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On July 18 2012 04:28 supersoft wrote:
we are not lynching veterans today. Wait at least for night 1 and see who's left by then.
Why not? As far as I know scum have only 1 KP, so a lot of veterans will be "left" by D2, specially the scummy ones that even if town scum wouldn't kill (fearing they are their buddies).
On July 18 2012 04:32 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:17 gonzaw wrote:
@Mattchew: What do you think of Katina now? Do you still think she's scum?
How do you respond to me pointing out Palmar posted the RL thing as scum? Does it change your read on Katina or Palmar?
I would have thought you'd not instantly jump on someone based on that RL thing without checking it out at first.
I don't really see you caring about the game right now either. You think Katina is scum yet you are just asking irrelevant questions and posting one-liners.
Fuck, Mattchew you act like this every game and I don't know if you do it on purpose at times.
I actually read that and meant to respond, but forgot to put it in the thread. Firstly I read the post as if it was written in postgame discussion which was a dumb assumption but I don't think it changes its meaning I don't think his alignment had anything to do with his thoughts on Random Lynching in that game. I mean ace literally said in the next post that he completely agreed with Palmar about Random lynching and Ace was town. I don't think was a trick tried by Palmar or anything like that in either game. Theres a decent chance at that point he had not even read his role PM (a. I know he has done this before and b. he didn't post in the scum qt till way later) I am trying to care about the game but there is so much E-Penis measuring going on and unexplained reads that I find all of this pretty hard to follow, and when I ask people to elaborate, I am very much ignored Right now, I believe Kurumi to be scum and nuked cause when I tried to launch a nuke it didn't go off I believe Katina, MZ and Rastaban to all be very suspicous and scummy. Hence my poking and prodding at people about them.
So what do you think of Palmar, not taking into account his Random Lynch proposal?
On July 18 2012 04:44 austinmcc wrote:
I have no name cache here, that's fine. But read this with an open mind. Seriously read point (1). Consider whether it makes sense.
(1) Sandroba's role is way, way, way too powerful
Not a single person here knows how sandroba's power works. Mafia, town, 5th party, whatever. Nobody is curious?
Nobody is thinking, jeez, in a game where mafia cannot communicate except through 2 messages per day cycle, 2 messages per night cycle, and there are NINE of them. A game where they might lynch each other, NK each other, use powers on each other. Nobody is going, holy balls, the ability to SEND FAKE MESSAGES is an incredibly, incredibly powerful role?
Think about it. The way sandroba used it, he's a cop. You ask someone to do something, if they do, they must have assumed it was from a mafia higher-up. So if they obey, they're mafia, you got this game's equivalent of a red check. Moreover, you're a cop that cannot be affected by any kind of framing power. Normal cops can be balanced out by gfs, millers, frames. A red check from a normal cop may or may not indicate scum. Saying "Hey use these 3 phrases in your next post to identify yourself" CANNOT be balanced by any mechanic at all. If they obey a message they received, when they had no idea anyone other than mafia could send messages, they must be mafia. Name a single other explanation, because when kurumi tried to give one, it sounded dumb and everyone agreed it sounded dumb.
No.
If a scum that's not CEO received his order first then sandro's message 2nd, he'd instantly figure out something is wrong, and it would be likely he'd figure out the 2nd message was bogus and not sent by his supervisor.
If the scum is the CEO then he knows it's bogus.
I think "Use these phrases to identify your partners" thing is not allowed in those mafia communications since it outs their mafia members so the hosts would censor it, meaning even if everything happened according to sandro's plan scum may just not believe that message would get by that censor.
It's not that powerful if scum are smart and can easily figure out the bogus message; at least in this case (not if sandro had made a more "subtle" message).
I don't really think his outburst here is "pushing a mafia agenda" and makes him scum alone, I'll need to read his filter first.
It seems Foo' or syllo won't get lynched though. Austin and Blazinghand are the only choices?
I don't really like any of them to lynch today.
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On July 18 2012 06:38 risk.nuke wrote:Okey good thanks, I just finnished reading up on the thread and I'd say I did better then skimming but not really a thorough readthrough either. Right now I'm feeling of a mind to join in on the austin wagon. It seems nice there.
Unfortunatly I'm going to have to go with this. Having only recently replaced in and having been out all day today, I'm just gonna vote for the person that seems the most scummy recently.
I don't like the idea of a BH lynch right now. I don't think there is enough against him, and if he does flip town we've lost a good vet.
##Vote: austinmcc
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On July 18 2012 07:35 Palmar wrote:
It makes very little sense for austinmcc to take such a controversial stance as scum. I've never played with the guy before, but when something looks good and is agreed on by town, it's generally not scum who stand up and put their necks on the line to call town out on it.
I don't agree with him, but in a game where I was expecting mafia to be awfully self-aware, his play seems straight up counterproductive. It's a very weird/dumb/ballsy thing to do as mafia.
And no, BlazingHand is town. stop voting him.
Can we kill MZ instead pls?
Since my Katina push isn't going anywhere (hey anyone notice that awesome reasoning she had for voting BH?) I will aid you in the pushing and killing of MZ
##unvote
##vote Meapak_Ziphh
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ALL ABOARD THE JUB JUB TRAIN, TODAY WE ARE LYNCHING ANOTHER GUY WHO IS SMARTER THAN US.
JUUUB JUUB!
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for emphasis
##Vote Meapak
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man why must this always be so hard -_-
Maybe the safest choice is killing layabout after all
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Okay, sorry. Had to finish up some stuff for Can't Believe, so I haven't been around an hour. Took a glance, see I'm still a focus. So here's my response based on what was flying around an hour ago. Spoilering my defense/response, because if you absolutely aren't going to believe me at this stage, then I don't want to take up room, already done that enough in a thread that's way oversized.
+ Show Spoiler +(1)Y'all be trippin'. (2) Marv is correct about this, and Bugs is slightly off: I have posted conspiracy theory crap before, in LV, as town. If you want specific posts, you can check out whatever pages bugs pointed you to. If you want choice posts, look at - This, This, This. There's a sample. I pushed that theory hard enough that I was "tinfoil hat guy" for a while. Toad called me that, a few players called me that at the start of LVI I believe. When I was confirmed wrong, I dropped it hard. Once it wasn't possible, done. If Kurumi flips green, I drop this idea here. I'll even include a pic like this one - Better than BH's pics. (3) Marv is absolutely wrong about me not doing this as scum. I would probably try and get my scumbuddies to pull ridiculous plans, because those seem to win if you pull them off, and they seem like they'd be fun. This, however, is not that. (4) I haven't played enough games for this to be legit, and it shouldn't convince anyway. But I'm throwing it out here anyway. Games where I've had a weird suspicion early on, they've been good. I found Forumite odd in LV, when other people had him really town - Here. He flipped third party assassin, so not scum. I found talismania odd in Can't Believe, where I just got shot. I don't want to own up to making the posts where I called him scum, so you can go get those yourself. He flipped scum. My two weird ass early suspicions have been correct. NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on forumite." NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on talismania." But they were both off, and I was correct, despite getting votes and being called scummy for suspecting forumite (and playing retardedly D1 in Can't Believe) (5) Sloosh brings up a good point. I'm getting attacked, by some, for not pointing out a decent enough reason for scummy Sandro to do what I say he's doing. Fair enough. All I can say is that it was for cred, that's the best scummy motive I have from Sandro. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is a good reason for me to ask him to claim. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is NOT a good reason for the rest of the day. If I don't get a role, if I don't get any support, I'd back off of it. (6) Specific to Marv. I haven't done much hunting. I've been busy with Can't Believe. Anyone here can go check my posts. Anyone here can see that I flipped mason, which means not only was I posting in thread, but I was active with my mason buddy. That means I was pulling MORE than a normal game of activity, keeping active in 2 threads for 1 game, while this game filled up like 40 pages. Note what I HAVE done this game though: - When Palmar throws out the RL idea, I've seen this before. I go grab the specific post where he discusses why he throws out RL, bring it to thread's attention. In my mind, I'm contributing by doing this, because town can stop discussing the RL, which Palmar knows is bogus, and which Palmar has told some townies in this game is bogus.
- I contribute this Sandro theory. You guys may think it's balls. You may think it's the most ridiculous thing you've heard. But I do contribute, instead of sitting on my ass. I could have given a half-assed reason for voting BH or syllogism. I wouldn't have stuck out at all, lots of players have done that. There was no reason for me, as scum, in a game where you really don't want to stick your neck out as scum (because you don't have the scumbuddy support of a normal game), to not just sheep a case on BH or syllogism. They were out there. I'm newer and less well known. Nobody would have thought twice.
I haven't scumhunted a ton. But I've presented sandro which you don't agree with, and GGQ, which some people do. While that's not too much, realize that I've basically made three contributions - the Palmar RL post, the sandro theory, a dinky post on GGQ. Even with the GGQ post being dinky, that's more than plenty of players have done this game. If you want to hunt non-scumhunters, go after someone who's done less than I have. I was busy with another game's deadline yesterday AND being a mason in that game. Still busy in that game, mason QT, and work today. I've contributed where I thought I could. Was waiting around to see Can't Believe's flip, and then wanted to stay and post that. Now that I'm done with those two things, I'm headed home. Gonna rest a bit and eat, will return in an hour and a half or so. If people are still on my jock, I'll keep responding. But you guys should knock it off with voting me.
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On July 18 2012 06:12 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:
I'd much rather off someone like GGQ or BM. yeah, since i've posted sooo much for you to get a read on if you're pushing a d1 policy lynch that's just ridiculous policy =/= alignment
hehe, you're pro.
I'd be fine with policy lynching you!
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On July 18 2012 07:48 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:12 Bill Murray wrote:On July 18 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:
I'd much rather off someone like GGQ or BM. yeah, since i've posted sooo much for you to get a read on if you're pushing a d1 policy lynch that's just ridiculous policy =/= alignment hehe, you're pro. I'd be fine with policy lynching you!
I missed you.
No really, your posts are actually a nice departure from other players' lol.
You still think sandro is scum? Thoughts on layabout?
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##Unvote
##Vote: MZ
For the TOWN!
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On July 18 2012 07:40 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:35 Palmar wrote:
It makes very little sense for austinmcc to take such a controversial stance as scum. I've never played with the guy before, but when something looks good and is agreed on by town, it's generally not scum who stand up and put their necks on the line to call town out on it.
I don't agree with him, but in a game where I was expecting mafia to be awfully self-aware, his play seems straight up counterproductive. It's a very weird/dumb/ballsy thing to do as mafia.
And no, BlazingHand is town. stop voting him.
Can we kill MZ instead pls? Since my Katina push isn't going anywhere (hey anyone notice that awesome reasoning she had for voting BH?) I will aid you in the pushing and killing of MZ ##unvote
##vote Meapak_Ziphh
Yes, I did see that. I'm wondering whether I was wrong about her....
I'm in two minds about austin right now.
It took me forever to actually extract any reads from him, and when he finally did post something it was a fairly easy case on GGQ. And from my previous read of LVI and what little I just glanced at from LV I know that he normally does much more scumhunting. And his whole stance on Sandroba is so weird - he doesn't see anything really wrong with Sandroba's behavior but yet he wants to kill him based solely on the fact that he thinks the role is overpowered and thus fake... And this response that he gave to me when I asked why he wouldn't consider waiting a few days like he wants for syllo doesn't make sense to me:
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up.
But this is the thing. He does make conspiracy theories as town - that much is true, his thing on Toad/MZ in LV was based pretty much only on Toad's usage of his role and not on behavior. And there is one big thing that makes me not see a mafia motivation - one one hand he tries to avoid attention by lurking and not posting reads, but on the other hand he makes a conspiracy theory that can only blow up in his own face? That doesn't seem like mafia to me.
So I'm going to stay with the BH lynch. The early case on him was good and so were the points wbg brought up later.
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okay time is ready for my interim findings:
§ 1 The good guys
Sadly I have to tell you that I won't be around for the lynch, so i want to make sure, i do my best to prevent you from screwing up even if i am not around to babysit the lynchprocedure. :D
This leads me to my first important point: I really hope WBG and Sandroba will be around when the lynch happens, it's like 6 hours earlier in their timezone, so it will be around midnight for them (correct me if i am wrong) when the lynch happens. I really think you guys should listen to them, reasoning: these guys know how to play this game and know how to reason their decisions well. They won't attempt to do crazy shit, because if something bad happens, we can actually blame them, unlike many others, who don't make any sense at all and their failure is neither a scum, nor a towntell.
Moreover both of them have been really active and I agree with most of their opinions so far.
§ 2 The Lynchtarget and more about the good guys
Now the more important part. I think austin is a solid lynch today.
I. At first some thoughts and additions to a good post:
On July 18 2012 06:23 wherebugsgo wrote:
1. First of all, sandro's probably the laziest scum I've ever played with. Unless he's magically become so good at playing mafia, the chance of him being scum right now is next to 0.
2. I've already shown that it is in the interest of scum and not town to seek a full roleclaim from sandro. It's also obviously in the interest of mafia to kill sandro right now, and it's in the interest of mafia to undermine sandro so that the damage is minimized.
The first thing is actually a thing that austin may not know. But it's simply true. Based on this knowledge the second point is extremely logic. if you start to wifoming around someone who claimed a role and catched scum, at some point he will look suspicious in the eyes of an unexperienced mafiaplayer.
But if you look at the facts, sandroba is, if he catched scum with kurumi, town MVP right now. Noone else catched scum so far. he's not confirmed whatsoever and I already pointed out, that setupwise there is still a possibility that sandroba is scum. But this possibility is the only thing what stands between his status as townMVP and confirmedtown-townMVP. The assumption that the very existance of this possibility leads to the conclusion that sandroba is scum, is just bullshit.
sum-up: attacking sandro rigt now is bad play.
Experience shows us that bad players =/= scum. therefor some more evidence:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=119148
II. He starts of with a post discussing general stuff. Long post, no paragraphs, many ()()() this text is the exact kind of text i've seen often times from scumplayers. They feel good if they produce a big text at the start, because they feel that they need to do something.
III. The screwup:
On July 17 2012 23:37 austinmcc wrote:Good lord you guys post too much. Read through, need to look closer at the syllo and BH stuff, but first I want to ask this: Does anyone actually know what sandroba's power is?I want sandroba to reveal his role. He seems sure that mafia is going to kill him Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:08 sandroba wrote:
Meh I think mafia is going to kill me anyway so no harm doing this.
...
The repercussions of my claim is that even after mafia kills me they can't know for certain there is no other abilities like mine in the game so all their communication is no longer safe. Have fun mafia =P
so there's no harm in revealing. 1-shot? 1 message per half cycle? 1 message per cycle? Please reveal more about your actual power, sandroba, because it's not sitting well with me right now. More than anything else in the thread, I'm curious about this.
What happened between this post and his meaningless policypost. Answer: he didn't follow the game in detail (scum is lazy but many townies get used to that bad habit, too)
Now he felt like he needs to do something.
But scumhunt as scum? Nooo: You really don't want your teammates to get lynched, so why not go for the guy who claimed and look like you're busy helping the town with this mean roleclaimer.
On July 17 2012 23:40 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 23:38 Kurumi wrote:
He is not dying, you are. So shut the hell up and lurk. Now scram. No thanks, I'd like to contribute. You're not at all curious about the magical power that out-ed you?
That's actually funny: he says, he's curious about the power. I believe him. What I don't believe is, that he's also curious about the alignment.
Woa, while I am writing this I can now see it much clearer what bothers me about his crusade against sandroba.
He doesn't say that he thinks sandroba is scum, or maybe scum. He doesn't even bring up that sandroba may be bussing kurumi.
As scum that's not interesting for him. All he knows is that roleclaiming is usually considered as scummy and he sees his chance here to appear like someone who is pressuring scummy people, but he really isn't.
Hah! I am pretty confident now, that austin is scum :-P
IV. With his following attemps (for example to accuse GGQ) to clear the blame fail in my eyes. Accusing GGQ is easy and the motiveless effort to try to justify the attack on sandroba with this dubious speculations about the immense power of sandrobas role doesn't turn me around.
§ 3 The alternatives lynch
On July 17 2012 06:47 risk.nuke wrote:
##vote kurumi
Kurumi looks pretty busted. His first response to the accusation I can't buy. Feels like a poor scum-excuse but a nonexistant townexcuse and his posts after that are aligned with what I would expect from a busted scum.
Hi risk. I already pointed out that post.
For someone who just realized that scum had been busted, this post is not happy enough.
I want to read outbursts of rampant excitement and not this: feels like... i expect this... k... lynch.
and I am also okay with MZ and BH. But it's too late for me to give you full reasoning for these guys lol sorry, need to sleep :D
zzZzZZzzz
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I'm rereading the whole thread guys, THE WHOLE THING! ^^
Let's all do it, together!
I'm up to the part where Palmar suggests a RL...riveting.
Like, it's bound for failure and he knows it too, but he suggests it anyway. Remember that? Good times.
I'm wondering where QtheZ and Walton are during all this REALLY SERIOUS lynch discussion....as into this game as their roleplaying seems to indicate, they don't seem to be doing much to "rock the boat" for scum if that was their intention, and they're certainly not participating in the discussion of this stuff.
Anyway, I digress. Back to reading.
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On July 18 2012 08:22 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm rereading the whole thread guys, THE WHOLE THING! ^^ Let's all do it, together! I'm up to the part where Palmar suggests a RL...riveting. Like, it's bound for failure and he knows it too, but he suggests it anyway. Remember that? Good times. I'm wondering where QtheZ and Walton are during all this REALLY SERIOUS lynch discussion....as into this game as their roleplaying seems to indicate, they don't seem to be doing much to "rock the boat" for scum if that was their intention, and they're certainly not participating in the discussion of this stuff. Anyway, I digress. Back to reading.
You just haven't gotten to the part where they agreed it is time to set order to the chaos... It was a really great story!
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On July 18 2012 08:25 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:22 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm rereading the whole thread guys, THE WHOLE THING! ^^ Let's all do it, together! I'm up to the part where Palmar suggests a RL...riveting. Like, it's bound for failure and he knows it too, but he suggests it anyway. Remember that? Good times. I'm wondering where QtheZ and Walton are during all this REALLY SERIOUS lynch discussion....as into this game as their roleplaying seems to indicate, they don't seem to be doing much to "rock the boat" for scum if that was their intention, and they're certainly not participating in the discussion of this stuff. Anyway, I digress. Back to reading. You just haven't gotten to the part where they agreed it is time to set order to the chaos... It was a really great story!
I'M STILL READING!!!! SPOILERS!!!!!
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On July 18 2012 08:25 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:25 Chezinu wrote:On July 18 2012 08:22 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm rereading the whole thread guys, THE WHOLE THING! ^^ Let's all do it, together! I'm up to the part where Palmar suggests a RL...riveting. Like, it's bound for failure and he knows it too, but he suggests it anyway. Remember that? Good times. I'm wondering where QtheZ and Walton are during all this REALLY SERIOUS lynch discussion....as into this game as their roleplaying seems to indicate, they don't seem to be doing much to "rock the boat" for scum if that was their intention, and they're certainly not participating in the discussion of this stuff. Anyway, I digress. Back to reading. You just haven't gotten to the part where they agreed it is time to set order to the chaos... It was a really great story! I'M STILL READING!!!! SPOILERS!!!!!
I'm sorry!! I can'tz edit you gots to ask the mods!
Oh, I do remember the whole Palmer and RL thing...
Do you remember when I was remembering earlier?
On July 17 2012 16:09 Chezinu wrote:
Hey guys, do you remember when people did not believe than a non-clue game would work? Do you remember what happened after a few non-clue games were hosted? Behavior analysis was proven to be true..
Hey guys, do you remember when people use to think a random lynch was a good idea? Do you remember what happened after a few nukes when off? Nukes were proven to be true..
Hey guys, do you remember when people use to think that Chezinu was unreadable? Do you remember what happened after people tried to analyze Chezinu? Chezinu was proven to be Chezinu..
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About austin:
I don't get why he's obsessing so much with sandro's role. I'd understand having that first suspicion if he actually believed something was wrong (like in that post I mentioned), but he spent posts and posts and posts dealing with sandro's claim and ability and it clogged up the thread too much.
I don't get why he'd do that as town, specially since his doubts of sandro's claim were dealt with by other people, he didn't need to keep cluttering things up with it.
There are little things that don't make me confident in him being scum, like some of the confidence he seems to have in his posts, and the fact that he "overposts" like this as town.
I'm not that confident in lynching him, but I think he has more chances of flipping scum than BH.
##Unvote: Foolishness
##Vote: austin
I don't see MZ being scum after skimming his filter.
Damn I don't have much time for this, this game is huge :/
After I come back from the gym I'll post more thoroughly
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
I don't like austin's defence much :/
"Specific to Marv. I haven't done much hunting. I've been busy with Can't Believe. Anyone here can go check my posts. Anyone here can see that I flipped mason, which means not only was I posting in thread, but I was active with my mason buddy. That means I was pulling MORE than a normal game of activity, keeping active in 2 threads for 1 game, while this game filled up like 40 pages."
yet active enough here to go on and on and on about sandro
:<
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On July 18 2012 08:31 gonzaw wrote:
About austin:
I don't get why he's obsessing so much with sandro's role. I'd understand having that first suspicion if he actually believed something was wrong (like in that post I mentioned), but he spent posts and posts and posts dealing with sandro's claim and ability and it clogged up the thread too much.
I don't get why he'd do that as town, specially since his doubts of sandro's claim were dealt with by other people, he didn't need to keep cluttering things up with it.
There are little things that don't make me confident in him being scum, like some of the confidence he seems to have in his posts, and the fact that he "overposts" like this as town.
I'm not that confident in lynching him, but I think he has more chances of flipping scum than BH.
##Unvote: Foolishness
##Vote: austin
I don't see MZ being scum after skimming his filter.
Damn I don't have much time for this, this game is huge :/
After I come back from the gym I'll post more thoroughly
If you complain about this small game being huge and time consuming one more time.. I'm going to tell my minions to kill you tomorrow!
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EPT
