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On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote:
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now.
Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
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On July 08 2013 21:34 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote:
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now. Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy.
I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless.
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On July 08 2013 21:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote:
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now. Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy. I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless.
That IS the point of the story. He was doomed to fail, he couldn't even throw the ring into the fireplace at the Shire, but he still tried. The central message of Lord of the Rings is walking the right path, even if you don't know if you'll succeed.
When the army attacked the Black Gate, they did it just to give Frodo a chance of success. If you only do things you know you can 100% achieve, what's even the point of living? You might as well be a chicken in a pen.
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On July 08 2013 21:50 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:45 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 21:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 21:32 NarutO wrote:
Take a look at Rock Lee. He is not a genius but a genius of hard work. You can rise to a level far superior to what we see in the foreign scene right now. Bro. Frodo might as well have just told Gandalf no. Why even bother if it takes so much effort and you'll probably fail. He should have just been a stable boy. I think you might have missed some parts of that story. He does fail in the end and only through sheer luck(or intervention from the power of good in the world, depending how to decide to read it) is the world saved. Also, if we played SC2 for the fate of the world, I am sure people would throw down hard, even if it was hopeless. That IS the point of the story. He was doomed to fail, he couldn't even throw the ring into the fireplace at the Shire, but he still tried. The central message of Lord of the Rings is walking the right path, even if you don't know if you'll succeed. When the army attacked the Black Gate, they did it just to give Frodo a chance of success. If you only do things you know you can 100% achieve, what's even the point of living? You might as well be a chicken in a pen.
All right, this whole discussion has gone a special kind of weird now that we are using the Lord of the Rings as reference. But I’ll bite. Frodo didn’t do it alone and would have failed alone. There is this whole other character, Sam, that becomes the real hero of the story. Also, there are all those other characters that help along the way as well.
And that is the point of this thread, that the practice on your own isn’t enough. Having a group of players around you that can help you practice, focus and keep at it is a critical part of winning. Right now, it is really challenging to create that environment in NA(though Root is making a stab at it). The Kespa players have a leg up when it comes to their ability to practice with great players, because the system is already in place for them. It wouldn’t a problem if WCS NA wasn’t also filled with those same Kepsa players.
That is the point of all of this, that Root is making a stab at it, but what if it takes longer to get to the level of the Kespa players and qualify for WCS NA? What if they can’t find a sponsor fast enough to justify the house? These are big risks and while they are that big, we are only going to see a small group of people take them.
P.S. Clearly I am not talking about established players on NA teams that are already very good and qualified for WCS, like Demuslim. Those players are more that capable of taking on the Kespa B-teamers. It is new players trying to make their name that are likely to be stifled by the influx of Kespa pros. Random GM player on the NA ladder that is trying to make it may not have the ability practice on that level or for the amount of time necessary.
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All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
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On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
The rhetoric of "hard work always pay" is strongly implanted nowadays. I would attribute that to the hollywood-like stories where the hero always prevails in a manicheist way.
Truth is, this whole argument looks funny if you just see it from a sociological point of view. Socio-economical vectors are vastly superior to hard work and dedication in the macro scale. And right now we are talking about trans-national socio-economical situations. That's how void this argument has become.
Edit : Typos
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On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
It's a nicely created "utopian idea" for the masses and way to many seem to actually believe in it.
No, just because you drop out of school and begin to play 14h a day you may still won't become a progamer, you need talent...
Just look at the people in your divisions especially in the a bit lower (Master) ones... Most have kinda similar amount of games but then there are some with only 20 to 40% of the average games played than all the others hanging in there with massive bonus pools because they just don't play enough... "Hard work and dedication?", Nah, they are just smarter/faster/whatever than your average dude and maybe could become truely good but aren't willing to commit/they don't like the game that much/they got better things to do/whatever..
It's the same in Dota 2... While in general the skill-levels of people with about ~1000 games are rather close, sometimes you get guys with even more games that don't even understand basic concepts while others after 500 games have no issues to play with guys with 3-4 times their experience. Yeah, they will lack some experience in certain situations or on certain heroes, but they make up for it by just having learnt extremly fast which stuff is actually really important.
"Hard work" + "Talent" lets people become pros, "hard work" + "more hard work" is a waste of time. At least if the sport/field you try to get "pro" in actually has many people that try to climb to the top.
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On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even...
While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
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On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work.
What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
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On July 08 2013 15:22 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:08 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 05:39 mikkmagro wrote:On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Exactly. those immigrants who came to the Uk wanted a better life and were determined and took that risk to come to the UK and hoped it would payoff eventually.
It's only funny how people like you don't want to hold esports to the same standards as real sports. We really have to do that even if the western infrastructure isn't that great atm because that's how we move forward. We dream big. It wasn't really a risk at all actually. They knew that they would have more and better opportunities for work outside of the country, so they moved. You can't compare having aspiring tennis pros moving from poor countries to rich countries for opportunities, to having aspiring video-game pros moving from a rich country to, if not a poorer country, one which definitely has a lot less opportunities for them. I'm a huge advocate of eSports, but everyone has to appreciate that an eSport title has its expiry date. Traditional sports do not. You also have to weigh the risk for those who are taking it; What is the possibility of success? Will success result in a career that will help me pay my bills and live with a roof above my head and a hot meal every evening? On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Life was a world champion and still attending school while winning those championships. He didn't sacrifice education for gaming success. He combined both. I meant a university education, something which is vital in this day and age. Most KeSPA Koreans don't get one as far as I know, people like Polt are an exception On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Why can't american/european progamers go to korea, learn some Korean and also get schooled there while being a progamer. You seem to take the view that going to korea is somehow going to be determental to their wellbeing and a waste of time. On the contrary, many top universities (yes i went to one) actually like their prospective students to go travelling and to visit new countries and cultures to make themselves well rounded individuals. Going to korea will be a life changing experience not just to make it as a progamer but to develop themselves as individuals. The best players are in korea so foreigners need to go there. They don't need to adopt the same training schedule if they don't want to since the training schedule should be tailored to individual needs but having 4 hours practice on the KR GM ladder is worth 10 hours practice on the NA ladder imo. I'm sorry I can't imagine any 14 year old managing to convince his parents that they should let him travel to a different continent alone to spend years trying to play video-games professionally. What you're saying in theory is possible, but extremely improbable. Yes, someone who is really adamant to become a pro player at all costs can somehow do it, but objectively, it is a very bad life decision because the risk of failure is huge, the consequences of failure dire, and the potential rewards meek. This is why I said it is actually easier for a Korean to become a pro gamer, because the risk is much less - I'm not saying they don't do sacrifices, and I'm not saying they don't have to work their ass off, but they don't need to make such a drastic life decision when they're so young. Experiencing other cultures is an asset to top universities, but moving to another country to play video-games 10 hours a day is not something that will net you a gilded throne with a cushion in a Harvard lecture hall. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Also, i went by myself on a plane when i was 11 and met my family at the airport. I think you seem to think americans are all idiots and they don't travel. I assure you that americans are more than capable to go on plane journeys by the time they are 15/16.
In europe, most europeans love travelling and they go by car/plane when they are really young. I thought it was quite normal to do things like that. I went camping with 2 friends to france when i was 13 ...3 boys alone. I was under the impression you can't travel on a plane alone without a guardian if you're under 16..I might be mistaken though. Travelling is fine, moving to another continent for years does not equate to going on a holiday for a couple of weeks. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Maybe it's different in your country or america but if you wanna be the best you have to take risks and make a sacrifice. Life should not be treated like Russian roulette. If you take a risk, it has to be a calculated risk, especially if you're young and you have your entire life ahead of you. Don't worry, everyone has to make sacrifices to succeed in life, but if you're going to take risks, you have to be cautious. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Like i said before. Naniwa has done this and he has shown he is the top foreigner alongside stephano right now with excellent dreamhack results. NaNiwa is far from being the foreigner who spent most time in Korea - his talent plays a big part in his success. I'm quite sure HuK, SaSe, SLoG and MajOr have spent more time there. However, the people who spent most time there are LastShadow and the French player cArn, and well neither of them got anywhere, despite working so hard, and risking so much. NaNiwa was a top player before he got to Korea. Korea made him one of the best, if not the best foreigners. On July 08 2013 03:26 Xercen wrote:
Not every country speaks english and you just have to learn the lingo. You can't expect everybody to speak english.
Less than half a million people in the world speak my native tongue, so don't worry, I don't expect everyone to know the language I speak  I think we are going over the same things with very different opinions as well some topics in which we have quite similar opinons. you said americans going to korea have less opportunities than koreans going to america. That's debatable for sure. I wouldn't flatly say america has more opportunities. Maybe to make a lot of money but what about cultural enrichment etc? Learning an oriental language? Those things are priceless. We have both said that you need a sacrifice. Yes, the sacrifice is huge and rewards are slim but if you don't have people who try (look at mls football -americans call it soccer) they started off with small crowds and now they r growing rapidly. In small startup sports such as sc2 esports you need people to lead by example. For example. Elky who went to korea to train in starcraft 1. He took a risk and now every sc1 fan knows about him. Also GRRRRRR is also an icon in that sense. Sure you will take several years time out from your life but my brother is a medical student right now and a 50 year old mother has been accepted into the first year to become a doctor. Taking a few years out of your life won't make you become a beggar or wino (for the americans). It just means you are delaying your education to try to accomplish a goal that you are determined to see through. Not many foreigners will take that risk for sure.Naniwa, Jinro, Stephano...those guys did take that risk and for some of them it paid off. Of course it won't pay off for everybody but since the number of foreigners in sc2 playing in korea is relatively low; We as sc2 fans will remember and respect those who went and tried. If we want sc2 and esports in general to ultimately be considered as a sport we should consider it to be a sport. Yes there isn't a lot of money in it but just because you don't get paid NFL salaries (somebody in this thread actually said they shouldnt take any risks going to korea unless they get paid NFL salaries) doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity there. I mean realistically only tournament winners will take home the cash and there aren't going to be many tournament winners overall since the same old ppl win it usually so only a few koreans will get a payout. So the vast majority of koreans and foreigners are not going to be taking home huge amounts of money. That's where determination and perserverance factors in. The vast majority of koreans aren't making a ton of money but they stick with it in code b because they are determined and want to persevere in the sport they have grown to love. Not sure about guardians on planes nowadays tbh. Rules might have changed for children. yes in real life you should take calculated risks that's right. But actors doing waiting jobs in order to make ends meet to pursue auditions and eastern europeans coming to america who dont know english trying to make it as a tennis player are taking that risk. Yes the average joe won't be taking that risk. That's why we need those progamers who have the will to succeed to take that risk. If they have the determination and the right amount of skill then it could happen. Nobody ever said the risk was small. But top streamers such as demuslim are making a lot of money from salary/stream income without posting great tournament results (one of my fav players hope he can succeed at wcs eu) so from his standpoint i can see why he doesn't wanna go to korea. But i do salute those who take that risk like naniwa. Also, yes naniwa didnt spend the most amount of time in korea. Lastshadow etc spent more time there and didn't achieve anything (gaming wise no but maybe individual enlightenment yes?!) That's the point i'm making. People talk about infrastructure but naniwa stephano amongst others proved it's creativity and skill that really allows you to succeed as a player. The infrastructure just helps you refine your builds and help you become more creative. The major factor is individual creativity and determination and skill. You wouldn't be sending an average skilled progamer off to korea. If we find another naniwa or stephano who has a high level of creativity skill and coupled with the right ambition/determination then i'm sure EGTL will notice and give that person a deal. Until then. Infrastructure and living in korea is beneficial but it's not 100% necessary. Yes but we're talking about youngsters who move to Korea, not progamers who are in their prime. NaNwa, ElkY (I don't know about GRRRRRR) could move because they were already very good and had some assurances. Look at cArn on the other hand, he went there, and once the GOM House closed down, he was fucked and couldn't practice. He tried to negotiate to get into a Korean team house, but they fell through, partly probably because he was not fluent in Korean (though he understood it somehow). He couldn't afford both rent and a good PC on which to train or something similar, and he had to find a job because he was running out of money (read his blogs about it I might have gotten some facts wrong)...he ended up unable to practice despite his huge sacrifices. This is what happens when you go to Korea to fulfill your dream of being a pro gamer, without the backing of EG, Liquid, Alliance or some pro team. When NaNiwa went to Korea, it was all provided for by his team, Quantic..he had a Swedish teammate living with him (SaSe), and he got into the StarTale house thanks to the agreement between Quantic and StarTale. He also was getting paid. That's not really taking a huge risk is it? Individual enlightenment is great, but it doesn't put a roof over your head, and food in your mouth :/ All of you people calling foreign pros lazy, should ask yourselves the question, would you do it? would you take that risk? If its so easy, why don't you? I see your point but my original argument was: - Korea has better infrastructure to help develop and nurture progamers, and thus Koreans are in general better players. It is also the reason why there are hundreds of Korean pro gamers, but only a handful of pro gamers in NA, for example. - Koreans aren't inherently perfect, and foreigners aren't inherently lazy, it all depends on circumstances, and the reality is that eSports is much more of a career option in Korea than in the US; denying this would be denying a fact. Most of you are just speculating about the determination of foreigners, and most of you are just speculating about the amount of work they put in. You have no means of calculating that. You have no means of knowing whether Koreans whine or not. Most Koreans are not as perfect as your idea is of them. I forgot who said it in an interview, I think it might have been Jinro in the early days of SC2, that Koreans would get their mates to streamcheat foreigners in tournaments because losing to a foreigner was unacceptable, or that when a Korean claims that he practiced for 12 hours a day, those 12 hours include the entire time spent in front of the PC, whether playing starcraft, or whether watching a tv series. Yes, in general Koreans work harder, but one of the reasons is because their circumstances allow them to do so. Do some foreigners whine? Could some foreigners work harder? Absolutely, but you're generalising, and you're being elitist. Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree ^_^ different opinions are healthy for a community ^_^ (although superstartran belligerent tone in a civilised discussion is not)
I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky.
If i was consistently top gm on the EU ladder and i could beat top EU players consistently in customs game and i was a lot younger then usually you would get noticed. For example, Mouzmarine is a 15/16 year old german kid who was noticed because of his age and skill. He got sponsorship that way.
You seem to be referring to anybody who wants to be a progamer should go and move to korea. There are certain minimum levels of skill that you should be at before you move to korea. For example, you should be top GM at NA or EU because if you aren't even top GM there and beating other top players you don't want to move to korea. That's pretty much an obvious point.
Normally the route for wannabe foreigner progamers would be.
Get noticed on the scene while practicing hard...owning the NA or EU ladder. Do interviews that will come due to being good on ladder. Then if you are showing promise then sponsorships will appear. But if you are talking about some guy who is rank mid masters thinking about going to korea then that's not going to happen. You need minimum levels of skill before you think of being a progamer. A bronze leaguer should never move to korea.
There is a difference between sports though. In tennis, pushy parents will bankroll their kids and try to push them towards their dream whether they show talent or not. In sc2, your parents most likely wont bankroll you because sc2 is a game and esports is just an emerging sport. So you really have to show your worth by doing ladder. Luckily starcraft 2 is much more accessible than many real sports because all you need is a computer (which most people have nowadays) and a copy of sc2 and a lot of time to spend on playing and analysing games.
Also, a lot of top foreigner players such as stephano, naniwa, demuslim etc started young..like 15 etc by playing warcraft 3 (i used to play that game also) and they got noticed that way. Then they transitioned to starcraft 2 and it turned out that stephano really was creative and was our first top performing foreigner. But all of them worked hard to get where they are from a young age.
Also you are right about koreans not being perfect. Yes it makes sense that when koreans say they practice 14 hours a day that they also include the time spent doing other stuff like watching tv shows etc. So what you are saying is that koreans aren't as hardworking as we think they are and actually their determination rather than their hard work is what makes them better than foreigners. I mean if koreans are bragging about 12 hour days in which several hours of that is just messing around and watching tv shows then it's most likely just a ploy to show off to other people or to appear hardworking to their sponsoring team. I mean if i was in a korean teamhouse then yes i would also say i play 14 hours a day because if you don't say that you will look like a lazy person. So yeah there could be huge bias there and maybe they are doing it to put the fear into foreigners.
I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly?
Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment.
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On July 09 2013 00:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work. What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own.
Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
On July 08 2013 21:15 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 20:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 10:59 Xercen wrote:On July 08 2013 10:03 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 06:06 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:30 superstartran wrote:On July 08 2013 04:23 Rhaegal wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
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That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
Foreigners have too much of a sense of entitlement to ever be competitive with Koreans, imo. The prospect of effort and sacrifice to have a shot at greatness is lost to them. They just want the paycheck. It will be the same as in BW. I think it was either Drewbie or one of the other semi-pro American players that came on TL and said the 'Korean life style wasn't a good pro gaming lifestyle' or some bullshit like that. Well guess what, I guess you probably shouldn't have chosen professional gaming as your occupation. If you really love the game that much, you'll do what it takes to become better and master it. Not whine about how you're getting stomped by someone else who has the drive and the will to do what it takes to become a better player. On July 08 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On July 08 2013 04:18 superstartran wrote:
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That's one of the reasons; another part is that they don't play for 'professional' play. They play because they love the game because you don't win shit for winning a tournament in Japan. So that leads to them actually exploring literally every aspect of the game, rather than relying on overpowered/cheesy/gimmicky/unreliable play to win tournaments. It's a reason why for a long time, you had a ton of people come to Japan for SBO and get stomped by 'low tier' characters because they never bothered to practice against them. So they are very akin to professionals because they play because they love the game so much, that they would spend their own money to fly across the fucking Ocean to play in some tournament against people they can barely speak to. Yes, that's what they had to do back in the day. That's why you see the level of play that they had back then, because they loved the game really that much. And until you see that kind of drive in 'non-Korean players' you won't see a competitive game, just a complete stomp.
So yes, they may not be branded as 'professional' because they don't get paid, but don't think that they didn't have superior advantages. They had various advantages such as fighting houses, arcades culture, geographic advantage, the 'play to improve' rather than to 'win', etc. etc.
And despite all these advantages, the rest of the world caught up because they didn't lay down and take it like a bunch of bitches. They got beat up for years on end, but they didn't accept defeat. They kept striving to improve.
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You do realize that Alliance and Na'vi are small ass organizations compared to DK, iG, and LGD right? Yes, and I don't see Alliance fielding an entire team of SC2 players that can take on top Kepsa teams in Proleague. Same with Na'vi. They have done very well in the numerous Dota 2 tournaments that they competed in. However, most of these are online and don't require these teams to move across the world. They can play in any number of prize winning cups, some that do not have Chinese teams in them. They don't need to move to Korea just to be able to practice and get better. That is the fucking point. Alliance went to G-1 and beat literally EVERY top Chinese team on their home turf, without having to practice against them. They played their own way, and they beat them easily. You name me one major SC2 tournament beyond Shoutcraft where NA players can play against each other the way Alliance played against all the EU teams for the last year or so? Because that is what made the EU teams so good, was all the EU based tournaments that only featured EU teams. You name me one NA SC2 player that puts in the level of effort that any Korean puts in. We can strawman all day. The fact of the matter is the NA scene in general just bitches at each other for being shit rather than trying to get their act together. The EU scene to a lesser extent, but they still aren't at the level of the Koreans. Fact of the matter is, in every other game I have seen the 'non dominant' country rise and challenge the supposed 'dominant' country that has all the advantages. Whether that's Counter-Strike, WC3, DotA, SF etc. etc. virtually every other competitive game I've seen it. It's only here in SC2 where I see such a massive defeatist attitude that it makes me want to fucking throw up. So what if you don't have the professional organizations backing you? It's a game, and you're both human. The playing field is virtually even. The only difference is that right now in SC2, one side has the drive and will to win, while the other side just takes it like a bitch without showing any real desire to change the status quo. Sure, and anyone can get into Harvard if they try hard enough. And if you have enough money, you can get in anyways, even if you don't try as hard. Not all playing fields are level. All of Kespa's B teamers are trying out for WCS NA. We will see if any players from NA make it through. Maybe a couple will make it through and get to the challenger division and might make a run. But it is likely that we will see a lot of Korea flags in the Liquipedia for this season. On July 08 2013 06:13 Denzil wrote:
This is a loaded question and you know it.
The logic to this is like saying
What is the invisible handicap between your local football team and Manchester United
they each have 11 players, they each kick a ball and have 1 goalie and play for 90 minutes. Therefore if they were to faceoff it should be considered a level playing field.
Manchester United have better infrastructure, they play in a higher skilled environment, they have access to better facilities, these all increase the skill of the team exponentially over their opponents.
Obviously a loose analogy but it conveys the point sufficiently. Koreans constantly practice against high skill opponents, they have numerous teamhouses, they have dedication and work ethic. It's also partly the stigma of a korean, foreigners seem to get partially scared when they face them, and as a result, go full foreigner. Maybe the fans should tell the other teams to practices harder? Do you think that would make a difference in soccer? I mean, all NFL teams practices about the same number of hours, why do the same teams end up going to the super bowl over and over? That's the fucking point. Life isn't fair, and so you're going to have to work harder, you're going to have to put more into it, you're going to have to have a certain kind of drive to compete because the odds are against you. If you love the game enough, you would work that hard because you want to be the best (because isn't that what being a 'professional athlete/gamer' is all about? striving to be the best?). All this whole 'well they have a better infrastructure' or 'well they have a different culture' blah blah blah gets thrown out the window when you signed up to become a professional SC2 player. If you signed a contract with a reputable organization such as EG or any other large Western company, you are expected to perform. Saying this and this blah blah blah is all excuses. Period. No one gives a fuck about what the other side has, if you signed up to be a professional player start acting like one rather than just bitching about what everyone else has, because it's sickening to see some of the comments from Western Pros/Semi-Pros/Amateur Fans about how they can't compete. Think of it this way. Tom Brady didn't have the best skillsets going into the NFL, didn't have the physique of a protypical NFL quarteback, and didn't even have the premium track record. However he is considered already an all time great because of his indomitable drive to be the best. That's the level of drive you need to succeed if you want to go 'professional' at anything if you are at a so called 'disadvantage.' There's plenty of other athletes out there too in various sports that don't have the physique and get by on pure mental will and hardwork. It's called you have to work twice as hard, three times as hard, sometimes four times as hard as the other guy. Welcome to the real fucking world. There are also countless of examples of amateur players/teams beating professional players/teams in various sports throughout history. So saying that it is impossible especially in a new genre such as 'E-Sports' is fucking preposterous. It's just a load of nanny wah wah bitching. Good post. I would also like to draw attention to another sporting legend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Boguesa NBA basketball player who was only 5'3 tall but his determination and skill to be a basketball player in the land of 7 foot giants came true. Same story as Tom Brady. If you read a few pages back in this thread, Illusion actually implies that since only one person can be champion, sacrificing everything is not worth it. . . Glad pro athletes don't have that same mindset. "Well, I'll probably fail. No point in giving everything I have." What do you know about the mindset of pro athletes? In fact a recent study from 2012 showed that the pressure to succeed among pro athletes leads to every second one frequently feeling burned out, every third one having sleep disorders and every fifth one having recurrent depressions. There was no relation to the amount of training or the sport practiced. Athletes with a liability to perfectionism were more likely to suffer psychologically. And two of the main reasons identified were: - short career spans - insecure job situation So, yes, it´s not about some kiddy-commercial-ideology of "striving to be the best" or "not working hard enough", it´s about the infrastructure. And that´s why Koreans in financially sound teams have a significant advantage over players who aren´t. But lets ignore harsh reality and dream of greatness against all odds...
Then how is it some people despite a poor or meager upbringing are able to get to the top of their sport? What? I thought all it took was a great infrastructure and coaching! That's all it takes right? No; once you reach a certain point, everyone is talented. The only real difference is the amount of determination and work you put in. If you look at the top athletes vs other elite athletes in their respective sport, the difference is absolutely minuscule. The only difference at that level is mentality.
And you want to know something about sports psychology? Elite athletes have confidence that borders on arrogance. If you walk in with the defeatist attitude that so many non-Korean pros do, you're gonna lose, period.
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On July 09 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:44 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work. What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own. Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players.
Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
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On July 09 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On July 09 2013 00:44 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work. What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own. Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players. Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything.
Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser.
If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it.
In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
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On July 09 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On July 09 2013 00:44 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work. What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own. Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players. Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything. Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser. If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it. In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
Well I would say that you don't have to read it if you don't want to. I would also point out that few people in this thread are professional players and the few that are have said that calling them whiners is a bit harsh, including MouzIllusion. A lot of the players who "whine", like MiniGun, are mostly expressing frustration that they can't train as hard as they would like because they have to pay the bills too. That is just reality.
Well the discussion moved beyond that and talked about setting up gaming houses and training in NA, the recruiting differences between the two countries and legal issues with signing underage players and how to get players to play full time. The discussion doesn't have to be about how it is impossible, but how players could do it and still pay the rent.
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On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky.
cArn was quite good..Coach Lee asked him to join TSL but back then he was on eSahara (who had a deal to host their players at the Project Supreme house), so he couldn't join. The problem was that even though he was as good as the B-teamers on ESF teams, they wouldn't recruit him...why would they recruit someone who didn't speak fluent Korean, when they just could go for a Korean amateur from one of the clans which feed directly into the teams? Unless Korean teams are paid to host foreigners, as was the case with all foreigners (with the exception of LastShadow, MajOr and Fenix), they won't have them.
Also most foreigners in team houses said that social interaction was rare because of the communication problem...they just laddered, and did not benefit from coaching; Sometimes other players would help through replays or some tips but you obviously cannot discuss the way Koreans do with each other.
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly?
Discipline (coaches!), and the fact that it is more of a career opportunity in Korea than in the West (explains the hundreds of pro gamers in Korea as opposed to the few real pro gamers in the West)
On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment.
Some pro gamers are good because they are talented, some are good because they practice a lot. Some are godlike because they are both. Koreans are more in a position to practice harder, and to get better practice.
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superstartran, I suppose you don´t realize the radicality and ruthlessness of your "arguments". I assume that is because you want to make an impression, while you have never actually dealt with life´s hardships yourself. If that is too much assuming on my side, I´m sorry.
But you have to realize, if all people who actually make decisions and carry responsibility used your "arguments", there would have never been an Englightenment, never been a constitutional democracy, never been reform towards equality and protection of the weak. Because as long as one guy manages, the rest has to keep working harder. It is a short-sighted, naive, and if put into practice, a disastrous view that thankfully has been overcome by great and compassionate minds. Sadly it is still promoted.
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I think that there is the possibility a foreigner can have the same potential/raw skill as a Korean, but the difference comes in the ability to harness that and improve to a truly world-class level from the strong base. This doesn't just mean mechanically, but mentally as well. Mindset, and strategy are what make the very best players, in my opinion, and that extra edge is what I think is so often lacking.
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On July 09 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On July 09 2013 00:44 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 00:37 Assirra wrote:On July 08 2013 22:13 Daswollvieh wrote:
All this "you can do anything, if you really work for it hard enough" is mind-boggling. Is this some parallel universe, where all the running shoe commercials and 50s feel good movies have come true? I don´t even... While that is true are you honestly going to say that all those pro koreans are simply better by nature? We are not talking about 10 or 20 korean that happen to have "the starcraft gene". Unless it gets proven with science that they either have the build or something with their genes that makes them exceptionally good starcraft gamers it's fair to say that most of the results come from hard work. What if he is arguing that they just have a better training environment that isn't available in NA or EU? Hard work and a great coach can make a better player than just simply practicing really hard on your own. Then you simply have to work harder. Period. That's all there is to it. Seriously, some people are at massive disadvantages in various sports and yet come through and win in the end. There are zero excuses. It's not about 'feel good' or 'dreams.' It's about the fact that if you walk in already mentally defeated you are just a bitch and that's all there is to it. And I'm tired of seeing that from established pros, let alone new and upcoming players. Superstartran, we know your opinion and there isn't really anything to discuss with you, so why don't you move along? There isn't really anything to talk about and all your doing is insulting people and calling them whiners. Its not really very productive and doesn't accomplish much of anything. Because all you do is post 'waah we can't beat Koreans.' There's no genetic difference between us as far as I know in terms of gaming productivity, so why should we impose limits onto whether or not they can participate in our tournaments? Or why should we cry foul that they beat us? There's no reason to. It's all excuses. Period. Mentality of a loser. If you call yourself a professional gamer, start acting like one rather than bitching that you're getting beat on by a Korean player that is considered second string on his team. That's all I'm saying. Sick of seeing it, sick of hearing it. In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up.
We're discussing what makes Korean players better. You've voiced your opinion, often insulting those in this thread, that it's because foreigners have a 'loser mentality'. Fair enough, some people agreed with you, some people disagreed with you. Everyone is now aware of your opinion, because you've repeated it in a dozen posts with nothing new to add. We're sick of seeing it.
Also, no one in this thread is crying or whining, no one here is a professional gamer; we're just expressing opinions. So chill out.
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On July 09 2013 02:35 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
I don't know who cAm is but if he couldn't get into a teamhouse then maybe they don't think he is that good enough of a sc2 player and isn't work the investment. An analogy. Some eastern european tennis wannabes went to america to train at the Bollettieri tennis academy. After a while of internal assessment some made it through and were allowed to stay whereas others were deemed not to be good enough to invest more time and money. The ones that were talented but had monetary issues were given partial or full sponsorships. Unfortunately, i think cAm falls into the latter bracket but big props to him for trying hard at his dream for sure. It's not the first time this has happened to somebody. Look at team slayers. Their team disbanded and some players got into other teams while others were not so fortunate. If your team or team house disbands while you are in korea then that's really a very unfortunate situation. cAm was very unlucky. cArn was quite good..Coach Lee asked him to join TSL but back then he was on eSahara (who had a deal to host their players at the Project Supreme house), so he couldn't join. The problem was that even though he was as good as the B-teamers on ESF teams, they wouldn't recruit him...why would they recruit someone who didn't speak fluent Korean, when they just could go for a Korean amateur from one of the clans which feed directly into the teams? Unless Korean teams are paid to host foreigners, as was the case with all foreigners (with the exception of LastShadow, MajOr and Fenix), they won't have them. Also most foreigners in team houses said that social interaction was rare because of the communication problem...they just laddered, and did not benefit from coaching; Sometimes other players would help through replays or some tips but you obviously cannot discuss the way Koreans do with each other. Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
I don't know what you are saying when you saying circumstances help koreans to work harder than foreigners. What circumstances exactly? Discipline (coaches!), and the fact that it is more of a career opportunity in Korea than in the West (explains the hundreds of pro gamers in Korea as opposed to the few real pro gamers in the West) Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:46 Xercen wrote:
Look at stephano. He dominated a lot of tournaments in 2012. Tournaments that koreans from teamhouses with coaches also participated in. At that time he didn't have the korean teamhouse environment nor did he have coaches. All he had was his creativity and the determination to succeed. He said his goal was to make money then use that to go to university/college. That was his goal and he will do that this year after he retires. So for those people who say you definitely need teamhouses and coaches to do well in sc2 aren't saying it 100% truthfully. Yes it helps but some players such as stephano and polt and select develop strategies and build orders just as well in a solo environment. Some pro gamers are good because they are talented, some are good because they practice a lot. Some are godlike because they are both. Koreans are more in a position to practice harder, and to get better practice.
I don't understand what your point is in the first paragraph. Why would a korean team recruit a foreigner who isn't as good as koreans players who are teamless?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CArn
"cArn was announced to have been dropped from eSahara on 11 January 2012 due to 'lack of motivation' in regards to his refusal to attend the GSL qualifiers, believing that his skill level was not sufficient to participate.[6]"
So basically cArn was kicked out of esahara because he refused to get real life experience at sc2 tournament qualifiers. Is that really the mindset of a determined progamer? I don't think anybody would believe for a minute this to be the case.
If you are going to Korea then learn Korean. Eastern europeans don't go to america to play tennis and assume everybody in America has to speak polish/russian/serbian to accomodate their needs. They realise they are going to America for a while and they need to start learning english. If you are a dedicated individual then you need to learn the lingo. I've been to other countries and learnt their lingo because it helps you to communicate. If you want to go to Korea to improve as a player then learn Korean. I wanted to go to France so i studied french and learnt the language because i wanted to communicate with the french in their native tongue. Don't expect to go to Korea and speak english. I won't call it laziness but it's a lack of planning and perhap naivety. I was based in hong kong for a while and i learnt cantonese. After a while i could communicate well with the natives.
i'll quote superstartran
"In fact, all you have to do is agree with me that there are professional athletes out there who come from poor or meager backgrounds that are successful and compete at an elite level, and your whole 'infrastructure' argument gets blown up. "
There are top sporting superstars who are from very very poor backgrounds (see brazilian footballers etc) yet they were determined and worked hard and got noticed.
Also i'll leave a nice quote for you guys that really sums up what i'm saying.
"It's not always a matter of how smart or talented you are (although it helps ^_^), sometimes it's a matter of how badly you're willing to fight for it."
btw dunno if you noticed but in the west there are plenty of progamers for example.
Fatality/thresh and other fps progamers that were esports pioneers.
I think there are hundreds of progamers playing fps and other games like wow/lol etc in the western world.
Nobody is arguing about korea being the best place to improve.
But the thing is if you willing to fight for a cause then you need to show determination. Take Naniwa for example. He uprooted and moved to korea because he loves sc2.
Take artosis and tasteless. They played sc2 and decided to move to korea and be sc2 commentators and work for gomtv. They didn't know any korean but now they do and yes they are both americans. It goes to show how a large dose or determination and hard work can do wonders. They both realise they can't live in Korea and expect others to know English. They learn korean and love it. Of course it's not for everybody. Some americans can't travel to another state let alone another country due to culture shock so if they are talented and want to come to korea and then realise it's not for them then it's fine. At least they tried.
If another american wants to improve and stays in the states that's fine as well. But as long as you stop making dumb excuses about why you aren't as good as koreans.
Also i'd like to add that WCS america isn't just for american residents. They just named it poorly. It should've been called WCS tournament qualifier 1 rather than wcs america. Countries such as china, taiwan, austrailia etc don't have any WCS qualifiers so they need to go to WCS america.
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^ Those examples do nothing but undermine your point. If anything Fatal1ty was the guy who whenever the competition got too hot, he would just retire from that game and go play another one that had fewer pro players, winning the money that was being pumped into that respective game. He was good, and at some point he was the best, but people who don't know the actual story always seem to grossly overrate his merit.
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EPT
