EPTAnother factor is that the korean diet is substantially healthier than what most foreigners would be consuming on a regular basis. It's hard enough training 10 hours a day, let alone without good nutrition.
Foreigners and their invisible handicap. - Page 4
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Another factor is that the korean diet is substantially healthier than what most foreigners would be consuming on a regular basis. It's hard enough training 10 hours a day, let alone without good nutrition. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On July 04 2013 06:33 Diddywhop wrote: You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean. This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure. I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions? It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now). If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene. As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean? I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them. There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2. Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish. It is really that simple. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
I still do. EVERY single tournament, I root for foreigners (unlike a lot of people here it seems from LR threads). + Show Spoiler + although I do love Flash  But I just cant get my hopes up anymore. Of course if somehow we started seeing a more 40/60 split than I would be much more excited. | ||
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:10 BronzeKnee wrote: There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2. Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish. It is really that simple. I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true. Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:10 BronzeKnee wrote: There is a large amount of ignorance in this thread, specifically comments about Korean culture, diet and their "genes." To highlight it, let me pose this question: Why do Americans dominate basketball? Is it our culture, our diet, or do we have basketball genes? Sounds silly now huh? Obviously it is because there is an infrastructure in place in America to develop basketball talent. Occasionally a foreign team will take games of the US team, but rarely, and never when the US sends out it's best squad. The same can be said about Koreans and SC2. Korea has the infrastructure in place to develop great SC2 players, just like America does with basketball. Other countries do not. Having access to training partners and great coaches, being in a team house when you can focus solely on SC2, living in a society where making a living off video games is more accepted, and knowing from a young age that playing video game is a life choice allow talent to flourish. It is really that simple. you mean african americans dominate basketball. white people are like foreigners in basketball sorry to say man. infrastructure is a big part of it, but so its culture. genetics has almost nothing to do with it. diet has some, but not that much. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:06 Prog455 wrote: Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans. A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples: Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice) I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long. nah you're wrong check aligulac top 40, how many foreigner (1). check top 100, how many (maybe 10). aligulac is essentially doing something very similar to ELO rating system, except using tournie wins against players to perform statistical inference on skill, as far as i'm concerned it should be the most accurate mathematical representation of skill (although i'd be interested in seeing how much of a change to lognormal distribution vs normal distribution would change things. tournament placings aren't necessarily indicative of skill. how can you be delusional, every pro gamer if they had zero latency to kr server, WOULD be playing on the KR server, there is much more competition there. take the top 200 of each region and put them in a ladder and look at the %'s. yes there would be foreigners, but the % would be small, | ||
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Gerbilkit
United States32 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true. Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction. I'm sorry but that's straight up bullshit. The entire concept of distinct "races" of people is an antiquated concept handed down from the 19th century. You are just as likely to have similar genetics to someone in Africa as you do to the white person across the street who is supposedly part of your "race". Yes some people are born with more talent at some things than others. Although talent is very hard to measure and the more it is studied the more it seems to be explained by things such as environment, upbringing, training, etc. I think it really is as simple as he said. Koreans have an infrastructure that allows them to play more games against harder competition in a more intensive and supportive environment. If American or Swedish or Canadian players started learning Korean and training in Korea with the same dedication as Korean pros they could become just as good. Genes have nothing to do with that. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: I feel like there was a thread quite like this a while back, in which people basically grappled with this same question-- Why do Koreans own us so hard at SC2 ? And I also feel considerable deja vu reading your post, because in the other thread there was someone who used the example of basketball to somehow say that genes had nothing to do with it. But you couldn't be more wrong, at least in regards to basketball-- genes do make a very significant difference when it comes to sports. Its why certain races dominate certain sports. Its not a pleasant fact to accept in this 'everyone is a potential star' Politically Correct world of ours, but its true. Im no expert, but neither are most of the people in this thread. I feel like this vehement denial of the role of Korean genes is due to insecurity at being 'inferior by nature'. I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction. lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games. black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC. ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE | ||
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Gatzu89
3 Posts
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DeathProfessor
United States1052 Posts
On July 04 2013 07:31 Zackeva wrote: It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people. That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise. I do wonder if thats a small percentage of it. We get treated like aliens who are "renting" the gamespace from the Koreans for a day. We need to take the word back, if USA players play in a USA tournament lets start allowing them to be called natives and maybe that will give them some home field advantage juju. Right now the foreigner moniker always makes us the away team and we can never feel comfortable even in our own house, if you will. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_sports . The connection between race and intelligence, however, is not as definitive. Overall, it's pointless to debate about whether Koreans are better than foreigners because of some racial component. If you want to find the answer to this, dedicate the rest of your life toward research (you still probably won't reach a conclusion). There is, however, evidence to support thinking you're inferior to one group will make it so. In summary, debating is pointless, so foreigners should adapt Korean-sounding IDs to remove the connotation that foreigners are inferior. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:04 SidianTheBard wrote: Polt goes to school full time and isn't on some amazing esf or kespa team yet he still dominates. Maybe he just uses his practice time efficiently. It has everything to do with personal motivation, practice, and the system. Polt can do what he does because he is skilled, he knows exactly how to prepare, he knows how to maximize his time, and, most importantly, he is smart. There is no huge difference between a korean kid and any foreigner kid, the difference is in the system. If America put government money into video games, it could produce talent just as great as korea, but that is what is lacking, money. Korea has the money, government money, tournaments, infrastructure, and most importantly a place among the people. While we have barcrafts in the U.S. and abroad, I would be hardpressed to find a place in America that would be good to have a teamhouse and have enough people to watch near daily lan games; LA or NY come to mind, but really those places are overcrowded and have a LOT of issues when it comes to transportation and living costs. IMO the biggest issue is the infrastructure, and to build that, foreigners would need SERIOUS money, like government amounts of money. | ||
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2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
Thus, I would hypothesize that it is three main factors that make Korean players the best: 1. Training Methods 2. High IQ (2nd highest in the world) 3. Culture - Working hard is ingrained in Korean culture, Also, sports aren't that popular due to lack of space, but PC Rooms are everywhere lol such a retarded post. please tell us o wise one what korean phenotypes make them good at video games. black people are overwhelmingly represented in pro basketball (african americans specifically) because of culture not race. you seriously going to contend that 300 years changed africans genes so much to make them the ultimate basketball machines? LOL. so stupid. you don't need to be a fuckin geneticist to realize how terrible of a conclusion this is, it has nothing to do with being PC. ah but i get it african american genes are only good at basketball and football, those same 'athletic genes' don't transfer over to swimming, hockey, and tennis. IT ALL MAKES SENSE Edit - Thought I'd throw in some propaganda for good measure: "Genes have nothing to do with it" "Anybody can do anything they set their mind to." "You can be anything you want to be!" - | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
There are over 150 professional players and coaches in Korea training full time in team houses with 8-16 fellow professionals. Many of whom have 5+ years of professional RTS experience. Plus another 20 or so professional players in Taiwan. I think there's a maximum of maybe 20 non-Korean, non-Taiwanese professional players in the entire world who can truly claim to be playing Starcraft full-time without being heavily dependent upon coaching or streaming revenue. And even then, those foreigners are divided by ladders, language barriers, are required to travel more often, produce content more often, and have an inferior training environment. I think the EG lair had maybe 6 SC2 players training in it full time long term at its peak, with usually only 3-4 players training there at a time. Its 14 Korean team houses vs 1 foreigner team house at half capacity. With those numbers its no surprise that Koreans win everything. | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:11 Kishin2 wrote: Anyone who questions whether or not race makes a difference in athletic ability should take a good long look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_sports . The connection between race and intelligence, however, is not as definitive. Overall, it's pointless to debate about whether Koreans are better than foreigners because of some racial component. If you want to find the answer to this, dedicate the rest of your life toward research (you still probably won't reach a conclusion). There is, however, evidence to support thinking you're inferior to one group will make it so. In summary, debating is pointless, so foreigners should adapt Korean-sounding IDs to remove the connotation that foreigners are inferior. It's certainly possible. If some races have advantages in certain athletic abilities, there is no reason to not believe that some races might have advantages in certain cognitive abilitites, or faster hands. | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:30 JeanLuc wrote: Im no expert, but... I think its reasonable to speculate that Korean genes have something to do with their success, as well as their infrastructure of course. To say outright that genes have nothing to do with it is an emotional rather than rational reaction. Is this a joke? So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really? We have a logical explanation,infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and go on a wild goose chase and say that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. Also North Korea wouldn't be such a dump. You must be trolling, because you got me. 10/10 | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On July 04 2013 15:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Is this a joke? So you're no expert, but saying that genes have something to do with this a rational, and not an emotional reaction? Really? We have a logical explanation, infrastructure. But instead we should discount it, and decide that genes may somehow, someway play a role? Listen man, if Korean genes are so great and so much better, then it would show in more than E-Sports. And then North Korea wouldn't be such a dump. You must be trolling, because you got me. 10/10 North Korea is irrelevant, it'd be a dump regardless of gene pool. South Koreans are very strong internationally in hand-eye accuracy sports like archery/shooting and came 5th at the last Olympics in medal count despite only getting 6 medals from athletics and swimming. There results combined with a high average IQ suggests they might have a slight genetic edge in eSports. | ||
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