthermore Jaedong, Life and Leenock are certainly not mid tier. Meaning what? Plenty of Koreans who aren't amongst the very best can still remain competitive with those who are. As I said in my previous post, some foreigners used to be able to compete with the very best Koreans. If your argument to foreigners being better now is Naniwa beating Jaedong in a matchup he's notoriously bad at, Naniwa almost beating Leenock and a slumping Life dropping a couple of series, then come on. | ||
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Glorfindel21
France51 Posts
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eronica
175 Posts
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dogmode
Philippines491 Posts
On July 04 2013 07:30 PressItDown wrote: I conclude that scooby doo is the fault at hand! Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up. gaming is big in Korea, its the biggest pro-gaming scene (as compared to other areas/scenes) in the world but even there I don't think that pro-gaming is already considered as being a "legitimate" job. just go check out some interviews/trailers/movies about the daily life of Korean pro-gamers and you'll get an idea that being a pro-gamer in Korean society does not automatically mean acceptance, popularity, or financial security. Korean gamers still take a risky life decision if they decide to pursue pro-gaming. I think this will be the case for a while until eSports gets to a more stable point. It probably won't happen with these current generation of eSports (LoL, DOTA2, SC2, WoT, etc) but maybe some day... links to some vids about korean pro-gamers: Barbie Prime Jaedong + a random average Korean pro-gamer i know there's a bunch more but these two were the only ones i could remember of the top of my head | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On July 04 2013 15:55 Scarecrow wrote: No need to be obnoxious... Did I discount infrastructure? No and neither did the original post. I just said genetics might be a minor factor, which they could well be. My obnoxious response to your argument is because your argument is founded in racism. It is an ignorant and very dangerous thing to do. And frankly I am disgusted. Your guessing genes "might be a minor factor..." Why are we searching for minor factors when we have something that fully explains the difference in performance? Occam's razor is applicable here because we have a reasonable and rational explanation, infrastructure, that has been shown over and over to effect performance in all sorts of competition. China has the best diving infrastructure in the world, and thus the Chinese dominate diving in the Olympics. The United States has the best basketball infrastructure in the world, the thus the United States dominates basketball. Russia has the best infrastructure for chess (the Soviet Union used to subsidize people for play), and thus they dominate chess. That's right Russia a nation with a "lower IQ" dominates a game that is all about thinking! Why don't the Koreans dominate? That is because the first IQ tests were meant to determine whether or not someone is mentally retarded or has a general learning disability. They were never designed to compare the intelligence of two normal individuals. The first IQ test came with an explicit warning on it regarding this. Yet it hasn't stopped people or nations from trying to one up each other or come up with some kind of test to determine intelligence. Yet these tests are all flawed, and there is a strong correlations between performance on IQ tests and malnutrition, education, literacy, life expectancy, inequality and poverty. These issues fully explain why some "races" do better than others on IQ tests. To search for some genetic or inherent factor is to ignore the obvious: if you are poor, undernourished, and have no education you're going to score worse than someone who is wealthy, is nourished and well educated. So nations with high rates of poverty and hunger and poor education systems are going to score worse. Data from across the United States also shows this, when people compare IQ by state. It has nothing to do with genes. Remember that pigs share 98% of the genes humans have. Humans and apes are 99.4% the same genetically. What Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen has done is dangerous, especially with their abject lack of data. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The foreigners just don't train as well as the koreans plus they don't have the proper RTS background. Infrastructure, mentality, concentration of good players, regular broadcasted games etc. all make Korea a much better training ground for talent. | ||
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papapanda
Taiwan326 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
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heartlxp
United States1258 Posts
On July 05 2013 14:16 vsportsguy wrote: I suspect performance enhancing drugs. We need to start testing... ding ding ding, this is definitely 100% of the reason! | ||
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kaos00
United States125 Posts
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that. Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose. It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches. | ||
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On July 05 2013 17:15 Xercen wrote: so what is it you are actually asserting? either you think koreans are genetically superior at committing to achieving tasks or you are saying korean culture is more tailored to that sort of commitment - at least that sort of commitment to starcraft. if you're saying it's cultural, that's the exact same thing as saying that foreigners are at a disadvantage because cultural influences are not the responsibility of any individual. it's not meant to take anything away from koreans, nor to give anything to foreigners, just an observation of conditions.Most foreigners lack commitment. Stephano himself said he only played for money and Stephano doesn't have the commitment to be a full time gamer over a lengthy period. He imo has burnt out but he is still good enough for wcs eu 2nd place on talent alone. Most foreigners lack the commitment to go to Korea to train under the teamhouse regime for an extended period of time. The only foreigner who has fully committed himself to becoming better in recent memory is jinro and naniwa; with naniwa being fully committed and also with the talent to back it up as recent results and historical gsl results have shown. Look at tennis. It is dominated by Eastern European players because they are hungry for success. They barely speak any English yet are willing to go to America to live and train there for years if not their entire lives. That is true commitment. They even learn English while they are there! There are very few Americans remaining in tennis except serena and Venus because somewhere down the line the american junior tennis players lack commitment. America has the best tennis facilities but not the most committed players. Same as in sc2. If you want to be truly great you have to go to Korea and train. Learn Korean and dedicate yourself mentally and physically. It's extremly hard but the Eastern Europeans do it in tennis and they dominate tennis nowadays. If you want to view e-sports on the same level as sports such as tennis then the Americans and Europeans need to take it more seriously and be fully committed and go out of their comfort zone. Look at naniwa. He is very bad mannered but you cannot call him lazy nor can you say he lacks commitment. Naniwa is an e-sports pioneer because he is going to Korea to live breathe Starcraft 2. He is truly dedicated to sc2 and his results reflect that. if foreigners "don't commit" there has to be an underlying reason, and i hope we all agree the reason is not genetic. the purpose of making that observation is ostensibly to understand why conditions are different so favorable conditions can be made available to people in all areas of the world. saying they "don't commit" isn't an insight into conditions because you still need to explain why it is that they don't commit. please understand i'm not trying to insert gender politics into this discussion, but look at women in positions like politics, science, even gaming. once, there was a time when women were not active in those fields, and it was considered that they just weren't "for women" or that women weren't good at them. the reality of the situation was/is that women trying to break into a field dominated by men were subject to more scrutiny, criticism and disrespect, which reduced the incentive for them to try. in starcraft, foreigners seem to lack incentive because of culture. the less incentive you have, the more you have to commit. and again, not trying to start a debate about feminism, just using what i think is an apt analogy Also, I tend to notice that Americans and Europeans nerdrage a lot more than koreans which might be a partial reason why they aren't as successful as Koreans because they put more emphasis in winning a game rather than learning the game. Koreans play to learn win or lose. Americans and Europeans play to win or rather play to not lose. It's just a poor attitude. Americans Europeans don't want to go to Korea to live train and their excuse is I don't speak Korean yet ironically in sports you have many athletes who speak no English at all going to the us to play sports or work a job and that's the bottom line. Determination. Not genetics. Not teamhouses. Not culture. Not coaches. first, i'm not sure i would believe offhand that "foreigners nerdrage more," and i wonder how you would go about proving that scientifically. i'm sure you can understand if i don't accept your anecdotal experience as hard evidence. and once again, everything you describe/claim about foreigners must be tied to culture unless you are claiming the difference is genetic. large samples of people from a particular area don't simply act a certain way for no reason, and the reason is usually referred to as "culture" to put it all another way: if you're saying "koreans are more determined," but you claim that determination is not related to genetics nor culture, what IS it related to? do you really think the randomness of the universe just assigned koreans a disproportionate amount of starcraft determination 15-20 years ago when these guys were born? how can you separate "koreans being well-determined" from culture? | ||
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