On July 04 2013 14:22 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Certainly a large part is to do with the training methods that the Koreans employ. However, I think we would be ignorant if we also didn't acknowledge the possibility of some kind of genetic advantage here (political correctness aside). It is well known that Koreans have one the highest IQs in the world.
Thus, I would hypothesize that it is three main factors that make Korean players the best:
1. Training Methods 2. High IQ (2nd highest in the world) 3. Culture - Working hard is ingrained in Korean culture, Also, sports aren't that popular due to lack of space, but PC Rooms are everywhere
lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games.
black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC.
ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE
Edit - Thought I'd throw in some propaganda for good measure:
"Genes have nothing to do with it"
"Anybody can do anything they set their mind to."
"You can be anything you want to be!" -
koreans don't have IQ any different from any other east asians, and the work ethic is largely a confucian ideal that isn't unique to korea at all, it's pretty similar in all eastern asian countries. the average iq difference between eastern asians and whites is 5, which isn't statistically significant.
IQ also isn't linearly correlated with how well you perform on any given task. this isn't really an effort to be PC, its just like basic stats and common sense.
my original example was a pretty decent one, only african americans are really well represented in pro basketball and football, not black people as a whole lol. african immigrants are actually the highest amongst all immigrant groups for attaining a college degree, and on average whites finish college faster than asian americans despite IQ differences. in fact income level is a much stronger predictor for educational attainment than any other measure currently in the united states.
and while its obvious that a person with an IQ of 100 is highly unlikely to be to be able theoretical physicist, we have examples like feynman, who did not have an exceptionally high IQ. there are many studies that show IQ is not a strong predictor for many things that people as a whole consider 'successful'. IQ isn't even predictive of wealth, although it is predictive of income.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
Again, so were going to discount their massive advantage in infrastructure and follow the theory that a slight advantage in genetics is going to lead to Korean dominance...
The point here is that whether or not genetic factors play any role is completely overshadowed and overpowered by the Korean infrastructure, which fully explains the Korean domination much simpler than genetics, and the infrastructure argument has been proven in other sports for centuries.
No need to be obnoxious. You failed at comprehension, called me uneducated and then linked a commonly known theory from wikipedia -.- Did I discount infrastructure? No and neither did the original post. I just said genetics might be a minor factor, which they could well be. You're the one discounting theories. Saying infrastructure "fully" explains Korean domination is more unreasonable than anything I said.
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction.
Is this a joke?
So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really?
We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump.
You must be trolling, because you got me.
10/10
North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports.
australians are unusually dominant in sports for olympics, it has nothing to do with 'aussies are genetically more endowed with better athletic genes'. give me a fuckin break, it was a british penal colony.
We can sit here and talk skill all day long. But coming from the FGC(Fighting Game Community) I am familiar with Koreans and Japanese domination. US players managed to eventually get over this struggle as they become more familiar with Korean and Japanese players. But the biggest factor of this was/is confidence.
SC2 players are overly well mannered; to a fault. Skill is important sure, but even more important is mental fortitude. Foreigners aren't as I would say cold blooded. Ice in their veins.
Only one foreigners has mentally stood out above all. And that would be of course Stephano. He isn't consumed by the pressure of the stage when challenging Koreans. He's the most mentally fortified foreigner I have observed.
Very rare have I actually watched a game where a foreigner lost to a Korean because he got outplayed. Usually, it's obvious why they lose. And it has less to do with skill, but straight up choking.
Too many mental mistakes. Desperate all in tactics and the like. Foreigners need to stop placing Koreans on this pedestal. And start acting like professional gamers. If you want to win, you give your opponent the respect he deserves in so much as not underestimating them, but your course should be to annihilate them. No mercy.
Coming from the FGC, I would say Foreigners in SC2 when it comes to facing Koreans are soft.
On July 04 2013 15:58 KingAce wrote: The biggest reason foreigners lose to Koreans.
They choke.
We can sit here and talk skill all day long. But coming from the FGC(Fighting Game Community) I am familiar with Koreans and Japanese domination. US players managed to eventually get over this struggle as they become more familiar with Korean and Japanese players. But the biggest factor of this was/is confidence.
SC2 players are overly well mannered; to a fault. Skill is important sure, but even more important is mental fortitude. Foreigners aren't as I would say cold blooded. Ice in their veins.
Only one foreigners has mentally stood out above all. And that would be of course Stephano. He isn't consumed by the pressure of the stage when challenging Koreans. He's the most mentally fortified foreigner I have observed.
Very rare have I actually watched a game where a foreigner lost to a Korean because he got outplayed. Usually, it's obvious why they lose. And it has less to do with skill, but straight up choking.
Too many mental mistakes. Desperate all in tactics and the like. Foreigners need to stop placing Koreans on this pedestal. And start acting like professional gamers.
Coming from the FGC, I would say Foreigners in SC2 when it comes to facing Koreans are soft.
Lol, never seen something so wrong in my life. 5% of the time a foreigner may choke by going full foreigner, but 95% of the time when a korean wins it's because they outplayed the foreigner and are just more skilled than them. I can't believe you actually tried to make an argument that no skill gap exists b/w foreigners and koreans, but foreigners just lose because they choke.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
A team house with a dedicated coach to improve their skills and maid to do the housework.
This communitys way to talk about players as "foreingers" and talking about them as if they are handicapped children is toxic as F'ck for getting new players.
If you read through any post about korean players vs international players, on TL.net, /r/starcraft, B.net Forum, it's gonna sound racist as hell, and some of the posters really are just racist as hell.
EDIT: Btw, we lack a very important thing: Infrastructure. Just in my country alone, Denmark, we have just ONE sc2 team thats worth anything(The one Bunny and Sonder is on).
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
A team house with a dedicated coach to improve their skills and maid to do the housework.
lag free high quality internet to the most competitive ladder, and a whole host of practice partners that can practice and willing to practice specific situations with you over and over. KESPA teams have b-teamers that will literally grind specific builds with you over and over and over again. all of those players are definitely korean grandmaster level+ as well.
NA/foreign players do very little of this, even ones on pro teams, they mostly just ladder and sponsorship (being a pro) is just money for tournaments, maybe a salary, and some gear/free things.
There is no mystery to solve here infrastructure and regime trump all.
Team A in any sport vs Team B will always win if Team A has a proper training structure and Team B doesn't.
Genetics, confidence, lucky charms all have much to do about nothing. People just like to over complicate an issue for the sake of sounding intelligent or as if they've had some miracle insight that isn't already plainly obvious.
i remember the pisa test. Korean pupils were much better in maths than western countries. But this has nothing to do with the size of the brain or genetics. Its just the mindset. If you would ask a korean about maths he/she would tell you"you need to work hard, practise, practise, practise, than you can make it", while western pupils responded "maths is just not my thing, doenst suit me, i can do better in other things".
this applies to starcraft as well. Foreigners simply dont have the mindset and do not train hard enough. Thats why they fail. There are a few exception of course.
I am convinced if foreigns would stop complaining that koreans are better and about the infrastructure etc.. and just start practice, practice, practice, they would get similar results.
Some are willing to sacrifice a lot of time to be gosu1337, some others sacrifice less time. Guess who comes on top. I wonder if Koreans are asking themselves why they're not on par with Europe or South America in football. Exactly the same deal.
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
naniwa was training in the very same teamhouse as JD before the tournament
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans?
As someone else already said - the Koreans themselves can not even compete with the very top. Furthermore Jaedong, Life and Leenock are certainly not mid tier.
On July 04 2013 10:44 PiGStarcraft wrote: I keep seeing this question pop up and hundreds of polemicists jump in to give their own answers. A lot of it seems just made up from vague impressions. This kind of makes sense to me because first coming into eSports watching GSL I had the impression that everyone was paid bucketloads because "They're on TV!" and quite a few other silly ideas. So onto answering this thread:
No-one knows how hard foreign players play. No-one really knows if there is a different mentality or anything like this. It's all conjecture and you can argue forever in circles about it.
There is one thing that is purely objective that we can look at to make OBVIOUS this "invisible" handicap.
MONEY
There is more money for SC2 in Korea. This is undisputable fact. The key reason is:
- Over 100 sc2 pros living in teamhouses with all their costs covered --> This is a HUGE cost
That's it. They have their living costs covered. Even though there are more small Several thousand dollar tournaments here and there for foreigners which Koreans don't get, you can't possibly compare that to the massive cost of housing and feeding 100+ people.
An issue with eSports has always been that there is a lot of bullshit, scamming and lying to try and inflate people's worth and gain sponsorship or artificially grow the scene. This means that a lot of people new to the scene hear about foreign progamers and that they are "paid a salary", and that Koreans all want to join EG because "foreign teams have more money". People then assume this means foreign progamers receive more support then Korean progamers. I think this is probably accurate, but only for the top ~30 foreigners. A lot of the time these progamers also don't have a teamhouse so despite getting paid MORE, when you factor in living costs the difference is not always so huge.
Some more points:
Many teams refer to their players "salary" and yet deduct travel costs from this so it is artificially inflated Salaries are often between the $1200-2000/year mark. That's right as little as $100/month. Many pro players receive no salary and only travel support IF their team has faith they will do well.
So when you hear the words "progamer" don't just assume they are one of the select few foreign players who earn enough to pay rent and feed themselves. Many are hoping they can make a breakout performance, because despite having worked really hard for a long time and getting good at the game, being good will get you zero support in the foreign scene. There will always be a large window of time where the player needs to work the balancing act of devoting themselves to improving whilst working part-time to pay rent, or whilst being in conflict with their family who see no money coming in from the players huge amount of time put in, and hence heavily criticise playing the game.
On the other hand you have a very healthy, sporting community in Korea where young players, whilst still needing to devote a lot of time and effort with no support to get "good", are often picked up based on dedication and improvement, not just suddenly doing well at an MLG. These players instantly get a roof over their head and are allowed to focus just on the game in a house full of like-minded players, all working to the same goal. In this environment they excel. Foreign players who have shown the same improvement and dedication are often offered $100/month salary (or none) and one flight across the country to an event a year. Their team environment introduces them to practice partners, but everything is still done online and it doesn't come close to sitting side-by-side and talking about and practicing the game all day. This isn't saying the foreign scene is horrible and bad. It's just not really professional yet, until you reach that tip-top level of 30 or 50 players that are can afford their rent based on playing the game. Even there at the top, you don't get that amazing environment to live in, and so it's very hard for the foreign scene to ever have as many good players as Korea.
I hope this clears up some of the misinformation going around about the differences between the scenes, and gives a decent answer to the question in the thread. I'd say I'm qualified to answer it as a result of playing as a professional gamer, and part-time coach, for the last 2 years, supporting myself entirely through the game. In that time I've lived with the Prime team in Korea for 1 month and traveled a lot talking to a lot of other "progamers" so I know what many peoples situations are and have been shocked myself when learning how little even quite famous streamers and players are sometimes paid. It's growing, very fast, but don't get fooled by the word "progamer" guys, it just means you're pretty good at this game, not raking in the cash.
quoting, cause you all are arguing about stupidities like genes etc and it seems none of you read a post from the actual progamer, that is doing quite well recently...
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
You're delusional. There are like twenty premier tournaments a year and you choose to pick a couple bo3 that support your argument.
MLG Spring Championship - Polt Homestory Cup - Taeja Dreamhack Open Summer - StarDust WCS Season 1 Final - INnoVation WCS Europe - MVP WCS Season 1 America - Hero Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Leenock MLG Winter Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Championship -YoDa IEM Season 7 Katowice - First Homestory Cup 6- Snute WCG 2012 - PartinG IGN ProLeague Season 5 - Leenock Iron Squid II - Life 2012 Dreamhack Open - Winter - HerO IEM Season 7 Singapore - Sting 2012 Battle.net World Championship - PartinG 2012 MLG Fall Championship - Life Electronic Sports World Cup 2012 - MaNa 2012 Dreamhack Budapest - Nerchio (against Rain, StC, Sage only) Dreamhack Open Valencia - Taeja NASL Season 4 - HerO 2012 MLG Summer Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Cologne - MVP ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - Taeja TSL 4 - Creator 2012 MLG Summer Arena - Taeja Homestory Cup V - Nerchio 2012 Dreamhack Open Summer - MaNa 2012 MLG Spring Championship - DRG 2012 Spring Arena 2 - viOLet 2012 Dreamhack Stockholm - Thorzain NASL Season 3 - Stephano IGN ProLeague Season 4 - aLive 2012 MLG Winter Championship - MKP IEM Season 6 World - MC Iron Squid 1 - MMA 2012 MLG Spring Arena - MarineKing ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - Polt IEM Season 6 Sao Paulo - viOLet IEM Season 6 Kiev - MMA Homestory Cup 4 - MC
Won by foreigners: ECG World Cup (?), Homestory Cup 5 and 6, Dreamhack Bucharest, Dreamhack Open Summer, Dreamhack Stockholm, NASL Season 3
There hasn't been a single premier tournament win for a foreigner in HotS, or even 2013.
So yes, Naniwa beat Jaedong's legendarily bad ZvP and beat Dear in a PvP. Sjow took a bo3 off Life after Life has played like 25-30 sets against foreigners without losing. MC has unfortunately been performing poorly. Definitely signs of foreigners not being dominated, right?
I am not trying to argue against the fact that Koreans are indeed doing far better than foreigners in general. My point is that Foreigners are doing better than Koreans now than they used to. Especially compared to BW.
It's a good thing that we have WCS, because with global finals it is going to be easier to measure the progress of foreigners.
On July 04 2013 07:08 iyasq8 wrote: its in their genes, they cant help it.
bullshit. the thing is asians in general are very committed to what they do. take china for instance. in china children get whatever they want to have as long as they get good grades. i can be wrong but asia has always been about discipline and respect. the cultural difference is the thing. koreans commit hours of practice to sc2 a day while foreigners are more lazy. also a korean mostly has a right mindset. when they lose a laddergame they go on again. while foreigners sometimes take some time to analyze what they did wrong and talk to their viewers etc. things like this makes foreigners more populair but koreans better.
again i can be wrong but this is how i always saw it, foreigners can just be as good as koreans as long as they commit. hell stephano was playing very well until he got into EG. its not the EG curse that hit him. it was probably the money, and he got cocky that with little practice he good still be very good. but HOTS proved him wrong.
EPT
