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On July 04 2013 07:00 IntoTheheart wrote:
I think that HuK once mentioned that he didn't have "slaves that [he] could get to play all of these games with [him]."
So I guess to deal with the question, BW in Korea (and I'm assuming that their infrastructure didn't change for SC2) had proteams with practice partners they could go to and get their BOs, their mechanics, and even specific things polished properly as well as other high-level players to play with. Most foreigners can't just call someone up and practice 10 hours straight on a specific map or set of conditions and as such would make the difference pretty profound.
I think foreigners below him would love to be his practice slaves.
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Scooby Doo.
Glad that we finally have found the heart of this problem!
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On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote:
The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans.
A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples:
Dreamhack Open: Stockholm
- Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd
- TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th
- Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th
- Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1
- Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world
Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm
- Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1
- Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament
MLG Spring 2013
- Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0)
- 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice)
I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat):
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long.
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i don't see the issue here. could any1, in short, explain to me what the big deal is?
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On July 04 2013 07:30 PressItDown wrote:
I conclude that scooby doo is the fault at hand!
Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up.
A lot of korean players faced resistance from their parents. Also, Asian parents would rather see their children completing uni and getting a job with standard working hours. Parents act this way because everyone is brought up with this mentality instilled.
Top players do get quite a bit of money and fame from the community. But, in the eyes of non esport fans, playing games for a living is nowhere a positive thing in Asia. What you've said is quite far away from the truth.
Attributing the gap between koreans and foreigners to infrastructure, team houses, etc is like blaming external factors. Like when someone does better than you at an exam and you say its because they didnt have noisy neighbours.
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In reply to the OP, what people object to is that the top 16 of a big tournament like WCS America can end up with 12 Koreans. Koreans still win almost all of the tournaments and the foreigner victories you point out are the exception, not the rule.
I will agree that Korean dominance is exaggerated severely because they're lumped as a group. Foreigners can't compete with the likes of Innovation or Soulkey, but neither can Koreans. It would be like saying "Swiss men have dominated tennis for the last decade". You're not talking about "Swiss men", just Federer. He is not representative of the average Swiss player.
And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
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On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote:
And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
Keep in mind that he used to play for a Kespa team, that being Air Force ACE.
EDIT: He also played two years for Samsung Khan.
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On July 04 2013 06:51 Postman wrote:
The rest of the world can't compete because there isn't as much high level competition forcing constant improvements, nor are there many players training 70 hours a week like the dedicated Koreans do. Anyone who gets the chance to train with the best has a shot at becoming the best, but only Koreans get to train with the best.
Perfect explanation in this post. It's just that simple.
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I think the Koreans are just two or three years more "advanced" than the foreigners. It's like comparing Picard's Enterprise with Kirk's. Picard's has the better technology.
Imagine if a distortion in the space-time continuum transported some mid-GM foreigner back to the days before they had a concept of "timing attack" or "build order". I'm guessing he would win every tournament, though unfortunately I don't have a wormhole to test it.
I once read something about the speed of evolution, and roughly speaking the gist was that the harsher the environment, the faster evolution works. That's why the Krogan are such tough badasses: because they evolved on Tuchanka, a planet that's only barely capable of supporting life. (Sorry to change sci-fi franchise, but it's impossible to resist referencing the Krogan. Fuck the Salarians and their genophage.)
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On July 04 2013 08:19 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote:
And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean. Keep in mind that he used to play for a Kespa team, that being Air Force ACE. EDIT: He also played two years for Samsung Khan.
But looking at his fan club, nobody even noticed he was in the tournament until he got through his group. His fan club's post count doubled in size that weekend. TL's analysis in the preview:
(P)mYi.StarDust: Beatable
Stardust is another Korean who is playing out of Europe, and he is now presumably the best player in Switzerland. However his record since his arrival isn't particularly hot, as he was eliminated from the HSC 7 Europe qualifiers by Bunny. While Stardust may end up like ForGG or Daisy eventually, right now he's looking more like a Real.
On July 04 2013 08:22 GorbadTheGreat wrote:
I think the Koreans are just two or three years more "advanced" than the foreigners. It's like comparing Picard's Enterprise with Kirk's. Picard's has the better technology.
Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
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On July 04 2013 08:33 coverpunch wrote:
Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
Well, much of the technology is inherited from Brood War.
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My hypothesis : we are all a bunch of slackers, and they are good at what they do because they dedicate them fully to a single goal. No bullshit - just practice.
Over time pro-korean teams develop methods to become even more efficient, but at the core lies the fact that they simply dont give in to the temptation of 'free-time'.
So while creating pro-teams outside korea will help foreigners get the right practice, you also have to simply have the willpower to dedicate all your time to this single goal to even think of having a shot at the top.
Occasionally a foreigner manages to beat a korean because either they trained very hard that allowed them to become equal, or the korean has started slacking off on his practice and that has closed the gap.
The latter thing will happen less as long as the korean in question is on a team that offers them a salary or forces them to stick to their rigorous training schedule, however it is still possible for him to get beaten by a foreigner that has worked hard as well (or came up with a very original build - but these will be exceptions).
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It's easier to play sc2 full time in Korea. The average semi-pro can't leave school/ their jobs (if they're smart).
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On July 04 2013 08:38 GorbadTheGreat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 08:33 coverpunch wrote:
Assuming this is true, 2-3 years is already double the technology given the amount of time SC2 has been out. It's even more pessimistic if you consider it's only been 3.5 months since HotS came out.
Well, much of the technology is inherited from Brood War.
in lol and dota asians rip foreigners to shreads to.And lol did not have a succesfull precursor in korea
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United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2013 07:13 Fyodor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote:
The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example). damn you Scooby Doo
The Koreans would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Sidenote: I would like to hear you say that to Artosis.
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do people really believe that the koreans are better players because they are korean? l0l.
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On July 04 2013 08:16 coverpunch wrote:
And that's unfortunate for players like StarDust, who is a relative nobody but wasn't celebrated as much as he deserved for his astonishing win simply because he's Korean.
This isn't true at all? And even if it were, his problem wasn't that he was korean, it was that he:
1. Beat a fan favorite in Jaedong (also a korean)
2. Got an "easier" bracket than he should have, since Life lost to Sjow
3. Plays protoss (which has always been perceived as an easier race, requiring less skill blahblahblah, by a large part of the audience)
4. Used a lot of timing attacks, which the same part of this aforementioned audience has problems against).
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On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote:
The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
Oh god, not the B-word!
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Foreigners are generally not as good as koreans at starcraft because there isnt the same supportive atmosphere in most western countries that exists in Korea to nuture the talent through the team houses. Starcraft is still seen more as a competitive hobby in western nations whilst in korea there would be a lot more people who view it as a legitimate profession and something worthwhile pursuing.
Naturally as the esports scene grows in America, Europe, etc more kids will get into and keep playing RTS games like starcraft and eventually we could end up with a more supportive atmosphere for pro-gamers, but until that happens - the available talent pool of players in korea will always vastly out-number that of foreigners and aside from the occasional out-liers will generally always produce superior players at the top end.
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Of course the existence of teamhouses definitely help koreans to improve at a more efficient rate than foreigners. But there's also a mentality factor. Koreans put in more effort than most foreigners do and thats what makes the most difference.
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EPT
