|
On July 10 2013 15:18 Daswollvieh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations. On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans. I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view. So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make. You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness.
I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
|
On July 10 2013 20:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 15:18 Daswollvieh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations. On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans. I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view. So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make. You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness. I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous".
I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match. 
|
On July 10 2013 21:35 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 20:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 10 2013 15:18 Daswollvieh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations. On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans. I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view. So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make. You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness. I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous". I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match.
Then I think you're even more sorely mistaken, seeing how precocious denotes something that is much better than its lack of maturity would suggest. To be more precise, when a person is precocious, they are much more mature, reasonable and/or realistic in spite of being otherwise fairly young, and certainly much more so than the average in the respective age group.
|
On July 10 2013 22:32 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 21:35 Daswollvieh wrote:On July 10 2013 20:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 10 2013 15:18 Daswollvieh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Xercen, why are still posting? You have nothing to add, repeating the same precocious, uninformed nonsense. Who are you to make any claims on who works hard and who doesn´t? Sure you have the right to voice your opinion freely, but you should also have the dignity to not abuse that right in order to belittle others. You´re merely flinging demeaning speculation about, which is the whole point to begin with, I suppose. If you were, say, a pro-gamer or at least a competitive athlete yourself who achieved success through hard work, without relying on infrastructure at all, then you could make case. As is, you are only getting tangled up further in baseless assumptions and presumptuous accusations. On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Now there is an asian stereotype that shows asians are hardworking. That's wrong ...i know some lazy asians. But i think suppy is just one of the creative hardworking asians so he produces the results and he has also beaten a lot of top tier koreans. I don´t think you know how stereotypes work. We all know the standard "I have lots of gay friends argument". It doesn´t make it cool to stereotype, not even in a supposedly "well-meaning" way. It is always demeaning towards people of that group and is a sign of little experience and a narrow point of view. So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level.
You have no point. You don´t know anything about NA players, besides the games you watch and the results you read. You don´t know how they train, what they think, what mindset they have, how their day works, what they have to worry about. So basically you know nothing relevant to an argument one could make. It is okay to wonder, to speculate, but these self-entitled allegations you make so casually are bad conduct, they are annoying to wade through, contribute nothing but negativity and tend to derail any sensible argument a reasonable person might make. You may think it´s unfair that you get called out on nonsensical discussion, but at some point you gotta know when to stop. It´s not a sign of weakness. I don't think you understand what precocious means. The word you're looking for is probably more along the lines of "presumptuous". I meant a young person stating an opinion about something they lack the maturity and experience to judge or comprehend, made in an effort to appear grown-up. That may have been lost in translation, I didn´t know a better match. Then I think you're even more sorely mistaken, seeing how precocious denotes something that is much better than its lack of maturity would suggest. To be more precise, when a person is precocious, they are much more mature, reasonable and/or realistic in spite of being otherwise fairly young, and certainly much more so than the average in the respective age group.
Haha, dictionary screwed me over.  It says it means both being ahead in development as well as pretending to be. English derp. So what would the latter be? Because in German there´s a word for that, so I figured in English there should be as well having a gazillion words.
|
On July 10 2013 19:39 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Nobody said you have to be fluent to live in korea. But it certainly does help. But if you want to live in another country then it's best to learn the lingo to at least a conversant level. Well yes, that's fine, but that doesn't mean there is no communication problem; there always will be. No one is expecting the Koreans to know English, but even with the player's efforts to learn 'Korean lingo', there is always a barrier to some degree. This has been expressed by all the foreigners who tried the team house approach in Korea. Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Korea is a first world country. Every first world country has decently paid jobs for people if you look hard enough. When i was a teenager i went to a foreign country and got a job at an airport even though i didnt speak their language. English and Chinese are the main languages in the world so if you know either one of them or both then you can find a job in ANY country. It's nonsense if you say you can't find a job. But let's go back to my original point see next section Wait, how are you going to practice 10 hours a day, learn Korean, AND find a job and work enough to pay rent, travel, food etc? I thought we were talking about young, talented teenagers, not Jesus. Most Koreans are hopeless in English, and most people in America and Europe don't speak Chinese or Korean...we're talking about teenagers, who have no job experience, and probably no qualifications either except relatively good at starcraft...some people have trouble finding jobs in their hometown, let alone in Korea. In what foreign country did you find the job? France or Hong Kong (I think you mentioned it earlier)...English is an official language in Hong Kong...and French is the most common second language for British people...so you really cannot compare the two. Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
I already stated the steps he would need to take. I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal?
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
It's what most people who went to Korea did, like for example desRow, but then again a lot of people hate on him despite what he tried to do and the huge amount of time and money he spent in Korea. But it's very, very different to being drafted at some 14 or 15 years of age to a team house like most Korean pros lol...and that's the whole point of it. Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 10:08 Xercen wrote:
Also, i'd like to know what is the difference between US players and EU players since EU players don't live under korean teamhouse conditions yet they are doing miles better than US players. Hence this is another reason why the korean environment is not the main factor.
I think the reason is that EU and Koreans are just hungrier than americans. Americans do train but EU and koreans analyse games in detail much moreso than Americans imo.
So my point is NA players aren't creative or determined enough. Maybe the asian/european/korean culture produces people who are just far more determined but honestly i don't know. Just my 2 cents. But i do know that America isn't producing players who are even on European sc2 skill level let alone Korean skill level. EU also has much better infrastructure than NA. There are basically domestic leagues in every country. There are entry level amateur teams, semi-pro teams, and a good number of fully professional teams (stable companies which have been in eSports for a decade, as opposed to the couple (literally) that there are in NA.) There is also a much deeper and more skilled player pool on ladder in EU.
I think we are going over the same ground.
Throughout history foreigners with no grasp of english have travelled to distance lands and gotten jobs there and founded communities. For example, indians in UK, muslims in many countries, Irish/italians/hispanics in america
Yes it's harder to get a job in a country in which you don't speak the common language fluently but it seems you are trying to make it sound like a mountain that is impossible for anybody to climb which isn't true.
I already posted about the steps a young progamer should take.
I never said the wannabe progamer would go directly to korea. The wannabe progamer would have to get noticed by placing high on the ladder or doing well at mlg open tournaments or some other method. Stream and/or get a sponsorship to earn some money so you can go try out for yr dream in korea. Why not just get a job in america and save some money for your trip to korea. if you got the determination to follow a dream you can get a job in America and save up those dollars!
You need a certain level of skill at sc2 to make it work but if you save up some money in america doing a job to fund your trip/rent/expenses to korea then what is the big deal?
excuse? That americans can't get jobs in Korea and don't have money to pay rent etc? i hope not since i offered a viable solution.
I mean you said so and so doesn't have money but hey i just offered you a solution. Determined people get money and follow their dreams. So do you still have that no money
If the foreigner is really determined they can find a job in their native country (maybe even streaming) and save up money while doing practice. Of course practice will be less but something has got to give when you are trying to becoming a sc2 progamer at it's current state. Ideally, teamliquid should have a amateur progamer of the week list in which a wannabe sc2 amatuer streamer is highlighted in some way.
You keep on making excuses for foreigners but i know many determined people in my life. There are people who have come from extremely poor backgrounds and gone on to become pillars of the community.
1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in.
whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false.
Yes it's very very difficult but that's why we need really determined americans/foreigners to take up the challenge.
This will be my final post to you since i think we are just going over the same ground.
But i do appreciate your side of the debate mikki. Also, with this debate both of us are assuming a lot of things such koreans working 14 hours a day and americans being less than determined. Both of which we have no factual evidence of.
It's hard to get any evidence at all since you will need a huge sample size etc etc which we don't have.
Because usually if somebody is working 14 hours a day unsupervised (coach can't always be around) then it won't be 14 hours of work...most likely a lot coupled with a lot of slacking inbetween just like in real life.
So whenever people say koreans work 14 hours a day i take it with a pinch of salt and definitely is unbelievable.
|
Xercen, you should be counselor.
Seeing your profound knowledge of how the world works, and how every obstacle can be overcome if you only put your mind to it, why not write a blog, for all those aspiring pro-gamers? So they know how to become successful, no matter what they struggle with. I´m sure it would be appreciated, greatly. And it would be a pity, if all that deep e-sports knowledge would go unnoticed in this thread, when it could benefit so many.
|
On July 11 2013 15:38 Daswollvieh wrote:
Xercen, you should be counselor.
Seeing your profound knowledge of how the world works, and how every obstacle can be overcome if you only put your mind to it, why not write a blog, for all those aspiring pro-gamers? So they know how to become successful, no matter what they struggle with. I´m sure it would be appreciated, greatly. And it would be a pity, if all that deep e-sports knowledge would go unnoticed in this thread, when it could benefit so many.
I can only assume your post is sarcastic based on what you have previously said.
But a lot positivity goes a long way. Imo, it's much better than being negative and making excuses but hey, that's just me.
|
I give up, before I become what I oppose.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote:
You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
Am I the only one who is confused by the OP? You first state that this is not intended to argue about the WCS structure, and yet you go on and talk about regions in tournaments.
There are many factors, all of them probably already discussed in this thread, that come into play when discussing korean/foreign skill levels and why there is such an obvoius gap. The BW training infrastructure is probably the biggest advantage the Koreas have, it is also the reason why KeSPA players now almost dominate the power ranks. The training environment in Korea is just a little bit ahead of the rest of the world, because they've had the time to practice practicing during the BW days. Not so many things change when you switch from BW to SC2 I'd imagine in terms of practice routine. There really wasn't any team houses outside Korea before the launch of SC2 from what I've understood (could be totally wrong though), and it takes years to learn what things are needed for a team house to run as "efficiently" as possible.
The SC scene in total has a lot more exposure in Korea than in the rest of the world, although the gap is a lot smaller than it was before. Even this has an impact on skill-level: the more exposure, the more people want to play the game competitively. Stiff competition on the ladder is probably another great advantage that the Koreans have compared to us Europeans or Americans.
|
my take on this on how foreigners be able to achieve korean level of supremacy:
1st they need to gather motivated people willing to be the very best. People with the attitude to do EVERYTHING to be the best, with only SC2 in mind. Nearly no life people. (this is really hard for foreigners as priorities can be different or culture)
I want to think that the "Japanese work ethic" can be the best description of what is happening to korea, it sounds cliche but they work around respect, honour and discipline (like samurai's do). training there is rigourous, plus there is this inner competition inside the team house as well(choosing the superstar). Where if you are the best you need to prove it and also if your the best bet, the coach will identify that and make you the alpha male player which others will be used only for polishing your initial skill (this would not work in an all foreigner team probably because everyone wants to dominate) there are key players in korean teams that only do one thing, like practice with the star player just scenarios over and over for like 8hrs until the coach is satisfied(again hard to have foreigners do this) Coaches in korea(kespa especially) dont give a fuck about you, they care for the greater good of the team, its like military training and if you show attitude they would just say: get out of the house. This works well because koreans are very respectfull of their mentors and elders and will do as instructed.
Foreign teams then will need to copy these kinds of training regimen, start with these korean-foreigner match up to get the trainings and regimens. They need to fund the right people with already innert talent and the motivation to just have Starcraft in mind. No school, no other priorities. Just SC2 and to win.
I guess this would be possible but can we get this kinds of foreigners? The nearest were HUK and Naniwa and they put out results but they need to be putting doubled effort to attain "korean level".
|
On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote:
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser.
Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are.
When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
|
On July 11 2013 19:56 woreyour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote:
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser. Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are. When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
I don't think it's necessarily culture, it's more about upbringing i think...there are many driven individuals who go to great lengths to achieve what they want to in the West...you get very pushy parents in the West, and in a competitive environment like professional careers and business you do need a lot of discipline etc Perhaps being 'care free' is more common in the West, but its not a culture thing restricted to Asia only imo.
On July 11 2013 10:54 Xercen wrote:
1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in.
whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false.
THANK YOU! If you look at my first post, you'll realise that this was my entire argument. It is much harder for foreigners than Koreans!
|
many had say it it before, and i agree, but i would like to strong the point:
The cultural environment helps a lot!!!, i bet there are lots of kids (6-7 years old), in korea already practicing and dreaming of becoming a pro gammer, growing in a family, school, group of friends that are really supporting that... of course 99.9% of them won't succeed, but the 0.1% that does... end up being stupidly good.
i live in argentina, we had many of the best football players in the history of the sport (so does brazil, but they are even better because they actually win world cups! lol), for example Messi (we had others). And why thats happens? same as SC for korea... here everyone, i mean EVERYONE know how to play soccer, if you don't know how to play, all your friends start to think you are gay, or just plain stupid... so, even if you are not really into it, you end up learning how to play, and the competition here is at a very high point, there are football fields everywhere, always full of people playing... so is to be expected that lets say a 0,01% of them end up being good enough for the pro scene, and therefore... "Messi" who earn millions of euros kicking a ball xD
i never traveled to korea, but i bet is the same in SC for them
|
On July 11 2013 20:40 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 19:56 woreyour wrote:On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote:
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser. Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are. When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible. I don't think it's necessarily culture, it's more about upbringing i think...there are many driven individuals who go to great lengths to achieve what they want to in the West...you get very pushy parents in the West, and in a competitive environment like professional careers and business you do need a lot of discipline etc Perhaps being 'care free' is more common in the West, but its not a culture thing restricted to Asia only imo. Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:54 Xercen wrote:
1) yes it's much harder for americans than koreans. The playing ground isn't level but that's where determination comes in.
whenever you talk about foreigners going to korea it sounds like you are talking about frodo going to mordor.....like it's some impossible journey that nobody can do except jesus...which is completely false. THANK YOU! If you look at my first post, you'll realise that this was my entire argument. It is much harder for foreigners than Koreans!
Yeah I in a degree I agree, but asian parents hate gaming and think of them as waste of time so.. I can say culture because it most asian parents are pushy and in this case most coaches as we are talking about the game
I agree with that "care free attitude" and korean even if they win now they wont stop, they are too humble and they keep on practicing hard, it is like they live it.
|
The invisible handicap...
A lot of posts claimed it is a cultural phenomenon and I agree… well sort of. I would not say it’s “cultural” I would say it’s about the environment, the general conditions, the surroundings (political, cultural, financial etc.).
For example I wonder about how the differences between Korea and the rest of the world are regarding the following questions (I really have no idea):
- How long is the average SC2 Pro Gaming Career?
- How much money does an average pro player make in that time?
- Which social status is attributed to the profession pro gamer? Is it even taken seriously as a profession? And in connection with that:
- what career opportunities does a retired pro have after his gaming career is over (assuming he/she sacrificed his/her education for it, which is kind of required if you really want to be good)
My point is if being a professional gamer isn’t even seen as legitimate profession and maybe is even smiled at in some regions, if you have no real career opportunities after you stop gaming why would you put all your dedication in it, sacrifice your education and social life for it?
I really think though, that the “traditional” view of gamers is changing (in the world outside Korea) and if “Pro Gamer” is becoming a legit profession maybe with a fraction of the prestige that for example football has in Europe the “skill gap” between Korea and the rest of the world will disappear.
|
I would like to pose a question and would like you guys to provide hypothetical answers.
Firstly, Polt has been teamless since dec 2012 when he left TSL. Recently he has been sponsored by CSstorm as a 'one man clan'
Polt has also been pursuing full time education in America (reason why he left tsl)
If the Korean infrastructure in which teamhouses/coaches and training as well as access to the Korean GM ladder were overwhelming factors in determining the skill level of players then why is polt perfoming so well after 6 months away from the korean scene as well as playing part time?
You could say he had trained in a teamhouse/had coaches/had access to the korean ladder before which would be 100% true but does that mean that what he gained from the aforementioned is
1) determination to succeed and the right mindset
2) the ability to self analyse replays and contruct builds solo
3) creativity and the ability to be unpredictable
If that's true then as i have said countless times before, to become really good at sc2 then you need the 3 points above but once you have gained those 3 points (skills) then you should be self sufficient like polt. Some players might gain those 3 points via teamhouses/coaches/krladder-infrastructure or by just playing solo and working hard but once you have gained them you are self sufficient.
Because how else can you explain how a part time gamer, polt, who is a one man clan do so well vs kespa and esf code s players while studying full time and being away from teamhouses/coaches/kr ladder for 6 months.
Because people like Polt, Stephano and Naniwa exist, It kinda throws a spanner in the works saying infrastructure and working 14 hours a day is the only way to succeed. Because if that was true, those 3 would never have won as many tournaments as they have done.
Also, i remember a recent tournament. I believe homestory cup in which the commentators were making jokes about America because gosuwer didn't even spread creep. It shows there is a huge difference between NA and EU/KR. I think the korean and european mindset is very similar and that's why we see players like lucifron who don't play full time yet are very analytical and plays like a korean even without having korean infrastructure. I can only see europeans and koreans close the gap while NA lags behind because of that mindset and the difference in determination.
Another analogy. America has the best tennis infrastructure yet they failed to produce any male tennis stars. Why is that the case? Tennis players earn millions so it's not because of a lack of prize money.
If you guys could post about the polt anomaly and also the tennis/america anomaly that would be great.
btw there is a khaldor thread with pig which talks about the foreigner/korean phenomenon
Gonna watch it.
Watching the video.
1) Pig says that foreigner teams are buying established players rather than buying no names who show the right amount of determination to succeed which is the wrong approach.
2) Khaldor says american players are not willing and have issues training with other players.
3) quite funny. Pig speaks about dedicated motivated players and pig mentions snute and naniwa then khaldor casually mentions that pig picked out those players that are in korea atm. I.e incredibly dedicated.
Actually, thinking about NA EU players that have achieved notable success in the past and present, those that have done and are the most motivated/dedicated have all gone to korea.
1) IDRA 2) HUK 3) STEPHANO 4) NANIWA 5) SNUTE
it's quite funny that the best and most dedicated top tier players that won tournaments are also the ones most willing to travel to korea and train.
Good video. I thought it was well presented. Good questions and no obvious bias.
Basically they went over the stuff we already said in this thread but they also mentioned that americans were cherry picking tournaments because they felt they couldn't perform in them. Fair enough but surely gaining valuable tournament experience is useful even if you can't post your best performance? Fine if they want to skip tournaments but there aren't a huge amount of tournaments such as mlg/dreamhack going on so why cherrypick if you can attend every single one.
It seems to me that the foreigner esports teams/scene are shooting themselves in the foot rather than doing all they can to improve the scene.
For example, MLG and us esports teams might be too focused on making money and hitting streaming targets rather than trying to scout for talent they can develop. Atm they are just mainly buying big names that are already well known and established although the recent purchase of xenocider by EG is a good step in the right direction.
Also they mentioned that american/foreigner players aren't willing to practice with others and develop. Could be an ego issue/extreme competitiveness etc.
Seems to me if there are any cultural issues that are holding foreigners back it's in their home base rather than korean infrastructure being 'too good'
Naniwa basically said foreigners are lazy and scared of korean players
You heard it from the mouth of the best foreigner.
Reference = http://thealliance.gg/naniwa-interviewed-the-other-foreigners-are-just-scared-of-korean-players/
|
On July 11 2013 19:56 woreyour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote:
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser. Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are. When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible.
Sorry but where i live. There are hardworking, ambitious, determined people from all walks of life and all races.
That stereotype of asians being the best and hardworking is just a stereotype with no basis.
There are plenty of asians with low paid crappy jobs who are lazy in china/korea and japan.
Btw im english and asian so i know these things from both sides.
Also people always post about asians liking their kids to be gamers. Sorry, but most parents of all races want their kids to have jobs which don't involve playing a game everyday. I'm pretty certain this is the case in EVERY single country.
They also post about koreans having to have no life to play sc2. Sorry plenty of korean progamers have girlfriends.MC and many others. It's just a biased foreigner perception of koreans which i find troubling.
|
On July 11 2013 21:56 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 19:56 woreyour wrote:On July 09 2013 21:41 asdfou420 wrote:
As an asian, I can tell you that asians are not genetically better at ANYTHING. It's 100% the culture, asians are taught to try their hardest to be the best at whatever they do. In my ENTIRE life, I have never heard an asian say 'it's just a game', that's all it comes down to; mindset.
People don't care enough about winning in the west, it's all 'bad luck' 'better luck next time' 'aww its okay'. No, it's not okay, you lost; you're a loser. Yes I also agree this is a cultural thing, since every asian are programed to strive and trained to be the very best, ALWAYS! Its just how some asians are culturaly like Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese mostly. Examples are migrants going to say US. You dont often see lazy asians there, because their parents would kick their ass if they are. When it comes to koreans, they had the perfect mix. Loves Starcraft + asian culture/ training and discipline. No wonder they have the best players. But if a foreigner would embrace this and accept the same mindset, this would not be impossible. Sorry but where i live. There are hardworking, ambitious, determined people from all walks of life and all races. That stereotype of asians being the best and hardworking is just a stereotype with no basis. There are plenty of asians with low paid crappy jobs who are lazy in china/korea and japan. Btw im english and asian so i know these things from both sides. Also people always post about asians liking their kids to be gamers. Sorry, but most parents of all races want their kids to have jobs which don't involve playing a game everyday. I'm pretty certain this is the case in EVERY single country. They also post about koreans having to have no life to play sc2. Sorry plenty of korean progamers have girlfriends.MC and many others. It's just a biased foreigner perception of koreans which i find troubling.
Yes, but what I am talking about here is most asians are brought up to be like this. Forced to strive and disciplined. Asians, would mostly smack their children when they talk back or not follow, in the western countries how common do you see that? Children in the US even threaten their parents of child services.
Of course there would always be exeptions and lazy people, whatever race or walks of life.
Yes, no parent in the world would like to have their children be progamers. It is logical that they wanted to have "real" jobs for their children and that I agree with every single country. And yes, korean pro gamers have lives since they have social lives, have girl friends no question about that (also I did say that they dont have lives ) Korean progamers even bang them fan girls, ask Huk.
|
Foreigners aren't on the same level as Koreans because the vast majority of foreigners are incredibly lazy.
|
On July 25 2013 23:56 DarK[A] wrote:
Foreigners aren't on the same level as Koreans because the vast majority of foreigners are incredibly lazy.
Amazing stereotype, care to share any more?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
